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+--- Thread: Better engine performance (/showthread.php?tid=2472)
Better engine performance - bmartins - 04-03-2011
Hello.
I recently bought one W210 300TD from 1997 with only 117000kms and now i think that for a 3000cc engine the power could be really better...
At this moment it is stock with 177hp but i want to improve it and i need your help.
i do not want a car with 400hp(woow!!!!) as i found, i just want 250hp but i want power from the low rev.
So i thought to install a new turbo, but a VGT one because it has more power since low rev, right?
Which turbo do you advise, GT2256v, or GT2260VK thaks what i thought.
i am a newbi on this matters but i want to make a couple of things to my engine..
i keep on you to help me..
Thanks
RE: Better engine performance - johan - 04-05-2011
tune up your pump, higher boost. and place a big intercooler in front.
i dont knew how mutch this will give on your car, but it will be stronger.
RE: Better engine performance - erling66 - 04-05-2011
Hi
first you have to decide how much money you will spend? Ca 200 hp is relatively easy(tuning electronic injection pump controller) but 250hp or more will be expensive. bigger turbo, inter-cooler, pump with higher fuel capacity +++.
But the good thing, you have started with the best engine there is :o)
RE: Better engine performance - bmartins - 04-07-2011
Hello.
I think so!!!
I want around 250hp.
I will upgrade it electronically, and a bigger turbo, but i don´t know if i will install a VGT one (2256V or a 2260VK) or a normal one.
I like low mid rev higher.
Speed or high rev for me its not the problem, i do not like very much of speed...
Do you really think that i need bigger nozzles?
Here in Portugal these engines are not to tune up, they are for cabs/taxis!!!!!ehehehehe
Thanks for helping me
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-07-2011
(04-07-2011, 05:49 PM)bmartins I want around 250hp.
then no bigger nozzles are needed.
Tom
RE: Better engine performance - bmartins - 04-08-2011
Hello.
OK so bigger nozzles aren´t needed...
What about the turbo?
Thanks
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-08-2011
start with a larger element pump.
Then decide if you need/want a bigger turbo.
As you don't need/like higher revs you might not need the bigger turbo.
Tom
RE: Better engine performance - muuris - 04-08-2011
I disagree with tomnik.
Nozzle change isn't needed for even 600hp. The stock will put out "enough" fuel.
With stock 6mm elements you'll get much more fuel than you can burn with the air given by stock turbo. The pump (mechanically) isn't the limiting factor, it's the turbo. I'd put a small conventional turbo, a bit bigger than stock. Plus a remap and maybe a bit less restrictive front part of exhaust.
RE: Better engine performance - pp d - 04-08-2011
(04-08-2011, 03:40 AM)muuris I disagree with tomnik.
Read again, Tom said the same thing.
RE: Better engine performance - bmartins - 04-08-2011
Sorry for my dumb part, but as i told you previously here in Portugal these type of engines are just for taxis, and as expected taxis drives don´t upgrade them!!!
I read a lot alredy but i cannot find a picture or someone explaining which is the famous "6elements"....do you mean pistons inside the pump?
So to reach 250hp i just need a new turbo, for example 2256V or 2359v and a good remap, right?
Are these turbos dificult to install?
Which is better?
Do i need to buy another exhaust manifold?These turbos must be Welded in the place, right?
Thanks for helping me....and for the pacience!!!
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-08-2011
o.k.
let's start from the beginning:
You have 606 turbo engine, right?
In that case you have already 6.0 mm elements in your IP.
Now you have the following possibilities:
just remap the pump ECU
just put larger elements in your pump and go.
replace the electronic governor pump with one out of the 603 turbo engine and also put larger elements in.
Now you should have a very good low end torque and more powerfull running engine but not a high rev racer.
If this is not enough then replace the turbo to a bigger one.
Usually you do the welding on the turbo to keep the manifold original if your "new" turbo has a different flange.
If you can manage the vane control of a VTG go for it (and let us know how you did it), if not go for a waste gate turbo.
Tom
RE: Better engine performance - bmartins - 04-08-2011
Hello.
I prefer not to open my pump....i just want to remap it and install a 2256v or a 2359v.
If i need so, ok, but for now...i prefer not to!!
Which is these elements?
does anyone have a photo, and where does it fit into the pump?
What should i gain upgrading these element?
thanks
RE: Better engine performance - muuris - 04-08-2011
(04-08-2011, 05:09 AM)pp d Read again, Tom said the same thing.Not quite. I didn't mean I disagree with the nozzle part, but with starting out power hunting with big elements.
bmartins, as you don't know what an element looks like, you don't have the skills or equipment necessary to fit them and adjust the pump yourself. Leave that to a diesel shop.'
Why do you want such a small VNT turbo? Seems you have no experience with those, so I'd strongly recommend to get a conventional turbo first and when everything works well and you have good plans for controlling a VNT, go for it. But both those are on the small side, if you ever rev over 3000rpms..
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-09-2011
muuris:
he "only" needs 250 hp...
he doesn't like high revs...
he seems not to have the best skills and understanding...
I run a 603a with Floyd-Suomi-pump, all the rest is stock.
I am quite sure that he would be satisfied with this performance that I have now, on top he has a 606 turbo.
The pump is the easiest way for him (and the safest for the car) because he gives the pump away get things done and re install it, done.
In case he really needs more power (which I don't believe) he has to do the pump anyway.
My proposal for the sequence of upgrading is:
pump, then if necessary turbo, intercooler,...
Tom
RE: Better engine performance - JTY - 04-10-2011
(04-09-2011, 12:19 AM)tomnik muuris:
he "only" needs 250 hp...
he doesn't like high revs...
he seems not to have the best skills and understanding...
I run a 603a with Floyd-Suomi-pump, all the rest is stock.
I am quite sure that he would be satisfied with this performance that I have now, on top he has a 606 turbo.
The pump is the easiest way for him (and the safest for the car) because he gives the pump away get things done and re install it, done.
In case he really needs more power (which I don't believe) he has to do the pump anyway.
My proposal for the sequence of upgrading is:
pump, then if necessary turbo, intercooler,...
Tom
I agree, sounds good price-wise and would be hassle free upgrade path.
Main problem is the IP (pump) itself, there lies the secret key for MOAR power.
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-10-2011
why secret?
Send the pump to Pasi and get it done with Floyd elements
Get it back, install it and go.
I am quite sure that this is enough for him, even with stock turbo.
Tom
RE: Better engine performance - erling66 - 04-10-2011
If you will follow Tomniks advise, please measure your exhaust manifold pressure and temp. Your increased fueling and small stock turbine can give you problems if you rev up.
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-10-2011
(04-10-2011, 03:57 AM)erling66 If you will follow Tomniks advise, please measure your exhaust manifold pressure and temp. Your increased fueling and small stock turbine can give you problems if you rev up.
basically correct.
But as I understood from his first post he does not go full throttle, high revs for long time if at all.
I am currently running the pump only as modification in a 124 300 TDT.
Up to 150 Km/h the coolant temp does not move up.
Going full throttle the temp rises but not critical.
I have to say that I need to check my radiator because there might be some issues.
I also don't think he really needs 250 hp. The question is if this is possible at all in regards of torque without revs.
This is why I say keep it simple and test before going into extended custom tuning.
Tom
RE: Better engine performance - muuris - 04-11-2011
tomnik, got the points but even without high revs, the turbo is tiny as hell and I wouldn't push it even a bit over stock. As you said, "doesn't seem to have best understanding" -- isn't it best to make this safe then, for a bit longer overtakings, also? There's a reason the boost is limited at high revs even in the mild stock engine.
Sure, you'll get 200hp with stock turbo, but with increased risk of cooking the engine. But you won't get 250hp with it.
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-12-2011
I run stock turbo on my 603 with 7.5mm pump and it might be enough for him, I guess.
I don't see the risk of cooking the engine as he is not a racer boy.
My concern is that a turbo upgrade gets too complicated for him.
I just see the good cost-power relation of doing just the pump and it is the option that can be done without special skills (changing the pump).
Tom
RE: Better engine performance - bmartins - 04-13-2011
Hello.
Thank you all for helping me...
Here in Portugal a company with just a remap can get 212HP from my engine with everything stock.
As you noticed i am not an expert in modifications....
For sure that i am not a racer boy....i run highway always between 140 and 160km/h but i love power when i am climbing...
I have been looking for images and posts and i finally discovered a image for the elements....
In Bosch Car service a technician told me that i was out of my mind to change my original 6.0mm element to a 7.0mm one. He also told me that the 6.0mm was enough for everything(HERE IN PORTUGAL THESE ENGINES ARE JUST FOR TAXIS NOT FOR PERFORMANCES)that i which to!!!! And the fuel consumption was very very much!!!
Do you guys think so???
In my opinion i tought that a VGT turbo was best for what i want...better low revs from iddle!!
Does the right element is 7.0mm? How much does it cost? How much time to change it in a Bosch shop?
Does anyone know a shop where i can buy a larger intercooler without change my originals tubes?Make a larger one based on the original but more higher, do you understand what i want.
In your opinion which should be the best and the easier turbo to install?
Thanks one more time for all....
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-13-2011
your Bosch guy is talking bull shit.
Sorry to be straight forward but larger elements are not comparable with chip tuning with keeping the stock 6mm elements but just increasing the duration of injection. This is a point that is not clear for the Bosch guy you talked to.
And on top you keep up with the idea of running a VTG...
Up to now nobody here got a VTG running with an electronic controller and here are some very good people, way better than your Bosch guy ever can dream of.
Take your car to your Bosch shop and buy as much as you can and get the stuff mounted to your car.
Sorry again for the clear words.
Tom
(04-13-2011, 12:58 PM)bmartins Hello.
Thank you all for helping me...
Here in Portugal a company with just a remap can get 212HP from my engine with everything stock.
As you noticed i am not an expert in modifications....
For sure that i am not a racer boy....i run highway always between 140 and 160km/h but i love power when i am climbing...
I have been looking for images and posts and i finally discovered a image for the elements....
In Bosch Car service a technician told me that i was out of my mind to change my original 6.0mm element to a 7.0mm one. He also told me that the 6.0mm was enough for everything(HERE IN PORTUGAL THESE ENGINES ARE JUST FOR TAXIS NOT FOR PERFORMANCES)that i which to!!!! And the fuel consumption was very very much!!!
Do you guys think so???
In my opinion i tought that a VGT turbo was best for what i want...better low revs from iddle!!
Does the right element is 7.0mm? How much does it cost? How much time to change it in a Bosch shop?
Does anyone know a shop where i can buy a larger intercooler without change my originals tubes?Make a larger one based on the original but more higher, do you understand what i want.
In your opinion which should be the best and the easier turbo to install?
Thanks one more time for all....
RE: Better engine performance - bmartins - 04-13-2011
ok no problem....i like people being straight!!!
In reality what should i gain upgrading my pump element from 6.mm to 7.0mm?
It has just one element?
Fuel consumption is much higher?
Do you know the part number of the pieces i need to upgrade it?
Do i need to make any other thing, or its enough?
Thanks...no problem with speaking!!!
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-13-2011
the part number of one possible larger element is "Floyd M75", which has 7.5mm diameter, the fuel consumption (on my car, W124 300 TDT without any further mods up to now) is about 20% less, now about 7-8 l/100 Km.
You need as many elements as you have cylinders in your engine.
Tom
RE: Better engine performance - devton - 04-14-2011
In my opinion i tought that a VGT turbo was best for what i want...better low revs from iddle!!
I agree with Tomnik, You have to do these:
1: Intercooler
2: IP modify
The original kkk turbo can be good for 250hp
3:turbo change
I have OM602 with VE pump modified, with kkk turbo from OM606 and it can 170 HP on wheels by G-tech measured. The boost is 1 bar.
And it starts at 2000 rev. And the low rev- hight power don't good to transmission. The 24 valves engine "loves" higher rev
RE: Better engine performance - muuris - 04-14-2011
bmartins, to be straight.. don't plan too much on what parts to change until you know how the engine works. Getting a VGT/VNT turbo to work nicely requires lots of DIY plus time, or a lot more money for having someone else do the job. As you don't need much power and are a newbie, stick with normal turbos. The chip would be best for you, as there's nothing for you to do wrong. The pump change can go wrong.
(04-14-2011, 03:17 AM)devton I have OM602 with VE pump modified
You've changed from M to VE pump, or are you talking about DI 290td engine?
ps. Tom, I had GT37v electrically controlled before I changed to He351V
RE: Better engine performance - devton - 04-15-2011
(04-14-2011, 03:00 PM)muuris You've changed from M to VE pump, or are you talking about DI 290td engine?
Yes, i 've changed it, my enigine is IDI,not DI. (Om602.910)
RE: Better engine performance - erling66 - 04-17-2011
Bmartins: go for the 212hp remap. If you want more power than that later, you should start reading books about Diesel engines to get the necessary understanding about what is going on inside the engine. Then you will be ready for some serious engine modifications
Tomnik: your testing with bigger elements in a otherwise stock TD engine is very interesting. Can you please give us some more details? Do you have more power all the way from idle and up? What about smoke? Do you measure EGT? Would you say there are only positive effects or are there something negative too?
RE: Better engine performance - tomnik - 04-17-2011
(04-17-2011, 03:52 AM)erling66 Tomnik: your testing with bigger elements in a otherwise stock TD engine is very interesting. Can you please give us some more details? Do you have more power all the way from idle and up? What about smoke? Do you measure EGT? Would you say there are only positive effects or are there something negative too?
the only negative thing is once you have more power you get used to it and you want more...
EGT not yet...
What is incredible is the off the line power, absolutely without turbo lag.
I took a guy (also 300 TDT driver) for a test drive yesterday and he was shocked.
I try to keep it for less smoke than stock but with the external full load screw I alter this quite often also in combination with ALDA.
I can feel the stock turbo/exhaust as the bottleneck at the upper range of rpm, still stronger than stock but less stronger than at lower range.
The tranny need some attention now, oil+filter change and K1 upgrade and pressure increase.
Shifting is done with the foot now.
Due to nature of these type of governor I can produce a black cloud when punching the pedal. But depressing the pedal within let's say 2 seconds there is no visible smoke during daytime.
The current setting is kind of a little too much but I can drive it smoke less with taking some care of my foot.
My goal was to get an impression what is possible with pump only.
After the tranny service (and cooling system) is done I'll join the dyno.
Tom
RE: Better engine performance - bmartins - 04-24-2011
Hello.
I decided that for now i am going just for a remap(+/-200hp).
I will read more articles...and make a a conclusion about everything...
Let´s see..
Thanks