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+--- Thread: Water/methanol injection (/showthread.php?tid=3299)
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Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-25-2012
Alright so I have pretty much come to the conclusion that water/methanol injection is going to be installed in the relatively soon future. I have been reading about other people's setups on some of the other threads and thought I would start my own to document mine and ask questions and what not.
So my questions are:
1. Who has water/methanol injection?
2. How well does it work/what do you think about it?
3. Where did you get your stuff/how much can I expect to spend?
4. I will undoubtedly ask more questions so thanks in advance for your patience!
RE: Water/methanol injection - larsalan - 01-25-2012
Did it before. Can get parts from 'coolingmist", "snow performance", "devil's own", ebay, amazon. I had just one injection nozzle that said it was 3gpm. A switch to turn it on at like 7-8psi boost. I bet you can rig it all for under $200
It was fun and the methanol does act just like extra fuel, you can feel it turning on. I dunno if I would ever bother with it again. Kinda fun to do though.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-26-2012
Awesome thanks!! Im thinking about possibly having two nozzles, a 1gph activated about 3 or 4 psi, and an additional 2gph nozzle activated somewhere baround 7 or 8psi. I figure that way I can have a small amount while driving normally, and then when I need some power the other nozzle will kick in when needed. Im also thinking about whether or not I should go water/methanol or just water. From some of what I have read it seems like one of the main reasons methanol is mixed in is just to prevent freezing in colder climates/temperatures, although I know it does act like an additional fuel as well.
Also, I have ~$150 for parts left over from my vegetable oil conversion undergraduate research project grant that I can get reimbursed for if I say this is part of the project (Im telling them it is to help clean the engine when running wvo, not tooo far fetched), so cost is not that great of an issue since Im sure the grant money will cover a majority of it
RE: Water/methanol injection - larsalan - 01-26-2012
I think 3-4 psi is a bit low pressure. I though 7-8 is the starting and then if you wanna go a second stage do it even higher like 10-11. That pressurized air can be so hot it keeps the water as vapor/steam.
I had used just water often or a really low mix of meth in there. Especially to keep it from freezing temps. But the meth is also extra fuel and that is the only way you'll feel power from the system. If it's pure water you wont be able to feel a thing.
Also if you had a "small amount while driving" just always running the water you'd need like a 50gal tank
when the nozzle says 2gpm that's what it means. @100psi it will blow 2 gallons every minute.It's a fun project but there are reasons that it is also kinda a bunch of trouble.
also the water is free, here at least. I dunno how much they want for that stuff in california
but that methanol can get pricey in a hurry
RE: Water/methanol injection - Simpler=Better - 01-26-2012
I ran 5gph (5x1 gph, port injected) Want to buy my old converted manifold?
McMaster Carr has Spraying nozzles for $7 each, way less than the $30 coolingmist nozzles.
RE: Water/methanol injection - larsalan - 01-26-2012
That was a wicked looking setup. And all the work is done already.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-26-2012
(01-26-2012, 08:36 AM)larsalan I had used just water often or a really low mix of meth in there. Especially to keep it from freezing temps. But the meth is also extra fuel and that is the only way you'll feel power from the system. If it's pure water you wont be able to feel a thing.
Also if you had a "small amount while driving" just always running the water you'd need like a 50gal tank
also the water is free, here at least. I dunno how much they want for that stuff in california
Water injection cools the charge air allowing higher boost pressures, if my turbo could hand it that is
2 gallons per minute seems like A LOT!!! At the most I am only planning on running 3 or maybe 4 gallons an hour.
As for the methanol, my friend's brother in law is building a 500 gallon biodiesel processor so he can fuel his construction fleet for less than $2000 a day, so I can probably get it pretty cheap from him since he's gonna be buying it in huge quantities
(01-26-2012, 09:07 AM)Simpler=Better I ran 5gph (5x1 gph, port injected) Want to buy my old converted manifold?
McMaster Carr has Spraying nozzles for $7 each, way less than the $30 coolingmist nozzles.
Is there any advantage of a port injected setup vs. one that just injects immediately after the turbo? Also it seems like your system is just a single stage, I am trying to go for a two stage setup, so if I were to go that route I would need a way to adjust the pressure of the pump at the different stages instead of just having another valve for a second nozzle open up
RE: Water/methanol injection - larsalan - 01-26-2012
oh yeah, they are gph. I am a retard. anyway it still ends up being a lot in practice.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-26-2012
Hahaha its cool, and I think if I have about 2.5 gallons each of water and methanol it would be good, I dont mind having to fill up every day or two. Any larger and I will need to beef up the rear suspension some because I already have a 19 gallon wvo tank back there and the rear end sags when its full, and a lot when both tanks are full
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-26-2012
Okay so here's what I am thinking:
this pump
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/p176/AIS-250-PSI-Water-Methanol-Injection-Pump-With-Install-Kit/product_info.html
these nozzles (possibly a 1-2gph and a 3gph)
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Water-Injection-Nozzle/c28/index.html
these switches (not sure what pressures Im gonna set them at for multi-stage)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-HOBBS-PRESSURE-SWITCH-4-PSI-NORMALLY-OPEN-/180691722146?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a1210dfa2
and possibly these valves, or something similar since the seller has a lot
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-SS-12V-DC-Solenoid-Valve-STAINLESS-VITON-S20V-/290530101009?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a4f18711
Obviously other than hose and miscellaneous fittings, tanks, and swithces, is there anything else I would need?
RE: Water/methanol injection - larsalan - 01-26-2012
Look at the check valves at alchohlinjectionsystems or whatever. I dont know why one would require electricity. The one I was using just popped open under 22psi in one direction only. Then there is no way liquid can be vacuumed through it unintentionally.
other than that looks cool. That is the same nozzle I used just one 3gph
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-26-2012
The reasoning behind the electronic valve/s is for the two stages. You're right the check valve will work for the lower volume nozzle and I should do that, but since Im only gonna have one pump I think a valve will be necessary for the second nozzle
RE: Water/methanol injection - larsalan - 01-26-2012
i dig
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-27-2012
I can't decide if a check valve should be used on the line the valve goes to or not, since I know its purpose is to prevent vacuum from pulling sucking water into the manifold, but vacuum is only present for about a second before boost pressure builds up soo is it really necessary?
RE: Water/methanol injection - dust - 01-27-2012
Stages
You can setup as many stages as you want, but each will cost you a solenoid, hobbs switch, vacuum hose and tee, and wiring. You might want to look into a progressive controller. You can hook it up to a 0-5v signal, or to a boost/vacuum source. For a diesel, the water will lower your EGTs, and the methanol will increase your EGTs (fuel), but cool your charge air. The mix will retard or advance combustion, depending on the mix, and 13% methanol is said to be the breakeven point.
You can find kits from $150 up used. For the $50 per stage you are looking at, you can buy a used progressive controller that will ramp up spray based on your settings and get what you want for less than the 2 stages you are looking at. If you use that pump, and want to use a solenoid, then you need to use a solenoid that can handle the pressure. That pump is set at 200psi, and that can cause problems with some solenoids not having the power to overcome the pressure. Check valves from AEM are $20ish, and Devil’s Own are $30. Nothing to wire up, nothing to short out, and disassembly and cleaning are simple. Nozzles, if you are going to buy those nozzles, buy them from the company that designed them, not the company that copied them
Nozzles
nozzle holder is a few cents cheaper as well, and actually a purpose made design. You can find nozzles for cheaper if you want, and even cheaper if you want inside mount.
Pump is also cheaper at Devil’s Own than at AIS
Pump
Then you just need tubing, wiring and a tank.
Look around for a used kit, see what you get, and see if it might be a better deal. I bought a used kit for $200 5 years ago, and everything still works.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-27-2012
Wow I hadn't checked devil's own, I think I may end up going with their pump and nozzles since it seems like their pumps are more reasonably priced. Now should I go for 150psi or 250 psi for the pump, and how much will it affect the amount of amount of wather/methanol injected? Also, it seems like they have the best solenoid valve out there so I'll probably be ordering one from them as well.
The reason I am not really interested in a progressive controller setup is because I am always leary of most things digital, I mean if I had enough money I would probably buy a fully mechanical wristwatch if they weren't so expensive haha
RE: Water/methanol injection - dust - 01-27-2012
Not going to matter much for you. More pressure will give you more atomization. But, you will have to use a better solenoid if you want to use the pressure. That said, the 250 psi pump can be turned down to 150 psi, and you won't have to use the bigger solenoids. The newer pump also has what most Water meth company owners say is a lower return rate. It can also recirculate, meaning that if you are not flowing alot, it will not switch on and off, maintaining pressure better. I have one, and will install it when it gets warmer here to replace the older pump. Either will work for you though. Even the one's at Academy and the likes would work with a modifcation to the pressure relief valve. The newer 250 psi pump is a little bigger than the 150psi pump. You need to decide what you are going to use for tubing before you buy the pump, because the 250 psi has the option for 1/4 hose and 3/8 NPT fittings.
The controller is pretty simple. I put a master override on mine so I can turn it on and off whenever. Remember failure points. 1 controller takes the place of 2 solenoids and 2 hobbs switches.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-27-2012
I'll have to put more thought into it in the morning when I am not so tired haha
RE: Water/methanol injection - dust - 01-27-2012
I've made most of the mistakes there are to make in water/meth, feel free to PM me or post up. More than willing to help.
RE: Water/methanol injection - Simpler=Better - 01-27-2012
Port injection looks cooler :p I was concerned about over-fueling my first three cylinders and neglecting #4 & #5, so I went port injection. If your upstream sprayer is as early as possible I'd think that you should be okay. Don't use the EGR port though.
If you wan to hop on a bandwagon and file this away as an alternative fuel project, you can always spray a water / ethanol mix
That valve is only rated to 110psi-you might want to get the 100psi pump instead of the 250psi pump. Also, I have seen these pumps on garden-tractor-towable agricultural spray setups. no idea where to buy them though, just a thought that it might be cheaper to source.
Other than that, it's looking like it just might work. Any reason for a multi stage? Could you test one size and then swap the nozzle out for another test later?
The stock overboost sensor grounds itself at ~16psu (1.1bar) I think I might use that as a safety switch on my setup, could that work for you?
In other news, why is your ALDA still installed? And what pressure does the overboost sensor trip at? Could that be used?
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-27-2012
(01-27-2012, 05:13 AM)dust I've made most of the mistakes there are to make in water/meth, feel free to PM me or post up. More than willing to help.
Thanks I really appreciate it!
(01-27-2012, 10:14 AM)Simpler=Better Port injection looks cooler :p I was concerned about over-fueling my first three cylinders and neglecting #4 & #5, so I went port injection. If your upstream sprayer is as early as possible I'd think that you should be okay. Don't use the EGR port though.
If you wan to hop on a bandwagon and file this away as an alternative fuel project, you can always spray a water / ethanol mix
That valve is only rated to 110psi-you might want to get the 100psi pump instead of the 250psi pump. Also, I have seen these pumps on garden-tractor-towable agricultural spray setups. no idea where to buy them though, just a thought that it might be cheaper to source.
Other than that, it's looking like it just might work. Any reason for a multi stage? Could you test one size and then swap the nozzle out for another test later?
The stock overboost sensor grounds itself at ~16psu (1.1bar) I think I might use that as a safety switch on my setup, could that work for you?
In other news, why is your ALDA still installed? And what pressure does the overboost sensor trip at? Could that be used?
-As for port injection, I may do that at some point, right now I just want to get all of my stuff ordered haha.
-As for the valveand pump, I will probably be getting the 250psi one if I go with the larger pump
-As for the nozzles, I will undoubtedly be trying multiple sizes activated at different boost levels to see what gives the best performance
-What do I do about removing the ALDA, and how great is the difference after it is removed?
RE: Water/methanol injection - larsalan - 01-27-2012
I took alda of both of my 617s. And both were a b!tch. Had to make a big wrench cause I didn't have the right one. Something big like 1 1/16 or even a bit bigger. Then needed to put a small bar in where the boost hose is banjoed in there.
Need to turn that alda lefty and hold that big wrench righty.
They were both stubborn after 25+ yrs in place. ymmv. There seems to be no sense in limiting the fuel that's delivered if you're searching for performance.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-27-2012
So hold the nut underneath and then screw the alda out? Sounds simple enough, is there anything that needs to be done afterwards, like is there a hole that need covering or something?
RE: Water/methanol injection - larsalan - 01-27-2012
that is all. Mine were in there pretty tough. Where I said I put a small bar into where the banjo bolt goes...
I had pushed on that bar pretty damn hard, enough that I'm sure it was damaging the threads for that banjo bolt.
Other people have suggested using some huge channel locks to grab onto the alda. And I've tried that without success many times.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 01-28-2012
Awesome I may try this tomorrow, I'll see if I have a wrench big enough and if I do I'll give it a shot. As for removing the alda I always use extreme amounts of leverage, when possible, to my advantage haha
RE: Water/methanol injection - Simpler=Better - 02-03-2012
With a little bit of time you can remove the ALDA nut too-it will rattle around and drive you crazy otherwise. Just pip the snap-ring off the ALDA spring, remove the cover, and use a 8mm allen to remove & replace the shaft guide.
From my build:
![[Image: imga0019b.jpg]](http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/2790/imga0019b.jpg)
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 02-03-2012
I still have to find a wrench the correct size, I have been busy with school, work, and our solar collector/concentrator project
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 02-14-2012
Now I can't decide if I should go the w/m injection route or air/water intercooler
Any thoughts on doing both
, or would it not work out as well?
RE: Water/methanol injection - dust - 02-14-2012
Both, the water meth sprayed before the W/A IC should remove some heat. I don't know if you would need both though.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 02-14-2012
My concern about that is that the water meth might condense in the IC, although this is just speculation. So many decisions to make
RE: Water/methanol injection - dust - 02-14-2012
It would take alot of water to get condensation, but then you would just have another medium to transfer heat to the KC.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 02-14-2012
Looks like both it is then haha, just sent out money for a w115 intake manifold to accomodate the intercooler
RE: Water/methanol injection - Captain America - 02-20-2012
Use channel locks or a crescent wrench for the ALDA removal... Not like your going to use that thing again anyway
Overboost switch cuts fuel hard @ 16 PSI
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 02-20-2012
Overboost switch has long been bypassed, before I even got the car haha
RE: Water/methanol injection - Captain America - 02-20-2012
It was mentioned that you could use it for the second stage of W/M injection
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 02-20-2012
16 psi is a little high, I was thinking second stage more around 10 or so?
RE: Water/methanol injection - dust - 02-21-2012
Found(remembered) two progressive kits for $200ish
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=293444&highlight=devils
http://longisland.craigslist.org/pts/2818976769.html
This one looks nice with the new pump and very programmable controller
http://kansascity.craigslist.org/pts/2847003619.html
I would buy this one and sell of what I didn't need. Seriously thinking about it.
Single stage for $150
http://spacecoast.craigslist.org/pts/2849460853.html
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 03-06-2012
Does this seem like a good deal?? These controllers normally go for a lot more I think. If I bid what would a good max be?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-injection-methanol-injection-kit-/130658197854?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6bd5e15e
RE: Water/methanol injection - dust - 03-06-2012
Honestly, I wouldn't pay that much. The pump is OLD, it's a 60 PSI pump. You could mod it and get it up higher, but as it is, you will not get much progression at all. If you want to keep the pump and resell the controller, then it might be worth it to you. Snow/Labonte/AIS controllers have always been too big for my liking. For on/off the pump would be fine, and you could use the controller if you wanted to, just know that you won't be getting much use out of it.
But, to encourage you, I did find this
http://www.horsepowerjunkies.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116555
http://www.jegs.com/i/Snow+Performance/860/VC-25/10002/-1
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 03-06-2012
I think I'm just gonna order a pump from devil's own in a little bit, along with a couple nozzles and a check valve. Then I'll worry about switches and what not
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 03-07-2012
What is this whole nozzle holder thing I keep seeing?? I'm trying to get a list of stuff I need for this so I can order it all (excluding tank and hose for now) so lets see if I have everything needed:
pump
nozzle
check valve
nozzle holder?
Anything else? I have switches and stuff and I can get hose locally I'm sure, for now I just want to go for a single stage setup to keep it as simple as possible, since I just want to get it going, along with my w115 intake, and then worry about multiple stages afterwards
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 03-13-2012
Just ordered pump, nozzle, and check valve from devil's own. As soon as it appears in my pay-pal I'm gonna print a copy of the transaction, and then submit it tomorrow to be reimbursed, since it is part of a research project lol
RE: Water/methanol injection - Simpler=Better - 03-13-2012
Good! If you don't have a pyrometer and an intake air temperature gauge, I would highly recommend getting a set. You can get "lab style" pyrometers for ~$60 and for the intake you can get an overhead console from a 90's explorer-they have outside air temp and the sensor has NPT threads on it.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 03-14-2012
I have a pyrometer I intend to install when I put my non-egr manifolds in, whenever that may be. As for intake air temp, would that be before or after the turbo?
RE: Water/methanol injection - Simpler=Better - 03-14-2012
Post-turbo, post methanol. It would be interesting to see if it actually helps with the air temps, or if it quenches the combustion for lower temps.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 03-14-2012
Hmmm that's pretty interesting, I think there may be an extra hole that needs filling on my w115 manifold it can probably be installed in, I'll have to look into it
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 03-20-2012
Got my pump, nozzle, and check valve in today, I guess now I need to find some high pressure line.
RE: Water/methanol injection - Simpler=Better - 03-21-2012
McMaster-Carr!!! Or brake lines.
RE: Water/methanol injection - sassparilla_kid - 03-21-2012
Oooooh, I'll have to check it out. The connectors on the pump and check valve are kinda weird, it looks like you just shove the line into the holes and it just grips them with pressure or something
RE: Water/methanol injection - Simpler=Better - 03-21-2012
Yeah they're easy connect/ disconnect lines. I used some kind of nylon blend from McMaster. You can sort their lines by transparency, chemical resistance, pressure, and heat.