ForcedInduction's Air-Water intercooler
ForcedInduction's Air-Water intercooler
03-25-2009, 06:05 AM
#1
Cost was $170+40 shipping but I saved $25.50 with the coupon ($184.48).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...0130569148
I know you're going to say "but you can buy that other intercooler for $85 less!"
Well that may be true but I chose this because it eliminates two 90* airflow changes, occupies significantly less space, doesn't require being tipped up to bleed out air and leaves the battery area free to easily mount an intercooler coolant tank and blowby separator. Core volume (202.5 cu.in.) is equal to the other style.
Exact mounting location and other details are still in development for the moment so stay tuned.
This post was last modified: 04-27-2009, 03:56 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
03-25-2009, 06:05 AM
#1
I really didn't want to buy one this soon but eBay's 15% off coupon expires 4/2/09.
Cost was $170+40 shipping but I saved $25.50 with the coupon ($184.48).
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...0130569148
I know you're going to say "but you can buy that other intercooler for $85 less!"
Well that may be true but I chose this because it eliminates two 90* airflow changes, occupies significantly less space, doesn't require being tipped up to bleed out air and leaves the battery area free to easily mount an intercooler coolant tank and blowby separator. Core volume (202.5 cu.in.) is equal to the other style.
Exact mounting location and other details are still in development for the moment so stay tuned.
03-25-2009, 01:13 PM
#3
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
The latter actually uses an A/A core vs a proper A/W core from what I have been told. Which is one reason mine has not gone on yet.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
03-26-2009, 01:48 PM
#4
I agree that the straight through flow path of that IC is better, but its design is not really conducive to the non-cross flow heads on the 617. You will have to add just as many bends as the 180 degree IC, if not more, to get it to work with the engine.
There is no such thing as an air/air or air/water core. In the cores there are two flow paths, one has more area than the other. In air/air intercoolers the path with greater flow area is presented to the cooling air, and the charge air must pass through the more restrictive path. With an air/water intercooler flow paths are reversed with the charge air being directed through the path with the greater flow area, and the water through the more restrictive path.
I agree that the straight through flow path of that IC is better, but its design is not really conducive to the non-cross flow heads on the 617. You will have to add just as many bends as the 180 degree IC, if not more, to get it to work with the engine.
03-26-2009, 02:41 PM
#5
Piping losses are something to consider and may eat up all the gains made. To find out you have to try it and test it or know how to get a computer crunch numbers for a week for you.
Actually there is a difference between air/air and air/water cores if they are built right. The air/water cores (the good ones) are treated to prevent corrosion. This treatment reduces thermal conductivity some so they don't do it to all cores.
Piping losses are something to consider and may eat up all the gains made. To find out you have to try it and test it or know how to get a computer crunch numbers for a week for you.
03-26-2009, 03:35 PM
#6
There is one less 90* angle in my system. In airflow resistance, one right angle is equivalent to 10 feet of straight pipe.
I've got more parts on the way. As soon as I get my Holset turbine housing back from repair I'll be able to modify my spare 115 intake and do a bench assembly.
This post was last modified: 03-26-2009, 03:37 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
03-26-2009, 03:35 PM
#6
Water cores have significantly smaller sections for water. Water has a higher thermal conductivity per volume so reducing the coolant passage size gives the air more surface area to contact and dissipate heat.
There is one less 90* angle in my system. In airflow resistance, one right angle is equivalent to 10 feet of straight pipe.
I've got more parts on the way. As soon as I get my Holset turbine housing back from repair I'll be able to modify my spare 115 intake and do a bench assembly.
03-30-2009, 05:26 AM
#7
ForcedInduction
03-30-2009, 05:26 AM
#7
The W115 intake is 1/2 modified. I'm waiting for the turbo housings to be finished before welding the inlet on the back.
04-07-2009, 01:23 PM
#8
How nice of advan-emotion inc, they sent me 3x 3" 90* turbo hoses instead of the 2 I paid for!
ForcedInduction
04-07-2009, 01:23 PM
#8
LOL!
How nice of advan-emotion inc, they sent me 3x 3" 90* turbo hoses instead of the 2 I paid for!
09-15-2009, 01:05 AM
#9
This post was last modified: 09-15-2009, 01:07 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-15-2009, 01:05 AM
#9
I finished the mock up stage tonight, tomorrow I'll work on getting it installed.
09-15-2009, 01:19 AM
#10
'78 300D, OM617.912: 4spd manual, TB03 at 10PSI, 26*BTDC, DV's turned, HVAC, emissions system removed, e-fan, short ram, 3" downpipe to straight exhaust, W126 Bendix brakes, MR2 Spyder seats. 2890lbs
Badass! What about the sharp turbo outlet to intercooler angle?
'78 300D, OM617.912: 4spd manual, TB03 at 10PSI, 26*BTDC, DV's turned, HVAC, emissions system removed, e-fan, short ram, 3" downpipe to straight exhaust, W126 Bendix brakes, MR2 Spyder seats. 2890lbs
09-15-2009, 03:09 AM
#12
(09-15-2009, 01:19 AM)kamel Badass! What about the sharp turbo outlet to intercooler angle?
The 06 sprinter turbo I have in mock up (the $30 one with the melted turbine) has a little bit different angles and dimensions than the 03 turbo on my car. I have my fingers crossed that my eyeball measurements are close enough...
I have a 2"-3" 90* boot to connect.Quote:What radiator will you use? A/C condenser as radiator?Yes. The 5/16" ID of its tubes might be a little restrictive, but I'm betting the large surface area will make up for it. Outside the condenser it will use 5/8" tube and the stock heater pump.
Quote:Btw., do you know how the distribution of the water inside the IC is done to guaranty even water flow on the whole area?The water connections are on the opposite sides of the core. It should distribute the same as a radiator.
ForcedInduction
09-15-2009, 03:09 AM
#12
(09-15-2009, 01:19 AM)kamel Badass! What about the sharp turbo outlet to intercooler angle?
The 06 sprinter turbo I have in mock up (the $30 one with the melted turbine) has a little bit different angles and dimensions than the 03 turbo on my car. I have my fingers crossed that my eyeball measurements are close enough...
I have a 2"-3" 90* boot to connect.Quote:What radiator will you use? A/C condenser as radiator?Yes. The 5/16" ID of its tubes might be a little restrictive, but I'm betting the large surface area will make up for it. Outside the condenser it will use 5/8" tube and the stock heater pump.
Quote:Btw., do you know how the distribution of the water inside the IC is done to guaranty even water flow on the whole area?The water connections are on the opposite sides of the core. It should distribute the same as a radiator.
09-15-2009, 06:46 PM
#13
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
09-15-2009, 06:46 PM #13looks good keep it up!!! take some vids of it running!!!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
09-16-2009, 02:18 AM
#15
Flow is cold in the top (rear), hot out the bottom (front), into the heater pump, into the top of the condenser, flowing down and straight back to the top. Total capacity is 3 quarts and the pump circulates very well on its own. The pump is powered by the cruise control socket (for a convenient switched power source) with a 1amp fuse inline.
Coolant is 60/40 water/antifreeze. I would have gone leaner but I don't want to risk ice this winter.
The hoses in between are temporary, the IC was vibrating too much, I'll have to make an additional brace later on.
Filling is done though the top hose then a small funnel at the bleed vent when it reaches capacity. There is no cap, the system is cool enough that it shouldn't make any significant pressure and I left a small bubble for it to compress (though a filler neck and cap may be added later).
Of course in line with the crappy "everything is resisting my will every step of the way" weekend, I get the system 1/2 full and decided to test the pump. Nothing. Not only was the damn thing seized but it was leaking from the cover seal. So I did an impromptu pump tear-down, got the bearings freed, commutator decarboned, all the coolant residue removed and used some plastic sealant on top of the cap o-ring.
Overall I'm happy. Cruising temperatures are down 25-50*f, it takes much longer to reach 1250*f at full power (I still need more boost) and it muffles the intake noise very well (other than the turbo
). After getting off the highway the condenser inlet was 119*f and outlet was 71*f (65*f ambient).
This post was last modified: 09-16-2009, 02:22 AM by ForcedInduction.
Attached Files
Image(s)ForcedInduction
09-16-2009, 02:18 AM
#15
I'll post some more pictures later, my camera takes blurry pictures in low light.
Flow is cold in the top (rear), hot out the bottom (front), into the heater pump, into the top of the condenser, flowing down and straight back to the top. Total capacity is 3 quarts and the pump circulates very well on its own. The pump is powered by the cruise control socket (for a convenient switched power source) with a 1amp fuse inline.
Coolant is 60/40 water/antifreeze. I would have gone leaner but I don't want to risk ice this winter.
The hoses in between are temporary, the IC was vibrating too much, I'll have to make an additional brace later on.
Filling is done though the top hose then a small funnel at the bleed vent when it reaches capacity. There is no cap, the system is cool enough that it shouldn't make any significant pressure and I left a small bubble for it to compress (though a filler neck and cap may be added later).
Of course in line with the crappy "everything is resisting my will every step of the way" weekend, I get the system 1/2 full and decided to test the pump. Nothing. Not only was the damn thing seized but it was leaking from the cover seal. So I did an impromptu pump tear-down, got the bearings freed, commutator decarboned, all the coolant residue removed and used some plastic sealant on top of the cap o-ring.
Overall I'm happy. Cruising temperatures are down 25-50*f, it takes much longer to reach 1250*f at full power (I still need more boost) and it muffles the intake noise very well (other than the turbo ). After getting off the highway the condenser inlet was 119*f and outlet was 71*f (65*f ambient).
Attached Files
Image(s)
09-16-2009, 08:18 AM
#17
(09-16-2009, 02:18 AM)ForcedInduction Cruising temperatures are down 25-50*f, it takes much longer to reach 1250*f at full power
Awesome work Forced! That is a very interesting intercooler layout, and I just wish Frozen Boost made one a little smaller so we wouldn't have to cut it so close on the turbo outlet.
So is the intercooler really doing anything if your max EGTs are the same? Didn't bgkast have much lower temperatures after he installed his?
One thing you should check is the flow rate through the condenser. If you haven't paralleled it you're going to have really low flow. My roommate did some testing on his Rabbit's A/C condensor, and it had a 25psi drop across it at 2 GPM. He paralleled it and got the same flow at a much lower PSI drop (don't remember what). Using an MB aux pump he is able to get about 1 GPM.
Once again, very nice install! I need to get one in my wagon now that it is running again!
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(09-16-2009, 02:18 AM)ForcedInduction Cruising temperatures are down 25-50*f, it takes much longer to reach 1250*f at full power
Awesome work Forced! That is a very interesting intercooler layout, and I just wish Frozen Boost made one a little smaller so we wouldn't have to cut it so close on the turbo outlet.
So is the intercooler really doing anything if your max EGTs are the same? Didn't bgkast have much lower temperatures after he installed his?
One thing you should check is the flow rate through the condenser. If you haven't paralleled it you're going to have really low flow. My roommate did some testing on his Rabbit's A/C condensor, and it had a 25psi drop across it at 2 GPM. He paralleled it and got the same flow at a much lower PSI drop (don't remember what). Using an MB aux pump he is able to get about 1 GPM.
Once again, very nice install! I need to get one in my wagon now that it is running again!
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
09-16-2009, 08:56 AM
#18
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
Kind of hard to tell but is it shielded from the turbo? Any idea of the pressure loss across the IC? My plan is to take the stock head and the cheapo IC and make a single piece out of it, like the 603 on the rack.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
09-16-2009, 01:07 PM
#19
(09-16-2009, 08:18 AM)Tymbrymi so we wouldn't have to cut it so close on the turbo outlet.It would be far easier with a T3/K26 or a Holset turbo. The GT turbos are very compact compared to older designs.
Quote:So is the intercooler really doing anything if your max EGTs are the same?Its working, but it can't stop EGTs from getting high when raw fuel (black smoke) is coming out the exhaust.
Quote:Didn't bgkast have much lower temperatures after he installed his?He put it on with stock MW pump fueling.
Quote:My roommate did some testing on his Rabbit's A/C condensor, and it had a 25psi drop across it at 2 GPM. He paralleled it and got the same flow at a much lower PSI drop (don't remember what).A large pressure drop is a good thing that means its taking out a lot of heat. Low pressure drop is important in the intercooler because it would hurt performance and efficiency. In a radiator its a good thing since the longer its in there the longer it has to take out heat.
(09-16-2009, 08:56 AM)winmutt Kind of hard to tell but is it shielded from the turbo?For now, no. No time was left.
Quote:Any idea of the pressure loss across the IC?No idea yet since my boost pressure is controlled from the intake pressure. There is a fitting on the compressor housing so I can check later.
Quote:My plan is to take the stock head and the cheapo IC and make a single piece out of it, like the 603 on the rack.That is what I'll do if I make another attempt (make the outlet of the IC part of the manifold plenum).
This post was last modified: 09-17-2009, 05:41 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-16-2009, 01:07 PM
#19
(09-16-2009, 08:18 AM)Tymbrymi so we wouldn't have to cut it so close on the turbo outlet.It would be far easier with a T3/K26 or a Holset turbo. The GT turbos are very compact compared to older designs.
Quote:So is the intercooler really doing anything if your max EGTs are the same?Its working, but it can't stop EGTs from getting high when raw fuel (black smoke) is coming out the exhaust.
Quote:Didn't bgkast have much lower temperatures after he installed his?He put it on with stock MW pump fueling.
Quote:My roommate did some testing on his Rabbit's A/C condensor, and it had a 25psi drop across it at 2 GPM. He paralleled it and got the same flow at a much lower PSI drop (don't remember what).A large pressure drop is a good thing that means its taking out a lot of heat. Low pressure drop is important in the intercooler because it would hurt performance and efficiency. In a radiator its a good thing since the longer its in there the longer it has to take out heat.
(09-16-2009, 08:56 AM)winmutt Kind of hard to tell but is it shielded from the turbo?For now, no. No time was left.
Quote:Any idea of the pressure loss across the IC?No idea yet since my boost pressure is controlled from the intake pressure. There is a fitting on the compressor housing so I can check later.
Quote:My plan is to take the stock head and the cheapo IC and make a single piece out of it, like the 603 on the rack.That is what I'll do if I make another attempt (make the outlet of the IC part of the manifold plenum).
09-17-2009, 01:52 PM
#20
(09-16-2009, 01:07 PM)ForcedInduction He put it on with stock MW pump fueling.
It doesn't matter what the fueling level is... with the SAME fueling before and after, the EGTs should be lower. He didn't change his fueling at the same time as he installed the intercooler, and I don't believe you did either, so yours should be lower.
(09-16-2009, 01:07 PM)ForcedInduction A large pressure drop is a good thing that means its taking out a lot of heat. Low pressure drop is important in the intercooler because it would hurt performance and efficiency. In a radiator its a good thing since the longer its in there the longer it has to take out heat.
Huh?
If a high pressure drop hurts the efficiency of heat transfer in the intercooler why doesn't it do the same in the heat exchanger? Also, it might be nice to have it go through the radiator nice and slow since it has plenty of time to get to ambient temperature; HOWEVER, you want the flow to be as high as possible through the intercooler so that you keep the deltaT as high as possible. If the water goes through the intercooler slowly, the water temperature will reach "ambient" which means the intercooler isn't doing anything at that point.
So increasing the GPM will keep the deltaT in the intercooler high and remove much more heat, but it will decrease the efficiency of the radiator. This shouldn't be a problem though, since the radiator is an extremely large heat exchanger and is exposed to much higher CFM levels than the intercooler.
If nothing else, centrifugal pumps such as the aux. water pump do not handle high pressure well. Think of it as the surge line on a turbo map. Eventually the pump will stall out and the coolant flow will be very low.
Your system sounds just like bgkast's system before he installed the radiator. Worked great until it heat soaked. Hence the reason it takes much longer for you to get to 1250, but you still get there.
My $0.02
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(09-16-2009, 01:07 PM)ForcedInduction He put it on with stock MW pump fueling.
It doesn't matter what the fueling level is... with the SAME fueling before and after, the EGTs should be lower. He didn't change his fueling at the same time as he installed the intercooler, and I don't believe you did either, so yours should be lower.
(09-16-2009, 01:07 PM)ForcedInduction A large pressure drop is a good thing that means its taking out a lot of heat. Low pressure drop is important in the intercooler because it would hurt performance and efficiency. In a radiator its a good thing since the longer its in there the longer it has to take out heat.
Huh?
If a high pressure drop hurts the efficiency of heat transfer in the intercooler why doesn't it do the same in the heat exchanger? Also, it might be nice to have it go through the radiator nice and slow since it has plenty of time to get to ambient temperature; HOWEVER, you want the flow to be as high as possible through the intercooler so that you keep the deltaT as high as possible. If the water goes through the intercooler slowly, the water temperature will reach "ambient" which means the intercooler isn't doing anything at that point.
So increasing the GPM will keep the deltaT in the intercooler high and remove much more heat, but it will decrease the efficiency of the radiator. This shouldn't be a problem though, since the radiator is an extremely large heat exchanger and is exposed to much higher CFM levels than the intercooler.
If nothing else, centrifugal pumps such as the aux. water pump do not handle high pressure well. Think of it as the surge line on a turbo map. Eventually the pump will stall out and the coolant flow will be very low.
Your system sounds just like bgkast's system before he installed the radiator. Worked great until it heat soaked. Hence the reason it takes much longer for you to get to 1250, but you still get there.
My $0.02
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
09-17-2009, 06:16 PM
#21
(09-17-2009, 01:52 PM)Tymbrymi It doesn't matter what the fueling level is... with the SAME fueling before and after, the EGTs should be lower. He didn't change his fueling at the same time as he installed the intercooler, and I don't believe you did either, so yours should be lower.It very much matters. If the fuel ratio is rich nothing will stop the exhaust from being hot after some time, it will delay it though. My EGTs are lower anyways, I said its 25-50*f lower on the highway and it takes much longer than before to reach 1250*f.
Quote:Huh?It doesn't hurt the efficiency of the intercooler, it hurts performance of the engine.
If a high pressure drop hurts the efficiency of heat transfer in the intercooler why doesn't it do the same in the heat exchanger?
The A/C works by pumping in a hot, high pressure gas. The condenser turns that into a hot, high pressure liquid by removing latent heat. The A/C system is naturally going to have a large pressure drop since its both using a gas to push a liquid and significantly increasing density by turning into a liquid.
Quote:you want the flow to be as high as possible through the intercooler so that you keep the deltaT as high as possible.Not quite. Water has a specific thermal conductivity and that is reduced by adding coolant/antifreeze. The flow should be slow enough to make use of the water's heat capacity, too fast and it won't have time to absorb much heat.
Quote:Your system sounds just like bgkast's system before he installed the radiator. Worked great until it heat soaked. Hence the reason it takes much longer for you to get to 1250, but you still get there.The water is definitely not getting heat soaked. Overfueling is the reason I get to 1250*f. The highest I've measured was 81*f out of the cooler (78*f ambient) this afternoon immediately after a hard highway run. The IC inlet boot is hot while the elbow to the intake is cool.
ForcedInduction
09-17-2009, 06:16 PM
#21
(09-17-2009, 01:52 PM)Tymbrymi It doesn't matter what the fueling level is... with the SAME fueling before and after, the EGTs should be lower. He didn't change his fueling at the same time as he installed the intercooler, and I don't believe you did either, so yours should be lower.It very much matters. If the fuel ratio is rich nothing will stop the exhaust from being hot after some time, it will delay it though. My EGTs are lower anyways, I said its 25-50*f lower on the highway and it takes much longer than before to reach 1250*f.
Quote:Huh?It doesn't hurt the efficiency of the intercooler, it hurts performance of the engine.
If a high pressure drop hurts the efficiency of heat transfer in the intercooler why doesn't it do the same in the heat exchanger?
The A/C works by pumping in a hot, high pressure gas. The condenser turns that into a hot, high pressure liquid by removing latent heat. The A/C system is naturally going to have a large pressure drop since its both using a gas to push a liquid and significantly increasing density by turning into a liquid.
Quote:you want the flow to be as high as possible through the intercooler so that you keep the deltaT as high as possible.Not quite. Water has a specific thermal conductivity and that is reduced by adding coolant/antifreeze. The flow should be slow enough to make use of the water's heat capacity, too fast and it won't have time to absorb much heat.
Quote:Your system sounds just like bgkast's system before he installed the radiator. Worked great until it heat soaked. Hence the reason it takes much longer for you to get to 1250, but you still get there.The water is definitely not getting heat soaked. Overfueling is the reason I get to 1250*f. The highest I've measured was 81*f out of the cooler (78*f ambient) this afternoon immediately after a hard highway run. The IC inlet boot is hot while the elbow to the intake is cool.
09-17-2009, 07:12 PM
#22
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
09-17-2009, 07:12 PM #22do you notice a good amount of power or torque with the inter cooler set up forced?
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
09-17-2009, 09:00 PM
#23
I'm going to try a stiffer boost controller spring for the 3rd stage to get 18psi.
This post was last modified: 09-17-2009, 09:00 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-17-2009, 09:00 PM
#23
On the top end I do. The higher density somewhat helps make up for the extra boost I need at WOT.
I'm going to try a stiffer boost controller spring for the 3rd stage to get 18psi.
09-18-2009, 02:31 PM
#24
(09-17-2009, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction It very much matters. If the fuel ratio is rich nothing will stop the exhaust from being hot after some time, it will delay it though. My EGTs are lower anyways, I said its 25-50*f lower on the highway and it takes much longer than before to reach 1250*f.
I checked and he saw 3-400* lower temperatures overall, so it doesn't make any sense to me that your cruising temperatures would be down only 50* or so. Especially since you have that spiffy "cruise" mode on your VNT.
(09-17-2009, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction The A/C works by pumping in a hot, high pressure gas. The condenser turns that into a hot, high pressure liquid by removing latent heat. The A/C system is naturally going to have a large pressure drop since its both using a gas to push a liquid and significantly increasing density by turning into a liquid.
That's correct, but there is not a phase change taking place in the intercooler system. The pressure drop is all across the expansion valve, not across the condenser itself. So you can't compare an A/C system to an A/C system.
(09-17-2009, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction Not quite. Water has a specific thermal conductivity and that is reduced by adding coolant/antifreeze. The flow should be slow enough to make use of the water's heat capacity, too fast and it won't have time to absorb much heat.
I agree on the thermal conductivity being reduced by adding antifreeze; however, thermal conductivity is not dependent upon flow rate. Additionally, thermal conductivity and thermal capacity are two different things. The thermal conductivity does not change based on flow rate.
Go to www.lytron.com, get an account, and download their catalog. At the end of it they have all kinds of calculations/charts/etc on how this stuff works, and my interpretation of it (and another guy at work who has created Simulink models of these systems) is that we need to run a pretty good GPM (>2) to truly take advantage of the system.
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(09-17-2009, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction It very much matters. If the fuel ratio is rich nothing will stop the exhaust from being hot after some time, it will delay it though. My EGTs are lower anyways, I said its 25-50*f lower on the highway and it takes much longer than before to reach 1250*f.
I checked and he saw 3-400* lower temperatures overall, so it doesn't make any sense to me that your cruising temperatures would be down only 50* or so. Especially since you have that spiffy "cruise" mode on your VNT.
(09-17-2009, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction The A/C works by pumping in a hot, high pressure gas. The condenser turns that into a hot, high pressure liquid by removing latent heat. The A/C system is naturally going to have a large pressure drop since its both using a gas to push a liquid and significantly increasing density by turning into a liquid.
That's correct, but there is not a phase change taking place in the intercooler system. The pressure drop is all across the expansion valve, not across the condenser itself. So you can't compare an A/C system to an A/C system.
(09-17-2009, 06:16 PM)ForcedInduction Not quite. Water has a specific thermal conductivity and that is reduced by adding coolant/antifreeze. The flow should be slow enough to make use of the water's heat capacity, too fast and it won't have time to absorb much heat.
I agree on the thermal conductivity being reduced by adding antifreeze; however, thermal conductivity is not dependent upon flow rate. Additionally, thermal conductivity and thermal capacity are two different things. The thermal conductivity does not change based on flow rate.
Go to www.lytron.com, get an account, and download their catalog. At the end of it they have all kinds of calculations/charts/etc on how this stuff works, and my interpretation of it (and another guy at work who has created Simulink models of these systems) is that we need to run a pretty good GPM (>2) to truly take advantage of the system.
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
09-18-2009, 03:20 PM
#25
(09-17-2009, 06:16 PM)ForcedInductionQuote:you want the flow to be as high as possible through the intercooler so that you keep the deltaT as high as possible.Not quite. Water has a specific thermal conductivity and that is reduced by adding coolant/antifreeze. The flow should be slow enough to make use of the water's heat capacity, too fast and it won't have time to absorb much heat.
Water has a good specific heat capacity, I really doubt slowing it down would help anything. Not knowing the specifics of your system, I cannot say for sure, but from thermodynamics, the rate of heat transfer equation is:
Q=mc(delta T)
where 'm' is mass flowrate, esentially constant throughout the system
'c' is specific heat capacity
'delta T' is Tin - Tout (or Tout - Tin, depending on which side of the HX you are looking at)
and 'Q' of course is rate of heat transfer
by lowering flow, the way the system accomplishes heat transfer is by removing more 'heat' from the 'cooled' fluid by being in contact longer with the 'cooling' fluid and creating a larger delta T (the math there is slightly different, as it includes things like surface area that he fluids are in contact with, i.e. the rate of heat xfer through a solid) Anyway, you dont get 'better' cooling by slowing down either of the fluids that are involved in the heat transfer process.
Now, you can design cooling systems to be 'low flow', but generally that is not what you want as you have higher coolant temps for a larger part of the system. I think there are some truck engine cooling systems which operate this way, but that is mainly to compensate for something else where they need a lower Tout for use in another process or they have to do so for some other reason (like the ideal physical space to install a certain type of core is not there or perhaps in certain designs they may need to keep the delta T between the original heat source and the 'cooled' fluid close for some reason.)
Further, on the other side of the heat balance for the system, you have the heat being added to the 'cooled' fluid, the reason why you need a cooler to begin with. Using the same equation, by lowering flow, the 'cooled' fluid is in contact with the heat source, (the hot compressor exhaust in this case) for longer as well, initially absorbing more heat. As it absorbs more heat, its rate of heat transfer goes down as the differential temp between the two fluids approach one another(again, slightly different equation on the 'micro' level, but overall that's the effect) Again, as the delta T goes down, less heat is transfered and the end result is that for a given time period, the amount of heat transferred will be about the same.
Anyway, bottom line, by lowering flow(what happens when there is more headloss, resulting in a higher pressure differential across a HX), the system responds by having greater delta T and at best, you have equal heat removed from a similar sized HX. The ways to increase your Q would be to have a core that flows better, but has more surface area on the 'cooling' flluid side, keep your flowrates up or use something other than water to have the characteristic 'c' that would fit your system best. The best option would be to combine all the above, high flow, high surface area HXs, high flow pump and the ideal fluid for the heat xfer process, OEMs must meet other requirements like cost per unit, etc. so an OEM design will usually be just sufficient enough to get the job done, but are often far from ideal. I'm sure you could design something much better.
...unless, I totally misunderstood something along the way that was being said.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
09-18-2009, 03:20 PM #25(09-17-2009, 06:16 PM)ForcedInductionQuote:you want the flow to be as high as possible through the intercooler so that you keep the deltaT as high as possible.Not quite. Water has a specific thermal conductivity and that is reduced by adding coolant/antifreeze. The flow should be slow enough to make use of the water's heat capacity, too fast and it won't have time to absorb much heat.
Water has a good specific heat capacity, I really doubt slowing it down would help anything. Not knowing the specifics of your system, I cannot say for sure, but from thermodynamics, the rate of heat transfer equation is:
Q=mc(delta T)
where 'm' is mass flowrate, esentially constant throughout the system
'c' is specific heat capacity
'delta T' is Tin - Tout (or Tout - Tin, depending on which side of the HX you are looking at)
and 'Q' of course is rate of heat transfer
by lowering flow, the way the system accomplishes heat transfer is by removing more 'heat' from the 'cooled' fluid by being in contact longer with the 'cooling' fluid and creating a larger delta T (the math there is slightly different, as it includes things like surface area that he fluids are in contact with, i.e. the rate of heat xfer through a solid) Anyway, you dont get 'better' cooling by slowing down either of the fluids that are involved in the heat transfer process.
Now, you can design cooling systems to be 'low flow', but generally that is not what you want as you have higher coolant temps for a larger part of the system. I think there are some truck engine cooling systems which operate this way, but that is mainly to compensate for something else where they need a lower Tout for use in another process or they have to do so for some other reason (like the ideal physical space to install a certain type of core is not there or perhaps in certain designs they may need to keep the delta T between the original heat source and the 'cooled' fluid close for some reason.)
Further, on the other side of the heat balance for the system, you have the heat being added to the 'cooled' fluid, the reason why you need a cooler to begin with. Using the same equation, by lowering flow, the 'cooled' fluid is in contact with the heat source, (the hot compressor exhaust in this case) for longer as well, initially absorbing more heat. As it absorbs more heat, its rate of heat transfer goes down as the differential temp between the two fluids approach one another(again, slightly different equation on the 'micro' level, but overall that's the effect) Again, as the delta T goes down, less heat is transfered and the end result is that for a given time period, the amount of heat transferred will be about the same.
Anyway, bottom line, by lowering flow(what happens when there is more headloss, resulting in a higher pressure differential across a HX), the system responds by having greater delta T and at best, you have equal heat removed from a similar sized HX. The ways to increase your Q would be to have a core that flows better, but has more surface area on the 'cooling' flluid side, keep your flowrates up or use something other than water to have the characteristic 'c' that would fit your system best. The best option would be to combine all the above, high flow, high surface area HXs, high flow pump and the ideal fluid for the heat xfer process, OEMs must meet other requirements like cost per unit, etc. so an OEM design will usually be just sufficient enough to get the job done, but are often far from ideal. I'm sure you could design something much better.
...unless, I totally misunderstood something along the way that was being said.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
09-18-2009, 04:12 PM
#26
(09-18-2009, 03:20 PM)SurfRodder Anyway, bottom line, by lowering flow(what happens when there is more headloss, resulting in a higher pressure differential across a HX), the system responds by having greater delta T and at best, you have equal heat removed from a similar sized HX. The ways to increase your Q would be to have a core that flows better, but has more surface area on the 'cooling' flluid side, keep your flowrates up or use something other than water to have the characteristic 'c' that would fit your system best. The best option would be to combine all the above, high flow, high surface area HXs, high flow pump and the ideal fluid for the heat xfer process, OEMs must meet other requirements like cost per unit, etc. so an OEM design will usually be just sufficient enough to get the job done, but are often far from ideal. I'm sure you could design something much better.
Thanks for the excellent explanation!
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(09-18-2009, 03:20 PM)SurfRodder Anyway, bottom line, by lowering flow(what happens when there is more headloss, resulting in a higher pressure differential across a HX), the system responds by having greater delta T and at best, you have equal heat removed from a similar sized HX. The ways to increase your Q would be to have a core that flows better, but has more surface area on the 'cooling' flluid side, keep your flowrates up or use something other than water to have the characteristic 'c' that would fit your system best. The best option would be to combine all the above, high flow, high surface area HXs, high flow pump and the ideal fluid for the heat xfer process, OEMs must meet other requirements like cost per unit, etc. so an OEM design will usually be just sufficient enough to get the job done, but are often far from ideal. I'm sure you could design something much better.
Thanks for the excellent explanation!
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
09-18-2009, 04:32 PM
#27
(09-18-2009, 02:31 PM)Tymbrymi I checked and he saw 3-400* lower temperatures overall, so it doesn't make any sense to me that your cruising temperatures would be down only 50* or so. Especially since you have that spiffy "cruise" mode on your VNT.Highway EGTs can't go down 300-400*, there isn't that much heat energy to remove from boost at ~5psi.
I don't have a "cruise" mode, the 1st stage (5psi)is whats active on the highway. Reducing boost below that actually increases my EGTs.
Quote:but there is not a phase change taking place in the intercooler system.Which is part of why a low pressure drop is important. Some drop is expected from flow resistance and density change.
Quote:The pressure drop is all across the expansion valve, not across the condenser itself.Nope. A phase change comes with a significant change in pressure, especially with a compressible gas going to a non compressible liquid.
Quote:thermal conductivity and thermal capacity are two different things. The thermal conductivity does not change based on flow rate.They are related. Water has a large heat capacity and it needs time to absorb.
This post was last modified: 09-18-2009, 04:33 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-18-2009, 04:32 PM
#27
(09-18-2009, 02:31 PM)Tymbrymi I checked and he saw 3-400* lower temperatures overall, so it doesn't make any sense to me that your cruising temperatures would be down only 50* or so. Especially since you have that spiffy "cruise" mode on your VNT.Highway EGTs can't go down 300-400*, there isn't that much heat energy to remove from boost at ~5psi.
I don't have a "cruise" mode, the 1st stage (5psi)is whats active on the highway. Reducing boost below that actually increases my EGTs.
Quote:but there is not a phase change taking place in the intercooler system.Which is part of why a low pressure drop is important. Some drop is expected from flow resistance and density change.
Quote:The pressure drop is all across the expansion valve, not across the condenser itself.Nope. A phase change comes with a significant change in pressure, especially with a compressible gas going to a non compressible liquid.
Quote:thermal conductivity and thermal capacity are two different things. The thermal conductivity does not change based on flow rate.They are related. Water has a large heat capacity and it needs time to absorb.
09-18-2009, 09:42 PM
#29
It did make a difference, but with that engine knocking I never pushed the engine hard enough to make much use of it. I sold the A/A core on ebay a few months ago.
ForcedInduction
09-18-2009, 09:42 PM
#29
Its been a long time since I had that on. Most of that would be posted on Mercedes Shop or Schuman.
It did make a difference, but with that engine knocking I never pushed the engine hard enough to make much use of it. I sold the A/A core on ebay a few months ago.
09-18-2009, 10:37 PM
#30
(09-18-2009, 04:32 PM)ForcedInduction(09-18-2009, 02:31 PM)Tymbrymi I checked and he saw 3-400* lower temperatures overall, so it doesn't make any sense to me that your cruising temperatures would be down only 50* or so. Especially since you have that spiffy "cruise" mode on your VNT.Highway EGTs can't go down 300-400*, there isn't that much heat energy to remove from boost at ~5psi.
I don't have a "cruise" mode, the 1st stage (5psi)is whats active on the highway. Reducing boost below that actually increases my EGTs.
Quote:but there is not a phase change taking place in the intercooler system.Which is part of why a low pressure drop is important. Some drop is expected from flow resistance and density change.
Quote:The pressure drop is all across the expansion valve, not across the condenser itself.Nope. A phase change comes with a significant change in pressure, especially with a compressible gas going to a non compressible liquid.
Quote:thermal conductivity and thermal capacity are two different things. The thermal conductivity does not change based on flow rate.They are related. Water has a large heat capacity and it needs time to absorb.
Have you had this car on a dyno? I would be really curious to see how it performs. I read in one of your other posts that it was nearing 180 hp ... inquiring minds want to know
larryratcliff
09-18-2009, 10:37 PM #30(09-18-2009, 04:32 PM)ForcedInduction(09-18-2009, 02:31 PM)Tymbrymi I checked and he saw 3-400* lower temperatures overall, so it doesn't make any sense to me that your cruising temperatures would be down only 50* or so. Especially since you have that spiffy "cruise" mode on your VNT.Highway EGTs can't go down 300-400*, there isn't that much heat energy to remove from boost at ~5psi.
I don't have a "cruise" mode, the 1st stage (5psi)is whats active on the highway. Reducing boost below that actually increases my EGTs.
Quote:but there is not a phase change taking place in the intercooler system.Which is part of why a low pressure drop is important. Some drop is expected from flow resistance and density change.
Quote:The pressure drop is all across the expansion valve, not across the condenser itself.Nope. A phase change comes with a significant change in pressure, especially with a compressible gas going to a non compressible liquid.
Quote:thermal conductivity and thermal capacity are two different things. The thermal conductivity does not change based on flow rate.They are related. Water has a large heat capacity and it needs time to absorb.
Have you had this car on a dyno? I would be really curious to see how it performs. I read in one of your other posts that it was nearing 180 hp ... inquiring minds want to know
09-18-2009, 10:49 PM
#31
(09-18-2009, 10:37 PM)larryratcliff Have you had this car on a dyno?Soon. I still want to adjust the cam timing (offset key), get the better injectors in and get the boost psi where it needs to be.
For sure not 180. The 5.5mm plungers can't move enough fuel for more than ~145hp, though the VNT turbo and intercooler may increase power a bit through efficiency as it did on my 240.
This post was last modified: 09-18-2009, 10:51 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-18-2009, 10:49 PM
#31
(09-18-2009, 10:37 PM)larryratcliff Have you had this car on a dyno?Soon. I still want to adjust the cam timing (offset key), get the better injectors in and get the boost psi where it needs to be.
For sure not 180. The 5.5mm plungers can't move enough fuel for more than ~145hp, though the VNT turbo and intercooler may increase power a bit through efficiency as it did on my 240.
09-19-2009, 09:47 AM
#32
(09-18-2009, 04:32 PM)ForcedInduction Highway EGTs can't go down 300-400*, there isn't that much heat energy to remove from boost at ~5psi.
Makes sense!
(09-18-2009, 04:32 PM)ForcedInduction I don't have a "cruise" mode, the 1st stage (5psi)is whats active on the highway. Reducing boost below that actually increases my EGTs.
Well, that's what I was meaning by cruise mode.
I haven't been actively following the details of your mechanical controllers since I don't plan on using them myself, although you have demonstrated that they do work quite well. 
Also, fair enough on reducing the boost equals an increase in EGTs, since 5psi is apparently what is needed to burn all the fuel and have enough air mass to keep the EGTs down. (09-18-2009, 04:32 PM)ForcedInduction They are related. Water has a large heat capacity and it needs time to absorb.
Did you read SurfRodder's post?
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(09-18-2009, 04:32 PM)ForcedInduction Highway EGTs can't go down 300-400*, there isn't that much heat energy to remove from boost at ~5psi.
Makes sense!
(09-18-2009, 04:32 PM)ForcedInduction I don't have a "cruise" mode, the 1st stage (5psi)is whats active on the highway. Reducing boost below that actually increases my EGTs.
Well, that's what I was meaning by cruise mode.
I haven't been actively following the details of your mechanical controllers since I don't plan on using them myself, although you have demonstrated that they do work quite well. Also, fair enough on reducing the boost equals an increase in EGTs, since 5psi is apparently what is needed to burn all the fuel and have enough air mass to keep the EGTs down. (09-18-2009, 04:32 PM)ForcedInduction They are related. Water has a large heat capacity and it needs time to absorb.
Did you read SurfRodder's post?
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
09-20-2009, 04:19 AM
#33
This post was last modified: 09-20-2009, 04:27 AM by ForcedInduction.
Attached Files
Image(s)ForcedInduction
09-20-2009, 04:19 AM
#33
Here is a better picture. The orange is some leftover A/C dye from the condenser, I've purged it all out now.
Attached Files
Image(s)
09-29-2009, 11:26 AM
#34
Good, the filler neck and cap are installed and work.
![[Image: LMNicradcap9-29-09.jpg]](http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/turbo617/temp/LMNicradcap9-29-09.jpg)
Bad, I've learned that air is being pumped into the water core when boost is above 15psi more than a few seconds.
Seen here as coolant puking out the 1.1bar cap.
![[Image: Picture2.jpg]](http://i128.photobucket.com/albums/p169/turbo617/temp/Picture2.jpg)
This post was last modified: 09-29-2009, 11:29 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-29-2009, 11:26 AM
#34
Good news, bad news.
Good, the filler neck and cap are installed and work.
Bad, I've learned that air is being pumped into the water core when boost is above 15psi more than a few seconds.
Seen here as coolant puking out the 1.1bar cap.
10-02-2009, 01:41 AM
#36
Here is video of the event: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znpJXqlGfx0
Reviewing the video again, I see its not immediately venting water under pressure. Boost is 17psi about as soon as the throttle is floored (0:29 of the video) and the water does not vent until 15 seconds later (0:44). Could the pressure just be from the expansion of the water as its heated by the boost? The water outlet was warm, but not too hot to hold, and the water inlet was near ambient.
If thats the case, an expansion chamber should fix the problem.
ForcedInduction
10-02-2009, 01:41 AM
#36
Could it not be a leak? There has been no water loss at all and limiting boost to 10psi hasn't produced 10psi in the cooling system.
Here is video of the event: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znpJXqlGfx0
Reviewing the video again, I see its not immediately venting water under pressure. Boost is 17psi about as soon as the throttle is floored (0:29 of the video) and the water does not vent until 15 seconds later (0:44). Could the pressure just be from the expansion of the water as its heated by the boost? The water outlet was warm, but not too hot to hold, and the water inlet was near ambient.
If thats the case, an expansion chamber should fix the problem.
10-04-2009, 04:29 PM
#38
(10-02-2009, 01:41 AM)ForcedInduction Could the pressure just be from the expansion of the water as its heated by the boost?
quite likely and an expansion tank would be an easy and cheap way to verify... you could even put a level sensor in there and monitor it on the fly
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
10-04-2009, 04:29 PM #38(10-02-2009, 01:41 AM)ForcedInduction Could the pressure just be from the expansion of the water as its heated by the boost?
quite likely and an expansion tank would be an easy and cheap way to verify... you could even put a level sensor in there and monitor it on the fly
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
10-05-2009, 12:22 AM
#39
The main reason was self purging of air, but the expansion control was a nice side benefit. I wasn't expecting to boil the water so a pressure cap wasn't needed.
Last time I ran an air/water system it was open. The reservoir on the suction side of the pump was a bottle 2/3 full, the outlet from the water/air cooler dumped into that.
The main reason was self purging of air, but the expansion control was a nice side benefit. I wasn't expecting to boil the water so a pressure cap wasn't needed.
03-16-2011, 09:33 AM
#40
The engine has two separate cooling systems, one to cool the engine and a second one to cool the boost air.
Both systems are separate except for two connection points. These connection points allow an expansion tank and pressure cap (1.1bar) to be shared, eliminating the large tank on the fender.
The two systems are coupled together at the radiator's old expansion tank hose to the outlet side of the circulation pump and the radiator's air vent hose to the in-cabin 1L expansion tank. The bottom tee has a 1mm orifice for level equalization and the top tee has a 2mm orifice for air bleeding and fluid expansion.
The hose angle has been changed to reduce the hose movement from engine vibration that was causing a hose hold-down clamp to break. It also allows the fill point to be located 1/2" higher than before.
The circulation pump is always running with the ignition on.
EDIT: I just realized I have never posted a picture of the expansion tank.
This post was last modified: 03-16-2011, 09:53 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
03-16-2011, 09:33 AM
#40
Update. Combo system V2.
The engine has two separate cooling systems, one to cool the engine and a second one to cool the boost air.
Both systems are separate except for two connection points. These connection points allow an expansion tank and pressure cap (1.1bar) to be shared, eliminating the large tank on the fender.
The two systems are coupled together at the radiator's old expansion tank hose to the outlet side of the circulation pump and the radiator's air vent hose to the in-cabin 1L expansion tank. The bottom tee has a 1mm orifice for level equalization and the top tee has a 2mm orifice for air bleeding and fluid expansion.
The hose angle has been changed to reduce the hose movement from engine vibration that was causing a hose hold-down clamp to break. It also allows the fill point to be located 1/2" higher than before.
The circulation pump is always running with the ignition on.
EDIT: I just realized I have never posted a picture of the expansion tank.
03-16-2011, 11:27 AM
#41
(03-16-2011, 09:33 AM)ForcedInduction Update. Combo system V2.
The engine has two separate cooling systems, one to cool the engine and a second one to cool the boost air.
Both systems are separate except for two connection points.
I was just wondering if for those who have an automatic radiator (with tranny cooler in bottom cap) but have manual transmission installed,
would that cooler be low enough in temp and remove enough heat to work as an A/W IC water radiator?
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(03-16-2011, 09:33 AM)ForcedInduction Update. Combo system V2.
The engine has two separate cooling systems, one to cool the engine and a second one to cool the boost air.
Both systems are separate except for two connection points.
I was just wondering if for those who have an automatic radiator (with tranny cooler in bottom cap) but have manual transmission installed,
would that cooler be low enough in temp and remove enough heat to work as an A/W IC water radiator?
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
03-16-2011, 12:08 PM
#42
ForcedInduction
03-16-2011, 12:08 PM
#42
At operating temperature the water coming out of the radiator is usually around 130*f.
03-16-2011, 05:31 PM
#44
ForcedInduction
03-16-2011, 05:31 PM
#44
No. The goal with all intercoolers is to get the air as close to ambient as possible.
03-16-2011, 07:21 PM
#45
(03-16-2011, 03:26 PM)Syncro_G(03-16-2011, 12:08 PM)ForcedInduction At operating temperature the water coming out of the radiator is usually around 130*f.
And the goal I assume is to get the charge air down to 100-130 *F
If the water's 130f there's no way the charge air is gonna be 130f, it'll be above. You'll lose 30% or so of your charge cooling that way. And it's just a tube with no fins... not very good at dispersing heat either.
This post was last modified: 03-16-2011, 07:23 PM by aaa.
(03-16-2011, 03:26 PM)Syncro_G(03-16-2011, 12:08 PM)ForcedInduction At operating temperature the water coming out of the radiator is usually around 130*f.
And the goal I assume is to get the charge air down to 100-130 *F
If the water's 130f there's no way the charge air is gonna be 130f, it'll be above. You'll lose 30% or so of your charge cooling that way. And it's just a tube with no fins... not very good at dispersing heat either.
03-17-2011, 02:50 PM
#46
1. Where is the AC condenser? On the outlet side of the pump I assume...
2. Cooled water coming from the AC condenser / Radiator expansion Tee (1mm orifice) is going through the insulated hose over the fender?
3. Both vent hoses are connected via the 2mm orifice, that makes sense. Where is the orifice, in radiator vent hose or IC vent hose?
4. The expansion tank is sealed? Only one hose going to it?
5. What is the other small tank in place of the battery with he hose that also looks like it is going to the fill point?
6. What did you use for the orifices?
7. Where did you get the fill point and cap?
Think that's it...
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
03-17-2011, 02:50 PM #46Cool setup! Got some questions here; maybe just clarification on pictures...
1. Where is the AC condenser? On the outlet side of the pump I assume...
2. Cooled water coming from the AC condenser / Radiator expansion Tee (1mm orifice) is going through the insulated hose over the fender?
3. Both vent hoses are connected via the 2mm orifice, that makes sense. Where is the orifice, in radiator vent hose or IC vent hose?
4. The expansion tank is sealed? Only one hose going to it?
5. What is the other small tank in place of the battery with he hose that also looks like it is going to the fill point?
6. What did you use for the orifices?
7. Where did you get the fill point and cap?
Think that's it...
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
03-17-2011, 06:02 PM
#47
(03-17-2011, 02:50 PM)Captain America 1. Where is the AC condenser? On the outlet side of the pump I assume.Stock location. The pump pulls through the radiator/condenser and blows the water uphill to the intercooler.
Quote:2. Cooled water coming from the AC condenser / Radiator expansion Tee (1mm orifice) is going through the insulated hose over the fender?Yes.
Quote:3. Both vent hoses are connected via the 2mm orifice, that makes sense. Where is the orifice, in radiator vent hose or IC vent hose?Its in the radiator side of the brass tee.
Quote:4. The expansion tank is sealed? Only one hose going to it?Yes. It has to be sealed so an air pocket will be trapped inside.
Quote:5. What is the other small tank in place of the battery with he hose that also looks like it is going to the fill point?Catch tank. Since the relief cap is at water level any pressure venting would push out fluid and vacuum from contraction would suck in air. The catch tank both gives water someplace to go and lets the system suck water back in as it cools.
Quote:6. What did you use for the orifices?Brass allen socket hole plugs.
![[Image: 190497523855_0.jpg]](http://thumbs.ebaystatic.com/pict/190497523855_0.jpg)
Quote:7. Where did you get the fill point and cap?eBay. Its original application is on a Honda Goldwing motorcycle.
ForcedInduction
03-17-2011, 06:02 PM
#47
(03-17-2011, 02:50 PM)Captain America 1. Where is the AC condenser? On the outlet side of the pump I assume.Stock location. The pump pulls through the radiator/condenser and blows the water uphill to the intercooler.
Quote:2. Cooled water coming from the AC condenser / Radiator expansion Tee (1mm orifice) is going through the insulated hose over the fender?Yes.
Quote:3. Both vent hoses are connected via the 2mm orifice, that makes sense. Where is the orifice, in radiator vent hose or IC vent hose?Its in the radiator side of the brass tee.
Quote:4. The expansion tank is sealed? Only one hose going to it?Yes. It has to be sealed so an air pocket will be trapped inside.
Quote:5. What is the other small tank in place of the battery with he hose that also looks like it is going to the fill point?Catch tank. Since the relief cap is at water level any pressure venting would push out fluid and vacuum from contraction would suck in air. The catch tank both gives water someplace to go and lets the system suck water back in as it cools.
Quote:6. What did you use for the orifices?Brass allen socket hole plugs.
Quote:7. Where did you get the fill point and cap?eBay. Its original application is on a Honda Goldwing motorcycle.
03-17-2011, 07:11 PM
#48
You just crew the pipe plugs directly into the hose I assume?
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
03-17-2011, 07:11 PM #48ohhh cool! So you basically converted the coolant system from a closed loop to an open loop... In a way
You just crew the pipe plugs directly into the hose I assume?
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
03-18-2011, 08:18 AM
#49
(03-17-2011, 07:11 PM)Captain America You just screw the pipe plugs directly into the hose I assume?
Into the tee's. The plugs have the orifices drilled into them.
ForcedInduction
03-18-2011, 08:18 AM
#49
(03-17-2011, 07:11 PM)Captain America You just screw the pipe plugs directly into the hose I assume?
Into the tee's. The plugs have the orifices drilled into them.
05-05-2011, 02:00 PM
#50
![[Image: untitled-1.jpg]](http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h183/foxcrf450rider/untitled-1.jpg)
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
Captain America
05-05-2011, 02:00 PM #50Here is my interpretation on his latest system:
1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag
AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....
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