MW pump numbers
MW pump numbers
12-29-2012, 10:40 AM
#1
PES 5 MW 55/320 RS 16 or 0 403 245 014/0 403 245 020 pump plungers in stock configuration?
Also for the part number for the IH DT466 for its 10mm plungers?
A few of us are commissioning a batch of uprated plungers for the MW pump as it is obviously an item in high demand. I sourced a capable manufacturer, just need to spec out the obvious and order away. We feel the pump can be built cheap enough to make an affordable bolt-on alternative the rare M pump.
This post was last modified: 12-29-2012, 01:12 PM by Austincarnut.
Austincarnut
12-29-2012, 10:40 AM #1Does anyone out there have the Bosch part number for the
PES 5 MW 55/320 RS 16 or 0 403 245 014/0 403 245 020 pump plungers in stock configuration?
Also for the part number for the IH DT466 for its 10mm plungers?
A few of us are commissioning a batch of uprated plungers for the MW pump as it is obviously an item in high demand. I sourced a capable manufacturer, just need to spec out the obvious and order away. We feel the pump can be built cheap enough to make an affordable bolt-on alternative the rare M pump.
12-29-2012, 11:49 AM
#2
If you are going to have a batch made, why not have them make the 8mm ones, they should be forgiving enough that your pump guy should be able to set up the delivery, and the high pressure system should be able to work it. With 10mm elements it is not necessarily a plug and play pump, everything really needs to be upgraded to maintain a balance in delivery rate and quantity.
There are a lot of different 10mm MW elements available, I bought about 6 different ones until I found one that was I think would be a good candidate for my application.
If you are going to have a batch made, why not have them make the 8mm ones, they should be forgiving enough that your pump guy should be able to set up the delivery, and the high pressure system should be able to work it. With 10mm elements it is not necessarily a plug and play pump, everything really needs to be upgraded to maintain a balance in delivery rate and quantity.
12-29-2012, 12:30 PM
#3
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
I believe those parts # were already posted here ? (another thread/post) ...
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
12-29-2012, 01:14 PM
#4
(12-29-2012, 11:49 AM)OM616 There are a lot of different 10mm MW elements available, I bought about 6 different ones until I found one that was I think would be a good candidate for my application.
If you are going to have a batch made, why not have them make the 8mm ones, they should be forgiving enough that your pump guy should be able to set up the delivery, and the high pressure system should be able to work it. With 10mm elements it is not necessarily a plug and play pump, everything really needs to be upgraded to maintain a balance in delivery rate and quantity.
Austincarnut
12-29-2012, 01:14 PM #4I'm all ears, I was thinking of starting smaller 6.5-7.0mm. I haven't seen any reference numbers posted, any idea where they were? 8mm isn't out of the question though
(12-29-2012, 11:49 AM)OM616 There are a lot of different 10mm MW elements available, I bought about 6 different ones until I found one that was I think would be a good candidate for my application.
If you are going to have a batch made, why not have them make the 8mm ones, they should be forgiving enough that your pump guy should be able to set up the delivery, and the high pressure system should be able to work it. With 10mm elements it is not necessarily a plug and play pump, everything really needs to be upgraded to maintain a balance in delivery rate and quantity.
12-29-2012, 03:27 PM
#5
(12-29-2012, 01:14 PM)Austincarnut I'm all ears, I was thinking of starting smaller 6.5-7.0mm. I haven't seen any reference numbers posted, any idea where they were? 8mm isn't out of the question though
Because I am not good at being able to search and find what I am looking for on the forum, (some members are really good at it) I will post the MW 8mm Bosch part # 1 418 415 058 is the element numbers again. The pump number that it goes to is PES6MW80/320RS1104-1 These numbers were some of many that Mario posted on his sight long ago.
Be sure to have them make them in the thin configuration, as the thick ones use different DV holders.
IMOP anything smaller than 8mm is a waste of time, look at the M pump element for example, if they could put 10mm elements in those things they would be doing it lol.
Plus 8mm will be much easer to sell, most everyone hears 10mm and thinks OMG that is too much fuel. They do however require some know how and the right combination of different parts to get the fueling levels to the 60 / 90 cc/K Revs, let alone tuning the governor so it is drivable. I will say that I ended up running different springs, but I won't say which ones.
If you give the 8mm element part# to your manufacturer, they should be able to make them for you.
Looks like we may end up with a little rivalry between us, like Dieselmeken and PP D, lol
(12-29-2012, 01:14 PM)Austincarnut I'm all ears, I was thinking of starting smaller 6.5-7.0mm. I haven't seen any reference numbers posted, any idea where they were? 8mm isn't out of the question though
Because I am not good at being able to search and find what I am looking for on the forum, (some members are really good at it) I will post the MW 8mm Bosch part # 1 418 415 058 is the element numbers again. The pump number that it goes to is PES6MW80/320RS1104-1 These numbers were some of many that Mario posted on his sight long ago.
Be sure to have them make them in the thin configuration, as the thick ones use different DV holders.
IMOP anything smaller than 8mm is a waste of time, look at the M pump element for example, if they could put 10mm elements in those things they would be doing it lol.
Plus 8mm will be much easer to sell, most everyone hears 10mm and thinks OMG that is too much fuel. They do however require some know how and the right combination of different parts to get the fueling levels to the 60 / 90 cc/K Revs, let alone tuning the governor so it is drivable. I will say that I ended up running different springs, but I won't say which ones.
If you give the 8mm element part# to your manufacturer, they should be able to make them for you.
Looks like we may end up with a little rivalry between us, like Dieselmeken and PP D, lol
12-29-2012, 04:30 PM
#6
JM
(12-29-2012, 03:27 PM)OM616(12-29-2012, 01:14 PM)Austincarnut I'm all ears, I was thinking of starting smaller 6.5-7.0mm. I haven't seen any reference numbers posted, any idea where they were? 8mm isn't out of the question though
Because I am not good at being able to search and find what I am looking for on the forum, (some members are really good at it) I will post the MW 8mm Bosch part # 1 418 415 058 is the element numbers again. The pump number that it goes to is PES6MW80/320RS1104-1 These numbers were some of many that Mario posted on his sight long ago.
Be sure to have them make them in the thin configuration, as the thick ones use different DV holders.
IMOP anything smaller than 8mm is a waste of time, look at the M pump element for example, if they could put 10mm elements in those things they would be doing it lol.
Plus 8mm will be much easer to sell, most everyone hears 10mm and thinks OMG that is too much fuel. They do however require some know how and the right combination of different parts to get the fueling levels to the 60 / 90 cc/K Revs, let alone tuning the governor so it is drivable. I will say that I ended up running different springs, but I won't say which ones.
If you give the 8mm element part# to your manufacturer, they should be able to make them for you.
Looks like we may end up with a little rivalry between us, like Dieselmeken and PP D, lol
Austincarnut
12-29-2012, 04:30 PM #6A little rivalry is a good thing, it keeps us on our toes... How come you haven't used the 8mm in your personal projects? ...I appreciate your help though
JM
(12-29-2012, 03:27 PM)OM616(12-29-2012, 01:14 PM)Austincarnut I'm all ears, I was thinking of starting smaller 6.5-7.0mm. I haven't seen any reference numbers posted, any idea where they were? 8mm isn't out of the question though
Because I am not good at being able to search and find what I am looking for on the forum, (some members are really good at it) I will post the MW 8mm Bosch part # 1 418 415 058 is the element numbers again. The pump number that it goes to is PES6MW80/320RS1104-1 These numbers were some of many that Mario posted on his sight long ago.
Be sure to have them make them in the thin configuration, as the thick ones use different DV holders.
IMOP anything smaller than 8mm is a waste of time, look at the M pump element for example, if they could put 10mm elements in those things they would be doing it lol.
Plus 8mm will be much easer to sell, most everyone hears 10mm and thinks OMG that is too much fuel. They do however require some know how and the right combination of different parts to get the fueling levels to the 60 / 90 cc/K Revs, let alone tuning the governor so it is drivable. I will say that I ended up running different springs, but I won't say which ones.
If you give the 8mm element part# to your manufacturer, they should be able to make them for you.
Looks like we may end up with a little rivalry between us, like Dieselmeken and PP D, lol
12-29-2012, 06:29 PM
#7
(12-29-2012, 04:30 PM)Austincarnut A little rivalry is a good thing, it keeps us on our toes... How come you haven't used the 8mm in your personal projects? ...I appreciate your help though
JM
The 8mm MW elements are hardly ever in stock. I recently was talking with a German supplier that said he had some in his archives, but when I asked him to confirm that they were thin, I never heard back. If you had a batch made, you would probably be popular depending on the cost of them.
I decided to go with an element that I know I can get at any time from multiple sources, plus I like the shorter duration that the 10mm provide.
(12-29-2012, 04:30 PM)Austincarnut A little rivalry is a good thing, it keeps us on our toes... How come you haven't used the 8mm in your personal projects? ...I appreciate your help though
JM
The 8mm MW elements are hardly ever in stock. I recently was talking with a German supplier that said he had some in his archives, but when I asked him to confirm that they were thin, I never heard back. If you had a batch made, you would probably be popular depending on the cost of them.
I decided to go with an element that I know I can get at any time from multiple sources, plus I like the shorter duration that the 10mm provide.
12-29-2012, 06:53 PM
#8
(12-29-2012, 06:29 PM)OM616(12-29-2012, 04:30 PM)Austincarnut A little rivalry is a good thing, it keeps us on our toes... How come you haven't used the 8mm in your personal projects? ...I appreciate your help though
JM
The 8mm MW elements are hardly ever in stock. I recently was talking with a German supplier that said he had some in his archives, but when I asked him to confirm that they were thin, I never heard back. If you had a batch made, you would probably be popular depending on the cost of them.
I decided to go with an element that I know I can get at any time from multiple sources, plus I like the shorter duration that the 10mm provide.
This post was last modified: 12-29-2012, 06:59 PM by Austincarnut.
Austincarnut
12-29-2012, 06:53 PM #8How much grief do you think the 8mm plungers are vs the 10mm vs the stock? I mean in your opinion should a seasoned pump builder be capable of making something like this work fairly easily and reliably without reverse engineering the entire pump. This provided the quality of the elements are adequate of course.
(12-29-2012, 06:29 PM)OM616(12-29-2012, 04:30 PM)Austincarnut A little rivalry is a good thing, it keeps us on our toes... How come you haven't used the 8mm in your personal projects? ...I appreciate your help though
JM
The 8mm MW elements are hardly ever in stock. I recently was talking with a German supplier that said he had some in his archives, but when I asked him to confirm that they were thin, I never heard back. If you had a batch made, you would probably be popular depending on the cost of them.
I decided to go with an element that I know I can get at any time from multiple sources, plus I like the shorter duration that the 10mm provide.
12-29-2012, 07:59 PM
#9
(12-29-2012, 06:53 PM)Austincarnut How much grief do you think the 8mm plungers are vs the 10mm vs the stock? I mean in your opinion should a seasoned pump builder be capable of making something like this work fairly easily and reliably without reverse engineering the entire pump. This provided the quality of the elements are adequate of course.
Well..... So far I have spoken to several "seasoned" pump guys, even some that build hot Cummins pumps, and they are good at setting everything pre the specks that they are given, but none really know how everything relates to each other, and very few can tune a governor outside of the standard specks they have.
You should really talk to your pump guy and feel him out. Has he done this type of build before?
As far as 8mm to 10mm, it all really depends on the end of injection helix. If the helix is real steep, tuning the Governor will be tricky, it is real easy to get it to where it comes on hard and then falls on its face.
There are ways to mellow the elements, but that is getting into the magic, If your pump guy knows what each part does and what it relates to, then he should be able to select the proper parts to make it work. If he is just a rebuilder, then its a crap shoot.
That is why I am building my own calibration machine.
The 6.5s that Tom had made were so close to the 5.5s that it was no different to build one than a stock one, which made it easy for anyone to have one put together. Now getting up into the7s and 8 +s, that’s a different ball game.
This post was last modified: 12-29-2012, 08:01 PM by OM616.
(12-29-2012, 06:53 PM)Austincarnut How much grief do you think the 8mm plungers are vs the 10mm vs the stock? I mean in your opinion should a seasoned pump builder be capable of making something like this work fairly easily and reliably without reverse engineering the entire pump. This provided the quality of the elements are adequate of course.
Well..... So far I have spoken to several "seasoned" pump guys, even some that build hot Cummins pumps, and they are good at setting everything pre the specks that they are given, but none really know how everything relates to each other, and very few can tune a governor outside of the standard specks they have.
You should really talk to your pump guy and feel him out. Has he done this type of build before?
As far as 8mm to 10mm, it all really depends on the end of injection helix. If the helix is real steep, tuning the Governor will be tricky, it is real easy to get it to where it comes on hard and then falls on its face.
There are ways to mellow the elements, but that is getting into the magic, If your pump guy knows what each part does and what it relates to, then he should be able to select the proper parts to make it work. If he is just a rebuilder, then its a crap shoot.
That is why I am building my own calibration machine.
The 6.5s that Tom had made were so close to the 5.5s that it was no different to build one than a stock one, which made it easy for anyone to have one put together. Now getting up into the7s and 8 +s, that’s a different ball game.
12-29-2012, 11:51 PM
#10
As for my pump guy, unfortunately I'm relying a 'spec' guy, but in his shop there are 3 other builders. I'm hoping between all of them, we might make some progress. If not I will find someone I can work with. I'm also hoping I might find the missing info on this forum so we all benefit.
How much are the 10mm elements you are most partial to?
(12-29-2012, 07:59 PM)OM616(12-29-2012, 06:53 PM)Austincarnut How much grief do you think the 8mm plungers are vs the 10mm vs the stock? I mean in your opinion should a seasoned pump builder be capable of making something like this work fairly easily and reliably without reverse engineering the entire pump. This provided the quality of the elements are adequate of course.
Well..... So far I have spoken to several "seasoned" pump guys, even some that build hot Cummins pumps, and they are good at setting everything pre the specks that they are given, but none really know how everything relates to each other, and very few can tune a governor outside of the standard specks they have.
You should really talk to your pump guy and feel him out. Has he done this type of build before?
As far as 8mm to 10mm, it all really depends on the end of injection helix. If the helix is real steep, tuning the Governor will be tricky, it is real easy to get it to where it comes on hard and then falls on its face.
There are ways to mellow the elements, but that is getting into the magic, If your pump guy knows what each part does and what it relates to, then he should be able to select the proper parts to make it work. If he is just a rebuilder, then its a crap shoot.
That is why I am building my own calibration machine.
The 6.5s that Tom had made were so close to the 5.5s that it was no different to build one than a stock one, which made it easy for anyone to have one put together. Now getting up into the7s and 8 +s, that’s a different ball game.
Austincarnut
12-29-2012, 11:51 PM #10I'm curious how hard it would be to take the stock 5.5mm element and copy it to make a larger version with the proper adjustment to the helix, fill ports and housing. Correct me if it sounds too labor intensive or too simple : Take the stock 5.5mm plunger and a comparable 10mm plunger, modify the 10mm 'male' portions to reflect the 5.5mm. Next take the 5.5mm 'female' portion and enlarge to fit this new modified part. assemble and attempt to calibrate. basically scale back the 10mm to lets say 7-7.5mm.
As for my pump guy, unfortunately I'm relying a 'spec' guy, but in his shop there are 3 other builders. I'm hoping between all of them, we might make some progress. If not I will find someone I can work with. I'm also hoping I might find the missing info on this forum so we all benefit.
How much are the 10mm elements you are most partial to?
(12-29-2012, 07:59 PM)OM616(12-29-2012, 06:53 PM)Austincarnut How much grief do you think the 8mm plungers are vs the 10mm vs the stock? I mean in your opinion should a seasoned pump builder be capable of making something like this work fairly easily and reliably without reverse engineering the entire pump. This provided the quality of the elements are adequate of course.
Well..... So far I have spoken to several "seasoned" pump guys, even some that build hot Cummins pumps, and they are good at setting everything pre the specks that they are given, but none really know how everything relates to each other, and very few can tune a governor outside of the standard specks they have.
You should really talk to your pump guy and feel him out. Has he done this type of build before?
As far as 8mm to 10mm, it all really depends on the end of injection helix. If the helix is real steep, tuning the Governor will be tricky, it is real easy to get it to where it comes on hard and then falls on its face.
There are ways to mellow the elements, but that is getting into the magic, If your pump guy knows what each part does and what it relates to, then he should be able to select the proper parts to make it work. If he is just a rebuilder, then its a crap shoot.
That is why I am building my own calibration machine.
The 6.5s that Tom had made were so close to the 5.5s that it was no different to build one than a stock one, which made it easy for anyone to have one put together. Now getting up into the7s and 8 +s, that’s a different ball game.
12-30-2012, 01:35 AM
#11
It is way more complicated than you think. I made some calculations of my own over a year ago and modified the helix on the first set of 10mm elements I used, I now know that I was not taking into account a very important action, (for lack of a better term), that has a big effect of the actual delivery capability. I thought I had a lot of fuel left, but in reality I was right at about the max with my set up. I know that now because I have a much better understanding of the mysterious events that take place during operation.
Even the amount of fuel delivered is a variable that needs to be taken into consideration. I do not know how long Tom researched elements before he made his first set, but I have spent a couple of years, and I was totally wrong about how some parts worked up until about 6 months ago! Always learning and rethinking what I know, or think I know.
I have benefited greatly from others behind the seens, and I feel that they entrusted me with who they were for one, and what they offered. I am very grateful for the hints and conformations, regardless if I was right in my thinking, or wrong. I ultimately had to put all the pieces of the puzzle together my self, as no one person had, or volunteered all the pieces.
Here is a puzzle for you, if you can answer it correctly, you have a good idea of what is going on, and may be able to design an element as you mentioned.
Foundation; You have a MW pump, (the size of the elements does not matter), the rack is locked at say 13mm, and you set the delivery quantity to say 90cc/Krevs at 2000 Pump RPM. You are running standard lines and master injectors that pop at 150bar.
You leave to go to lunch, and while you are gone I change a part to mess with you. When you come back, you decide to check the out put again, but this time there is only 70cc/Krevs. You check the barrel locations, they are the same, you check the rack position, it is the same, you check the RPM, it is the same, you check the lines and injectors, they are the same.
I then tell you to go and get some pops from the store 3 miles down the road. When you come back you test the output again, and this time it is putting out 128cc/Krevs, and you check everything again, and it is all the same as it was when you got 90cc.
What did I change on your pump, and why did it have the effect it did?
Tom has all ready gone through the process of designing an element and after a bunch of research, it still took a couple of tries to get the design right.
It is way more complicated than you think. I made some calculations of my own over a year ago and modified the helix on the first set of 10mm elements I used, I now know that I was not taking into account a very important action, (for lack of a better term), that has a big effect of the actual delivery capability. I thought I had a lot of fuel left, but in reality I was right at about the max with my set up. I know that now because I have a much better understanding of the mysterious events that take place during operation.
Even the amount of fuel delivered is a variable that needs to be taken into consideration. I do not know how long Tom researched elements before he made his first set, but I have spent a couple of years, and I was totally wrong about how some parts worked up until about 6 months ago! Always learning and rethinking what I know, or think I know.
I have benefited greatly from others behind the seens, and I feel that they entrusted me with who they were for one, and what they offered. I am very grateful for the hints and conformations, regardless if I was right in my thinking, or wrong. I ultimately had to put all the pieces of the puzzle together my self, as no one person had, or volunteered all the pieces.
Here is a puzzle for you, if you can answer it correctly, you have a good idea of what is going on, and may be able to design an element as you mentioned.
Foundation; You have a MW pump, (the size of the elements does not matter), the rack is locked at say 13mm, and you set the delivery quantity to say 90cc/Krevs at 2000 Pump RPM. You are running standard lines and master injectors that pop at 150bar.
You leave to go to lunch, and while you are gone I change a part to mess with you. When you come back, you decide to check the out put again, but this time there is only 70cc/Krevs. You check the barrel locations, they are the same, you check the rack position, it is the same, you check the RPM, it is the same, you check the lines and injectors, they are the same.
I then tell you to go and get some pops from the store 3 miles down the road. When you come back you test the output again, and this time it is putting out 128cc/Krevs, and you check everything again, and it is all the same as it was when you got 90cc.
What did I change on your pump, and why did it have the effect it did?
12-30-2012, 09:00 AM
#12
(12-30-2012, 01:35 AM)OM616 Tom has all ready gone through the process of designing an element and after a bunch of research, it still took a couple of tries to get the design right.
It is way more complicated than you think.
This is not intended to be offending, just a neutral statement!
From what I read here all of you could put all your knowledge in one bucket and that would probably be 25% of the knowledge Tomnik has concerning elements.
Gruß
Volker
(12-30-2012, 01:35 AM)OM616 Tom has all ready gone through the process of designing an element and after a bunch of research, it still took a couple of tries to get the design right.
It is way more complicated than you think.
This is not intended to be offending, just a neutral statement!
From what I read here all of you could put all your knowledge in one bucket and that would probably be 25% of the knowledge Tomnik has concerning elements.
Gruß
Volker
12-30-2012, 09:05 AM
#13
(12-30-2012, 09:00 AM)Volker407(12-30-2012, 01:35 AM)OM616 Tom has all ready gone through the process of designing an element and after a bunch of research, it still took a couple of tries to get the design right.
It is way more complicated than you think.
This is not intended to be offending, just a neutral statement!
From what I read here all of you could put all your knowledge in one bucket and that would probably be 25% of the knowledge Tomnik has concerning elements.
Gruß
Volker
Austincarnut
12-30-2012, 09:05 AM #13What can you add to help the situation?
(12-30-2012, 09:00 AM)Volker407(12-30-2012, 01:35 AM)OM616 Tom has all ready gone through the process of designing an element and after a bunch of research, it still took a couple of tries to get the design right.
It is way more complicated than you think.
This is not intended to be offending, just a neutral statement!
From what I read here all of you could put all your knowledge in one bucket and that would probably be 25% of the knowledge Tomnik has concerning elements.
Gruß
Volker
12-30-2012, 10:05 AM
#15
OM616: Are you referring to the delivery valve and/or DV spring?
(12-30-2012, 09:52 AM)Volker407(12-30-2012, 09:05 AM)Austincarnut What can you add to help the situation?
That´s the sad part of the story. I´m not allowed to help. That has nothing to do with Tomnik, it has to do with my source of information.
Gruß
Volker
Austincarnut
12-30-2012, 10:05 AM #15This is exactly what I referred to before, the 'I know something you don't know' bs that goes on frequently with some members on these forums. Although it is good that it goes on because it motivates us to figure things out that we would not ordinarily concentrate on.
OM616: Are you referring to the delivery valve and/or DV spring?
(12-30-2012, 09:52 AM)Volker407(12-30-2012, 09:05 AM)Austincarnut What can you add to help the situation?
That´s the sad part of the story. I´m not allowed to help. That has nothing to do with Tomnik, it has to do with my source of information.
Gruß
Volker
12-30-2012, 11:42 AM
#16
Now om616 a question for you what do you think your running your pump at with the 10mm parts based on 0 to 100% of its capacity?
We all have different setups on our cars so no ones should run the same but if we find a person to mess with a mw pump and install 10mm then detune it to what a stock 5.5mm can do then let the owner tweek it from there or we can all go uniform with how we build our cars and that would suck lol
1982 300tdt the tinker toy from hell
Mods garret 55 trim turbo, alda full adjustment, oil filter relocated
wagonfreak
12-30-2012, 11:42 AM #16Well i think for the sake of demand if it all works is go with 10mm since we can get them so that leaves it all to the adjustments of the pumps right?
Now om616 a question for you what do you think your running your pump at with the 10mm parts based on 0 to 100% of its capacity?
We all have different setups on our cars so no ones should run the same but if we find a person to mess with a mw pump and install 10mm then detune it to what a stock 5.5mm can do then let the owner tweek it from there or we can all go uniform with how we build our cars and that would suck lol
1982 300tdt the tinker toy from hell
Mods garret 55 trim turbo, alda full adjustment, oil filter relocated
12-30-2012, 12:29 PM
#17
(12-30-2012, 09:00 AM)Volker407 This is not intended to be offending, just a neutral statement!
From what I read here all of you could put all your knowledge in one bucket and that would probably be 25% of the knowledge Tomnik has concerning elements.
Gruß
Volker
Well Said!!!!!!!!! A MEN!!!!!!!!
That was what I was trying to imply with out being so blunt lol. Some times direct is the best way to go.
I am about to test my understanding again, so I will see how much I still don't know that I don't know..... If that makes any sense.
(12-30-2012, 10:05 AM)Austincarnut This is exactly what I referred to before, the 'I know something you don't know' bs that goes on frequently with some members on these forums. Although it is good that it goes on because it motivates us to figure things out that we would not ordinarily concentrate on.
OM616: Are you referring to the delivery valve and/or DV spring?
To be clear, you have said that you have a professional pump shop, that makes money rebuilding pumps, lined up to build Superpumps which will make them more money, and you want everyone who has spent their time am money to get the knowledge they have, to just tell you how to do it, so your pump guy can make some extra cash with out investing anything.
I have a local shop that wants me to tell them how to do it for nothing, I am all for helping out someone who I see is really making an effort on their own to figure it out, but to be blunt… standing with a hand out demanding something turns me off. Also, barking at those who might know something you don’t is not the best way to win them over.
Now moving on;
I will accept your question as an answer, yes it is the DV, (No points yet as you still need to answer the second part)
Now why does changing the DV have that affect, and how does it do it, and what does the DV relate to?
(12-30-2012, 11:42 AM)wagonfreak Well i think for the sake of demand if it all works is go with 10mm since we can get them so that leaves it all to the adjustments of the pumps right?
Now om616 a question for you what do you think your running your pump at with the 10mm parts based on 0 to 100% of its capacity?
We all have different setups on our cars so no ones should run the same but if we find a person to mess with a mw pump and install 10mm then detune it to what a stock 5.5mm can do then let the owner tweek it from there or we can all go uniform with how we build our cars and that would suck lol
With the right parts, a 10mm pump could deliver over 300cc/KRevs (I did not do the math, I bet it could do more).
Picking the best 10mm element to use is one part, (there are many different ones), I ordered 6 or so of them before I found one that I like, and that is not so say there is not a better one to use that I have not found yet.
Installing them is a standard process for a speck pump shop, they just need the specks for that element.
The first issue starts with tuning the governor, that is what has the local shop hung up, it will go like hell and then fall flat on it's face, and they can not figure out how to tune it.
Another issue is, if you get the delivered quantity where you want it, then it becomes a matter of delivered quantity and rate of delivery matching the injectors, here is a hint, they won't match. This caused nailing, high EGTs, and smoke.
I get asked all the time what is taking me so long, and it is because I am researching all the parts that play a role, so when I build a pump, it will do what I want it to.
A 10mm pump can be built to put out the stock 50ish ccs max with good drivability, but with that set up, the owner may not be able to turn it up to put out 100cc, at least I don't think so, haven’t tried it.
This post was last modified: 12-30-2012, 01:04 PM by OM616.
(12-30-2012, 09:00 AM)Volker407 This is not intended to be offending, just a neutral statement!
From what I read here all of you could put all your knowledge in one bucket and that would probably be 25% of the knowledge Tomnik has concerning elements.
Gruß
Volker
Well Said!!!!!!!!! A MEN!!!!!!!!
That was what I was trying to imply with out being so blunt lol. Some times direct is the best way to go.
I am about to test my understanding again, so I will see how much I still don't know that I don't know..... If that makes any sense.
(12-30-2012, 10:05 AM)Austincarnut This is exactly what I referred to before, the 'I know something you don't know' bs that goes on frequently with some members on these forums. Although it is good that it goes on because it motivates us to figure things out that we would not ordinarily concentrate on.
OM616: Are you referring to the delivery valve and/or DV spring?
To be clear, you have said that you have a professional pump shop, that makes money rebuilding pumps, lined up to build Superpumps which will make them more money, and you want everyone who has spent their time am money to get the knowledge they have, to just tell you how to do it, so your pump guy can make some extra cash with out investing anything.
I have a local shop that wants me to tell them how to do it for nothing, I am all for helping out someone who I see is really making an effort on their own to figure it out, but to be blunt… standing with a hand out demanding something turns me off. Also, barking at those who might know something you don’t is not the best way to win them over.
Now moving on;
I will accept your question as an answer, yes it is the DV, (No points yet as you still need to answer the second part)
Now why does changing the DV have that affect, and how does it do it, and what does the DV relate to?
(12-30-2012, 11:42 AM)wagonfreak Well i think for the sake of demand if it all works is go with 10mm since we can get them so that leaves it all to the adjustments of the pumps right?
Now om616 a question for you what do you think your running your pump at with the 10mm parts based on 0 to 100% of its capacity?
We all have different setups on our cars so no ones should run the same but if we find a person to mess with a mw pump and install 10mm then detune it to what a stock 5.5mm can do then let the owner tweek it from there or we can all go uniform with how we build our cars and that would suck lol
With the right parts, a 10mm pump could deliver over 300cc/KRevs (I did not do the math, I bet it could do more).
Picking the best 10mm element to use is one part, (there are many different ones), I ordered 6 or so of them before I found one that I like, and that is not so say there is not a better one to use that I have not found yet.
Installing them is a standard process for a speck pump shop, they just need the specks for that element.
The first issue starts with tuning the governor, that is what has the local shop hung up, it will go like hell and then fall flat on it's face, and they can not figure out how to tune it.
Another issue is, if you get the delivered quantity where you want it, then it becomes a matter of delivered quantity and rate of delivery matching the injectors, here is a hint, they won't match. This caused nailing, high EGTs, and smoke.
I get asked all the time what is taking me so long, and it is because I am researching all the parts that play a role, so when I build a pump, it will do what I want it to.
A 10mm pump can be built to put out the stock 50ish ccs max with good drivability, but with that set up, the owner may not be able to turn it up to put out 100cc, at least I don't think so, haven’t tried it.
12-30-2012, 01:40 PM
#18
EVERYTHING in the entire pump circuit is interdependent, The plunger, the cam, its lift, its lift speed, the element barrel, its spill-ports/filling ports, the helix, the top-cut, the Delivery-valve, its size, the position of and thickness of the collar, its closing spring the number and thickness of the DV shims, the hard-line length, its material, its internal and external diameter, the Injector, its spring, its opening pressure and the type of nozzle.....
ANY the above altered will have serious/not so serious effects on the performance of the whole system, depending on what is altered.....
All the above is then related to the black-arts that is the mechanical Governor of the pump!
So--when someone says they want to change an Element for a bigger one--They have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA exactly WHAT they are asking for, and the number of factors that have to be considered!
If it were as simple as replacing one part for another--EVERY BUGGER WOULD BE DOING IT!
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
12-30-2012, 01:40 PM #18What all you guys need to keep in mind when you ask the pump gurus whats what is--
EVERYTHING in the entire pump circuit is interdependent, The plunger, the cam, its lift, its lift speed, the element barrel, its spill-ports/filling ports, the helix, the top-cut, the Delivery-valve, its size, the position of and thickness of the collar, its closing spring the number and thickness of the DV shims, the hard-line length, its material, its internal and external diameter, the Injector, its spring, its opening pressure and the type of nozzle.....
ANY the above altered will have serious/not so serious effects on the performance of the whole system, depending on what is altered.....
All the above is then related to the black-arts that is the mechanical Governor of the pump!
So--when someone says they want to change an Element for a bigger one--They have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA exactly WHAT they are asking for, and the number of factors that have to be considered!
If it were as simple as replacing one part for another--EVERY BUGGER WOULD BE DOING IT!
12-30-2012, 02:25 PM
#19
To be perfectly honest, I've considering hiring an engineering student out of UT or A&M here and putting them to task. I have more chance with success that route than haphazardly slapping parts together that happened to be available rather than custom making the necessary parts, although it would be much more expensive.
My end result I would share with those who'd want it, free. Its funny, despite the surplus of MW's we have in this country, there still won't ever be more than a niche market for the final product.
So, OM616, are you interested in building a pump if I pay you?
Austincarnut
12-30-2012, 02:25 PM #19My pump guy is working on a flat fee out of my pocket, the he won't be profiting, believe me. He will be doing me a favor. The long learning curve and sacrificial vehicle w/ built engine will eat away at a finished product's estimated completion. The money I'm willing to invest is for developing a cheap alternative as previously stated, nothing more. I have asked if you would be interested in a collaboration but you never responded directly. I appreciate the time and effort you and others have invested and I don't want any freebie's. At this point, I am willing to pay for the r&d for a somewhat plug and play product.
To be perfectly honest, I've considering hiring an engineering student out of UT or A&M here and putting them to task. I have more chance with success that route than haphazardly slapping parts together that happened to be available rather than custom making the necessary parts, although it would be much more expensive.
My end result I would share with those who'd want it, free. Its funny, despite the surplus of MW's we have in this country, there still won't ever be more than a niche market for the final product.
So, OM616, are you interested in building a pump if I pay you?
12-30-2012, 03:42 PM
#20
(12-30-2012, 12:29 PM)OM616(12-30-2012, 09:00 AM)Volker407 This is not intended to be offending, just a neutral statement!
From what I read here all of you could put all your knowledge in one bucket and that would probably be 25% of the knowledge Tomnik has concerning elements.
Gruß
Volker
Well Said!!!!!!!!! A MEN!!!!!!!!
That was what I was trying to imply with out being so blunt lol. Some times direct is the best way to go.
I am about to test my understanding again, so I will see how much I still don't know that I don't know..... If that makes any sense.
(12-30-2012, 10:05 AM)Austincarnut This is exactly what I referred to before, the 'I know something you don't know' bs that goes on frequently with some members on these forums. Although it is good that it goes on because it motivates us to figure things out that we would not ordinarily concentrate on.
OM616: Are you referring to the delivery valve and/or DV spring?
To be clear, you have said that you have a professional pump shop, that makes money rebuilding pumps, lined up to build Superpumps which will make them more money, and you want everyone who has spent their time am money to get the knowledge they have, to just tell you how to do it, so your pump guy can make some extra cash with out investing anything.
I have a local shop that wants me to tell them how to do it for nothing, I am all for helping out someone who I see is really making an effort on their own to figure it out, but to be blunt… standing with a hand out demanding something turns me off. Also, barking at those who might know something you don’t is not the best way to win them over.
Now moving on;
I will accept your question as an answer, yes it is the DV, (No points yet as you still need to answer the second part)
Now why does changing the DV have that affect, and how does it do it, and what does the DV relate to?
(12-30-2012, 11:42 AM)wagonfreak Well i think for the sake of demand if it all works is go with 10mm since we can get them so that leaves it all to the adjustments of the pumps right?
Now om616 a question for you what do you think your running your pump at with the 10mm parts based on 0 to 100% of its capacity?
We all have different setups on our cars so no ones should run the same but if we find a person to mess with a mw pump and install 10mm then detune it to what a stock 5.5mm can do then let the owner tweek it from there or we can all go uniform with how we build our cars and that would suck lol
With the right parts, a 10mm pump could deliver over 300cc/KRevs (I did not do the math, I bet it could do more).
Picking the best 10mm element to use is one part, (there are many different ones), I ordered 6 or so of them before I found one that I like, and that is not so say there is not a better one to use that I have not found yet.
Installing them is a standard process for a speck pump shop, they just need the specks for that element.
The first issue starts with tuning the governor, that is what has the local shop hung up, it will go like hell and then fall flat on it's face, and they can not figure out how to tune it.
Another issue is, if you get the delivered quantity where you want it, then it becomes a matter of delivered quantity and rate of delivery matching the injectors, here is a hint, they won't match. This caused nailing, high EGTs, and smoke.
I get asked all the time what is taking me so long, and it is because I am researching all the parts that play a role, so when I build a pump, it will do what I want it to.
A 10mm pump can be built to put out the stock 50ish ccs max with good drivability, but with that set up, the owner may not be able to turn it up to put out 100cc, at least I don't think so, haven’t tried it.
This post was last modified: 12-30-2012, 03:43 PM by Austincarnut.
Austincarnut
12-30-2012, 03:42 PM #20What you're getting at is that everything is tied together as it is a machine that works off of tolerances. You change the size/shape of any aspect of that working part of the machine, you get changes that affect the rest of the machine's job. With the delivery valve changes, you increase/decrease fuel as it directly affects fuel amount entering the circuit. This is akin to adjusting the rack position without adjusting the governor.... (?)
(12-30-2012, 12:29 PM)OM616(12-30-2012, 09:00 AM)Volker407 This is not intended to be offending, just a neutral statement!
From what I read here all of you could put all your knowledge in one bucket and that would probably be 25% of the knowledge Tomnik has concerning elements.
Gruß
Volker
Well Said!!!!!!!!! A MEN!!!!!!!!
That was what I was trying to imply with out being so blunt lol. Some times direct is the best way to go.
I am about to test my understanding again, so I will see how much I still don't know that I don't know..... If that makes any sense.
(12-30-2012, 10:05 AM)Austincarnut This is exactly what I referred to before, the 'I know something you don't know' bs that goes on frequently with some members on these forums. Although it is good that it goes on because it motivates us to figure things out that we would not ordinarily concentrate on.
OM616: Are you referring to the delivery valve and/or DV spring?
To be clear, you have said that you have a professional pump shop, that makes money rebuilding pumps, lined up to build Superpumps which will make them more money, and you want everyone who has spent their time am money to get the knowledge they have, to just tell you how to do it, so your pump guy can make some extra cash with out investing anything.
I have a local shop that wants me to tell them how to do it for nothing, I am all for helping out someone who I see is really making an effort on their own to figure it out, but to be blunt… standing with a hand out demanding something turns me off. Also, barking at those who might know something you don’t is not the best way to win them over.
Now moving on;
I will accept your question as an answer, yes it is the DV, (No points yet as you still need to answer the second part)
Now why does changing the DV have that affect, and how does it do it, and what does the DV relate to?
(12-30-2012, 11:42 AM)wagonfreak Well i think for the sake of demand if it all works is go with 10mm since we can get them so that leaves it all to the adjustments of the pumps right?
Now om616 a question for you what do you think your running your pump at with the 10mm parts based on 0 to 100% of its capacity?
We all have different setups on our cars so no ones should run the same but if we find a person to mess with a mw pump and install 10mm then detune it to what a stock 5.5mm can do then let the owner tweek it from there or we can all go uniform with how we build our cars and that would suck lol
With the right parts, a 10mm pump could deliver over 300cc/KRevs (I did not do the math, I bet it could do more).
Picking the best 10mm element to use is one part, (there are many different ones), I ordered 6 or so of them before I found one that I like, and that is not so say there is not a better one to use that I have not found yet.
Installing them is a standard process for a speck pump shop, they just need the specks for that element.
The first issue starts with tuning the governor, that is what has the local shop hung up, it will go like hell and then fall flat on it's face, and they can not figure out how to tune it.
Another issue is, if you get the delivered quantity where you want it, then it becomes a matter of delivered quantity and rate of delivery matching the injectors, here is a hint, they won't match. This caused nailing, high EGTs, and smoke.
I get asked all the time what is taking me so long, and it is because I am researching all the parts that play a role, so when I build a pump, it will do what I want it to.
A 10mm pump can be built to put out the stock 50ish ccs max with good drivability, but with that set up, the owner may not be able to turn it up to put out 100cc, at least I don't think so, haven’t tried it.
12-30-2012, 04:31 PM
#21
(12-30-2012, 03:42 PM)Austincarnut With the delivery valve changes, you increase/decrease fuel as it directly affects fuel amount entering the circuit. This is akin to adjusting the rack position without adjusting the governor.... (?)
No, the DV controls the amount of fuel that returns from the high pressure side, to the element side after the end of injection. The DV's effect is critical to a stable injection, and if properly matched to its related components, can be used to change the delivery characteristic of an element.
The above exercise was an attempt to demonstrate that the idea of comparing the helixes of different elements for different applications, and designing one based on some average is not a controlled way to do it, yes you may get lucky, but you wont know why it worked out.
Like was said, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I am not sure if Dieselmeken or PP D will build a custom MW, as they use M pumps over there.
I am over loaded with my normal work and don't expect to have my calibration machine done until the spring. Then I am committed to building a couple of pumps, once those are done, it will depend on my free time how many more I build.
You seem hell bent on getting one built, so I say if your pump guy is willing to play with you, see what he can do with one.
I bet he can get the 8mm elements from Bosch, they will just be a little pricey is all.
(12-30-2012, 03:42 PM)Austincarnut With the delivery valve changes, you increase/decrease fuel as it directly affects fuel amount entering the circuit. This is akin to adjusting the rack position without adjusting the governor.... (?)
No, the DV controls the amount of fuel that returns from the high pressure side, to the element side after the end of injection. The DV's effect is critical to a stable injection, and if properly matched to its related components, can be used to change the delivery characteristic of an element.
The above exercise was an attempt to demonstrate that the idea of comparing the helixes of different elements for different applications, and designing one based on some average is not a controlled way to do it, yes you may get lucky, but you wont know why it worked out.
Like was said, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I am not sure if Dieselmeken or PP D will build a custom MW, as they use M pumps over there.
I am over loaded with my normal work and don't expect to have my calibration machine done until the spring. Then I am committed to building a couple of pumps, once those are done, it will depend on my free time how many more I build.
You seem hell bent on getting one built, so I say if your pump guy is willing to play with you, see what he can do with one.
I bet he can get the 8mm elements from Bosch, they will just be a little pricey is all.
12-30-2012, 05:47 PM
#22
(12-30-2012, 04:31 PM)OM616(12-30-2012, 03:42 PM)Austincarnut With the delivery valve changes, you increase/decrease fuel as it directly affects fuel amount entering the circuit. This is akin to adjusting the rack position without adjusting the governor.... (?)
No, the DV controls the amount of fuel that returns from the high pressure side, to the element side after the end of injection. The DV's effect is critical to a stable injection, and if properly matched to its related components, can be used to change the delivery characteristic of an element.
The above exercise was an attempt to demonstrate that the idea of comparing the helixes of different elements for different applications, and designing one based on some average is not a controlled way to do it, yes you may get lucky, but you wont know why it worked out.
Like was said, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I am not sure if Dieselmeken or PP D will build a custom MW, as they use M pumps over there.
I am over loaded with my normal work and don't expect to have my calibration machine done until the spring. Then I am committed to building a couple of pumps, once those are done, it will depend on my free time how many more I build.
You seem hell bent on getting one built, so I say if your pump guy is willing to play with you, see what he can do with one.
I bet he can get the 8mm elements from Bosch, they will just be a little pricey is all.
Austincarnut
12-30-2012, 05:47 PM #22Fair enough. I'll do some more digging and see if they can be had. Like I said, if you help me out of a bind, I have no problem paying. I have never built or modded a pump other than dick around with 12 valve pumps. I always have left that to the builder who hasn't failed me yet. I have several side customers approach me about the idea, that is my main motivation. I'll gain the flat rate labor time, parts supplier will get theirs, whoever builds the pump will get his...
(12-30-2012, 04:31 PM)OM616(12-30-2012, 03:42 PM)Austincarnut With the delivery valve changes, you increase/decrease fuel as it directly affects fuel amount entering the circuit. This is akin to adjusting the rack position without adjusting the governor.... (?)
No, the DV controls the amount of fuel that returns from the high pressure side, to the element side after the end of injection. The DV's effect is critical to a stable injection, and if properly matched to its related components, can be used to change the delivery characteristic of an element.
The above exercise was an attempt to demonstrate that the idea of comparing the helixes of different elements for different applications, and designing one based on some average is not a controlled way to do it, yes you may get lucky, but you wont know why it worked out.
Like was said, if it was easy everyone would be doing it. I am not sure if Dieselmeken or PP D will build a custom MW, as they use M pumps over there.
I am over loaded with my normal work and don't expect to have my calibration machine done until the spring. Then I am committed to building a couple of pumps, once those are done, it will depend on my free time how many more I build.
You seem hell bent on getting one built, so I say if your pump guy is willing to play with you, see what he can do with one.
I bet he can get the 8mm elements from Bosch, they will just be a little pricey is all.
12-30-2012, 09:08 PM
#23
(12-30-2012, 05:47 PM)Austincarnut Fair enough. I'll do some more digging and see if they can be had. Like I said, if you help me out of a bind, I have no problem paying. I have never built or modded a pump other than dick around with 12 valve pumps. I always have left that to the builder who hasn't failed me yet. I have several side customers approach me about the idea, that is my main motivation. I'll gain the flat rate labor time, parts supplier will get theirs, whoever builds the pump will get his...
I don't mean to come off like, "pay me or else". My point is you are looking to go into business, and your pump guy is going to have to take a chance and spend some time researching and playing, that is how he will invest in the effort, you can't tell me that he is going to loose money on every pump you bring him. Yes, the first one will be an investment on his part to test the waters and see how much he will need to get to make it worth his time, your flat rate may have to go up.
If you think about it, he has a lot more access to the secret info than 99% of us.
I think I have shown that I am willing to share "secret" info, as I have written a RW Governor operation doc. and helped several members get their governor adjustments to a successful outcome. Those are people, and it is good to help people who make the effort. A business on the other hand is different.
Your pump guy has access to a lot of good stuff, my question is why are you not asking him?
Some time ago there was a pump shop that would build a MW for $500.00 plus elements. Nothing came of it. I hate to think you are going to drop cash trying to fill a tiny market. I have been there and got a few tee-shirts.
(12-30-2012, 05:47 PM)Austincarnut Fair enough. I'll do some more digging and see if they can be had. Like I said, if you help me out of a bind, I have no problem paying. I have never built or modded a pump other than dick around with 12 valve pumps. I always have left that to the builder who hasn't failed me yet. I have several side customers approach me about the idea, that is my main motivation. I'll gain the flat rate labor time, parts supplier will get theirs, whoever builds the pump will get his...
I don't mean to come off like, "pay me or else". My point is you are looking to go into business, and your pump guy is going to have to take a chance and spend some time researching and playing, that is how he will invest in the effort, you can't tell me that he is going to loose money on every pump you bring him. Yes, the first one will be an investment on his part to test the waters and see how much he will need to get to make it worth his time, your flat rate may have to go up.
If you think about it, he has a lot more access to the secret info than 99% of us.
I think I have shown that I am willing to share "secret" info, as I have written a RW Governor operation doc. and helped several members get their governor adjustments to a successful outcome. Those are people, and it is good to help people who make the effort. A business on the other hand is different.
Your pump guy has access to a lot of good stuff, my question is why are you not asking him?
Some time ago there was a pump shop that would build a MW for $500.00 plus elements. Nothing came of it. I hate to think you are going to drop cash trying to fill a tiny market. I have been there and got a few tee-shirts.
12-30-2012, 09:40 PM
#24
http://www.everychina.com/products/diese...etail.html
just thought it was weird that it says its for a renault
but found this site as well
http://www.eparts.com.cn/aic/oe1418415058_342050.shtml
says it has nuoze? plunger with a list price of $16.78
but if you type bosch it brings up the same site it says contact them for pricing but it all looks like china crap to me
1982 300tdt the tinker toy from hell
Mods garret 55 trim turbo, alda full adjustment, oil filter relocated
wagonfreak
12-30-2012, 09:40 PM #24So i was digging online and to try and find the 8mm elements with the part number om616 reposted for us and found this site
http://www.everychina.com/products/diese...etail.html
just thought it was weird that it says its for a renault
but found this site as well
http://www.eparts.com.cn/aic/oe1418415058_342050.shtml
says it has nuoze? plunger with a list price of $16.78
but if you type bosch it brings up the same site it says contact them for pricing but it all looks like china crap to me
1982 300tdt the tinker toy from hell
Mods garret 55 trim turbo, alda full adjustment, oil filter relocated
12-30-2012, 09:51 PM
#25
(12-30-2012, 09:08 PM)OM616(12-30-2012, 05:47 PM)Austincarnut Fair enough. I'll do some more digging and see if they can be had. Like I said, if you help me out of a bind, I have no problem paying. I have never built or modded a pump other than dick around with 12 valve pumps. I always have left that to the builder who hasn't failed me yet. I have several side customers approach me about the idea, that is my main motivation. I'll gain the flat rate labor time, parts supplier will get theirs, whoever builds the pump will get his...
I don't mean to come off like, "pay me or else". My point is you are looking to go into business, and your pump guy is going to have to take a chance and spend some time researching and playing, that is how he will invest in the effort, you can't tell me that he is going to loose money on every pump you bring him. Yes, the first one will be an investment on his part to test the waters and see how much he will need to get to make it worth his time, your flat rate may have to go up.
If you think about it, he has a lot more access to the secret info than 99% of us.
I think I have shown that I am willing to share "secret" info, as I have written a RW Governor operation doc. and helped several members get their governor adjustments to a successful outcome. Those are people, and it is good to help people who make the effort. A business on the other hand is different.
Your pump guy has access to a lot of good stuff, my question is why are you not asking him?
Some time ago there was a pump shop that would build a MW for $500.00 plus elements. Nothing came of it. I hate to think you are going to drop cash trying to fill a tiny market. I have been there and got a few tee-shirts.
Austincarnut
12-30-2012, 09:51 PM #25I really am hell bent on making this happen. As I work hard for my money, I don't feel anyone else should go unrewarded. I have a very healthy respect for us blue collar types, so as we all have a similar goal, I'll be happy to help anyone if I can.
(12-30-2012, 09:08 PM)OM616(12-30-2012, 05:47 PM)Austincarnut Fair enough. I'll do some more digging and see if they can be had. Like I said, if you help me out of a bind, I have no problem paying. I have never built or modded a pump other than dick around with 12 valve pumps. I always have left that to the builder who hasn't failed me yet. I have several side customers approach me about the idea, that is my main motivation. I'll gain the flat rate labor time, parts supplier will get theirs, whoever builds the pump will get his...
I don't mean to come off like, "pay me or else". My point is you are looking to go into business, and your pump guy is going to have to take a chance and spend some time researching and playing, that is how he will invest in the effort, you can't tell me that he is going to loose money on every pump you bring him. Yes, the first one will be an investment on his part to test the waters and see how much he will need to get to make it worth his time, your flat rate may have to go up.
If you think about it, he has a lot more access to the secret info than 99% of us.
I think I have shown that I am willing to share "secret" info, as I have written a RW Governor operation doc. and helped several members get their governor adjustments to a successful outcome. Those are people, and it is good to help people who make the effort. A business on the other hand is different.
Your pump guy has access to a lot of good stuff, my question is why are you not asking him?
Some time ago there was a pump shop that would build a MW for $500.00 plus elements. Nothing came of it. I hate to think you are going to drop cash trying to fill a tiny market. I have been there and got a few tee-shirts.
12-31-2012, 01:00 AM
#26
(12-30-2012, 09:40 PM)wagonfreak just thought it was weird that it says its for a renault
That is what it was used on. 99% of the suppliers you will find on line are in China.
Monark makes elements too, but I have no idea how much they would cost. Several people have tried to order the 8mm elements with no luck. That is why I said if some one is going to have some elements made, the 8mm ones would be the most marketable.
Do a search on this forum for 8mm elements, or something like that. This has all been done before, nothing new here,
(12-30-2012, 09:40 PM)wagonfreak just thought it was weird that it says its for a renault
That is what it was used on. 99% of the suppliers you will find on line are in China.
Monark makes elements too, but I have no idea how much they would cost. Several people have tried to order the 8mm elements with no luck. That is why I said if some one is going to have some elements made, the 8mm ones would be the most marketable.
Do a search on this forum for 8mm elements, or something like that. This has all been done before, nothing new here,
12-31-2012, 01:39 AM
#27
1982 300tdt the tinker toy from hell
Mods garret 55 trim turbo, alda full adjustment, oil filter relocated
wagonfreak
12-31-2012, 01:39 AM #27Well i did go way back to the back pages of the engine section and found the original post with both numbers given 1 418 415 058 and 1 418 415 049 couldnt find anything on the second part number except something to do with rape? lol
1982 300tdt the tinker toy from hell
Mods garret 55 trim turbo, alda full adjustment, oil filter relocated
12-31-2012, 12:34 PM
#28
(12-31-2012, 01:39 AM)wagonfreak Well i did go way back to the back pages of the engine section and found the original post with both numbers given 1 418 415 058 and 1 418 415 049 couldnt find anything on the second part number except something to do with rape? lol
This post was last modified: 12-31-2012, 12:35 PM by Austincarnut.
Austincarnut
12-31-2012, 12:34 PM #28Hmm, I'm going to see if I can redraw the stock element in CAD, then go from there. I'd like to get another larger element in my hand to draw out. Both of those numbers show to be good plunger/element numbers in the catalog... No mention of rape so far!
(12-31-2012, 01:39 AM)wagonfreak Well i did go way back to the back pages of the engine section and found the original post with both numbers given 1 418 415 058 and 1 418 415 049 couldnt find anything on the second part number except something to do with rape? lol
12-31-2012, 01:00 PM
#29
Most of the manufacturers will make a min batch if they do not have any in stock, but you have to order 50 or so if I remember right, might be more.
This post was last modified: 12-31-2012, 01:14 PM by OM616.
12-31-2012, 03:12 PM
#30
1982 300tdt the tinker toy from hell
Mods garret 55 trim turbo, alda full adjustment, oil filter relocated
wagonfreak
12-31-2012, 03:12 PM #30Damn thats alot how many friends pumps you planning on building om616? maybe we can order for everyone will to pay for their share
1982 300tdt the tinker toy from hell
Mods garret 55 trim turbo, alda full adjustment, oil filter relocated
12-31-2012, 03:35 PM
#31
(12-31-2012, 01:00 PM)OM616 I found the other 8mm MW element # that I am aware of, it is 0 418 415 094 (not sure if it is thick or thin)
Most of the manufacturers will make a min batch if they do not have any in stock, but you have to order 50 or so if I remember right, might be more.
Austincarnut
12-31-2012, 03:35 PM #31Thank you...
(12-31-2012, 01:00 PM)OM616 I found the other 8mm MW element # that I am aware of, it is 0 418 415 094 (not sure if it is thick or thin)
Most of the manufacturers will make a min batch if they do not have any in stock, but you have to order 50 or so if I remember right, might be more.
12-31-2012, 04:41 PM
#32
(12-31-2012, 03:12 PM)wagonfreak Damn thats alot how many friends pumps you planning on building om616? maybe we can order for everyone will to pay for their share
What I meant was the manufacturers will make custom or not regularly stocked elements for you, but there is a minimum order quantity of at least 50 elements usually. The 8mm element is not regularly in stock, at least with every manufacturer I spoke to.
The element that I have chosen is regularly in stock, so I can order 1 if I want with out a problem.
Currently I am on the hook to build two pumps that are not mine.
(12-31-2012, 03:12 PM)wagonfreak Damn thats alot how many friends pumps you planning on building om616? maybe we can order for everyone will to pay for their share
What I meant was the manufacturers will make custom or not regularly stocked elements for you, but there is a minimum order quantity of at least 50 elements usually. The 8mm element is not regularly in stock, at least with every manufacturer I spoke to.
The element that I have chosen is regularly in stock, so I can order 1 if I want with out a problem.
Currently I am on the hook to build two pumps that are not mine.
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