STD Tuning Engine water injection vs intercooler?

water injection vs intercooler?

water injection vs intercooler?

 
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ronnie
GT2559V

179
07-11-2012, 05:22 PM #1
On my 240 turbo (616 engine) I currently do not have either, but it has been suggested once I have larger elements in I should be looking at an intercooler. There is a very good article in Hot Rod magizine about when you should consider one. Basically around 10 psi boost and above there are real gains from having one.

However water injection cools the intake charge a good bit, is this a realistic alternative? My reason for thinking it could be is because boost is really only around 5-6 at highway speed, and higher only for short amounts of time for passing, hills etc. The water injection would be boost controlled. Currently boost reachs about 12 psi. So cooling the intake charge is really only needed for the short duration of higher boost levels.

Am I nuts or is this reasonable?
ronnie
07-11-2012, 05:22 PM #1

On my 240 turbo (616 engine) I currently do not have either, but it has been suggested once I have larger elements in I should be looking at an intercooler. There is a very good article in Hot Rod magizine about when you should consider one. Basically around 10 psi boost and above there are real gains from having one.

However water injection cools the intake charge a good bit, is this a realistic alternative? My reason for thinking it could be is because boost is really only around 5-6 at highway speed, and higher only for short amounts of time for passing, hills etc. The water injection would be boost controlled. Currently boost reachs about 12 psi. So cooling the intake charge is really only needed for the short duration of higher boost levels.

Am I nuts or is this reasonable?

RICHIS
Naturally-aspirated

7
07-11-2012, 05:26 PM #2
(07-11-2012, 05:22 PM)ronnie On my 240 turbo (616 engine) I currently do not have either, but it has been suggested once I have larger elements in I should be looking at an intercooler. There is a very good article in Hot Rod magizine about when you should consider one. Basically around 10 psi boost and above there are real gains from having one.

However water injection cools the intake charge a good bit, is this a realistic alternative? My reason for thinking it could be is because boost is really only around 5-6 at highway speed, and higher only for short amounts of time for passing, hills etc. The water injection would be boost controlled. Currently boost reachs about 12 psi. So cooling the intake charge is really only needed for the short duration of higher boost levels.

Am I nuts or is this reasonable?

id like peoples opnions on this too as my w202 doesnt seem to be the easyest to upgrade to a bigger fmic but was thinkin goin for chemical cooling with a 25% meth mix with the water.
RICHIS
07-11-2012, 05:26 PM #2

(07-11-2012, 05:22 PM)ronnie On my 240 turbo (616 engine) I currently do not have either, but it has been suggested once I have larger elements in I should be looking at an intercooler. There is a very good article in Hot Rod magizine about when you should consider one. Basically around 10 psi boost and above there are real gains from having one.

However water injection cools the intake charge a good bit, is this a realistic alternative? My reason for thinking it could be is because boost is really only around 5-6 at highway speed, and higher only for short amounts of time for passing, hills etc. The water injection would be boost controlled. Currently boost reachs about 12 psi. So cooling the intake charge is really only needed for the short duration of higher boost levels.

Am I nuts or is this reasonable?

id like peoples opnions on this too as my w202 doesnt seem to be the easyest to upgrade to a bigger fmic but was thinkin goin for chemical cooling with a 25% meth mix with the water.

Kozuka
I'm_Badass

334
07-11-2012, 06:41 PM #3
I was under the impression, cooling effect from w/m injection was marginal, mostly it was done because it gave abit more power with the extra methanol fuel.

1983 300TD : 4 Speed : SLS Delete : More. Daily Deathcab
1987 190E/16v/OM603 : 5 Speed : SLS Delete : Lots More..W201 Project
Kozuka
07-11-2012, 06:41 PM #3

I was under the impression, cooling effect from w/m injection was marginal, mostly it was done because it gave abit more power with the extra methanol fuel.


1983 300TD : 4 Speed : SLS Delete : More. Daily Deathcab
1987 190E/16v/OM603 : 5 Speed : SLS Delete : Lots More..W201 Project

raysorenson
Superturbo

1,162
07-11-2012, 07:44 PM #4
Water injection sucks. Not the helpful insight you're looking for, but I figured I'd get it out of the way first. My personal experience with it is on a gasburner and it was a nice setup with a duty cycle solenoid to regulate the amount injected based on fuel injector pulse width and I had pressure accumulators installed to make sure pressure didn't drop or spike. It was a newer car and I had a great datalogger to check out all sorts of data. Power gains were inconsistent.

Expect a rise in hydrocarbon emissions with W/I, which means unburned fuel. Water doesn't burn, so it's at best an additional inert gas introduced into the combustion chamber diluting the oxygen concentration and reducing the likelihood that all of your diesel fuel droplets will bump up against an O2 molecule and burn. At worst, the water droplets don't vaporize and you don't get the cooling ability of water's latent heat of vaporization. Don't worry if the water doesn't evaporate in time though, it will prevent enough combution to keep your motor cool and maybe even cool your exhaust gasses enough to slow down your turbo.

There is simply no comparison between W/I and an efficient intercooler with minimal restriction. A good intercooler with no pressure drop will not only cool the incoming air, it will increase the mass of air entering the engine with less increase in power (backpressure) required to drive the turbine compared to simply increasing boost to achieve the same mass of airflow. It's like magic.
raysorenson
07-11-2012, 07:44 PM #4

Water injection sucks. Not the helpful insight you're looking for, but I figured I'd get it out of the way first. My personal experience with it is on a gasburner and it was a nice setup with a duty cycle solenoid to regulate the amount injected based on fuel injector pulse width and I had pressure accumulators installed to make sure pressure didn't drop or spike. It was a newer car and I had a great datalogger to check out all sorts of data. Power gains were inconsistent.

Expect a rise in hydrocarbon emissions with W/I, which means unburned fuel. Water doesn't burn, so it's at best an additional inert gas introduced into the combustion chamber diluting the oxygen concentration and reducing the likelihood that all of your diesel fuel droplets will bump up against an O2 molecule and burn. At worst, the water droplets don't vaporize and you don't get the cooling ability of water's latent heat of vaporization. Don't worry if the water doesn't evaporate in time though, it will prevent enough combution to keep your motor cool and maybe even cool your exhaust gasses enough to slow down your turbo.

There is simply no comparison between W/I and an efficient intercooler with minimal restriction. A good intercooler with no pressure drop will not only cool the incoming air, it will increase the mass of air entering the engine with less increase in power (backpressure) required to drive the turbine compared to simply increasing boost to achieve the same mass of airflow. It's like magic.

sassparilla_kid
diesel > all other fuels

1,618
07-11-2012, 09:46 PM #5
Well I guess that sums it up. lol

-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
07-11-2012, 09:46 PM #5

Well I guess that sums it up. lol


-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!

larsalan
Superturbo

1,272
07-12-2012, 06:37 AM #6
No, that doesn't sum it up. Sounds like disinformation. How does some experience on that gas motor have anything to do with what were talking about with a diesel engine.

Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
larsalan
07-12-2012, 06:37 AM #6

No, that doesn't sum it up. Sounds like disinformation. How does some experience on that gas motor have anything to do with what were talking about with a diesel engine.


Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'

raysorenson
Superturbo

1,162
07-12-2012, 10:05 AM #7
(07-12-2012, 06:37 AM)larsalan No, that doesn't sum it up. Sounds like disinformation. How does some experience on that gas motor have anything to do with what were talking about with a diesel engine.

Fair enough. I'm happy to explain myself, this is a technical forum after all. I'm not pleased that you haven't taken the time to debate any single point I made and it leads one to conclude that everything I said might be BS.

I bring up my gasburner experience to illustrate that I'm not the typical W/I "hater".

Aquamist stuff isn't cheap. I had a considerable investment in both time and money in my system. The time to install was one thing, the tweaking and logging to verify results were another. I wasn't worried about engine safety in the gasburner as you would in an old diesel since it's engine control system used feedback from 2 EGT's and 2 knock sensors. It could pull timing, shut the throttle plate, cut boost or dump extra fuel to keep heat and knock under control. I was looking to quiet the knock sensors and drop IAT's to gain extra ignition timing, and therefore power.

While messing with the system, I read everything I could about WI that I could that wasn't an outright sales pitch. This isn't easy. Google "water injection" and you'll get 100 pages of sales pitches and guys on forums saying "I bought this and I'm a smart guy, therefore what I invested in has to work". I'm a smart guy at times myself, but I don't have to be, it's not part of my identity. I'm scientific and I welcome the opportunity to be mistaken.

Here's an okay article, with a bibliography, citing power gains with WI.
http://www.turbotuning.net/e_Artikel_Dieseleffects.html
Note that increases in MEP due to the expansion of water droplets into steam during the combustion stroke are only cited with water injected directly into the combustion chamber just before fuel is injected, something nobody here is going to try. Also note that timing must advanced since combustion rate is slowed by either methanol or water, regardless of whether it's manifold or direct injection. There are no cited instances of power gains through cooling by manifold injection in this article and it was written by Matt Snow!

It's a fact that water is inert in respect to the combustion process. It's a fact that steam dilutes the concentration of oxygen by mass of incoming air into an engine. It's also a fact that intercooling will provide denser air for a given level of boost while at the same time cooling combustion and reducing knock and NOx. While it may be my personal opinion that water injection sucks, it should not be up for debate that it can come close to competing with intercooling.
raysorenson
07-12-2012, 10:05 AM #7

(07-12-2012, 06:37 AM)larsalan No, that doesn't sum it up. Sounds like disinformation. How does some experience on that gas motor have anything to do with what were talking about with a diesel engine.

Fair enough. I'm happy to explain myself, this is a technical forum after all. I'm not pleased that you haven't taken the time to debate any single point I made and it leads one to conclude that everything I said might be BS.

I bring up my gasburner experience to illustrate that I'm not the typical W/I "hater".

Aquamist stuff isn't cheap. I had a considerable investment in both time and money in my system. The time to install was one thing, the tweaking and logging to verify results were another. I wasn't worried about engine safety in the gasburner as you would in an old diesel since it's engine control system used feedback from 2 EGT's and 2 knock sensors. It could pull timing, shut the throttle plate, cut boost or dump extra fuel to keep heat and knock under control. I was looking to quiet the knock sensors and drop IAT's to gain extra ignition timing, and therefore power.

While messing with the system, I read everything I could about WI that I could that wasn't an outright sales pitch. This isn't easy. Google "water injection" and you'll get 100 pages of sales pitches and guys on forums saying "I bought this and I'm a smart guy, therefore what I invested in has to work". I'm a smart guy at times myself, but I don't have to be, it's not part of my identity. I'm scientific and I welcome the opportunity to be mistaken.

Here's an okay article, with a bibliography, citing power gains with WI.
http://www.turbotuning.net/e_Artikel_Dieseleffects.html
Note that increases in MEP due to the expansion of water droplets into steam during the combustion stroke are only cited with water injected directly into the combustion chamber just before fuel is injected, something nobody here is going to try. Also note that timing must advanced since combustion rate is slowed by either methanol or water, regardless of whether it's manifold or direct injection. There are no cited instances of power gains through cooling by manifold injection in this article and it was written by Matt Snow!

It's a fact that water is inert in respect to the combustion process. It's a fact that steam dilutes the concentration of oxygen by mass of incoming air into an engine. It's also a fact that intercooling will provide denser air for a given level of boost while at the same time cooling combustion and reducing knock and NOx. While it may be my personal opinion that water injection sucks, it should not be up for debate that it can come close to competing with intercooling.

Simpler=Better
PORTED HEAD

2,127
07-12-2012, 10:19 AM #8
I ran 5gph, port injected on my 617 and consistently saw temperature rises. I could get a little more seat of the pants power, but the mix of water to methanol was touchy.

Definitely not an alternative to intercooling, but possibly can add power.

When my engine is back in a vehicle again (read:500 years) I'll definitely play with it some more.
This post was last modified: 07-12-2012, 10:20 AM by Simpler=Better.

Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
07-12-2012, 10:19 AM #8

I ran 5gph, port injected on my 617 and consistently saw temperature rises. I could get a little more seat of the pants power, but the mix of water to methanol was touchy.

Definitely not an alternative to intercooling, but possibly can add power.

When my engine is back in a vehicle again (read:500 years) I'll definitely play with it some more.


Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?

MFSuper90
Budget Builder

1,533
07-12-2012, 10:49 AM #9
(07-12-2012, 06:37 AM)larsalan No, that doesn't sum it up. Sounds like disinformation. How does some experience on that gas motor have anything to do with what were talking about with a diesel engine.

We put a W/M injection system on one of our pulling tractors last year, and even though i know its not the same scenario, it might give you a little insight maybe. I don't have egts or intake temps, but you could tell it gave the tractor at least 20 or 30 hp. The reason i can say this is, when pulling, before W/M it would power out in 2nd gear. After W/M it had enough power to spin out, AND almost seemed at we could go up another gear.

Thats a hell of a difference.

'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         
MFSuper90
07-12-2012, 10:49 AM #9

(07-12-2012, 06:37 AM)larsalan No, that doesn't sum it up. Sounds like disinformation. How does some experience on that gas motor have anything to do with what were talking about with a diesel engine.

We put a W/M injection system on one of our pulling tractors last year, and even though i know its not the same scenario, it might give you a little insight maybe. I don't have egts or intake temps, but you could tell it gave the tractor at least 20 or 30 hp. The reason i can say this is, when pulling, before W/M it would power out in 2nd gear. After W/M it had enough power to spin out, AND almost seemed at we could go up another gear.

Thats a hell of a difference.


'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         

larsalan
Superturbo

1,272
07-12-2012, 11:13 AM #10
diesel tractor, right. I am sounding like a bit of a Lancish ass. But that gas motor has about as much to do with a diesel as a baseball card in the spokes of a bmx does.
Water doesn't burn but, when water turns from liquid to gas it expands something like 1600 times in volume.
There's a reason all those power plants are boiling water to spin turbines.
I am certainly not the expert on thermodynamics and engine tuning.
I do however stand by my assertion that whatever in the heck you did with a gas motor has no bearing on what will happen inside a diesel motor.
All that said, I agree the intercooler is the way to go. If anything the water injection maybe a fun project but really the intercooler is the tried and true method and the effects of blowing water through the motor are not a fair substitute.

Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
larsalan
07-12-2012, 11:13 AM #10

diesel tractor, right. I am sounding like a bit of a Lancish ass. But that gas motor has about as much to do with a diesel as a baseball card in the spokes of a bmx does.
Water doesn't burn but, when water turns from liquid to gas it expands something like 1600 times in volume.
There's a reason all those power plants are boiling water to spin turbines.
I am certainly not the expert on thermodynamics and engine tuning.
I do however stand by my assertion that whatever in the heck you did with a gas motor has no bearing on what will happen inside a diesel motor.
All that said, I agree the intercooler is the way to go. If anything the water injection maybe a fun project but really the intercooler is the tried and true method and the effects of blowing water through the motor are not a fair substitute.


Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'

MFSuper90
Budget Builder

1,533
07-12-2012, 12:36 PM #11
(07-12-2012, 11:13 AM)larsalan diesel tractor, right. I am sounding like a bit of a Lancish ass. But that gas motor has about as much to do with a diesel as a baseball card in the spokes of a bmx does.

All that said, I agree the intercooler is the way to go. If anything the water injection maybe a fun project but really the intercooler is the tried and true method and the effects of blowing water through the motor are not a fair substitute.

yes diesel tractor. and for full throttle, high boost times I believe W/M is better, BUT for a daily driver and for full range effiecency an intercooler would hit the spot Smile

'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         
MFSuper90
07-12-2012, 12:36 PM #11

(07-12-2012, 11:13 AM)larsalan diesel tractor, right. I am sounding like a bit of a Lancish ass. But that gas motor has about as much to do with a diesel as a baseball card in the spokes of a bmx does.

All that said, I agree the intercooler is the way to go. If anything the water injection maybe a fun project but really the intercooler is the tried and true method and the effects of blowing water through the motor are not a fair substitute.

yes diesel tractor. and for full throttle, high boost times I believe W/M is better, BUT for a daily driver and for full range effiecency an intercooler would hit the spot Smile


'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler Big Grin
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted         

ronnie
GT2559V

179
07-12-2012, 05:26 PM #12
remember I am mostly concerned about lowering intake temps, and gas engine data that would show how much water injection lowers it compared to a good intercooler would be of value. Now of course anything that lowers intake temps would also allow more fuel, and hence more power, assuming fuel is calibrated for it.

I am tempted to put a temp gauge on my intake as it is now just to see what kind of temps I am getting.

Raysorenson, do you have from your data logger intake temps? on both systems?
ronnie
07-12-2012, 05:26 PM #12

remember I am mostly concerned about lowering intake temps, and gas engine data that would show how much water injection lowers it compared to a good intercooler would be of value. Now of course anything that lowers intake temps would also allow more fuel, and hence more power, assuming fuel is calibrated for it.

I am tempted to put a temp gauge on my intake as it is now just to see what kind of temps I am getting.

Raysorenson, do you have from your data logger intake temps? on both systems?

raysorenson
Superturbo

1,162
07-12-2012, 08:20 PM #13
(07-12-2012, 11:13 AM)larsalan whatever in the heck you did with a gas motor has no bearing on what will happen inside a diesel motor.
[Image: someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet-300x300.jpg]
Dammit man, my GF is going to leave me if I get into another intarweb swordfight. You can't hope to defend that obtuse statement.

Ronnie, those logs are on a dead laptop and I placed my injector about 3" upstream of the IAT sensor which didn't give much time for the water to evaporate. Regardless, done right, water injection will take away tons of heat. While this place is a great resource, Aquamist's forum will answer all of your W/I theory questions best http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/inde...f8b5237360
raysorenson
07-12-2012, 08:20 PM #13

(07-12-2012, 11:13 AM)larsalan whatever in the heck you did with a gas motor has no bearing on what will happen inside a diesel motor.
[Image: someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet-300x300.jpg]
Dammit man, my GF is going to leave me if I get into another intarweb swordfight. You can't hope to defend that obtuse statement.

Ronnie, those logs are on a dead laptop and I placed my injector about 3" upstream of the IAT sensor which didn't give much time for the water to evaporate. Regardless, done right, water injection will take away tons of heat. While this place is a great resource, Aquamist's forum will answer all of your W/I theory questions best http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/inde...f8b5237360

larsalan
Superturbo

1,272
07-12-2012, 10:09 PM #14
you did know that gasoline is not the same as diesel and that the gasoline motors and diesel motor operate on totally different principals, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

If your GF leaves you you can cuddle up with that interweb cat Wink

Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
larsalan
07-12-2012, 10:09 PM #14

you did know that gasoline is not the same as diesel and that the gasoline motors and diesel motor operate on totally different principals, right?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

If your GF leaves you you can cuddle up with that interweb cat Wink


Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'

sassparilla_kid
diesel > all other fuels

1,618
07-12-2012, 10:20 PM #15
If only I had unlimited access to the neat stuff at school, like the chassis dyno, I would hook my stuff up and be able to get some real info on horsepower/torque/thatkindofstuff. Dodgy

(07-12-2012, 10:09 PM)larsalan If your GF leaves you you can cuddle up with that interweb cat Wink

Lolol Big Grin

That looks like one smart cat
This post was last modified: 07-12-2012, 10:22 PM by sassparilla_kid.

-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
07-12-2012, 10:20 PM #15

If only I had unlimited access to the neat stuff at school, like the chassis dyno, I would hook my stuff up and be able to get some real info on horsepower/torque/thatkindofstuff. Dodgy


(07-12-2012, 10:09 PM)larsalan If your GF leaves you you can cuddle up with that interweb cat Wink

Lolol Big Grin

That looks like one smart cat


-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!

Captain America
Boostin' & Roostin'

2,221
07-13-2012, 01:33 AM #16
[Image: Not-a-Single-Fuck-Was-Given-592x600.jpg]

I wouldnt chase which one is better. I would ask yourself how much money you want to spend.

W/M:
Cools
Cleans
Additional fuel supply
Can make a turbo act bigger
Needs to be refilled (Bad)
Cost a lot of $$ (Bad)
Complex setup (Bad)

Front Mount I/C:
Cools
Easy Setup
Fairly cheap
No maintenance
Very efficient
Increased turbo lag (Bad)
If recirculation crankcase gases, oil can collect in I/C (Bad)
Mounting (Bad)

^^^ That is just a few pros and cons

I vote Air/Water Intercooler Tongue


1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag

AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....

Captain America
07-13-2012, 01:33 AM #16

[Image: Not-a-Single-Fuck-Was-Given-592x600.jpg]

I wouldnt chase which one is better. I would ask yourself how much money you want to spend.

W/M:
Cools
Cleans
Additional fuel supply
Can make a turbo act bigger
Needs to be refilled (Bad)
Cost a lot of $$ (Bad)
Complex setup (Bad)

Front Mount I/C:
Cools
Easy Setup
Fairly cheap
No maintenance
Very efficient
Increased turbo lag (Bad)
If recirculation crankcase gases, oil can collect in I/C (Bad)
Mounting (Bad)

^^^ That is just a few pros and cons

I vote Air/Water Intercooler Tongue



1982 300D Turbo ... 3,6xxlbs, No fan, No AC, Hood Stack, No ALDA, No rear bumper and stuffed front, A/W Intercooled, Injectors by Greezer and HUGE Pre-Chambers with help from OM616 & Simpler=Better, Fuel Cranked up, 60 Trim Compressor wheel, EGT, EMP, Boost 50" Rigid Radius bar on roof Aux tank for a total of 48 Gal Of Diesel! Odyssey PC-1750 Battery in trunk, 27"x8.5"/R14 Maxxis BigHorn Mud Terrains, In June '14 issue of Off Road Mag

AX15 Jeep Trans swap in progress....

Simpler=Better
PORTED HEAD

2,127
07-13-2012, 09:50 AM #17
(07-12-2012, 10:20 PM)sassparilla_kid If only I had unlimited access to the neat stuff at school, like the chassis dyno, I would hook my stuff up and be able to get some real info on horsepower/torque/thatkindofstuff. Dodgy

When your independent study REQUIRES that you have access to that equipment then they have no choice but to give you access.

Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
07-13-2012, 09:50 AM #17

(07-12-2012, 10:20 PM)sassparilla_kid If only I had unlimited access to the neat stuff at school, like the chassis dyno, I would hook my stuff up and be able to get some real info on horsepower/torque/thatkindofstuff. Dodgy

When your independent study REQUIRES that you have access to that equipment then they have no choice but to give you access.


Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?

Greazzer
Superturbo

1,277
07-13-2012, 02:39 PM #18
Here's my .02 cents.

Water "absorbs" or assumes heat better than air. That is a scientific fact. For example, if you splashed water on a radiator, it will dissapate heat a lot faster than air. A radiator submerged in water will cool faster than air. Water is superior to air when it comes to getting rid of heat. As for air, you cannot compete with ram air after 20 mph. That is, no matter how big your fan, going 20+ mph will beat any fan and shroud out there. Those are the forces of physics and I am pretty sure all of the internet Wiki's will support this. A mist of water will absorb heat a lot more than air, and a mist of ice cold water will absorb even more. So, I have to side with the water advocates. Before I totaled my MB, I ran straight water mist and it did improve HP and the only likely solution is that the water cooled the air. Drivng any car 20+ per hour will produce more air, and whatever the ambient tempature is is sure to have an impact, but water will still beat that air. I am also sure that if one has an I/C in conjuction with M+W (or just straight H20) it is probably the best bet. BUT, as indicated, water is still a superior agent, even for the I/C, that is, a A-W I/C.

Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020

visit:  www.dieselfuelinjector.guru

Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.

RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982.  Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
Greazzer
07-13-2012, 02:39 PM #18

Here's my .02 cents.

Water "absorbs" or assumes heat better than air. That is a scientific fact. For example, if you splashed water on a radiator, it will dissapate heat a lot faster than air. A radiator submerged in water will cool faster than air. Water is superior to air when it comes to getting rid of heat. As for air, you cannot compete with ram air after 20 mph. That is, no matter how big your fan, going 20+ mph will beat any fan and shroud out there. Those are the forces of physics and I am pretty sure all of the internet Wiki's will support this. A mist of water will absorb heat a lot more than air, and a mist of ice cold water will absorb even more. So, I have to side with the water advocates. Before I totaled my MB, I ran straight water mist and it did improve HP and the only likely solution is that the water cooled the air. Drivng any car 20+ per hour will produce more air, and whatever the ambient tempature is is sure to have an impact, but water will still beat that air. I am also sure that if one has an I/C in conjuction with M+W (or just straight H20) it is probably the best bet. BUT, as indicated, water is still a superior agent, even for the I/C, that is, a A-W I/C.


Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020

visit:  www.dieselfuelinjector.guru

Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.

RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982.  Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...

sassparilla_kid
diesel > all other fuels

1,618
07-14-2012, 06:21 PM #19
(07-13-2012, 09:50 AM)Simpler=Better
(07-12-2012, 10:20 PM)sassparilla_kid If only I had unlimited access to the neat stuff at school, like the chassis dyno, I would hook my stuff up and be able to get some real info on horsepower/torque/thatkindofstuff. Dodgy

When your independent study REQUIRES that you have access to that equipment then they have no choice but to give you access.

That gives me an idea, I know there is an engine dyno in the shop too that supposedly works. Perhaps I will use it for a study, using a turbo 616 (after I build it of course, before it makes its way into a car) and test W/M vs. IC??

Does this sound like it would be an experiment worthy of them letting me use it??

-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
07-14-2012, 06:21 PM #19

(07-13-2012, 09:50 AM)Simpler=Better
(07-12-2012, 10:20 PM)sassparilla_kid If only I had unlimited access to the neat stuff at school, like the chassis dyno, I would hook my stuff up and be able to get some real info on horsepower/torque/thatkindofstuff. Dodgy

When your independent study REQUIRES that you have access to that equipment then they have no choice but to give you access.

That gives me an idea, I know there is an engine dyno in the shop too that supposedly works. Perhaps I will use it for a study, using a turbo 616 (after I build it of course, before it makes its way into a car) and test W/M vs. IC??

Does this sound like it would be an experiment worthy of them letting me use it??


-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!

JTY
GTA2056V

92
07-15-2012, 12:01 PM #20
Been running W/M injection on several cars for several years, few petrol cars and few diesel.
On all of them W/M made a difference, i logged EGT and IAT temperatures. There was noticeable drop in EGT's when W/M went on. W/M gave better torque and i could take longer pulls in extreme temperature without roofing EGT's.
I run 40/60 mix of methanol, have tried with ethanol mix but did not works so well as methanol mix.

I'm usin W/M only at WOT, i tried mid throttle injection with my S350TD and it made big difference in mpg.

- MB w126 300SD Superturbo (US) -83, Mods: OM617A with custom head work, Master Power Turbo 802332, PP-Diesel custom 7mm IP, China intercooler, KKD-Motorsport exhaust manifold, DIY intake manifold, Coolmist Waterinjection, DIY Supermeter display/datalog with PLX Wideband Lambda, Siekkinen custom 722.3 autotrans, Elbe Performance LSD, Green Filter cold air intake, straight 3" exhaust with two dual 2.5" outputs
- MB r129 500SL AMG (JDM) -94
Full AMG bodykit, full JDM features, modified ECU and exhaust
- MB w123 250E-TT (JDM) -85
Full 1JZ-GTE twinturbo conversion, full aircon, custom china cooler, custom IC-pipes, custom sport recaro interior, custom 3-piece JDM rims
JTY
07-15-2012, 12:01 PM #20

Been running W/M injection on several cars for several years, few petrol cars and few diesel.
On all of them W/M made a difference, i logged EGT and IAT temperatures. There was noticeable drop in EGT's when W/M went on. W/M gave better torque and i could take longer pulls in extreme temperature without roofing EGT's.
I run 40/60 mix of methanol, have tried with ethanol mix but did not works so well as methanol mix.

I'm usin W/M only at WOT, i tried mid throttle injection with my S350TD and it made big difference in mpg.


- MB w126 300SD Superturbo (US) -83, Mods: OM617A with custom head work, Master Power Turbo 802332, PP-Diesel custom 7mm IP, China intercooler, KKD-Motorsport exhaust manifold, DIY intake manifold, Coolmist Waterinjection, DIY Supermeter display/datalog with PLX Wideband Lambda, Siekkinen custom 722.3 autotrans, Elbe Performance LSD, Green Filter cold air intake, straight 3" exhaust with two dual 2.5" outputs
- MB r129 500SL AMG (JDM) -94
Full AMG bodykit, full JDM features, modified ECU and exhaust
- MB w123 250E-TT (JDM) -85
Full 1JZ-GTE twinturbo conversion, full aircon, custom china cooler, custom IC-pipes, custom sport recaro interior, custom 3-piece JDM rims

dust
K26-2

28
07-16-2012, 06:57 AM #21
Devil's Own has a lot of dynos and smogs from Malaysia of different older diesels.

http://www.tdocuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=41...&start=165

I will say from what I have read over 10 years or so, that water meth, especially in a diesel (can't use 100% meth), the WMI will not be a replacement for a good IC. That said, you will see gains with either, and it's up to you to decide if you want the hassle of an IC install, in comparison to a WMI install. Depending on how much time you spend in higher boost, a WMI kit may be more beneficial for you. From what you are saying, it will be simpler.

Diesel can use much more fluid than a gasser engine. LIke a 2.5 diesel using 34 gallons per hour on top of an IC alot.
This post was last modified: 07-16-2012, 07:22 AM by dust.
dust
07-16-2012, 06:57 AM #21

Devil's Own has a lot of dynos and smogs from Malaysia of different older diesels.

http://www.tdocuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=41...&start=165

I will say from what I have read over 10 years or so, that water meth, especially in a diesel (can't use 100% meth), the WMI will not be a replacement for a good IC. That said, you will see gains with either, and it's up to you to decide if you want the hassle of an IC install, in comparison to a WMI install. Depending on how much time you spend in higher boost, a WMI kit may be more beneficial for you. From what you are saying, it will be simpler.

Diesel can use much more fluid than a gasser engine. LIke a 2.5 diesel using 34 gallons per hour on top of an IC alot.

Simpler=Better
PORTED HEAD

2,127
07-16-2012, 07:47 AM #22
(07-14-2012, 06:21 PM)sassparilla_kid
(07-13-2012, 09:50 AM)Simpler=Better
(07-12-2012, 10:20 PM)sassparilla_kid If only I had unlimited access to the neat stuff at school, like the chassis dyno, I would hook my stuff up and be able to get some real info on horsepower/torque/thatkindofstuff. Dodgy

When your independent study REQUIRES that you have access to that equipment then they have no choice but to give you access.

That gives me an idea, I know there is an engine dyno in the shop too that supposedly works. Perhaps I will use it for a study, using a turbo 616 (after I build it of course, before it makes its way into a car) and test W/M vs. IC??

Does this sound like it would be an experiment worthy of them letting me use it??

I ran out of time & money at school, so I gave up on it, but here's the secret:

Ethanol. Write up your independant study with the target of "writing a paper to share your results of your research, such as a sustainable fuels convention, etc." If you write up your ind study ass something that delivers results, you will probably fail-one semester isn't enough time and things ALWAYS get out of hand. Your topic: The effects of ethanol injection on antique indirect injected diesels to research the effects on power output and efficiency (mileage). If you have the equiptment throw in something about emissions just for fun. All the stuff online goes around methanol-a dangerous substance. You want to use good ol' drinkin' alkerhol, a potentially sustainable fuel.

Hell, I'd be willing to loan you my injection manifolds if you asked nicely.


Also, I forgot to mention-the big difference between a turbo gas car and a turbo diesel car-the gas car has a static CR of what, 8:1? add 14psi of boost and you're at a static of 16:1. The 617 has a static of 21.5:1, add 14psi and you're at a CR of 43:1.
This post was last modified: 07-16-2012, 07:49 AM by Simpler=Better.

Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
07-16-2012, 07:47 AM #22

(07-14-2012, 06:21 PM)sassparilla_kid
(07-13-2012, 09:50 AM)Simpler=Better
(07-12-2012, 10:20 PM)sassparilla_kid If only I had unlimited access to the neat stuff at school, like the chassis dyno, I would hook my stuff up and be able to get some real info on horsepower/torque/thatkindofstuff. Dodgy

When your independent study REQUIRES that you have access to that equipment then they have no choice but to give you access.

That gives me an idea, I know there is an engine dyno in the shop too that supposedly works. Perhaps I will use it for a study, using a turbo 616 (after I build it of course, before it makes its way into a car) and test W/M vs. IC??

Does this sound like it would be an experiment worthy of them letting me use it??

I ran out of time & money at school, so I gave up on it, but here's the secret:

Ethanol. Write up your independant study with the target of "writing a paper to share your results of your research, such as a sustainable fuels convention, etc." If you write up your ind study ass something that delivers results, you will probably fail-one semester isn't enough time and things ALWAYS get out of hand. Your topic: The effects of ethanol injection on antique indirect injected diesels to research the effects on power output and efficiency (mileage). If you have the equiptment throw in something about emissions just for fun. All the stuff online goes around methanol-a dangerous substance. You want to use good ol' drinkin' alkerhol, a potentially sustainable fuel.

Hell, I'd be willing to loan you my injection manifolds if you asked nicely.


Also, I forgot to mention-the big difference between a turbo gas car and a turbo diesel car-the gas car has a static CR of what, 8:1? add 14psi of boost and you're at a static of 16:1. The 617 has a static of 21.5:1, add 14psi and you're at a CR of 43:1.


Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?

sassparilla_kid
diesel > all other fuels

1,618
07-17-2012, 08:03 PM #23
(07-16-2012, 07:47 AM)Simpler=Better
(07-14-2012, 06:21 PM)sassparilla_kid
(07-13-2012, 09:50 AM)Simpler=Better When your independent study REQUIRES that you have access to that equipment then they have no choice but to give you access.

That gives me an idea, I know there is an engine dyno in the shop too that supposedly works. Perhaps I will use it for a study, using a turbo 616 (after I build it of course, before it makes its way into a car) and test W/M vs. IC??

Does this sound like it would be an experiment worthy of them letting me use it??

I ran out of time & money at school, so I gave up on it, but here's the secret:

Ethanol. Write up your independant study with the target of "writing a paper to share your results of your research, such as a sustainable fuels convention, etc." If you write up your ind study ass something that delivers results, you will probably fail-one semester isn't enough time and things ALWAYS get out of hand. Your topic: The effects of ethanol injection on antique indirect injected diesels to research the effects on power output and efficiency (mileage). If you have the equiptment throw in something about emissions just for fun. All the stuff online goes around methanol-a dangerous substance. You want to use good ol' drinkin' alkerhol, a potentially sustainable fuel.

Hell, I'd be willing to loan you my injection manifolds if you asked nicely.


Also, I forgot to mention-the big difference between a turbo gas car and a turbo diesel car-the gas car has a static CR of what, 8:1? add 14psi of boost and you're at a static of 16:1. The 617 has a static of 21.5:1, add 14psi and you're at a CR of 43:1.

They have all kinds of crap in there, chassis dyno, engine dyno, and I think they might have smog testing stuff, but I'm not too sure. Maybe in the fall after I'm done being a farmer I might be able to do some testing, right now I'm too busy, and I have other projects piling up.

-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!
sassparilla_kid
07-17-2012, 08:03 PM #23

(07-16-2012, 07:47 AM)Simpler=Better
(07-14-2012, 06:21 PM)sassparilla_kid
(07-13-2012, 09:50 AM)Simpler=Better When your independent study REQUIRES that you have access to that equipment then they have no choice but to give you access.

That gives me an idea, I know there is an engine dyno in the shop too that supposedly works. Perhaps I will use it for a study, using a turbo 616 (after I build it of course, before it makes its way into a car) and test W/M vs. IC??

Does this sound like it would be an experiment worthy of them letting me use it??

I ran out of time & money at school, so I gave up on it, but here's the secret:

Ethanol. Write up your independant study with the target of "writing a paper to share your results of your research, such as a sustainable fuels convention, etc." If you write up your ind study ass something that delivers results, you will probably fail-one semester isn't enough time and things ALWAYS get out of hand. Your topic: The effects of ethanol injection on antique indirect injected diesels to research the effects on power output and efficiency (mileage). If you have the equiptment throw in something about emissions just for fun. All the stuff online goes around methanol-a dangerous substance. You want to use good ol' drinkin' alkerhol, a potentially sustainable fuel.

Hell, I'd be willing to loan you my injection manifolds if you asked nicely.


Also, I forgot to mention-the big difference between a turbo gas car and a turbo diesel car-the gas car has a static CR of what, 8:1? add 14psi of boost and you're at a static of 16:1. The 617 has a static of 21.5:1, add 14psi and you're at a CR of 43:1.

They have all kinds of crap in there, chassis dyno, engine dyno, and I think they might have smog testing stuff, but I'm not too sure. Maybe in the fall after I'm done being a farmer I might be able to do some testing, right now I'm too busy, and I have other projects piling up.


-1982 300D Turbo, 280k miles, ALDA apparently maxxed, fram 8038, 12 lbs boost, non-egr manifolds, W/M injection, 4 brake light mod, Gen II w126 front rotors/calipers, 4-speed swap
In the works: A/W IC, adjust pump, turbo rebuild (w/60 trim comp wheel)
-1980 300SD, 110k, project car. Goal is to get it lookin' like it did on the showroom floor (body and interior wise, not necessarily under the hood )
-1974 240D, FRESH PAINT!!!!!!

Gearbound
In need of a OM606.96x

172
07-23-2012, 09:14 AM #24
biggest thing i can vote for is cost. the intercooler is an investment. look at the new benz and vw. they have intercoolers. my jetta came stock with an intercooler and on the hwy at stock levels its only 5-7 psi

the w/m system does work too. i have data proving that it works on my 2500 ram cummins. and also proof that it works on my toyota supra. but its a pain to setup and tweak everytime i change something like boost ,timing or type of fuel(wvo,off road,low sulfer,b10,e85,q16,93octane)

I would go with intercooler. its cost effective. increased engine life, increase in power,increase in economy. CHEAP! SIMPLE! RELIABLE! make it fit ONCE and forget it! so what if blow by oil collects in the intercooler, its going to get picked up by massive amount of air flow taking it into the motor. it will never clog it from flowing enough to hurt the performance in a way you will notice.
Gearbound
07-23-2012, 09:14 AM #24

biggest thing i can vote for is cost. the intercooler is an investment. look at the new benz and vw. they have intercoolers. my jetta came stock with an intercooler and on the hwy at stock levels its only 5-7 psi

the w/m system does work too. i have data proving that it works on my 2500 ram cummins. and also proof that it works on my toyota supra. but its a pain to setup and tweak everytime i change something like boost ,timing or type of fuel(wvo,off road,low sulfer,b10,e85,q16,93octane)

I would go with intercooler. its cost effective. increased engine life, increase in power,increase in economy. CHEAP! SIMPLE! RELIABLE! make it fit ONCE and forget it! so what if blow by oil collects in the intercooler, its going to get picked up by massive amount of air flow taking it into the motor. it will never clog it from flowing enough to hurt the performance in a way you will notice.

 
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