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+--- Thread: W124 build (/showthread.php?tid=6478)
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 03-24-2016
Do not really have a targeted afr. But yes, was basically planning on hitting the power goals and keeping egts low enough to not melt it down. Low smoke is not the main concern. Or really a concern.
Let me know on the D200. I am a dealer for PCS. I can answer any questions. Basically the system that is in this car with EGTs and boost control, and some other sensors is around 2200.00. You can add more sensors if you like. The d200 has 8 analog channels and 2 speed inputs and 2 pwm outputs. The EGT module is on CAN so it does not use any analog inputs so you can pretty much monitor anything you want.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 03-24-2016
Valve springs almost done. We had to drill the locators for clearance at the guide but otherwise off the shelf parts. They are tight on the exhaust valve stem seal but they should be ok for clearance.
RE: W124 build - SurfRodder - 03-24-2016
What application are thsoe springs for?
What part of Seattle are you in? My ship is homeport shifting up to Everett soon, but will be in drydock near Seattle for a while.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 03-24-2016
Springs are for a toyota engine and the locators are for a raptor or something and retainers I do not know. It is not a cheap setup but it is nice stuff and as long as we have no troubles on the exh. seal then I think they are a solid setup. I think with these locators we ended up around 62-65 on the seat and 180ish on full lift. I will have to go back and look through the emails for the exact numbers.
I am over in the Bellevue area. Off of NE 8th Near downtown.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 03-24-2016
This outfit sells Volo springs that are apparently drop in and have similar clamping pressures to the springs you describe.
http://shop.klracing.se/sv/artiklar/volvo-vit-motor-7mm-ventil-enkel-fjader-30kg.html
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 03-25-2016
Unless they have retainers and locators they are not drop in. They are close but the upper and lower id are not the same as factory and the total lift on these is not great. Like other companies out there offering springs for these motors that look like a cheap alternative I do not like to take risks in areas like this. If you want to control your valves and not have spring failure then it has to be correct.
The springs by them selves are only 27.00 each. But with locators and retainers and keepers it adds up quickly.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 03-25-2016
(03-25-2016, 08:12 AM)whipplem104 Unless they have retainers and locators they are not drop in. They are close but the upper and lower id are not the same as factory and the total lift on these is not great. Like other companies out there offering springs for these motors that look like a cheap alternative I do not like to take risks in areas like this. If you want to control your valves and not have spring failure then it has to be correct.
The springs by them selves are only 27.00 each. But with locators and retainers and keepers it adds up quickly.
Well, since we are discussing the utility of burning out vs the utility of other completely outrageous driving behaviors, I will point out that Hans Persson dropped those Volo springs in with stock hardware and seems to be going OK with his hx52 16cm and 160cc (I think) dieselmeken pump:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkguEa3sP9o&sns=em
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 03-25-2016
I am not arguing if they fit in, but rather that they are not correct. They have room to move up top and at the bottom. This will allow the spring to dance around in an oval and also allow the spring be off to one side. Look up high speed video of a spring in action. They are really moving around a lot and now imagine they were not being held in position at the top and bottom.
Do what you want but I would prefer to have it be correct.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 03-25-2016
Makes sense. I can see how it might become a problem.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 04-10-2016
Have not posted since going to the dyno etc. I do not have the printouts. But on a dyno dynamics dyno we made 600lb/ft of torque and then I backed it down to 550. Could have made more but I did not want to shoot the crank out the bottom of the engine. We made a peak 471 hp. These numbers are at the wheels. We then ran 122mph in the 1/4 having to lift going into 3rd. It was a little damp and could not get the boost per gear dialed to hold it and then it rained out. Also it is not quick off the line. Next time I will run it out to 130 to get 6-130 times.
For reference and numbers are relative. A gentleman was there with a supercharged Hemi Challenger that made 505whp at this dyno and went across town and made 638 whp.
We will be doing round 2 after fixing some stuff. And putting the N/A cam in and playing with timing and high cetane fuel.
I started playing with timing and I think there are some gains to be had there and driveability.
RE: W124 build - erx - 04-11-2016
(04-10-2016, 12:54 PM)whipplem104 Have not posted since going to the dyno etc. I do not have the printouts. But on a dyno dynamics dyno we made 600lb/ft of torque and then I backed it down to 550. Could have made more but I did not want to shoot the crank out the bottom of the engine. We made a peak 471 hp. These numbers are at the wheels. We then ran 122mph in the 1/4 having to lift going into 3rd. It was a little damp and could not get the boost per gear dialed to hold it and then it rained out. Also it is not quick off the line. Next time I will run it out to 130 to get 6-130 times.
For reference and numbers are relative. A gentleman was there with a supercharged Hemi Challenger that made 505whp at this dyno and went across town and made 638 whp.
We will be doing round 2 after fixing some stuff. And putting the N/A cam in and playing with timing and high cetane fuel.
I started playing with timing and I think there are some gains to be had there and driveability.
Very nice figures.
I'm waiting results with N/A cam, I would like to know how big difference it will make. You changed valve springs, from what point do you recommend to use stiffer springs? I have completely stock engine and I'm looking for the same figures with HX52.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 04-11-2016
That is a hard question in a way. Really at any point you are going above stock you should. It also really depends on your exhaust back pressure and RPMs. Exhaust valves do not have cylinder pressure equalizing on the other side so it probably is a psi to psi relationship on the seat. I would really be worried at anything above 20-25 psi.
RE: W124 build - erx - 04-11-2016
(04-11-2016, 07:57 AM)whipplem104 That is a hard question in a way. Really at any point you are going above stock you should. It also really depends on your exhaust back pressure and RPMs. Exhaust valves do not have cylinder pressure equalizing on the other side so it probably is a psi to psi relationship on the seat. I would really be worried at anything above 20-25 psi.
Last year I made 510hp with HX40 and 3bar/45psi with stock engine, I ran it to 6500rpm on dyno and no problems so far. Donor car had 470k km/ 290k miles and engine is never opened, 500hp is max from HX40 so I go with HX52 this year, we'll see how it goes.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 04-11-2016
Do you have a dyno graph of the run? Where did it make peak power?
RE: W124 build - erx - 04-11-2016
(04-11-2016, 12:45 PM)whipplem104 Do you have a dyno graph of the run? Where did it make peak power?This graph is not 100% accurate because it was actually 6000rpm pull, we had a little problem with rpm reading so it is showing a little less rpm on graph. So max hp seems to be somewhere between 5100-5200rpm but it pulled nicely to 6000 when driving. I'll let you know if I dyno with new setup, soon I can make first test drive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQ6RRr8fBwA
![[Image: dyno%2010.08.2015_zpsik37zmxf.jpg]](http://s236.photobucket.com/user/erx000/media/Mercedes/dyno%2010.08.2015_zpsik37zmxf.jpg.html)
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 04-11-2016
Yes that is a similar power curve to ours. We will see. Did you match your rpms to roller speed for RPM.
RE: W124 build - Sultzi - 04-12-2016
Friend of mine had om606 in a e30 bmw with lysholm 2300 supercharger and hx55 in a stock motor and around 3.2bar of boost. When you did give the car a good punishment it started to idle very rough for a while and sometimes at upper rpm's it was little rough. Problems went away after stiffer valve springs.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 05-27-2016
Well we are sitting and waiting for a SFI rated balancer to be designed. Sent in both the turbo and non turbo. Basically the turbo balancer has a 2nd harmonic that is for chassis vibrations. So it would be expensive and a waste for what we are doing. So hopefully within a month or 2 we have a new balancer for our application. While we wait I got a bunch of wiring cleaned up and done. Also getting the new subframe powder coated and when that is back going to throw in the 210mm diff with 3.06 gears and get a driveshaft made. After it is finished will go ahead and do a limited slip. Exhaust is going to get done soon as well. So picking away.
RE: W124 build - erx - 06-14-2016
I have similar modified intake manifold like you do but it has really long ports, do you think they are suitable for 5000+ rpm? I'm thinking of making them shorter like many others have done, I believe it's because long ports are better for low rpm. I would like to know what you think about shortening intake ports. One more thing, have you compared turbo and na cam's duration and timing, is higher lift only difference or do they have different timing also?
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 06-14-2016
Through my experience with gas cars. The long runners are not as suited to high rpm. But these are not revving that high and port diameter is not bad. I do not think that is the hold up on these and the longer runners do support out of boost torque. So everything is a trade off. I really decided that the head and valves and cams were the limiting factor before anything else. And I was not going to go down that road.
As far as the cam is concerned it is more lift and a slightly longer duration on the one side of the profile. Like 10-12 degrees. So lobe separation changes a little bit but there is still no overlap and it is a small change. I would have to go back and look at the details. I put the n/a cam in and have driven it around but only at low boost and have not had it on the dyno yet. So I do not want to say that it did much or anything at this point but I have to believe it should show up at the higher rpm when the extra lift should be a benefit.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 07-06-2016
Well new balancer is finally through design and into production. Should have it in about a month. SFI certified and reasonably priced single piece assembly. Waiting on final cost but should be around 750.00 retail. We are also going to double pin it to the crank and stay below 6k rpm.
A new exhaust housing is on the way to bring the turbo into the below 3k operating range. We are going to test out on the current setup with the N/A intake cam and play with timing a bit before switching.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 11-13-2016
We finally went back to the dyno. Different dyno this time but all the same we made 543whp and around 650wtq. We started at 505whp and I do not remember the tq number.
There is more in it in injection timing. I did not have a lot of time but I went to a really retarded timing setting, do not know exactly what the number is but it gray smokes like crazy at idle. But it made more lbs of boost and around 40 more whp. So now I am thinking that I may limit or fix the timing advance and set it static. Not sure how this makes sense but it was clear as day on the dyno. Had more boost and power throughout the rpm range. We maxed out at 47psi and held 42 to 6k. EGTs maxed out at around 1400F.
I think we are going to give another go in the spring.
Strange thing is that more timing yielded no more power and less timing did not yield any difference in spool up.
I also think that the low timing kept the engine from heating up as much.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 11-13-2016
This thread is awesome.
Did dieselmeken not tell you what timing to use with the pump? Seems strange. The timing on mine is different than stock and completely the other side of tdc. I would assume he plays similar games with his pump's timing.
I need to read up on the theory behind it all.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 11-13-2016
He did say what the timing should be. It just seems that that is completely wrong. It won't idle and hammers like hell and does not make as much power.
RE: W124 build - erx - 11-13-2016
(11-13-2016, 02:24 PM)whipplem104 He did say what the timing should be. It just seems that that is completely wrong. It won't idle and hammers like hell and does not make as much power.
Do you have crank pulley 100% for sure set to 0 degree? Or maybe there's something wrong with pump cam timing itself. My first 7.5mm pump from 2012 was very smooth, set to 11 degree. This summer new 8mm pump was knocking hard but idled quite well. Now back to 7,5mm elements and still knocking, maybe a little less than 8mm but not as close like first 7.5mm pump. Don't know if new elements are making more noise than older or do I have some other problem.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 11-15-2016
These pumps are different than his older 8mm pump. This is a 230cc pump. Timing was stamped on it at 22d btdc. So what happens is as you retard the timing it gets smoother and idles way better but it starts to gray smoke. Once on it it runs fine. Once it hits boost and is making power other than the dyno it is nearly impossible to tell the difference.
I am just after max power and then I will work on driveabiltiy. I will get back over to my friends dyno were I can spend all the time I need figuring out what works and what does not.
RE: W124 build - erx - 11-15-2016
(11-15-2016, 02:14 PM)whipplem104 These pumps are different than his older 8mm pump. This is a 230cc pump. Timing was stamped on it at 22d btdc. So what happens is as you retard the timing it gets smoother and idles way better but it starts to gray smoke. Once on it it runs fine. Once it hits boost and is making power other than the dyno it is nearly impossible to tell the difference.
I am just after max power and then I will work on driveabiltiy. I will get back over to my friends dyno were I can spend all the time I need figuring out what works and what does not.
This 22 btdc is interesting, I ordered 8mm pump few moths ago and label says 220cc, 8-10ATDC, 80LF4. I put it on 9 degrees and it was fine.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 11-15-2016
Evidently he has only built a few of these. They have a different cam in them and some other stuff.
RE: W124 build - erx - 11-15-2016
(11-15-2016, 04:50 PM)whipplem104 Evidently he has only built a few of these. They have a different cam in them and some other stuff.
Talk more about this pump, why you choosed this strange setup and what should be the advantages of this pump? I mean why didn't you order typical pump, worked fine on my car and made 544whp/858wnm with lots of black smoke. I belive you couldn't burn 220 or 230cc anyway, my 180cc 7.5mm pump made 502whp/799wnm with hx52, so in my opinion 230cc should be near 700whp.
RE: W124 build - R-3350 - 11-15-2016
check Dieselmekens facebook he recently posted something from DPUK they have a 606 making 611WHP on 190cc/1000 estimated around 730HP at the crank. there's something to be said there to deceasing lag and increasing air flow as much as possible to get as much as you can from the same fueling level. when i swapped the HE221W onto my 617 i didn't increase the fueling at first that plus the w115 manifold noticeably increased power again without increasing fueling. the 606 stock manifold is pretty good but theres almost always room for improvement. maybe look into designing a pulse tuned intake and exhaust manifold. i have been using open foam to work on a set for the 617. it takes a bit to get the hang of it but once you do its quite useful for a variety of CFD modeling.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 11-15-2016
Sorry for double post.
Mine is marked 20 btdc. Not installed yet though. Myna.
I wonder if it makes a difference for egt when you retard beyond the recommended setting? I'm also guessing that the pump is still injecting at a similar time to the stock pump, but is set differently due to new internals?
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 11-16-2016
Because it was supposed to be better and capable of making more hp. And yes we were and are trying to make more hp.
Big thing though is comparing dynos does not really work. And measurement techniques are different and correction factors etc.
For instance we were on two different dynos and it made about 50whp different right off the bat. Slightly different weather etc but they are different. And one calculated tq from a measure hp and the other calculates hp from measured tq. So different techniques. Then add different caclulations in europe using DIN and SAE in the u.s. and I am not sure what is what anymore. It is all just bragging anyways.
The truth of the matter is with drag radials on this thing it is still hard to put the power down until you are going over 60mph in 3rd gear. I work on Mercedes and do other stuff on some fast AMG cars and this thing would destroy anything them.
RE: W124 build - erx - 11-17-2016
I agree with dyno differences, we have here also different dynos and they give different values.
But still, what are the mechanical differences of this pump from others like mine was? Why it's set to 20BTDC not 10ATDC? If you take pump to peaces then you can put timing to whatever point you want, centrifugal weights with timing mark is turning 360 degrees on cam so you can tighten it on any point, I just wonder why 20BTDC. It seems like this pump timing is set to 0 degrees on test bench, so 20BTDC is actual injecting timing.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 11-17-2016
From what whipplem104 is saying, it sounds like Dieselmeken has started doing what Myna have been doing for a long time regarding the camshafts and pump timing. From Myna you get a choice of old vs new style camshaft and 7mm vs 8mm elements. So four possible setups depending upon how much you want it to nail etc at idle, and the desired power (fuel) level. And the timing is now 20 btdc, rather than after.
But I am surprised if you guys in Finland/Sweden/Norway do not know this already :-)
There is obviously a lot to the injection duration and the cams help with that, as do the elements. But perhaps these cams are out of other pumps and need to be timed differently because this is not the original application of the cam itself.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 11-17-2016
The various videos where dieselmeken says his pump's are better than Myna make me laugh. Obvious he feels they get more credit than they deserve. But with time his pumps look more and more like theirs.
RE: W124 build - Mr_Robs - 12-25-2016
Intercooler setup looks great man. Once Om606w201 & i get our cars running we should try and do a west coast STD meetup at some point.
What kind of torque converter are you running in the 722.6?
Also did you end up buying a full subframe w/ quaife from a 190rev member?
I'm still on the fence on what to do about my diff. The wavetrac option looks to be the most attractive right now.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 12-26-2016
Thanks,
I am not sure what you mean by what kind of converter. It is a factory converter right now. I am having one stalled to put in it as well.
No, we just bought 400e subframe and a 3.06 diff to put in it. Have not ordered the lsd yet.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 03-24-2017
I will need some of those Ferrea valve springs and a balancer. Kinda hoping to not have to drill stuff out for that money but will do whatever it takes as my back pressure is going to be pretty high.
Has your sedan seen any more miles or development? I recall you were planning a smaer turbine housing for it. I will have 17psi by 1750 rpm if things go to plan.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 03-24-2017
Let me know. I can put an order in for you.
I do not know what you mean by drill stuff out?
No we have not done much but have some things on the books. We do have a smaller housing and a new converter. We should be hitting some boost by around 2600 rpm and we will have stall to match. So the car will be able to launch on boost. and we are going to try some new stuff to get the engine to make some more power up in the rpms.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 03-24-2017
Drill the locators for clearance at the guide, per your post above. I have not done this job before, so it is all a bit abstract.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 03-24-2017
Oh,
No we can have that done at the order. That was just an oversight. It would be done at a machine shop. Or at Ferrea. The only reason to do it locally is that the coating is lost and they would rust if sitting on the shelf for a long time.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 04-28-2017
Got some things changed out and adjusted. New converter and smaller a/r and we can start building boost at a stop. It takes a little bit of time but I can get it up to 2200rpm on the brakes and leave on boost. Kind of amazing for such a large turbo. We are putting the larger 210mm diff in with a wavetrac lsd and a new driveshaft and heading back to the dyno to try a couple of more things and then to the track again and then I am done until it comes back from the body shop etc.
RE: W124 build - Turbo - 04-29-2017
any picture on the car?
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 04-30-2017
I have a bunch more on my facebook page. Sound German Automotive. The car is just an old beat up w124 but after we get these final things done it is going to get a full 500e factory body put on it and brakes and wheels and interior. etc.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 09-24-2017
Just a little update.
New driveline is in. Wavetrac lsd with 3.06 gears and custom driveshaft from a 400-500e flanges.
Here are some new dyno results. Nitrous seems to make some power on these engines. Although it shifted peak HP down in the RPM range. It still made more HP all the way through. We did not run nitrous at the track but will in the future. I do not have copies of the time slips but we ran 12.56et at just shy of 124 mph and I think the best 60' was 2.34s. The stall on the converter just is a little bit shy to get good boost built up. I am a couple hundred rpm shy at around 2500rpm. I only get 2-3 psi. But we gain 30mph or more on the back half.
For some reason I cannot attach the pictures of the dyno runs here. But I have them on my facebook page. Sound German Automotive
if anyone wants to see them. We just started doing short bursts at the power band that we were making progress in as not to kill it but I included full runs to compare.
RE: W124 build - maxypriest - 09-25-2017
Nice - :-)
How is that car in comparison with AMG 63's ?
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 09-25-2017
Which 63?
I really have not had any time in a newer TT car but the m156 cars I have lots of time in. This thing would pull hard on one of those. Similar traps speeds as a m156 with headers and a tune but we are making gobs more tq. This car is not to quick to get moving. Ok, it is slow to get moving as it sits. And I regulate power up to 3rd gear to keep the tires from blowing off of it. I think with tires that can hold the power alone we could get this thing quite a bit faster.
RE: W124 build - atypicalguy - 11-20-2017
(09-25-2017, 12:09 PM)whipplem104 Which 63?
I really have not had any time in a newer TT car but the m156 cars I have lots of time in. This thing would pull hard on one of those. Similar traps speeds as a m156 with headers and a tune but we are making gobs more tq. This car is not to quick to get moving. Ok, it is slow to get moving as it sits. And I regulate power up to 3rd gear to keep the tires from blowing off of it. I think with tires that can hold the power alone we could get this thing quite a bit faster.
What kind if tire would hold that sort or power on a 16x8 rim? Is there such a thing that will fit on the rear?
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 11-20-2017
A proper drag slick would and a bit wider. We are running a set of drag radials on a 7.5" rim. I think a 8.5 or a 9" rim with a 275 series hoosier or the like would hold. We have pretty lousy track prep here for TNT as well.
RE: W124 build - whipplem104 - 04-24-2018
Well rough bit finally hit. Prechamber dropped the tip off and damaged the piston and bent a valve but upon disassembly all the rods appear to be bent. Slight scuffing on the cylinders from side load. Overall I am super impressed it has lasted this long. Even though the miles have not been many. All of them have been at near fulll throttle. So I was thinking about 3-4 tanks of fuel. So around a 800-1000 miles of full tilt. Either dyno testing or track time. And quite a few around the blocks.
Looking at solutions for the problems. Maybe redo piston rod profile and looking into some options on prechambers from coating to new design.