Intercooler made with air conditioning?
Intercooler made with air conditioning?
i've been looking into different intercoolers and was wondering why people havent used an air to air conditioning unit instead of an air to air or air to water. Is it possible to use the air conditioner to cool the air? wouldn't that be bettter because you could get below ambient temperature?
For example, lets say the air conditioner takes 10hp to cool the inlet charge-and having cold air only gives you +8hp. Or something like that.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
02-28-2012, 10:32 AM #2The energy is would take to cool the incoming air would negate any horsepower gains you saw.
For example, lets say the air conditioner takes 10hp to cool the inlet charge-and having cold air only gives you +8hp. Or something like that.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
(02-28-2012, 11:46 AM)jkoch10 also i have read that every 10 degrees dropped will give you a 1% increase in hp wouldnt that outweigh what the ac takes? 200hp engine drops an extra 70 degrees would get you 14hp
only one way to know for sure...keep us posted!
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
02-28-2012, 12:02 PM #4(02-28-2012, 11:46 AM)jkoch10 also i have read that every 10 degrees dropped will give you a 1% increase in hp wouldnt that outweigh what the ac takes? 200hp engine drops an extra 70 degrees would get you 14hp
only one way to know for sure...keep us posted!
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
02-28-2012, 12:23 PM #5I don't think it will work, but if you feel like trying I'd love to know how it turns out
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Graminal95
02-28-2012, 01:31 PM #7I have read that the GM compressor that MB uses in the W123's consumes 8hp at higher RPM.
They worked like an air:water IC, except they ran refrigerant through the core instead of water.
With the intracoolers, IAT's were indeed below ambient temp...but I don't remember this setup providing a huge advantage over more traditional air:air or air:water intercoolers.
That said, I'm not convinced that any of these setups properly sized the compressor + evaporator core(s) + receiver dryer + condensor to work with both the vehicle HVAC and the intracooler. Perhaps properly sizing the rest of the system would have yielded better results, but a dense, cool air charge at the intake is only one piece of the puzzle. They're complex, no doubt.
With diesels being a compression ignition engine requiring a certain amount of heat in the intake air charge for complete combustion...there is probably a crossover point where you see diminishing returns. I could be wrong, it does happen. Good thought, though. I'd love to see someone bring back these setups!
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
02-29-2012, 01:04 AM #8Back in my GM turbo gasser days, there were a few guys with GMC Syclone/Typhoon trucks on the email list/forums running what were called intracoolers. I'm not sure if this was their officially accepted name, but that's what we referred to them as.
They worked like an air:water IC, except they ran refrigerant through the core instead of water.
With the intracoolers, IAT's were indeed below ambient temp...but I don't remember this setup providing a huge advantage over more traditional air:air or air:water intercoolers.
That said, I'm not convinced that any of these setups properly sized the compressor + evaporator core(s) + receiver dryer + condensor to work with both the vehicle HVAC and the intracooler. Perhaps properly sizing the rest of the system would have yielded better results, but a dense, cool air charge at the intake is only one piece of the puzzle. They're complex, no doubt.
With diesels being a compression ignition engine requiring a certain amount of heat in the intake air charge for complete combustion...there is probably a crossover point where you see diminishing returns. I could be wrong, it does happen. Good thought, though. I'd love to see someone bring back these setups!
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
NapaBavarian
03-01-2012, 11:16 AM #10Probably more usefull in a high boost engine, there are logical arguements either way. If your inlet charge is 100*c it probably would be a loss over air/air or air/water, but if you had crazy boost and 300*c to cool off perhaps it could offer an advantage over air/water, the theory being the bigger the temperature differential the more quickly heat will transfer, on a warm day your water in air/water could be over ambiant temperature, while the core could be the same temp as your refrigerator or perhaps even your deep freeze.
The lower IAT gave him a gain of about 45bhp from 600 up to 645bhp.....
Mercedes Benz W210 E-Class 320CDI, lowered 2.5", 18" AMG wheels, Decat, EGR removed, Tumble flaps removed, C30 AMG injectors, 400kpa MAP, Custom GT2566XTV turbo, SW tweaked to 300+hp/750Nm
I know of an MB E55 AMG Compressor which uses A/C for intercooling.
The lower IAT gave him a gain of about 45bhp from 600 up to 645bhp.....
Mercedes Benz W210 E-Class 320CDI, lowered 2.5", 18" AMG wheels, Decat, EGR removed, Tumble flaps removed, C30 AMG injectors, 400kpa MAP, Custom GT2566XTV turbo, SW tweaked to 300+hp/750Nm
I think the laws of thermodynamics are being misapplied in some responses, you cant get more energy out of the same amount of fuel, thats for sure, so your efficiency would decrease. However surely cooler air would increase peak power by allowing more fuel to be burnt, but sap a little from the top end, kind of in the same way that a supercharger does.. the question is is the cost of the refrigerant process greater than than the gain in power by being able to burn more fuel.
HoleshotHolset
03-07-2012, 10:50 PM #14^^^bingo.
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
03-08-2012, 10:15 AM #15You could use the condenser as a radiator for an water to air setup
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
Ed
yankneck696
03-08-2012, 06:00 PM #16Best bet is to use the AC to cool a resivior of water. Then water to air. Use a Chrysler minivan "dual AC" compressor. Been there, done that on a Shelby 2.2 powered Bradley GT kitcar... Ran stupid power on camel piss....
Ed
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