clocking Injector pump barrels
clocking Injector pump barrels
If I understand this correctly. he twisted the barrels which I guess, and I do mean a guess; raised the barrels, which would increase the effective stroke before the plunger hits the spill port and stops the injection event . which effectively pumps more fuel?
This would be another way to get more fuel out of a inline mechanical pump in addition to making the adjustments in the govenor, and not replacing the elements.
So has anyone heard of this??
thanks
hi first time poster long time reader. Has anyone ever heard of or tried to "clock" the barrels on a om617 injector pump. I have been conversing with a fellow on Dieselbombers, and he did a mod to a pump on a Kubota diesel, that has so far given him good results. If I got him correct, the cummins guys are calling this barrel clocking. I did read the IP adjustment sticky thread here, and I did not see any thing there.
If I understand this correctly. he twisted the barrels which I guess, and I do mean a guess; raised the barrels, which would increase the effective stroke before the plunger hits the spill port and stops the injection event . which effectively pumps more fuel?
This would be another way to get more fuel out of a inline mechanical pump in addition to making the adjustments in the govenor, and not replacing the elements.
So has anyone heard of this??
thanks
(01-21-2013, 07:52 PM)xjdiesel hi first time poster long time reader. Has anyone ever heard of or tried to "clock" the barrels on a om617 injector pump. I have been conversing with a fellow on Dieselbombers, and he did a mod to a pump on a Kubota diesel, that has so far given him good results. If I got him correct, the cummins guys are calling this barrel clocking. I did read the IP adjustment sticky thread here, and I did not see any thing there.Clock the barrel, turn the barrel, It all ends up in disaster if you dont know what you do. On P-Pumps, Cummins, there is a possibility to turn the barrel/element for a little moore fuel, problem is if you raise on max, you also raise on low idle, adjustments on RQ / RQV governors, no problem, on a MW for example OM617 its a bit tricky.
If I understand this correctly. he twisted the barrels which I guess, and I do mean a guess; raised the barrels, which would increase the effective stroke before the plunger hits the spill port and stops the injection event . which effectively pumps more fuel?
This would be another way to get more fuel out of a inline mechanical pump in addition to making the adjustments in the govenor, and not replacing the elements.
So has anyone heard of this??
thanks
dieselmeken
01-22-2013, 04:07 AM #2(01-21-2013, 07:52 PM)xjdiesel hi first time poster long time reader. Has anyone ever heard of or tried to "clock" the barrels on a om617 injector pump. I have been conversing with a fellow on Dieselbombers, and he did a mod to a pump on a Kubota diesel, that has so far given him good results. If I got him correct, the cummins guys are calling this barrel clocking. I did read the IP adjustment sticky thread here, and I did not see any thing there.Clock the barrel, turn the barrel, It all ends up in disaster if you dont know what you do. On P-Pumps, Cummins, there is a possibility to turn the barrel/element for a little moore fuel, problem is if you raise on max, you also raise on low idle, adjustments on RQ / RQV governors, no problem, on a MW for example OM617 its a bit tricky.
If I understand this correctly. he twisted the barrels which I guess, and I do mean a guess; raised the barrels, which would increase the effective stroke before the plunger hits the spill port and stops the injection event . which effectively pumps more fuel?
This would be another way to get more fuel out of a inline mechanical pump in addition to making the adjustments in the govenor, and not replacing the elements.
So has anyone heard of this??
thanks
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I did this and by far the greatest power gains with stock elements. Downside, car idled like shit and wasnt that smooth any more. When you turn them, you are adjusting fuel quantity, lose that balance and you get my results. I did pull this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nREKAqKt1E with it. Still would recommend against it. Without a bench you are playing with fire.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
So it is possible on the M, and MW pumps?
Winmutt, so to do this was i correct in saying that you want to raise the barrel, or does the height stay the same, and you are changing/turning the barrel location in reference to the plungers groove?
Aren't you guys working with pump rebuilders quite a bit? Is it easiear to buy new larger elements, put them in than to do this mod with stock elements?
Maybe his pump is enough different that it is not so hard for him? I have never done any pump work, I am looking forward to it though. Just now I don't have a spare pump that I am willing to mess with.
I new I should have kept that spare 76 300d. It was worth more to me in partrs; or the scrapper than the measly $300 I sold it for. At the time it was more than I paid, and I had 2 others in stock. I keep looking for those under $300 300d's, but I have not found one in a long while now.
hi winmutt, thanks for the reply. So some people have heard of this. This fellow on DB did say it was tricky. He said the #1 cyl barrel was pinned to keep it stationary, and once he figured out how to unpin the #1 cyl barrel, and moved it, then he matched what he had done on the rest. Not sure if he used a bench or not. The guy on DB also claims significant gains, and no unpleasant side effects.
So it is possible on the M, and MW pumps?
Winmutt, so to do this was i correct in saying that you want to raise the barrel, or does the height stay the same, and you are changing/turning the barrel location in reference to the plungers groove?
Aren't you guys working with pump rebuilders quite a bit? Is it easiear to buy new larger elements, put them in than to do this mod with stock elements?
Maybe his pump is enough different that it is not so hard for him? I have never done any pump work, I am looking forward to it though. Just now I don't have a spare pump that I am willing to mess with.
I new I should have kept that spare 76 300d. It was worth more to me in partrs; or the scrapper than the measly $300 I sold it for. At the time it was more than I paid, and I had 2 others in stock. I keep looking for those under $300 300d's, but I have not found one in a long while now.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
You can turn them and move them up and down. Rotation changes the quantity while vertical changes timing. If you had time and could work a decent idle out, it's probably not to bad. The problem is the element size, to push *enough* fuel you have to increase the injection duration which artificially increases the exhaust temperature as fuel has to start injecting early and finish late. Tomnik I believe (if you can find him you can hire him *queue a team sound track) has some MW pumps that you could talk to him about. As he is not returning is pm's here it might be best to email him directly or via someone else in the know (I am not in the know). Alternatively you can turn to the M pump and its many tuners of fame.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
led-panzer
01-23-2013, 12:34 PM #8I have done this to my pump as well. I had good results, but you really are playing with fire. Don't do it without a spare pump ready to go. In fact it's best to not do it at all (just sayin)
1984 300D 4-speed ~200,000 miles
7.5mm M-pump, GT3582 turbo, F-Tune Performance intake/exhaust manifolds, A/A intercooler, 315 nozzles, Enlarged prechambers, Bosch 044 feed pump, Custom lightweight flywheel with 240mm clutch, Lowered, 17" AMG rims - 300 hp OM617 project
1985 300D 280,000 miles RIP
2001 F350 7.3 DP tuner, 4"exhaust, S&B intake
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
Process? Just loosen the two nuts and hard line and turn. Again not recommending you do it. Led is certainly wise, if you do it, have a spare and know how to replace it.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
The clocking still sounds like something I would still like to educate myself on a little more before I try to actually do the mod.
The fellow on the DB forum made it sound like it was more fo a internal mod on the Kubota/denso pump. I am really sort of crippled with out a pump in front of me.
how much turning is available; in degrees? In which direction?. pardon, but I am overseas working, and will not have access to my pump for another 3 or 4 weeks, until I get home. That is if I don't get side tracked with a antique land rover defender diesel project.
The clocking still sounds like something I would still like to educate myself on a little more before I try to actually do the mod.
The fellow on the DB forum made it sound like it was more fo a internal mod on the Kubota/denso pump. I am really sort of crippled with out a pump in front of me.
The mercedes pumps use 5 elements, so you need to match any element adjustments perfectly between the 5. This appears to be pretty much impossible at home....think balancing 5 carbs without a vac gauge
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
01-23-2013, 06:42 PM #12I *think* that the cummins/kubotas use one element so any adjustments are spread evenly to the injectors.
The mercedes pumps use 5 elements, so you need to match any element adjustments perfectly between the 5. This appears to be pretty much impossible at home....think balancing 5 carbs without a vac gauge
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Winmutt are you still running clocked or stock positions? or just larger elements?
thanks what did you title the thread. I searched all the different ways to say clocking injector barrels that I could think of; in this forum and DB forum as well. then I tried turning barrels, and that did not get me very far either.
Winmutt are you still running clocked or stock positions? or just larger elements?
i fitted bigger elements to my m pump and moved them forward on the rack for more fuel and balanced them as best as i could without putting the pump on a bench. You can see that no matter how close you think you are, you will be no where near it.
I then sent the pump to Dieselmeken who was kind enough to put it in the test bench to see how close i was, before he stripped it down.
This picture speaks for itself.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/atta...bnail=5154
hi,
i fitted bigger elements to my m pump and moved them forward on the rack for more fuel and balanced them as best as i could without putting the pump on a bench. You can see that no matter how close you think you are, you will be no where near it.
I then sent the pump to Dieselmeken who was kind enough to put it in the test bench to see how close i was, before he stripped it down.
This picture speaks for itself.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/atta...bnail=5154
on the 12v cummins the direction to increase fuel is to turn clockwise . I am guessing that it is the same on the benz.
one more question though. can this have any positive effect on a Non turbo motor?, or will it just cause overfueling? My guess is this would only benifit a turbo motor?
I won't be working with my turbo motor until I finish the jeep with the NA motor first. So I guess I will think about this at a later date.
Thanks to all so far for your input
well I found a bunch of write ups on clocking barrels. listed under the threads " turning barrels" on the diesel bombers forum. Do any of you guys look at that forum? As with here, the popular consenus is that you turn your barrels at your own risk, and most pros highly recommend having this done at a shop.
on the 12v cummins the direction to increase fuel is to turn clockwise . I am guessing that it is the same on the benz.
one more question though. can this have any positive effect on a Non turbo motor?, or will it just cause overfueling? My guess is this would only benifit a turbo motor?
I won't be working with my turbo motor until I finish the jeep with the NA motor first. So I guess I will think about this at a later date.
Thanks to all so far for your input
(01-24-2013, 01:49 PM)mantahead hi,
i fitted bigger elements to my m pump and moved them forward on the rack for more fuel and balanced them as best as i could without putting the pump on a bench. You can see that no matter how close you think you are, you will be no where near it.
I then sent the pump to Dieselmeken who was kind enough to put it in the test bench to see how close i was, before he stripped it down.
This picture speaks for itself.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/atta...bnail=5154
Manta, by any chance did you try the millivolt method for timing them? Basically using a multi meter on the glowplugs to read the energy.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(01-24-2013, 01:49 PM)mantahead hi,
i fitted bigger elements to my m pump and moved them forward on the rack for more fuel and balanced them as best as i could without putting the pump on a bench. You can see that no matter how close you think you are, you will be no where near it.
I then sent the pump to Dieselmeken who was kind enough to put it in the test bench to see how close i was, before he stripped it down.
This picture speaks for itself.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/atta...bnail=5154
Manta, by any chance did you try the millivolt method for timing them? Basically using a multi meter on the glowplugs to read the energy.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(01-24-2013, 03:32 PM)xjdiesel well I found a bunch of write ups on clocking barrels. listed under the threads " turning barrels" on the diesel bombers forum. Do any of you guys look at that forum? As with here, the popular consenus is that you turn your barrels at your own risk, and most pros highly recommend having this done at a shop.
on the 12v cummins the direction to increase fuel is to turn clockwise . I am guessing that it is the same on the benz.
one more question though. can this have any positive effect on a Non turbo motor?, or will it just cause overfueling? My guess is this would only benifit a turbo motor?
I won't be working with my turbo motor until I finish the jeep with the NA motor first. So I guess I will think about this at a later date.
Thanks to all so far for your input
Im on the board. A non turbo will not benefit at all from this mod, much safer is simply to turn up the torque control I believe. There are some NA threads here (search). You can also talk to om616.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(01-24-2013, 03:32 PM)xjdiesel well I found a bunch of write ups on clocking barrels. listed under the threads " turning barrels" on the diesel bombers forum. Do any of you guys look at that forum? As with here, the popular consenus is that you turn your barrels at your own risk, and most pros highly recommend having this done at a shop.
on the 12v cummins the direction to increase fuel is to turn clockwise . I am guessing that it is the same on the benz.
one more question though. can this have any positive effect on a Non turbo motor?, or will it just cause overfueling? My guess is this would only benifit a turbo motor?
I won't be working with my turbo motor until I finish the jeep with the NA motor first. So I guess I will think about this at a later date.
Thanks to all so far for your input
Im on the board. A non turbo will not benefit at all from this mod, much safer is simply to turn up the torque control I believe. There are some NA threads here (search). You can also talk to om616.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I am hoping the NA motor in the jeep will not need a whole lot, I am not expecting a lot. The plan was to do a conversion with the NA motor, and learn from that, and sell it. Then do the same conversion on a nicer jeep using the turbo motor. This project Is not going to be very expensive. The benz was $250, and after I pulled the engine and trans, I took the left overs to the crusher and got all my money back plus a little. The jeep cost $100. I paid $350 for the turbo car. So I have about $100 in the turbo motor. and now I have 2 benz auto trans that I am not going to use. Are they worth anything to anyone. Maybe I can trade them for a spare injection pump.
back to the barrel turning. Did anyone make a jig to fit on top of the pump to make sure the barrels all turn the same amount?
i was sort of thinking some where along the lines of mantahead. to pull the glow plugs, and temp splice onto the injector lines, and then use the starter motor to spin the engine with no compression and measure the fuel delivered at each injector. Would that work? or does the engine have to be at speed to get a good flow out of the pump? How much does it normally cost to have a pump balanced at a shop? or professionally clocked and balanced? versus new elements? I am not opposed to taking the pump to a shop.
I am hoping the NA motor in the jeep will not need a whole lot, I am not expecting a lot. The plan was to do a conversion with the NA motor, and learn from that, and sell it. Then do the same conversion on a nicer jeep using the turbo motor. This project Is not going to be very expensive. The benz was $250, and after I pulled the engine and trans, I took the left overs to the crusher and got all my money back plus a little. The jeep cost $100. I paid $350 for the turbo car. So I have about $100 in the turbo motor. and now I have 2 benz auto trans that I am not going to use. Are they worth anything to anyone. Maybe I can trade them for a spare injection pump.
back to the barrel turning. Did anyone make a jig to fit on top of the pump to make sure the barrels all turn the same amount?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
01-24-2013, 09:38 PM #24Hook up a stepper motor that counts revs and moves at a specific speed. Then have your injectors spraying into 5 containers, run it and measure.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
(01-24-2013, 06:24 PM)xjdiesel yes mantahead, i think the pump shop will be the way to go. But after you did the mod, and before you sent the pump out. how did it run? good, better , worse?hi,
it didn't run so bad, but i couldn't get the power, it run so much better and smoother after i got it back from Goran.
(01-24-2013, 06:24 PM)xjdiesel yes mantahead, i think the pump shop will be the way to go. But after you did the mod, and before you sent the pump out. how did it run? good, better , worse?hi,
it didn't run so bad, but i couldn't get the power, it run so much better and smoother after i got it back from Goran.
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