+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Drivetrain (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=9)
+--- Thread: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap (/showthread.php?tid=407)
amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - JB3 - 06-06-2009
discovered something today. The 4-speed will work behind the 617 turbo engine WITHOUT a pilot bearing. How do I know this? When I put the tranny in 20-30 thousand miles ago, I forgot to put one it.
Amazingly, ive towed trailers, been across the rockies a couple times, been across the country a couple of times with no problems and no noise.
the clutch looks brand new, the pressure plate has a tiny bit of wear, the throwout bearing looks great. There is no visible wear or problems outside the trans.
I am having problems shifting, which as first I thought was hydraulic related, and after eliminating that, decided to take a look at the clutch. The transmission fluid was clean still, and it seems to shift just fine on a bench. The problem looks like it might still be the slave cylinder leaking into the bell housing, though I am still not completely sure what the issue is. The slave boot was wet. I have what feels like a loss of travel. The tranny needs some new seals as well, but it seems to be in good health after this mistake.
Whoops. The lesson here is do not do transmission work a 1 in the morning after a full day of work.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - winmutt - 06-06-2009
Lol thats silly as my daughter would say. Clutch is not cheap to trouble shoot at all. Start with the slave and work your way up. I had a problem I couldint find. Turned out to be that my clutch hard lnes with the rubber hose middle would seep, but only with the clutch pedal down. Drove me bonkers. I went through like 3 sets of cylinder.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - JB3 - 06-06-2009
hmmm, I should probably replace that line as well. I cut that rubber part and mated it with a line from another 240. I used a 3000 psi brass fitting to put it back together, but the hose might be leaking as well. Its hard to tell with the liberal coating of oil everything has down there. I might as well just do new everything after all this.
Im getting whacked with it seems like all kinds of nightmares on the car at the same time, brakes, vacuum pump pissing oil out the ignition for gods sake, clutch, wheel bearings.
The great part is that no single current issue is getting resolved without an epic battle of will. For instance, the torch and welder had to come out 4 times just to replace the rotors. I should probably just set it on fire. If the damn thing rolls after this, I promise a once a week wash and wax.
My boss just keeps saying "tiger tank" every time the car fails to leave the shop that night.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - winmutt - 06-07-2009
Ah yes, the joys of benz ownership. Atleast your PO didnt weld the balljoints into place :/
PS. lack of pilot pearing should have added increased wear on your input shaft.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - JB3 - 06-10-2009
well, its the same problem you had. The old rubber connector is bulging out when I depress the clutch and decreasing actual clutch travel. After you mentioned it, I got someone to help me and watched it do it.
Good tip, thanks. I am replacing that component with some braided stainless flex brake line, and probably the whole line underneath as well. Looks like I have a complete hydraulic clutch spare kit now too.
I probably would have lost my mind if the slave cylinder did not solve the problem. 30 year old rubber, time for a change. Also taking the opportunity to beef up the trans mount bracket and tweak the shifting levers slightly. One of them has been riding on the edge of the tranny a tiny bit and has worn a small groove.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - winmutt - 06-10-2009
Are you using the 240d cross member with the heavy duty auto trans mount?
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - JB3 - 06-10-2009
Actually, I bought a new 4 speed 240 rubber mount back at the swap and took the automatic trans cross member and reversed it. Lined right up with two bolt holes and the rubber mount bolts.
What I want to do is add a couple of ears to it and get two more bolts in. Its been strong this way for a long time, its just something Ive meant to do since I put it in and just never got it done cause Im a lazy SOB.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - winmutt - 06-10-2009
Almost. The trans is offset in the tunnel there. By turning it around you have reversed the offset *2. Find a auto 240d at the yard they are a dime a dozen.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - JB3 - 06-11-2009
define *2. Are you talking about the angle of the mounting surface?
How about the manual 240 trans mount? I also still have that.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - winmutt - 06-11-2009
(06-11-2009, 11:49 AM)dropnosky define *2. Are you talking about the angle of the mounting surface?
How about the manual 240 trans mount? I also still have that.
The 240D auto cross piece is the OE for the 300D manual. because the mount is offset, flipping it means it is offset in the other direction at twice the distance it was offset before.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - SurfRodder - 06-11-2009
i believe what he's saying is that with the mount how you have it now puts the trans output 4 degrees away from where it should be pointing...with the mount on the way it was meant to be it had a +2* offset, now that its backwards, it has a -2* offset
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - winmutt - 06-11-2009
The mount is offset to make the drive shaft straight. By flipping it you have off centered it 2x the distance it took to get it straight in the first place.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - JB3 - 06-11-2009
Ah ha! I see.
Its not too late to fix that, Ive already welded in a few tabs so I could bolt it in backwards with all 4 holes. I will cut some side to side provision into the bracket to regain my double wrong offset.
Im also going to re-route the clutch line. Instead of over the trans, the braided stainless line I want to use wont make that kind of turn well, so I am running a new line underneath the engine right in front of the trans and then back on the passenger side and up.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - winmutt - 06-11-2009
I can pick you up the right thing for pennies the next time I go to the yard. Why hack it when the correct item is so regularly available?
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - JB3 - 06-11-2009
as far as the mount is concerned, I have basically tomorrow's lunch and a few hours after 6 to get this done and get the car off the lift at work. I can get another one at my leisure later on, but it must be rolling on friday. I should be able to set it up just as well for the interim.
The clutch line I think will be an improvement and im looking forward to getting it done. Ill take a picture once I set it up and you can tell me what you think. This is also a it must be done tomorrow issue, so I am limited to what parts I have available on hand in the shop.
I put in my two weeks notice just about two weeks ago, and for that whole time this car has been broken in the shop and me on a bicycle or borrowing other vehicles. So far, ive encountered amazing tolerance from the boss, but allowing the car to stay on the lift when I technically don't work there might push him over the edge. (he keeps a gun in the shop) Plus Id like to be driving the car again either way and make improvements while using it. I think its time to get another car rolling as well, that way I can afford to let this one sit while I find just the right parts.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - JB3 - 06-13-2009
down to the wire, but I got it done.
I permanently remounted the cross member by adding a few small tabs to bolt it to, and compensated for the offset by slotting both the tailcone of the trans itself and the bracket. That brings me back into original spec, (thanks for pointing that out) in a permanent way, but I can always remove this bracket and put in a 240 auto bracket later on when I pick one up. The tabs do not prevent me from installing different brackets. heres a pic of the mount from the driver front.
Installed a new slave cylinder in the final chapter of my "progressive diagnosis" of the clutch problem. If everything is new, chances are it should work. The clutch line reroute worked pretty well, I went right under the bellhousing and up, instead of over. That was a lot easier on the stainless steel braided line I wanted to install. The only issues I had was going from standard to metric line and fitting sizes.
The way I have it now I can unbolt the slave and swing the whole slave, line assembly forward out of the way.
heres are a few pics from underneath,
Back on the road! Im excited the drive this again with a pilot bearing and a straight driveshaft for the first time!
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - w123love - 02-23-2012
I like the stainless steel line you put in. I think once I get my clutch to work I will have one done.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - RonB - 02-23-2012
yes it is pretty oily under there...
Would the rear crossmember of a W116 V8 or W126 fit? .
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - SurfRodder - 02-23-2012
(02-23-2012, 05:33 AM)RonB Would the rear crossmember of a W116 V8 or W126 fit? .
if the part number is the same a s a 240D automatic crossmember it will...I doubt it though. As stated above that is the proper part to ensure the driveline is properly oriented. I used the manual 240D one for a while until I could source the proper one so its not a huge deal and you can get rolling without the right one, just should be replaced as soon as you can...less wear and tear overall...
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - winmutt - 02-24-2012
Surely MB went over the trans with clutch for safety reasons.
RE: amazing blunder with 4 speed swap - JB3 - 02-24-2012
(02-23-2012, 05:33 AM)RonB yes it is pretty oily under there...
Would the rear crossmember of a W116 V8 or W126 fit? .
that car was an oily mess.
Amazingly, sold it 2-3 years ago, and its up over 400K and still going strong. Oil all over it is keeping it from rusting too bad in north country NY. (don't think he's still using that 4-speed though, He swapped it out in the last 40-50K, had about 300K when I installed it 4-5 years ago)