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+--- Thread: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler (/showthread.php?tid=734)
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Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 09-30-2009
I am bored and need a challenge so I decided to go with the A/W IC, but taking a different path.
I am going to use this IC, got for $59.00 on eBay.
I am also going to use a manifold from a NA ca. 1976 pictured here:
(I have already started to modify the intake)
I plan on cutting one side of the IC plenum off and welding it to the intake manifold. It may require some fabricating of a transition from IC to manifold or I might get away with just trim the IC to fit.
I will post more pics when I get the IC.
RE: ForcedInduction's Air-Water intercooler - winmutt - 10-01-2009
Bastard! I was just working on this as well, trying to find someone to do the welding at the right price.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - ForcedInduction - 10-01-2009
Hey! This was my idea!
Can't wait to see the results, lookin good!
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - DeliveryValve - 10-01-2009
You guys are just awsome! This looks like a great path.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - kamel - 10-01-2009
No you guys are all jockin my idea! BTW, if anyone needs it, I can weld aluminum. Shipping might be the problem though.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-01-2009
(10-01-2009, 03:40 PM)kamel Shipping might be the problem though.
Why?
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Motorhead - 10-01-2009
I think we are all on the same page with the I/C design, I have an '03 Cobra I/C core that I was going to use on my intake but I think I will see what I can find at SEMA. I should get another intake before I cut my only one up, I did find the electric Cobra I/C pump sitting around but I would like to get a brushless pump to complete the job.
All great work, this site has some great wrench'n going on.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - winmutt - 10-02-2009
I got someone to do the work for me, now to figure out if I can use the intake I have or if another would be more suitable.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Motorhead - 10-03-2009
(09-30-2009, 10:03 PM)Rudolf_Diesel I am bored and need a challenge so I decided to go with the A/W IC, but taking a different path.
I am going to use this IC, got for $59.00 on eBay.
I am also going to use a manifold from a NA ca. 1976 pictured here:
(I have already started to modify the intake)
Take the time to do some clean up porting on the inside of the intake, just make sure there are no sharp edges to the runners. Good job!
I plan on cutting one side of the IC plenum off and welding it to the intake manifold. It may require some fabricating of a transition from IC to manifold or I might get away with just trim the IC to fit.
I will post more pics when I get the IC.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-08-2009
Here are some pics of the progress thus far:
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - tantank79 - 10-08-2009
Nice!
I like your jig table setup as well.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-08-2009
(10-08-2009, 09:55 PM)tantank79 Nice!
I like your jig table setup as well.
Thanks, I will test fit this weekend and make sure all is well before I finish the welding.
It was kind of slow yesterday so I drilled and tapped 40 holes in our welding table. It worked out quite well for this application.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - ForcedInduction - 10-09-2009
Very professional. Isn't it going to be a bit wide though? I know it will fit a 126's cavern, but it would hit the fender in a W123.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - kamel - 10-09-2009
Very nice. I hope mine comes out that clean.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - winmutt - 10-09-2009
It's a bit late for this but does anyone know what air temps are seen on the intake side? I am worried that heat soak from the engine might actually degrade performance. Certain a good reason to start with the long runners. Man I wish I had a shop like you
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - tomnik - 10-09-2009
Heat soak? No.
I’d be more concerned about the engine shaking/vibration. The mass of the IC is far out at the end of the runners… just a feeling when I imagine i.e. start and stop of the engine.
Tom
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - ForcedInduction - 10-09-2009
(10-09-2009, 08:16 AM)winmutt It's a bit late for this but does anyone know what air temps are seen on the intake side?
Hot enough to boil 60:40 coolant after ~40 seconds at 18psi.
Heat soak hasn't been an issue for me. The outlet of the intercooler has always been cool.
Mine has silicone boots on both ends to insulate it from conducting engine heat, but Rudolf_Diesel's might since it has indirect contact with the cylinder head.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-09-2009
It should take up less room than my current set up, but I will do the test fit to see if there are any clearance problems. The weight of the unit is also a concern so I am also planning on adding some support gussets and maybe a strut rod underneath and they will also serve as a mount for a heat shield.
It is nice when you have some cool tools at work - Lathe, Mill, Power tools galore, Plasma, Oxy-Acetylene, MIG, TIG, SMAW - I just need to learn the CNC! - Before the divorce I had everything, but the lathe and CNC.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - winmutt - 10-09-2009
Wow, I didn't expect it to get that hot. That pretty much resolves the question of heatsoak as the intake manifold gets hot but not that hot.
-Rolf
(10-09-2009, 09:10 AM)ForcedInduction(10-09-2009, 08:16 AM)winmutt It's a bit late for this but does anyone know what air temps are seen on the intake side?
Hot enough to boil 60:40 coolant after ~40 seconds at 18psi.
Heat soak hasn't been an issue for me. The outlet of the intercooler has always been cool.
Mine has silicone boots on both ends to insulate it from conducting engine heat, but Rudolf_Diesel's might since it has indirect contact with the cylinder head.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - ForcedInduction - 10-09-2009
Just to clarify, thats at the turbo side of the intercooler where the water is boiling. The coolant flow direction is opposite the airflow.
The manifold gets hot from heat conducted from contact with the cylinder head, but there is a significant difference in how hot it feels from before and after the intercooler was installed.
Before, it would be in the burn range to try and hold onto it. After, its "tolerable" hot.
I think machining the manifold to fit plastic insulators on the head face and stud tube halves would make a noteworthy difference.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Tymbrymi - 10-09-2009
(10-09-2009, 09:10 AM)ForcedInduction Hot enough to boil 60:40 coolant after ~40 seconds at 18psi.
That definitely shows how hot the IATs are, but I don't think you'd boil the water if your water flow was higher
(10-09-2009, 11:13 AM)ForcedInduction The manifold gets hot from heat conducted from contact with the cylinder head, but there is a significant difference in how hot it feels from before and after the intercooler was installed.
The manifold ALSO gets hot from the post-turbo IATs. With IATs as high as the head temperature (before it was intercooled) it is going to get plenty hot from that as well!
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-10-2009
Okay, I was up till midnight re-engineering the manifold, it was too big for my liking and I am way happier the way it turned out!
I still need to install the water system, but I took it for test drive and holy shit it flows much better, I am hitting 24 pounds of boost! I need to adjust my boost controller. Boost comes on much quicker and stronger.
Tomorrow I am hitting the junk yard to look for a radiator from a 3 cyl. sprint or something along those lines. I am also going to fab a tank about 4" in diamter and 12" tall to act as a reservoir. I plan on using a MB water heater aux pump, but I am not sure it will be enough. I also plan on using an electric fan for the IC radiator.
Here are some pics:
More pics:
more pics
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - DeliveryValve - 10-10-2009
I had reservations of the original. But that rendition is soo much better.
Looks great! Good job.
.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - ForcedInduction - 10-10-2009
Yes, the revision looks much better. Can't wait to see the radiator setup!
What are you going to do for bleeding the top half of the IC core? Bryan has to tip his up to get the air out.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-10-2009
(10-10-2009, 09:54 PM)ForcedInduction Yes, the revision looks much better. Can't wait to see the radiator setup!
What are you going to do for bleeding the top half of the IC core? Bryan has to tip his up to get the air out.
Thanks for the compliments guys.
I am going to drill and tap a small port on the top of the water side of the IC. Also, add an expansion tank / filler at a point higher than the IC there should have enough room on the fire wall to mount it. This should eliminate the air in the sytem.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Kiwibacon - 10-10-2009
That cardboard polished up nicely.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - winmutt - 10-11-2009
Much better fit, I had planned on doing your first revision but will certainly be stealing your revision. I love the valve cover too. When you say the boost is coming on faster / stronger, that is a comparison to ?
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-11-2009
(10-11-2009, 01:28 AM)winmutt Much better fit, I had planned on doing your first revision but will certainly be stealing your revision. I love the valve cover too. When you say the boost is coming on faster / stronger, that is a comparison to ?
You can steel all you like
That what this site is for. The valve cover took me about 6 hours of grinding and sanding before I painted it. If you could see the areas where the injectors are, they are as smooth as a babies ass. So far it has held up to the heat and oil.
As far as the boost I need to observe a little more to get a more analytical view, but because there is not a restriction in the path of the air, the boost comes on sooner - no lag. Think of it as blowing up a baloon for the first time, It is very hard at first but as it expands it is easier to fill. The Saab IC was kind of like the ballon, once the air got moving it was fine. This is in comparsion to the Saab intercooler, which did a decent job, but this is MUCH better.
If I really got on it hard before, maybe I would spike at 22 pounds of boost, now it can easily hit 24 running it the same way - trans in L and flooring it. The motor climbs to 4300 and shifts to second gear, when it reaches 4300 again I shift into S. All the time it is boosting hard and fast.
The only thing I have left to do is get a VNT. I love my turbo, but I omly have 1-2 psi below 1200, I get 5 at around 1600.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - winmutt - 10-11-2009
Ah compared to the SAAB ic. Good. As soon as payday rolls around I am getting mine. You said you were adding xtra supports? You are going to mount them to the engine right?
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - ForcedInduction - 10-11-2009
Supports are definitely required. The thin aluminum intake wasn't designed to support weight beyond itself and I have no doubt would eventually break off after a few weeks of vibration.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Tymbrymi - 10-11-2009
Awesome work!! Want to sell any duplicates?
I think you're going to be very happy with the results from that! (10-11-2009, 08:36 AM)Rudolf_Diesel This is in comparsion to the Saab intercooler, which did a decent job, but this is MUCH better.
Do you happen to remember how it spooled in relation to the stock non-intercooled setup?
EDIT: Thanks for documenting this so well! All those pictures really help out for those of us planning similar mods. Also, please take note of those EGTs for us!
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Motorhead - 10-11-2009
Man that's what I talking about! I have to pack 500#'s of shit in a 10 # sack and also try to make it look good on my projects and here Rudolf has made it happen, good job. [/u]
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-11-2009
I went to Pick-a-Part today and found a radiator from a Geo metro, 1.0L, 3 Cyl. engine. It's a single core and had a fan and reservoir bottle - I ended up not getting the parts. They wanted $100.00 for everything. I am a cheap basterd and so I said for that price I could buy a better one. Hell, for that matter I am going to build my own! I have found a use for my old Saab IC, it is now going to be an aluminum radiator. I started off by cutting off the tanks. I will do the tank mock up with my "magic cardboard".
Here are a couple of pics so far:
Starting to cut the tanks off of Saab IC
Tanks removed
Stay tuned!
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-11-2009
Here are pics of the completed tanks:
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Kiwibacon - 10-12-2009
(10-11-2009, 10:28 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Here are pics of the completed tanks:
Is the welding yours? It's very tidy.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-12-2009
(10-12-2009, 12:03 AM)Kiwibacon(10-11-2009, 10:28 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Here are pics of the completed tanks:
Is the welding yours? It's very tidy.
Yes, it is me, thank you, but I am no where near the level I would like to be.
I get better each time I do it - It's all about practice, practice, practice.
The key is a steady hand. The biggest aluminum welding job I had was when I was on the TV show "Monster House" My project took me four days to complete. It was some huge aluminum sheets that I had to weld, outside with the wind blowing my gas away - what a PITA.
My favorite welding is MIG, but I can do em all. I started welding when I was 12 years old and it just came natural.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Kiwibacon - 10-12-2009
(10-12-2009, 12:15 AM)Rudolf_Diesel Yes, it is me, thank you, but I am no where near the level I would like to be.
I get better each time I do it - It's all about practice, practice, practice.
The key is a steady hand. The biggest aluminum welding job I had was when I was on the TV show "Monster House" My project took me four days to complete. It was some huge aluminum sheets that I had to weld, outside with the wind blowing my gas away - what a PITA.
My favorite welding is MIG, but I can do em all. I started welding when I was 12 years old and it just came natural.
I can acheive good results with stainless and mild steel, I've never tried aluminium. The fact it doesn't change colour before turning into a big blob on the floor speaks clearly about the welding difficulty.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-12-2009
Quote:I can acheive good results with stainless and mild steel, I've never tried aluminium. The fact it doesn't change colour before turning into a big blob on the floor speaks clearly about the welding difficulty.
But it does change...You use AC and you start out the arc on lower power and use the AC to clean the area. You will actually see impurities vaporize. As the area gets hotter you apply more current and you will see the aluminum change color from dull to a nice shiny puddle. Give it some more current and then add your filler rod - piece of cake
The Tungsten makes a difference too. I use pure tungsten, a gas lense, pure Argon and 4043 rod. I have heard a 50/50 mix of Argon & Helium works quite well.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - kamel - 10-13-2009
Aluminums still easiest for me. Love stainless, but steel is best reserved for mig. Not that I can't do it, its just much faster with a squirt gun. Rudolf you are my hero, i'll definately be using this design, but may be incorporating a header. ah ah ah
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - E300TSC - 10-13-2009
This looks fantastic though I would humbly ask that you reduce your photos to 1024x768. The big ones make it hard to see your great work!
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - winmutt - 10-13-2009
Im working on finding a auto resize ala benzword's 800px width limit.
Does the saab ic/radiator leak?
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-13-2009
(10-13-2009, 02:10 PM)winmutt Does the saab ic/radiator leak?
Nope
I tested it with 10 PSI of compressed air and did a soap test. I had one pin hole, but a little bit of welding did the trick. I will install this weekend, but I have been driving around a few days now and it is nice!! It takes off from a stop much quicker and it sounds different too. It also kind of resonates at a certain RPM - I can feel it through the throttle pedal. I think whe it has water it will make a difference, kind of like an empty beer can vs. a full one.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - winmutt - 10-14-2009
Water would certainly dampen the vibrations. Did you weigh the whole thing assembled?
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-18-2009
I did not measure the weight, but I would guess the whole thing weighs around 10-15 lbs.
Here are some more pics, almost complete:
Reservoir Tank with Mag-lite Cap
Another view of tank
Resevoir tank installed
Radiator installed
Pump installed
Coolant used, the entire system holds about 2 gallons
Intake manifold support, there is a gusset underneath as well.
I should be finished tomorrow.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - winmutt - 10-19-2009
Man you continue to make me jealous.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-19-2009
Finished up today after work. Had to re-powdercoat filter intake tube, lengthen hose from radiator to overflow tank and mount brackets for air cleaner air dam.
I took for a 20 mile test drive and all seems well. I have lost the resonance at 2200 -2500 adding water did the trick, just as I thought. The EGT's never got above 850, they got up to 1050 with this set up and no water. The manifold would be too hot to touch with out the water, now you can put your hand on it after the 20 mile drive and keep it there as long as you like.
When I test drive, I drive it like I stole it - Same when I test drive a car, that really pisses off the salesman
So I was able to get some good comparisons to berfore added water/coolant - All seems good and I will keep you posted on the progress. I am also waiting for one more piece to complete the installation - a filler neck and cap from a Polaris qaud via ebay $13.00 for the neck and cap + $10.00 shipping. The local dealer wanted $60.00 for the two pieces.
This weekend I am going on the poker run and can have a few others see what they think of the accelleration and overall performance. I am at the point where I cannot really tell how it is doing because I don't have a comparison.
Stay tuned for the next project - VNT turbo on its way!
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Syncro_G - 10-20-2009
(10-19-2009, 09:03 PM)Rudolf_Diesel I am at the point where I cannot really tell how it is doing because I don't have a comparison.
This is where an accelerometer comes in handy. If you have an iPhone already, you might try getting the dynolicious app so you can do real comparisons of acceleration.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-20-2009
(10-20-2009, 12:35 AM)Syncro_G(10-19-2009, 09:03 PM)Rudolf_Diesel I am at the point where I cannot really tell how it is doing because I don't have a comparison.
This is where an accelerometer comes in handy. If you have an iPhone already, you might try getting the dynolicious app so you can do real comparisons of acceleration.
I know someone that has one with the app - I will do some testing today and see what I come up with...
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - ForcedInduction - 10-20-2009
Accurate weight is important for that, use a certified truck stop or race scale.
RE: Rudolf_diesel's Air-Water intercooler - George3soccer - 10-20-2009
Talk about wow, love the set up, sure wish I finish school quicker.