Extrude Hone
Extrude Hone
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Quote:Extrude Hone is helping Jeff Garmon of Garmon Diesel Performance in McDonough, Ga., turn diesel pickup trucks into drag racing rockets that can cover the quarter mile in less than 11 seconds. Garmon says he gets a significant portion of the horsepower needed to make the big trucks move so fast by using fuel injectors treated with Extrude Hone's abrasive flow machining
Garmon builds racing pickups for the Diesel Hot Rod Association's (DHRA) Pro Street Shootout for modified street diesels. Pro Street has two truck weight classes: 5,500 lbs. for trucks burning straight diesel fuel, and 6,200 lbs. for those that inject nitrous oxide gas to produce more power.
For the 5,500 lb. class, Garmon starts with a 5.9 liter, 12-valve, inline six-cylinder Cummins engine. In stock form, the motor has a single turbocharger running 15-18 lbs of boost and direct mechanical fuel injection. Through an automatic transmission, it puts out about 140 hp. and about 365 lb./ft. of torque to the rear wheels.
To increase power, Garmon replaces the single turbocharger with two larger turbos, and hikes the boost to 80-90 psi. Engine structural changes are minimal. Garmon said he mills the pistons to drop the compression ratio from 17:1 to about 12:1. "We o-ring the heads and o-ring the blocks to keep the head gasket on, but that's about it. Stock rods, stock crank, stock block. These little engines are tough." On a dynamometer recently one of his modified engines registered 762 hp. at the rear wheels along with a staggering 1,558 lb./ft. of torque.
Garmon says the key to success is management of air and fuel. The massively increased airflow produced by the turbochargers has to be matched by a much greater flow of fuel. Accordingly, the engine's fuel injectors are enlarged to Garmon's specifications by Extrude Hone Corporation's MicroFlow abrasive machining process, which employs a low-viscosity abrasive-laden honing material. Garmon said, "They run the honing material through the injectors and enlarge them. The process makes the interior like glass. It polishes it to a slick, hard surface and makes it flow much more fuel than just making the hole big." Other racers enlarge injectors via electrical discharge machining (EDM), Garmon said, but the result, he said, is "Nasty. It's not polished."
On one of his engines, Garmon says, "you could take the Extrude Hone injectors out, put the stock ones in, and it probably would lose 250 hp."
Jim Bower, diesel injector specialist at Extrude Hone, said the company has been treating diesel injectors since the early 1970s, when the big truck OEMs sought ways to get consistent emission performance from their engines in response to tightening government emission regulations. That effort continues, as well as work on enlarged injectors to boost performance for non-commercial trucks. Those modified injectors typically increase flow by 30 percent, providing street truckers 80-90 extra horsepower. Garmon's injectors are a different story, Bower said. With orifices enlarged from about 0.008" diameter to about 0.013", flow improves 150 percent. Normally, the fuel management system of an engine couldn't handle such an increase and the motor would bog down, Bower said. In fact, he recommended against such a big change. "I told Jeff I didn't know how he could burn all that fuel," Bower said.
But Garmon Performance Diesel has its own dynamometer and Jeff Garmon repeatedly tested the high-flow injectors and tweaked timing and other elements of the fuel delivery system to produce maximum performance.
The results speak for themselves. At the May 7, 2005 DHRA meet at Beech Bend Park in Bowling Green, Ky.,
Darren Morrison, running a Garmon engine in his four-wheel-drive slick-tired Dodge Ram 2500 pickup, won first place honors and set a new DHRA record of 10.77 seconds for the quarter mile. He outpaced all the higher-powered nitrous-assisted trucks - running EDM-enlarged injectors - by more than half a second.
Garmon says he will have his own two-wheel-drive truck ready for the DHRA Diesel Nationals at Indianapolis Raceway Park, Indianapolis, Ind., June 25-26, 2005. With two customer trucks as well as his own in the running, Garmon says, "It's definitely going to be one of the three of us that's going to win, I can tell you that right now!"
Contact Extrude Hone Powerflow at 1 800-613-1065 or By Email.
Editors note: Bill Kennedy is an independent industrial and technical writer based in Latrobe, Pa.
I saw an ad for this place in Diesel Power. My initial thought is that it won't do much for our engines, but what are your thoughts?
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Quote:Extrude Hone is helping Jeff Garmon of Garmon Diesel Performance in McDonough, Ga., turn diesel pickup trucks into drag racing rockets that can cover the quarter mile in less than 11 seconds. Garmon says he gets a significant portion of the horsepower needed to make the big trucks move so fast by using fuel injectors treated with Extrude Hone's abrasive flow machining
Garmon builds racing pickups for the Diesel Hot Rod Association's (DHRA) Pro Street Shootout for modified street diesels. Pro Street has two truck weight classes: 5,500 lbs. for trucks burning straight diesel fuel, and 6,200 lbs. for those that inject nitrous oxide gas to produce more power.
For the 5,500 lb. class, Garmon starts with a 5.9 liter, 12-valve, inline six-cylinder Cummins engine. In stock form, the motor has a single turbocharger running 15-18 lbs of boost and direct mechanical fuel injection. Through an automatic transmission, it puts out about 140 hp. and about 365 lb./ft. of torque to the rear wheels.
To increase power, Garmon replaces the single turbocharger with two larger turbos, and hikes the boost to 80-90 psi. Engine structural changes are minimal. Garmon said he mills the pistons to drop the compression ratio from 17:1 to about 12:1. "We o-ring the heads and o-ring the blocks to keep the head gasket on, but that's about it. Stock rods, stock crank, stock block. These little engines are tough." On a dynamometer recently one of his modified engines registered 762 hp. at the rear wheels along with a staggering 1,558 lb./ft. of torque.
Garmon says the key to success is management of air and fuel. The massively increased airflow produced by the turbochargers has to be matched by a much greater flow of fuel. Accordingly, the engine's fuel injectors are enlarged to Garmon's specifications by Extrude Hone Corporation's MicroFlow abrasive machining process, which employs a low-viscosity abrasive-laden honing material. Garmon said, "They run the honing material through the injectors and enlarge them. The process makes the interior like glass. It polishes it to a slick, hard surface and makes it flow much more fuel than just making the hole big." Other racers enlarge injectors via electrical discharge machining (EDM), Garmon said, but the result, he said, is "Nasty. It's not polished."
On one of his engines, Garmon says, "you could take the Extrude Hone injectors out, put the stock ones in, and it probably would lose 250 hp."
Jim Bower, diesel injector specialist at Extrude Hone, said the company has been treating diesel injectors since the early 1970s, when the big truck OEMs sought ways to get consistent emission performance from their engines in response to tightening government emission regulations. That effort continues, as well as work on enlarged injectors to boost performance for non-commercial trucks. Those modified injectors typically increase flow by 30 percent, providing street truckers 80-90 extra horsepower. Garmon's injectors are a different story, Bower said. With orifices enlarged from about 0.008" diameter to about 0.013", flow improves 150 percent. Normally, the fuel management system of an engine couldn't handle such an increase and the motor would bog down, Bower said. In fact, he recommended against such a big change. "I told Jeff I didn't know how he could burn all that fuel," Bower said.
But Garmon Performance Diesel has its own dynamometer and Jeff Garmon repeatedly tested the high-flow injectors and tweaked timing and other elements of the fuel delivery system to produce maximum performance.
The results speak for themselves. At the May 7, 2005 DHRA meet at Beech Bend Park in Bowling Green, Ky.,
Darren Morrison, running a Garmon engine in his four-wheel-drive slick-tired Dodge Ram 2500 pickup, won first place honors and set a new DHRA record of 10.77 seconds for the quarter mile. He outpaced all the higher-powered nitrous-assisted trucks - running EDM-enlarged injectors - by more than half a second.
Garmon says he will have his own two-wheel-drive truck ready for the DHRA Diesel Nationals at Indianapolis Raceway Park, Indianapolis, Ind., June 25-26, 2005. With two customer trucks as well as his own in the running, Garmon says, "It's definitely going to be one of the three of us that's going to win, I can tell you that right now!"
Contact Extrude Hone Powerflow at 1 800-613-1065 or By Email.
Editors note: Bill Kennedy is an independent industrial and technical writer based in Latrobe, Pa.
GREASY_BEAST
03-03-2008, 05:15 PM #2Thats very interesting... I agree that it might not do much unless we were running bigger elements and pushing more fuel through, however, every little bit of better flow through the injectors <should> help.. I wonder what it costs?
bgkast I think it is $40/injector
If there was potential for even 10hp gain, or a 1-2mpg gain, thats nearly justifiable... just a little more than the cost of new nozzles....
GREASY_BEAST
03-03-2008, 06:25 PM #4bgkast I think it is $40/injector
If there was potential for even 10hp gain, or a 1-2mpg gain, thats nearly justifiable... just a little more than the cost of new nozzles....
EDIT: It will also increase the life of the injector nozzles by reducing cavitation.
GREASY_BEAST
03-04-2008, 03:04 PM #5I just talked to an engineering professor who teaches/studies fluid dynamics and fuel injection, among other things, and this sounds like a very good idea. What it does is effectively widen the flow path through the injector nozzle (and the injector body if they do it there too) by smoothing the sharp edges which results in less turbulence in the injector passages, increasing the diameter of the "flow tube" by a fairly large margin. This seems like even if you don't increase the fuel output of the pump (bigger elements), it will still provide a significant gain. This seems like a very worthwhile mod.
EDIT: It will also increase the life of the injector nozzles by reducing cavitation.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
Sweet Garmon Diesel has to be up the street from me and I just pulled the injectors for my project engine. I think I need to go down there and shoot the shit for a while.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
MTUPower Tell us what you find!Any news on this? Would it allow even more fuel at lower rpm- and thus more smoke? I dont want any more low rpm smoke- but I do want more low end power. Sounds contradictory... :roll: but I want more low AND high end power.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
MTUPower Tell us what you find!Any news on this? Would it allow even more fuel at lower rpm- and thus more smoke? I dont want any more low rpm smoke- but I do want more low end power. Sounds contradictory... :roll: but I want more low AND high end power.
2005 CDI heavily modified 1984 300TD - Myna pump/TMIC/enlarged PC's/HX30Super/W126 II front brakes/Vogtland springs/EGT +Boost gauges/H4 Hella's
MTUPowerMTUPower Tell us what you find!Any news on this? Would it allow even more fuel at lower rpm- and thus more smoke? I dont want any more low rpm smoke- but I do want more low end power. Sounds contradictory... :roll: but I want more low AND high end power.
Then what you really want is more airflow at lower revs, which means blower, VNT, or compounds (with a tiny HP turbo).
...Waiting with baited breath for news on whether this will do anything with our injectors... My suspicion is that it won't net a huge gain because there is only really 1 hole in our injectors, and they operate at fairly low pressures.
GREASY_BEAST
03-11-2008, 08:58 PM #11MTUPowerMTUPower Tell us what you find!Any news on this? Would it allow even more fuel at lower rpm- and thus more smoke? I dont want any more low rpm smoke- but I do want more low end power. Sounds contradictory... :roll: but I want more low AND high end power.
Then what you really want is more airflow at lower revs, which means blower, VNT, or compounds (with a tiny HP turbo).
...Waiting with baited breath for news on whether this will do anything with our injectors... My suspicion is that it won't net a huge gain because there is only really 1 hole in our injectors, and they operate at fairly low pressures.
There's another thread here on the forums where we're talking about injectors...
First of all - Jeff Garmon knows his stuff. He's been around high performance Cummins B-series turbo diesel engines for quite a while and has provided input for and built some of the fastest and quickest diesel pickup trucks out there.
Extrude hone is one method - another method is EDM EDM wiki link. Some injectors/injector nozzles are treated to both EDM and then extrude hone...
There are quite a few shops around the country that can modify your OEM injectors - usually it takes about a week turnround for non-stocked items where they don't already have cores.
Here are some of my favorite shops (in no particular order...) for high performance fuel system goodies - there are vendors all over that can deal with these suppliers - but for custom stuff - you're better off dealing with them directly:
Industrial Injection Service
Columbus Diesel Service
My injectors (5-hole by .015") in the pickup (Dodge / Cummins) were machined by JL Machine in Michigan. Quite a few of the famous HP diesel vendors use JL's services...but just slap their name on the box and mark them up a little for a profit.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
03-31-2008, 02:52 PM #12Nice to hear mention of Diesel Power magazine here in the forums. I used to have my own column in that magazine - from the first issue until a year later when their staff writers took over and kicked out most of us freelance writers. :mrgreen:
There's another thread here on the forums where we're talking about injectors...
First of all - Jeff Garmon knows his stuff. He's been around high performance Cummins B-series turbo diesel engines for quite a while and has provided input for and built some of the fastest and quickest diesel pickup trucks out there.
Extrude hone is one method - another method is EDM EDM wiki link. Some injectors/injector nozzles are treated to both EDM and then extrude hone...
There are quite a few shops around the country that can modify your OEM injectors - usually it takes about a week turnround for non-stocked items where they don't already have cores.
Here are some of my favorite shops (in no particular order...) for high performance fuel system goodies - there are vendors all over that can deal with these suppliers - but for custom stuff - you're better off dealing with them directly:
Industrial Injection Service
Columbus Diesel Service
My injectors (5-hole by .015") in the pickup (Dodge / Cummins) were machined by JL Machine in Michigan. Quite a few of the famous HP diesel vendors use JL's services...but just slap their name on the box and mark them up a little for a profit.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Has anyone sent out their injector nozzles yet to have them opened up?
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-09-2008, 01:33 PM #13Bump...
Has anyone sent out their injector nozzles yet to have them opened up?
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I have a set of injectors from a Mercedes OM617 IDI diesel that I am
trying to get a bit more power out of and have a few questions for you
about extrude honing. Will extrude honing improve the flow and power
potential of IDI injectors? Have you done this procedure on any IDI
injectors? Should the procedure be done on injectors with new nozzles
or does it make any difference? What would it cost to have a set of 5
injectors extrude honed?
Thank you
I guess I will need to keep looking into a shop that can do it for me...
I sent the following email to the Western Region Sales rep from Extrude Hone but have not heard back:
I have a set of injectors from a Mercedes OM617 IDI diesel that I am
trying to get a bit more power out of and have a few questions for you
about extrude honing. Will extrude honing improve the flow and power
potential of IDI injectors? Have you done this procedure on any IDI
injectors? Should the procedure be done on injectors with new nozzles
or does it make any difference? What would it cost to have a set of 5
injectors extrude honed?
Thank you
I guess I will need to keep looking into a shop that can do it for me...
You might want to call them and talk to someone with a pulse.
No matter what kind of company I've made attempts at contacting, I bet I have maybe a 5% success rate with them emailing me back. Getting someone on the horn is a little more time consuming, but yields much better results.
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-09-2008, 03:04 PM #15Dang - that's too bad.
You might want to call them and talk to someone with a pulse.
No matter what kind of company I've made attempts at contacting, I bet I have maybe a 5% success rate with them emailing me back. Getting someone on the horn is a little more time consuming, but yields much better results.
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I'm good friends with the owners of Triple D Performance in MN - they're a diesel performance outfit that has a really good working relationship with Industrial Injection - so they introduced me to Brady and Brett.
I'm going to see if I can get some contact info for JL...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-10-2008, 10:32 AM #17I don't have any contact names for JL, but I have talked to both Brady and Brett (Industrial Injection) in person about doing up a set of IDI injectors nearly 2 years ago. They said it was no big deal at all...
I'm good friends with the owners of Triple D Performance in MN - they're a diesel performance outfit that has a really good working relationship with Industrial Injection - so they introduced me to Brady and Brett.
I'm going to see if I can get some contact info for JL...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-10-2008, 11:36 AM #18I just exchanged a few emails with Scott Hovey - owner of Massdiesel Performance out East. He deals with John at JL Machine all the time. He said to just call them and ask for John. I'll post up the phone number in a bit.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I stand corrected - it's Jon, not John.
Jonathan Link / a.k.a. JL Machine, a.k.a J and L Machine, etc.
3483 Squires Rd
Conklin, MI 49403
(231) 853-2626
If he won't deal with Joe Schmowe off the street - we may have to go through one of the vendors. But - I'd think for a low volume deal like this - it would be better to do it this way.
Maybe drop Scott Hovey's name (from Massdiesel Performance) - that could help I guess.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-10-2008, 12:39 PM #19Got it!
I stand corrected - it's Jon, not John.
Jonathan Link / a.k.a. JL Machine, a.k.a J and L Machine, etc.
3483 Squires Rd
Conklin, MI 49403
(231) 853-2626
If he won't deal with Joe Schmowe off the street - we may have to go through one of the vendors. But - I'd think for a low volume deal like this - it would be better to do it this way.
Maybe drop Scott Hovey's name (from Massdiesel Performance) - that could help I guess.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I'm anxiously awaiting your results with opened up injector nozzles...
Every other DI diesel I've ever worked on responded quite well to larger nozzles.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-12-2008, 11:11 AM #21Excellent! 8-)
I'm anxiously awaiting your results with opened up injector nozzles...
Every other DI diesel I've ever worked on responded quite well to larger nozzles.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I recently swapped out the injectors on my daily driver VW TDI. It had .205mm nozzles (OEM is .184mm...), now it has .260mm nozzles. BIG difference in power...and of course smoke. I need to do some tuning, though...that should bring the smoke down a lot.
Here's a teeny pic of the nozzles - with my greasy fingers as the backdrop. It kinda shows the difference in them...but its hard to get a camera to focus with this sort of tricky macro shot. + I was in a hurry to get the new ones in. :twisted:
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-14-2008, 03:35 PM #23This is sorta related/on-topic...
I recently swapped out the injectors on my daily driver VW TDI. It had .205mm nozzles (OEM is .184mm...), now it has .260mm nozzles. BIG difference in power...and of course smoke. I need to do some tuning, though...that should bring the smoke down a lot.
Here's a teeny pic of the nozzles - with my greasy fingers as the backdrop. It kinda shows the difference in them...but its hard to get a camera to focus with this sort of tricky macro shot. + I was in a hurry to get the new ones in. :twisted:
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I do know that .184mm nozzles have holes so small you can barely see them with the naked eye...so the old ones being .205mm are a noticeable jump over the OEMs. The .260's I just installed are very noticeable VS. OEM nozzles. :twisted:
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-15-2008, 09:45 AM #25Indeed - but I think the old nozzles had carbon on them which doesn't help matters much.
I do know that .184mm nozzles have holes so small you can barely see them with the naked eye...so the old ones being .205mm are a noticeable jump over the OEMs. The .260's I just installed are very noticeable VS. OEM nozzles. :twisted:
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
GREASY_BEAST
04-16-2008, 12:10 AM #26Very cool pictures! Still, the TDI is direct injection, whereas the 617 is IDI. Also, the TDI has multiple holes per nozzle, whereas the 617 only has one... These are variables we need to factor in... Is there definitive evidence that anyone knows of that says hogging out IDI nozzles yields x gains in y IDI engine (preferably with a prechamber similar to the MB)? What is the governing physical principle behind this? What RPM ranges does it affect? This data has to be out there...
That said - I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that could tell you what kind of gains to expect with the MB IDIs in particular. Since mostly everything is DI these days, there aren't as many people turning up the wick on IDIs. Also - every engine responds differently to the same mods. However, for something widely modified like a Cummins ISB - there are some modifications that will produce reasonably similar results time after time.
The RPM range larger nozzle openings will affect is the whole shooting match - slow idle to fast idle. The injectors on a pump/nozzle system (IDI or DI...) are a constant while the pump is a variable. If the injector nozzles are .200mm rather than .150mm they're going to flow however much more fuel can fit through a hole that's .05mm larger throughout the entire RPM range. The added power from adding more fuel to the fire will be there down low, in the midrange and on the top end. Provided the 'new' nozzles are a pretty good jump in size, you'll feel it instantly on the old seat of the pants butt dyno.
I'm sure some of the folks in Scandinavia have messed with the injectors on MB IDIs, but they're not entirely forthcoming with information like this. I'd LOVE to see data like this for Mercedes IDIs...every other diesel that a large number of people modify out there is pretty much a given...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-16-2008, 09:55 AM #27Tractor pullers have been modifying diesels (and gassers...or even converting diesels to run on gasoline/alcohol...) for many, many years. Quite a few of these diesels from years gone by were IDIs. These pullers hogged out the fuel injectors to achieve their goals just like everyone else does with any old diesel.
That said - I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone that could tell you what kind of gains to expect with the MB IDIs in particular. Since mostly everything is DI these days, there aren't as many people turning up the wick on IDIs. Also - every engine responds differently to the same mods. However, for something widely modified like a Cummins ISB - there are some modifications that will produce reasonably similar results time after time.
The RPM range larger nozzle openings will affect is the whole shooting match - slow idle to fast idle. The injectors on a pump/nozzle system (IDI or DI...) are a constant while the pump is a variable. If the injector nozzles are .200mm rather than .150mm they're going to flow however much more fuel can fit through a hole that's .05mm larger throughout the entire RPM range. The added power from adding more fuel to the fire will be there down low, in the midrange and on the top end. Provided the 'new' nozzles are a pretty good jump in size, you'll feel it instantly on the old seat of the pants butt dyno.
I'm sure some of the folks in Scandinavia have messed with the injectors on MB IDIs, but they're not entirely forthcoming with information like this. I'd LOVE to see data like this for Mercedes IDIs...every other diesel that a large number of people modify out there is pretty much a given...
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
He said that they have not done much work on IDI injectors, but they have done some. He said that he had done some injectors for a 3 cyl Kubota IDI for a guy that was using the engine for garden tractor pulling (I had no idea there even was such a thing) and there were some fair power gains to be had in that application. He also said he had talked to some guys with 6.9/7.3L Ford Diesel trucks, but they had decided not to have the injectors worked on after talking with him. He also mentioned some other tractor puller IDI engines, but I was too tired to remember the manufactures (it was 6:30 am
hock: )He told me that the extrude honed injectors will work best on Turbocharged engines (perhaps why the Ford Guys did not do it), and that a turbo that spools quickly will work best; so they should work nicely with my new VNT.
I asked him if it makes any difference using new vs used injector nozzles and he said that it should not. He suggested opening them up 15 hundredths of an inch.
Obviously he can not guarantee any results, but he said if a set of injectors was not a huge investment he would give it a shot. The price he quoted me was $35 per injector assuming they don't need to make any special equipment to work on them. For that price plus my $20 junkyard injectors I will give it a shot. It may have to wait a month or so for funds though, my wife just audited my turbo project. :cry:
Should I try to locate a set of used 265 nozzles, or will whatever nozzles are in the junkyard injectors be OK? Other than potential damage from higher EGTs is there any other danger to my engine assuming the new injectors have a good spray pattern? I dont want to melt off my pre-chamber ball or something. :mrgreen:
After a few days of Phone tag with Jim from Extrude Hone I finally got to talk with him this morning.
He said that they have not done much work on IDI injectors, but they have done some. He said that he had done some injectors for a 3 cyl Kubota IDI for a guy that was using the engine for garden tractor pulling (I had no idea there even was such a thing) and there were some fair power gains to be had in that application. He also said he had talked to some guys with 6.9/7.3L Ford Diesel trucks, but they had decided not to have the injectors worked on after talking with him. He also mentioned some other tractor puller IDI engines, but I was too tired to remember the manufactures (it was 6:30 am hock: )
He told me that the extrude honed injectors will work best on Turbocharged engines (perhaps why the Ford Guys did not do it), and that a turbo that spools quickly will work best; so they should work nicely with my new VNT.
I asked him if it makes any difference using new vs used injector nozzles and he said that it should not. He suggested opening them up 15 hundredths of an inch.
Obviously he can not guarantee any results, but he said if a set of injectors was not a huge investment he would give it a shot. The price he quoted me was $35 per injector assuming they don't need to make any special equipment to work on them. For that price plus my $20 junkyard injectors I will give it a shot. It may have to wait a month or so for funds though, my wife just audited my turbo project. :cry:
Should I try to locate a set of used 265 nozzles, or will whatever nozzles are in the junkyard injectors be OK? Other than potential damage from higher EGTs is there any other danger to my engine assuming the new injectors have a good spray pattern? I dont want to melt off my pre-chamber ball or something. :mrgreen:
That's a lot less expensive than I thought it would be. Garden tractor pulling is gaining in popularity - it's much less expensive than a full blown tractor...and a little easier to work on since the parts are so small.
If those junkyard injectors are OK - I'd send those out...they'd notice right away if something was really wrong with them. Keep your eye on the EGT gauge - that's your best bet to determine if you're flowing way too much fuel. If the spray pattern was really bad - you should see that show up as high EGTs and lots o' smoke.
Maybe it would be a good idea to drop off the junkyard units at a pump shop to have them pop tested and checked out...that way you'd know for sure you're starting with good ones. However - more likely than not, they'll be just fine.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-17-2008, 10:20 AM #29Nice! That's great news!
That's a lot less expensive than I thought it would be. Garden tractor pulling is gaining in popularity - it's much less expensive than a full blown tractor...and a little easier to work on since the parts are so small.
If those junkyard injectors are OK - I'd send those out...they'd notice right away if something was really wrong with them. Keep your eye on the EGT gauge - that's your best bet to determine if you're flowing way too much fuel. If the spray pattern was really bad - you should see that show up as high EGTs and lots o' smoke.
Maybe it would be a good idea to drop off the junkyard units at a pump shop to have them pop tested and checked out...that way you'd know for sure you're starting with good ones. However - more likely than not, they'll be just fine.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
I was thinking I would just have them pop tested and checked for spray pattern after I have them honed. They will have to disassemble the injector to hone it (I think) which will throw off the pop pressure, and hopefully the honing will clean up the nozzle if they had a poor spray pattern before the honing. I will also want to make sure that they are just not "peeing" after the work before I install them.
I'm really looking forward to hearing about your results. 8-)
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-17-2008, 11:58 AM #31That would work too...that way you know they're good to go after they've been opened up. Popping them before/after and noting the spray pattern would be something interesting to see.
I'm really looking forward to hearing about your results. 8-)
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Holeshot- Although I don't doubt that hogging out IDI injectors has been done through the years, I am still having problems understanding WHY it gets you more power...
Heres the thing:
1) The injector pump is going to pump the same volume of fuel for a given throttle position no matter what.
2) That very same volume of fuel will exit the nozzle of the injector (minus a small amount due to line flex)
3) The size of the hole determines the rate at which the fuel will exit, because a smaller hole will result in more of the energy imparted by the pump going to flexing the line..
So as far as I can see, making a bigger hole does not allow any more fuel to be injected. It seems the only significant effect of enlarging the injector nozzle orifice is that the injection happens over a much shorter duration. Why does this make more power? It seems that if you were to lengthen the injection duration, as well as increase the injection amount, it would make more power because the cylinder pressure would be maintained for more of the down stroke, thereby resulting in more power... I am obviously missing something here, I just don't know what it is.
GREASY_BEAST
04-17-2008, 03:26 PM #32I'm very excited to hear results too!
Holeshot- Although I don't doubt that hogging out IDI injectors has been done through the years, I am still having problems understanding WHY it gets you more power...
Heres the thing:
1) The injector pump is going to pump the same volume of fuel for a given throttle position no matter what.
2) That very same volume of fuel will exit the nozzle of the injector (minus a small amount due to line flex)
3) The size of the hole determines the rate at which the fuel will exit, because a smaller hole will result in more of the energy imparted by the pump going to flexing the line..
So as far as I can see, making a bigger hole does not allow any more fuel to be injected. It seems the only significant effect of enlarging the injector nozzle orifice is that the injection happens over a much shorter duration. Why does this make more power? It seems that if you were to lengthen the injection duration, as well as increase the injection amount, it would make more power because the cylinder pressure would be maintained for more of the down stroke, thereby resulting in more power... I am obviously missing something here, I just don't know what it is.
Provided the pop pressures are equal before/after hogging out the nozzles, having a larger orifice in the nozzle will flow more fuel to where you want it to go.
On edit: If you increase the size of the 'elements' (as the Finns like to call them...) in the IP - you'll have more capacity on one end...but you're crowding the heck out of the other end. No doubt - an IP with larger elements has the potential for big gains in fuel flow...but if you don't match that up with improvements on the other end it's not going to work out terribly well. A high performance IP isn't all about fuel flow...absolutely massive HP gains can be had by accelerating the injection rate. The ability to cram a smaller amount of fuel into a shorter window (in terms of crankshaft rotation...) will net better gains than 2 or 3x the amount of fuel over a bigger window.
Common-rail injection systems got it made - they have an enormous amount of fuel available at full injection pressures (roughly 5,000psi to 25,000psi) all the time depending on engine RPM. So - to get more power out of a common-rail engine...just tell the electronic injectors to stay open longer. Or - raise the rail pressure....or - alter the injection timing....or - install larger nozzles...or - modify the high pressure fuel pump for more flow...or - install twin high pressure fuel pumps...or - do all of the above. :twisted:
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-17-2008, 03:40 PM #33Each slug of fuel that comes out of the IP, through the lines and goes towards the injector can go two places...either into the cylinder or out the overflow (low pressure return). If you can direct more of each one of those slugs of fuel towards the cylinder instead of out the return - you're likely to see some positive results in the HP/tq department.
Provided the pop pressures are equal before/after hogging out the nozzles, having a larger orifice in the nozzle will flow more fuel to where you want it to go.
On edit: If you increase the size of the 'elements' (as the Finns like to call them...) in the IP - you'll have more capacity on one end...but you're crowding the heck out of the other end. No doubt - an IP with larger elements has the potential for big gains in fuel flow...but if you don't match that up with improvements on the other end it's not going to work out terribly well. A high performance IP isn't all about fuel flow...absolutely massive HP gains can be had by accelerating the injection rate. The ability to cram a smaller amount of fuel into a shorter window (in terms of crankshaft rotation...) will net better gains than 2 or 3x the amount of fuel over a bigger window.
Common-rail injection systems got it made - they have an enormous amount of fuel available at full injection pressures (roughly 5,000psi to 25,000psi) all the time depending on engine RPM. So - to get more power out of a common-rail engine...just tell the electronic injectors to stay open longer. Or - raise the rail pressure....or - alter the injection timing....or - install larger nozzles...or - modify the high pressure fuel pump for more flow...or - install twin high pressure fuel pumps...or - do all of the above. :twisted:
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
EDIT: What about stopping up the overflow holes as well?
GREASY_BEAST
04-17-2008, 03:42 PM #34Aha! Now I get it! Thanks
EDIT: What about stopping up the overflow holes as well?
Blocking off the returns? Hrmmm...can't say I've ever heard of anyone doing that. (On edit: I deleted some stuff about the high pressure side of things...I don't think blocking off the low side will affect the high side a whole lot after thinking about it for a while...) The pressures involved with the low side dictate less robust materials and hydraulic connections - I don't think you could ever get the low pressure side to seal well enough to really make a difference... In the end, there are easier means to accomplish our goal of getting more fuel into the cylinder which provide great results. I'm not ruling out new thinking, though - love to hear it! 8-)
Also, blocking the returns wouldn't necessarily mean you now have more high pressure fuel available to exit the nozzle. The opposite is true, however since the pressure bleeds down...if you have excessive high pressure fuel - there will be more available in the returns.
On many occasions, I have heard of people blocking off the rail pressure cap on a common-rail system...but that's not even close to comparing apples to apples. That's not the proper way of getting more fuel into the cylinder (it can cause damage...) - but it sure does work well.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
04-17-2008, 04:08 PM #35You bet - I'm glad to help.
Blocking off the returns? Hrmmm...can't say I've ever heard of anyone doing that. (On edit: I deleted some stuff about the high pressure side of things...I don't think blocking off the low side will affect the high side a whole lot after thinking about it for a while...) The pressures involved with the low side dictate less robust materials and hydraulic connections - I don't think you could ever get the low pressure side to seal well enough to really make a difference... In the end, there are easier means to accomplish our goal of getting more fuel into the cylinder which provide great results. I'm not ruling out new thinking, though - love to hear it! 8-)
Also, blocking the returns wouldn't necessarily mean you now have more high pressure fuel available to exit the nozzle. The opposite is true, however since the pressure bleeds down...if you have excessive high pressure fuel - there will be more available in the returns.
On many occasions, I have heard of people blocking off the rail pressure cap on a common-rail system...but that's not even close to comparing apples to apples. That's not the proper way of getting more fuel into the cylinder (it can cause damage...) - but it sure does work well.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-01-2008, 12:35 PM #38Any updates on this project?
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-01-2008, 02:41 PM #40OK - sounds good. Thanks for the update!
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@
Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
05-10-2008, 11:41 AM #41Anybody have a rough estimate what a head port/polish would cost @ EH?
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
1) You don't want to mess around with the natural swirl that the OEMs have tried hard to accomplish. This swirl as it enters the cylinder helps to create a better environment for the fuel to burn. Get rid of the swirl and she may smoke quite a bit - even with the same fueling. Honda's highly acclaimed i-CTDi (common-rail diesel) is very serious about maximizing the amount of swirl at all RPMs/load conditions - this helps it achieve low emissions and good power for such a small engine.
2) Additional cylinder head volume = slightly slower spool. More volume in the cylinder head to fill means that it could take longer for the turbo to spool. I've heard of a handful of Cummins B-series owners saying that spool was reduced a bit after porting their head. This was 'solved' by adding more fuel.
Those two basic warnings in mind - HP gains can be had by doing this...but usually you have to add a corresponding amount of fuel afterwards to see the gains. For more power - go for it. But to do it to make your engine more efficient wouldn't be a good idea.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-10-2008, 06:19 PM #42Careful with porting heads on a diesel...
1) You don't want to mess around with the natural swirl that the OEMs have tried hard to accomplish. This swirl as it enters the cylinder helps to create a better environment for the fuel to burn. Get rid of the swirl and she may smoke quite a bit - even with the same fueling. Honda's highly acclaimed i-CTDi (common-rail diesel) is very serious about maximizing the amount of swirl at all RPMs/load conditions - this helps it achieve low emissions and good power for such a small engine.
2) Additional cylinder head volume = slightly slower spool. More volume in the cylinder head to fill means that it could take longer for the turbo to spool. I've heard of a handful of Cummins B-series owners saying that spool was reduced a bit after porting their head. This was 'solved' by adding more fuel.
Those two basic warnings in mind - HP gains can be had by doing this...but usually you have to add a corresponding amount of fuel afterwards to see the gains. For more power - go for it. But to do it to make your engine more efficient wouldn't be a good idea.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
05-11-2008, 02:31 AM #43I was already wondering about the intake runner swirl, and if that would be affected, and so you have confirmed what I was thinking. I was really only considering a port matching at most for the intake side, but at this point (unless I'm corrected) I think that polishing up the exhaust can only help for better flow through. So if the swirl is an important factor on the intake side, if one were to build a custom intake or modify existing, is it just a matter of creating turbulence for the incoming charge? Or is it some highly engineered calculated equation that a mere mortal would be unable to figure out??
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
If you were to port match the head/intake - I don't see any real big issues with this - but I will admit that you probably won't see any difference in power or economy. Doing port work on diesels is usually left for all out competition engines where you're looking for that last 20hp. I've been very surprised what can be done with OEM port work and OEM intake manifolds. All the little restrictions that hinder an NA engine aren't as apparent on a forced induction one.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-12-2008, 09:19 AM #44The swirl is created in the cylinder and is caused by intake and cylinder head designs to maximize this. At least this is how it all goes down in the DI world... You'd have to get pretty drastic with the port work to ruin the swirl to the point where it becomes an issue. From the sounds of it, your plans are mild in nature.
If you were to port match the head/intake - I don't see any real big issues with this - but I will admit that you probably won't see any difference in power or economy. Doing port work on diesels is usually left for all out competition engines where you're looking for that last 20hp. I've been very surprised what can be done with OEM port work and OEM intake manifolds. All the little restrictions that hinder an NA engine aren't as apparent on a forced induction one.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
05-12-2008, 11:13 AM #45So for us mortals at home, we could just do some hand port matching and exhaust port cleanup for refinement purposes, but no real gain will be felt or noticed?
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr So for us mortals at home, we could just do some hand port matching and exhaust port cleanup for refinement purposes, but no real gain will be felt or noticed?
Exactly. You might see gains of 5-20hp doing that if you were able to do a back-to-back dyno test. There's lots of variables at play and perhaps IDI's respond differently, but I've seen quite a few porting jobs hurt the streetable performance of a diesel more than it helped.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
05-12-2008, 12:21 PM #46Telecommbrkr So for us mortals at home, we could just do some hand port matching and exhaust port cleanup for refinement purposes, but no real gain will be felt or noticed?
Exactly. You might see gains of 5-20hp doing that if you were able to do a back-to-back dyno test. There's lots of variables at play and perhaps IDI's respond differently, but I've seen quite a few porting jobs hurt the streetable performance of a diesel more than it helped.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset You might see gains of 5-20hp doing that...
I'll take 5 to 20hp any day, add better boost, bigger exhaust, air intake, better injectors, intercooler,..........THEN start turning up the IP and a guy should be able to push 200hp with out modifications to the IP, IMO.
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
Telecommbrkr
05-12-2008, 01:40 PM #47HoleshotHolset You might see gains of 5-20hp doing that...
I'll take 5 to 20hp any day, add better boost, bigger exhaust, air intake, better injectors, intercooler,..........THEN start turning up the IP and a guy should be able to push 200hp with out modifications to the IP, IMO.
'Jurgen' - 1982 300sd cream paint with palimino MB tex interior. Now running with new cooling system
.......discovered oil cooler has pinhole @#$%@ Nitrile gloves back on......'Otto' - 1985 300sd anthracite? grey/silver? with grey leather interior. (heated front seats!!!!
) Euro headlightsMods are in the works...
(231)853-2626
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
06-30-2008, 08:32 AM #48I just found Jon Link's (from JL Machine) phone number posted in another forum - thought you guys might like to have it posted here in the event you ever want to talk to someone who's an expert with hogging out fuel injectors.
(231)853-2626
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
Thanks
08 Ram Cummins 6.7 Mega Cab 4wd Beauty & Towing Mods, 97 Ram Cummins 5.9 Extended Cab 4wd. Engine, Tansmission, and Funtional Mods, 90 Suburban 4wd Stock, 83 300D Pats Car, 80 300CD in Restoration and Fabrication Process( was non turbo...now Turbo
) 75 Ramcharger 4wd Someday Cummins Power Project
Oil Burner
10-19-2010, 02:36 PM #49Has anyone actually had their injectors honed for the IDI MB engine OM617.952 Would like to know if any of you could feel and see results? What did it actually cost you too?
Thanks
08 Ram Cummins 6.7 Mega Cab 4wd Beauty & Towing Mods, 97 Ram Cummins 5.9 Extended Cab 4wd. Engine, Tansmission, and Funtional Mods, 90 Suburban 4wd Stock, 83 300D Pats Car, 80 300CD in Restoration and Fabrication Process( was non turbo...now Turbo
) 75 Ramcharger 4wd Someday Cummins Power Project
thanks for any help related .
i was just talking to a gentleman , at Kennametal extrude honing . im trying to find out a little more about there process and if a small batch can be honed at any of there facility's. i dont even know if the 617 injectors can be "honed) so any info specs ie: flow per pulse ? pop pressure , spring differences shims etc .any changes in the injector body's diameters etc. would be greatly appreciated , also specs an DVs would be helpful as well . pics are great , so that i can email visuals to him .
thanks for any help related .
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