Extra/Assist injector, aka 'Phantom Cylinder'
Extra/Assist injector, aka 'Phantom Cylinder'
If you were to get the 5 cyclinders in time and running the right amounts the 6th injector would be adding extra fuel almost in a carb.TBI-like fashion. OM616 uses a 617a pump, 617a uses a 60X M pump. 6 cylinder guys are screwed. (Unless they want to get an 8 cylinder pump and use two injectors.)
Figure, 'normal' maxed out stock pump fuel figures augmented by a 5-600ccs worth (whatever the amount would be for the 'phantom cylinder' at that setting for that pump) once per injection cycle. Assuming that's true then there'd be 20% more fuel (although shared by 4 or 5 cylinders).
Just my goofy idea of the hour, or does it have some merit? You know how y'all were complaining about how there's like a million 6 cylinder pumps and like three for 5 cylinder engines? Well, ...
Oh, and if the fuel gain seems minimal, how about this: 5 stock DVs and one cut one!
CID Vicious
01-25-2010, 02:03 PM #1So I was just remembering that a lot of EFI engines have a cold start injector that injects fuel into the intake. Since we're so fuel limited, would it be possible to add a '6th' (or 5th in my case) injector to add fuel on demand? How to get it pressurized and timed...well, maybe using a 6 cylinder M pump and mounting the 6th injector at/near the intake's, um, intake.
If you were to get the 5 cyclinders in time and running the right amounts the 6th injector would be adding extra fuel almost in a carb.TBI-like fashion. OM616 uses a 617a pump, 617a uses a 60X M pump. 6 cylinder guys are screwed. (Unless they want to get an 8 cylinder pump and use two injectors.)
Figure, 'normal' maxed out stock pump fuel figures augmented by a 5-600ccs worth (whatever the amount would be for the 'phantom cylinder' at that setting for that pump) once per injection cycle. Assuming that's true then there'd be 20% more fuel (although shared by 4 or 5 cylinders).
Just my goofy idea of the hour, or does it have some merit? You know how y'all were complaining about how there's like a million 6 cylinder pumps and like three for 5 cylinder engines? Well, ...
Oh, and if the fuel gain seems minimal, how about this: 5 stock DVs and one cut one!
ForcedInduction
01-25-2010, 02:13 PM
#2
Nope. Doesn't work on diesels. The closest thing would be water/methanol injection.
The various diesel motorsports sanctioning bodies out there have strict rules against running anything but plain water for water injection. Heck, at some events they even provide the water. That tells you that some folks have added things like methanol and the like to the water for more power and lead to an 'unfair' advantage. Diesel has such a low flash point that it probably isn't the best choice for injecting into the intake...but we all know that our diesel engines will run like crazy on engine oil ingested into the intake (think runaway!) - so it could work just fine.
I've heard of pullers running a continuous stream of ether into the engine once under boost and headed down the track. Ouch. Those are the kind of guys that use 2 cans of ether just to get the engine running.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
01-28-2010, 04:54 PM #3Don't forget about the cam in the pump. The cam in a 6-cylinder pump is designed for power cylinder events spaced at 60° intervals, not 72° intervals like a 5-cylinder. (Granted, the pump cam runs at 1/2 speed of the crankshaft...but you get where I'm going here...)
The various diesel motorsports sanctioning bodies out there have strict rules against running anything but plain water for water injection. Heck, at some events they even provide the water. That tells you that some folks have added things like methanol and the like to the water for more power and lead to an 'unfair' advantage. Diesel has such a low flash point that it probably isn't the best choice for injecting into the intake...but we all know that our diesel engines will run like crazy on engine oil ingested into the intake (think runaway!) - so it could work just fine.
I've heard of pullers running a continuous stream of ether into the engine once under boost and headed down the track. Ouch. Those are the kind of guys that use 2 cans of ether just to get the engine running.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
The diesel fuel does have a low flash point, true, but far higher than atomized gasoline, which is routinely run down the intake manifold of every carb'd car still running.
The fuel injected into the manifold once a rotation would be atomized to begin with and would be even further getting around the 'balls' in the intake port - head porters on gassers don't polish the intake runners on the head to induce turbulence and aid in finer fuel atomization. It would be no different than a throttle body injection setup in this regard and is perfectly safe.
Running a cut DV on the 'assist' injector and normal DVs on the normal injectors could solve some issues with the 'hot cam' idle of cars with cut DVs and produce a better burn but with some of the added fuel of a cut DV setup.
Of course without the cam it's pointless, and by the time you get that done you're probably at a modded pump (assuming these cheaper element swaps ever produce results). It would be kind of cool, though, people wouldn't get it at first and then their eyes would widen.
CID Vicious
01-28-2010, 07:51 PM #4That's what I'm thinking. I didn't want to shoot down my idea so fast but I knew about the cam timing being different, unfortunately. We'd have to get a cam ground to spec but custom bumpsticks don't cost as much as they used to.
The diesel fuel does have a low flash point, true, but far higher than atomized gasoline, which is routinely run down the intake manifold of every carb'd car still running.
The fuel injected into the manifold once a rotation would be atomized to begin with and would be even further getting around the 'balls' in the intake port - head porters on gassers don't polish the intake runners on the head to induce turbulence and aid in finer fuel atomization. It would be no different than a throttle body injection setup in this regard and is perfectly safe.
Running a cut DV on the 'assist' injector and normal DVs on the normal injectors could solve some issues with the 'hot cam' idle of cars with cut DVs and produce a better burn but with some of the added fuel of a cut DV setup.
Of course without the cam it's pointless, and by the time you get that done you're probably at a modded pump (assuming these cheaper element swaps ever produce results). It would be kind of cool, though, people wouldn't get it at first and then their eyes would widen.
I always thought 1 electric fuel injector and a pulse box and a small tank of diesel an electric pump and presser regulate could add some power but it would have to be in boost like LPG
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
01-28-2010, 09:17 PM #5On my 300sd with the bad comp on one cylinder it would fill up the intake tube with motor oil and every one in a while it would suck in a bunch of oil and take off like a rocket leaving the blackest cloud! but it also had it's oil return straight in to the turbo tube
I always thought 1 electric fuel injector and a pulse box and a small tank of diesel an electric pump and presser regulate could add some power but it would have to be in boost like LPG
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
When you start adding fuels to the intake, the heat of compressing 15+psi of boost to 21:1 alone will ignite most anything no matter how high its octane rating.
Even at a cold start in -10*f winters, compression is producing at least 500*f to ignite the diesel.
ForcedInduction
01-29-2010, 09:45 AM
#6
Detonation is always a major issue. Diesels can make so much power with so much boost because the fuel doesn't mix with the air until the moment of combustion.
When you start adding fuels to the intake, the heat of compressing 15+psi of boost to 21:1 alone will ignite most anything no matter how high its octane rating.
Even at a cold start in -10*f winters, compression is producing at least 500*f to ignite the diesel.
MB diesel with propane http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyOgcRoBHGQ
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
01-29-2010, 10:57 AM #7that's the great part of doing it electronically you could add a knock sensor a pressure switches and throttle switch to control it! and if propane works I do not see why a little extra diesel would not if it was atomized correctly! and we are not talking about 100hp maybe!!! 30-45
MB diesel with propane http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyOgcRoBHGQ
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
(01-29-2010, 10:57 AM)willbhere4u that's the great part of doing it electronically you could add a knock sensor a pressure switches and throttle switch to control it! and if propane works I do not see why a little extra diesel would not if it was atomized correctly! and we are not talking about 100hp maybe!!! 30-45
MB diesel with propane http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyOgcRoBHGQ
Propane also detonates when run into the intake. My diesel engine hates it.
(01-29-2010, 10:57 AM)willbhere4u that's the great part of doing it electronically you could add a knock sensor a pressure switches and throttle switch to control it! and if propane works I do not see why a little extra diesel would not if it was atomized correctly! and we are not talking about 100hp maybe!!! 30-45
MB diesel with propane http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyOgcRoBHGQ
Propane also detonates when run into the intake. My diesel engine hates it.
If there was a throttle switch to turn the system off with the gas pealed I think it would help
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
01-29-2010, 06:36 PM #9was that your car in the video? I noticed that it detonated when you let off the gas and boost held the propane on
If there was a throttle switch to turn the system off with the gas pealed I think it would help
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
(01-29-2010, 06:36 PM)willbhere4u was that your car in the video? I noticed that it detonated when you let off the gas and boost held the propane on
If there was a throttle switch to turn the system off with the gas pealed I think it would help
There is a video of my 4wd running really rough on propane, but it's a stationary video and not a mercedes either.
(01-29-2010, 06:36 PM)willbhere4u was that your car in the video? I noticed that it detonated when you let off the gas and boost held the propane on
If there was a throttle switch to turn the system off with the gas pealed I think it would help
There is a video of my 4wd running really rough on propane, but it's a stationary video and not a mercedes either.
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