Compounding
Compounding
03-28-2013, 05:54 AM
#2
(03-28-2013, 03:43 AM)Eric78 I already bought a Holset hx35 but this probably isn't enough for the power I'd like, would this & an hx40 work together in a compound set up? If not which turbo would you recomend to go with the hx35 in a compound set up on an OM605?
hx35 and hx40 is to close to eachother...An hx35 and hx52 will be a good match!
EDH_Performance
03-28-2013, 05:54 AM #2(03-28-2013, 03:43 AM)Eric78 I already bought a Holset hx35 but this probably isn't enough for the power I'd like, would this & an hx40 work together in a compound set up? If not which turbo would you recomend to go with the hx35 in a compound set up on an OM605?
hx35 and hx40 is to close to eachother...An hx35 and hx52 will be a good match!
03-28-2013, 06:08 AM
#3
(03-28-2013, 05:54 AM)EDH_PerformanceThe 52 isn't too much for a 605?(03-28-2013, 03:43 AM)Eric78 I already bought a Holset hx35 but this probably isn't enough for the power I'd like, would this & an hx40 work together in a compound set up? If not which turbo would you recomend to go with the hx35 in a compound set up on an OM605?
hx35 and hx40 is to close to eachother...An hx35 and hx52 will be a good match!
I will certainly look for one then, I'd been seeing a bunch of hx40s for a few hundred $ each, but most other Holsets are up in the thousands.
This post was last modified: 03-28-2013, 07:05 AM by Eric78.
(03-28-2013, 05:54 AM)EDH_PerformanceThe 52 isn't too much for a 605?(03-28-2013, 03:43 AM)Eric78 I already bought a Holset hx35 but this probably isn't enough for the power I'd like, would this & an hx40 work together in a compound set up? If not which turbo would you recomend to go with the hx35 in a compound set up on an OM605?
hx35 and hx40 is to close to eachother...An hx35 and hx52 will be a good match!
I will certainly look for one then, I'd been seeing a bunch of hx40s for a few hundred $ each, but most other Holsets are up in the thousands.
03-28-2013, 06:56 AM
#4
This post was last modified: 03-28-2013, 06:57 AM by MFSuper90.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Or possibly get an hx30 with like a 12cm housing and do a small set of compounds. Super fast spool
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
03-28-2013, 10:45 AM
#5
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
03-28-2013, 10:45 AM #5I was thinking of using the stock turbo that comes with the om606 but compound it with a Holset hx35
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
03-28-2013, 11:18 AM
#6
(03-28-2013, 10:45 AM)willbhere4u I was thinking of using the stock turbo that comes with the om606 but compound it with a Holset hx35
Probably have to port the heck out of the wastegate to keep drive pressures in check, id imagine
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(03-28-2013, 10:45 AM)willbhere4u I was thinking of using the stock turbo that comes with the om606 but compound it with a Holset hx35
Probably have to port the heck out of the wastegate to keep drive pressures in check, id imagine
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
03-28-2013, 11:22 AM
#7
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
03-28-2013, 11:22 AM #7It would also have a waste gate on the Holset or secondary turbo
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
03-28-2013, 02:43 PM
#8
EDH_Performance
03-28-2013, 02:43 PM #8I am currently building a setup for my om606, compounding a hx40 with billetwheel and a big hx60 with custom ezhausthousing
03-28-2013, 10:13 PM
#9
(03-28-2013, 02:43 PM)EDH_Performance I am currently building a setup for my om606, compounding a hx40 with billetwheel and a big hx60 with custom ezhausthousing
I am sure you have some major fuel modifications?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(03-28-2013, 02:43 PM)EDH_Performance I am currently building a setup for my om606, compounding a hx40 with billetwheel and a big hx60 with custom ezhausthousing
I am sure you have some major fuel modifications?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
03-29-2013, 07:46 AM
#10
(03-28-2013, 10:13 PM)MFSuper90(03-28-2013, 02:43 PM)EDH_Performance I am currently building a setup for my om606, compounding a hx40 with billetwheel and a big hx60 with custom ezhausthousing
I am sure you have some major fuel modifications?
Yes, first test will be 210cc pump^^ Bigger pump after that
EDH_Performance
03-29-2013, 07:46 AM #10(03-28-2013, 10:13 PM)MFSuper90(03-28-2013, 02:43 PM)EDH_Performance I am currently building a setup for my om606, compounding a hx40 with billetwheel and a big hx60 with custom ezhausthousing
I am sure you have some major fuel modifications?
Yes, first test will be 210cc pump^^ Bigger pump after that
03-30-2013, 01:53 AM
#11
(03-28-2013, 05:54 AM)EDH_Performance [quote='Eric78' pid='50165' dateline='1364460182']Would an HX55 work too? There's a rebuilt one that isn't too expensive, also got my eye on some HX52s but they aren't genuine Holset, unsure of the quality.
...An hx35 and hx52 will be a good match!
03-30-2013, 05:08 AM
#12
An hx55 is good for over 800hp...how many hp do you aim for?
An hx55 is good for over 800hp...how many hp do you aim for?
This post was last modified: 03-30-2013, 05:09 AM by EDH_Performance.
EDH_Performance
03-30-2013, 05:08 AM #12An hx55 is good for over 800hp...how many hp do you aim for?
An hx55 is good for over 800hp...how many hp do you aim for?
An hx55 is good for over 800hp...how many hp do you aim for?
03-30-2013, 05:25 AM
#13
(03-30-2013, 05:08 AM)EDH_Performance An hx55 is good for over 800hp...how many hp do you aim for?
An hx55 is good for over 800hp...how many hp do you aim for?
An hx55 is good for over 800hp...how many hp do you aim for?
As much as stock internals can take, & maybe more later.
02-12-2014, 04:15 PM
#15
My plan is to use my factory manifold and turbo (om606), and machine a flat onto the factory manifold to allow me to mount a wastegate to bypass the factory turbo to allow the restrictive factory turbo and manifold to not restrict flow. The hx35 will then be the secondary being fed by the factory turbo exducer and the aditional wastegate. The hx35 will also be wastegated of course.
I realise I said the word factory far too many times in that paragraph..
This post was last modified: 02-12-2014, 04:17 PM by Hario'.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
I am compiling components to compound also. If you use a hx35 as the primary turbo will make for a very laggy and peaky power curved engine.
My plan is to use my factory manifold and turbo (om606), and machine a flat onto the factory manifold to allow me to mount a wastegate to bypass the factory turbo to allow the restrictive factory turbo and manifold to not restrict flow. The hx35 will then be the secondary being fed by the factory turbo exducer and the aditional wastegate. The hx35 will also be wastegated of course.
I realise I said the word factory far too many times in that paragraph..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
02-12-2014, 06:54 PM
#16
(02-12-2014, 04:15 PM)Hario I am compiling components to compound also. If you use a hx35 as the primary turbo will make for a very laggy and peaky power curved engine.
My plan is to use my factory manifold and turbo (om606), and machine a flat onto the factory manifold to allow me to mount a wastegate to bypass the factory turbo to allow the restrictive factory turbo and manifold to not restrict flow. The hx35 will then be the secondary being fed by the factory turbo exducer and the aditional wastegate. The hx35 will also be wastegated of course.
I realise I said the word factory far too many times in that paragraph..
I have the same turbo set up sitting on the floor. After looking at the maps and the size usually used in other turbo set ups it is about right as the stock turbo produces about 50% of the HX35. I think with the proper waste gate and housings it would be a very capable set up. I'm no expert though. Combine that with an A/W intercooler and you could have some fun. Really I figure you don't need that much extra. I mean how much boost would one really need? In my mind just enough to burn that extra bit of fuel efficiently without excessive drive pressure and EGT. Sounds fun and would love to see it done before I did it.
addicted56
02-12-2014, 06:54 PM #16(02-12-2014, 04:15 PM)Hario I am compiling components to compound also. If you use a hx35 as the primary turbo will make for a very laggy and peaky power curved engine.
My plan is to use my factory manifold and turbo (om606), and machine a flat onto the factory manifold to allow me to mount a wastegate to bypass the factory turbo to allow the restrictive factory turbo and manifold to not restrict flow. The hx35 will then be the secondary being fed by the factory turbo exducer and the aditional wastegate. The hx35 will also be wastegated of course.
I realise I said the word factory far too many times in that paragraph..
I have the same turbo set up sitting on the floor. After looking at the maps and the size usually used in other turbo set ups it is about right as the stock turbo produces about 50% of the HX35. I think with the proper waste gate and housings it would be a very capable set up. I'm no expert though. Combine that with an A/W intercooler and you could have some fun. Really I figure you don't need that much extra. I mean how much boost would one really need? In my mind just enough to burn that extra bit of fuel efficiently without excessive drive pressure and EGT. Sounds fun and would love to see it done before I did it.
02-13-2014, 02:58 AM
#17
![[Image: IMG_2265_zpsbc61d9ab.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/Petehri/Sekalaista/Kili/IMG_2265_zpsbc61d9ab.jpg)
She (the driver) asked for more gas pedal response as this engine had something like 550bhp so no need for additional top power anymore. Single turbo setup did wake up (=tires started to spin wild) after about 100-150m when using high speed on the transfer case. After compounding we got same kind of wheel spin after 2-3 metres. She said that now the engine sounds and feels angry.
This is she doing donuts for the fist time. After 40s she gets the hold of it. She is using under 80% gas pedal as there's no smoke. Actually I think she is using only half pedal movement for doing this. We haven't raised the boost up yet (around 3,5bar ATM) so it still smokes when slammed.
shadowmaker
02-13-2014, 02:58 AM #17Here's our first take on the subject.
She (the driver) asked for more gas pedal response as this engine had something like 550bhp so no need for additional top power anymore. Single turbo setup did wake up (=tires started to spin wild) after about 100-150m when using high speed on the transfer case. After compounding we got same kind of wheel spin after 2-3 metres. She said that now the engine sounds and feels angry.
This is she doing donuts for the fist time. After 40s she gets the hold of it. She is using under 80% gas pedal as there's no smoke. Actually I think she is using only half pedal movement for doing this. We haven't raised the boost up yet (around 3,5bar ATM) so it still smokes when slammed.
02-13-2014, 07:27 AM
#18
When thinking about this compounding there are some issues that comes to mind.Exhaust flow and exhaust gas velocity (if that's correct in English).
Normally you build a exhaust manifold the way that you can obtain the highest gas velocity possible (same length primary pipes is not always ideal if one is straight and one is bent 720-degrees). Now to the compound problem. Building a good manifold for a small turbo and then when boosting drive the big turbo via an external wastegate and the small turbos turbine flow... That's shit really!
And building a good exhaust manifold for the big turbo and propelling the small turbo via a wastegate actuator is also bad. Yes you can of course open the wastegate with the vacum pump and close it with boost. But the small turbo are to spool as fast as possible. And propelling that fast spooling turbo via a bad flowing wastegate solution is not really the way to go.
So how do you build a twin exhaust manifold that can get the most out of both turbos? The first problem is cutting of the manifold that is not in use... Solving that problem might be a couple of hours of sketching and some headache. Using the exhaust gas valves from a sports bike might be something, to big though and not 100% seal.
Now to the question. How is this done to be as efficient as possible? How does You guys make this work? And how is the setup made on stock cars like the BMW 123d?
I would love to understand this better.
F-tune Performance
![[Image: V-band_om606.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/V-band_om606.jpg)
![[Image: GTX3582R.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/GTX3582R.jpg)
![[Image: gs6-53dz_gearbox.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/gs6-53dz_gearbox.jpg)
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
I'm a total newbe on compound installations but I have some experience of building fast cars When thinking about this compounding there are some issues that comes to mind.
Exhaust flow and exhaust gas velocity (if that's correct in English).
Normally you build a exhaust manifold the way that you can obtain the highest gas velocity possible (same length primary pipes is not always ideal if one is straight and one is bent 720-degrees). Now to the compound problem. Building a good manifold for a small turbo and then when boosting drive the big turbo via an external wastegate and the small turbos turbine flow... That's shit really!
And building a good exhaust manifold for the big turbo and propelling the small turbo via a wastegate actuator is also bad. Yes you can of course open the wastegate with the vacum pump and close it with boost. But the small turbo are to spool as fast as possible. And propelling that fast spooling turbo via a bad flowing wastegate solution is not really the way to go.
So how do you build a twin exhaust manifold that can get the most out of both turbos? The first problem is cutting of the manifold that is not in use... Solving that problem might be a couple of hours of sketching and some headache. Using the exhaust gas valves from a sports bike might be something, to big though and not 100% seal.
Now to the question. How is this done to be as efficient as possible? How does You guys make this work? And how is the setup made on stock cars like the BMW 123d?
I would love to understand this better.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-13-2014, 12:25 PM
#19
![[Image: e211.jpg]](http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e213/john2gs/e211.jpg)
Apparently, folks are getting drive pressure down to 1:1 with boost.
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/...p?t=107957
Quote:Not a stupid question, and you're not overthinking things. First off, you're way ahead of most people who just say "set the secondary at twice the boost of the primary". However, as you know, boost ratios and PR are NOT the same.
I went through this about a year ago as well, with my 62/476 install. It's somewhat hard to find helpful, technically accurate information on tuning twins (at least from what I could find). Nonetheless, here's what I've found out on mine.
You're going about it right, in that you want each turbo to share half of the "work"...and this means running equal PRs. However, from what I've experienced, it's not possible for this to happen in reality. You can adjust the wastegate on the secondary so that PRs on the two turbos match at one condition, but they won't match at any of the other conditions.
Since the secondary begins to spool much faster, its boost climbs quickly to about 10 psi before the primary begins to make a pound or two. The secondary continues to build boost faster, up to the point that its wastegate cracks. When the wastegate opens on the secondary, the primary begins to pick up speed much quicker. This (obviously) is because the primary is now receiving a larger percentage of the exhaust flow, and it's "higher quality" exaust due to the higher temperature of the wastegated exhaust...it is also beginning to get into the mass flow rate of air where it was designed to operate.
Thus, when you reach this point, the primary now begins building boost much quicker than the secondary. As such, neither of the turbos spool linearly with respect to each other. The small one spools quicker at first, and tapers off as the wastegate cracks. The big one is slow at first, and gets a kick in the pants as the secondary's wastegate opens. Because of this non-linearity, I've not found a way to maintain a constant shared PR across the speed/load operating range of the engine.
The best I've been able to do, is to set the wastegate on the secondary such that you are at a 1:1 PR ratio with the two turbos at about 75 - 80% of full horsepower. This allows the small secondary to spool quickly and get you going. At full 100% hp, the primary will be doing more work than it should; however, for daily driving, this has worked better for me. It does make the primary have a higher PR than the secondary at WOT, but it allows the PRs to be more closely matched in the 40 - 75% throttle range where I normally tow/drive/need boost at.
For an all-out-best dyno number, it may be better to match PRs at 100% load, but I've found for a daily driver/work horse, a little lower does better. For what it's worth, with my ~650 hp worth of fueling, the 476 primary never sees much more than 25 psi on a WOT run. Thus, unless you are too heavily fueled for the set of twins you have, I don't think there is much tuning to be done with the wastegate setting on the primary...as long as you aren't letting it crack before 25 or 30 psi and "wasting" exhaust energy.
Again, the above info may or may not be accurate, and may not be the best way of doing things. It's just what I've found to be true with my limited knowledge and my setup.
--Eric
raysorenson
02-13-2014, 12:25 PM #19I think this pic sums up the hot side pretty well.
Apparently, folks are getting drive pressure down to 1:1 with boost.
http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/...p?t=107957
Quote:Not a stupid question, and you're not overthinking things. First off, you're way ahead of most people who just say "set the secondary at twice the boost of the primary". However, as you know, boost ratios and PR are NOT the same.
I went through this about a year ago as well, with my 62/476 install. It's somewhat hard to find helpful, technically accurate information on tuning twins (at least from what I could find). Nonetheless, here's what I've found out on mine.
You're going about it right, in that you want each turbo to share half of the "work"...and this means running equal PRs. However, from what I've experienced, it's not possible for this to happen in reality. You can adjust the wastegate on the secondary so that PRs on the two turbos match at one condition, but they won't match at any of the other conditions.
Since the secondary begins to spool much faster, its boost climbs quickly to about 10 psi before the primary begins to make a pound or two. The secondary continues to build boost faster, up to the point that its wastegate cracks. When the wastegate opens on the secondary, the primary begins to pick up speed much quicker. This (obviously) is because the primary is now receiving a larger percentage of the exhaust flow, and it's "higher quality" exaust due to the higher temperature of the wastegated exhaust...it is also beginning to get into the mass flow rate of air where it was designed to operate.
Thus, when you reach this point, the primary now begins building boost much quicker than the secondary. As such, neither of the turbos spool linearly with respect to each other. The small one spools quicker at first, and tapers off as the wastegate cracks. The big one is slow at first, and gets a kick in the pants as the secondary's wastegate opens. Because of this non-linearity, I've not found a way to maintain a constant shared PR across the speed/load operating range of the engine.
The best I've been able to do, is to set the wastegate on the secondary such that you are at a 1:1 PR ratio with the two turbos at about 75 - 80% of full horsepower. This allows the small secondary to spool quickly and get you going. At full 100% hp, the primary will be doing more work than it should; however, for daily driving, this has worked better for me. It does make the primary have a higher PR than the secondary at WOT, but it allows the PRs to be more closely matched in the 40 - 75% throttle range where I normally tow/drive/need boost at.
For an all-out-best dyno number, it may be better to match PRs at 100% load, but I've found for a daily driver/work horse, a little lower does better. For what it's worth, with my ~650 hp worth of fueling, the 476 primary never sees much more than 25 psi on a WOT run. Thus, unless you are too heavily fueled for the set of twins you have, I don't think there is much tuning to be done with the wastegate setting on the primary...as long as you aren't letting it crack before 25 or 30 psi and "wasting" exhaust energy.
Again, the above info may or may not be accurate, and may not be the best way of doing things. It's just what I've found to be true with my limited knowledge and my setup.
--Eric
02-13-2014, 01:03 PM
#22
How about building one of those F.R.A.S.? :-)
raysorenson
02-13-2014, 01:03 PM #22Not mine, just grabbed from google image search. Yes, crazy- and looks like great work.
How about building one of those F.R.A.S.? :-)
02-13-2014, 02:24 PM
#23
I have a light car, so I need a quick and easy setup as the weight of the car is to light to build boost when Wheels spinn
I am in a compounding prosjekt now on my om605, and is compounding Hx30w 6cm and He351w 12cm. This will hopefully give a fast and responsive setup With quick spool I have a light car, so I need a quick and easy setup as the weight of the car is to light to build boost when Wheels spinn
02-13-2014, 05:01 PM
#24
This setup is no problem building. But the question is if you can make this more efficient.
(02-13-2014, 01:03 PM)raysorenson Not mine, just grabbed from google image search. Yes, crazy- and looks like great work.
How about building one of those F.R.A.S.? :-)
(02-13-2014, 07:27 AM)F.R.A.S I'm a total newbe on compound installations but I have some experience of building fast cars
Exhaust flow and exhaust gas velocity (if that's correct in English).
Normally you build a exhaust manifold the way that you can obtain the highest gas velocity possible (same length primary pipes is not always ideal if one is straight and one is bent 720-degrees). Now to the compound problem. Building a good manifold for a small turbo and then when boosting drive the big turbo via an external wastegate and the small turbos turbine flow... That's shit really!
And building a good exhaust manifold for the big turbo and propelling the small turbo via a wastegate actuator is also bad. Yes you can of course open the wastegate with the vacum pump and close it with boost. But the small turbo are to spool as fast as possible. And propelling that fast spooling turbo via a bad flowing wastegate solution is not really the way to go.
So how do you build a twin exhaust manifold that can get the most out of both turbos? The first problem is cutting of the manifold that is not in use... Solving that problem might be a couple of hours of sketching and some headache. Using the exhaust gas valves from a sports bike might be something, to big though and not 100% seal.
Now to the question. How is this done to be as efficient as possible? How does You guys make this work? And how is the setup made on stock cars like the BMW 123d?
I would love to understand this better.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
I'll qoute my self down below with some red markings
This setup is no problem building. But the question is if you can make this more efficient.
(02-13-2014, 01:03 PM)raysorenson Not mine, just grabbed from google image search. Yes, crazy- and looks like great work.
How about building one of those F.R.A.S.? :-)
(02-13-2014, 07:27 AM)F.R.A.S I'm a total newbe on compound installations but I have some experience of building fast cars
Exhaust flow and exhaust gas velocity (if that's correct in English).
Normally you build a exhaust manifold the way that you can obtain the highest gas velocity possible (same length primary pipes is not always ideal if one is straight and one is bent 720-degrees). Now to the compound problem. Building a good manifold for a small turbo and then when boosting drive the big turbo via an external wastegate and the small turbos turbine flow... That's shit really!
And building a good exhaust manifold for the big turbo and propelling the small turbo via a wastegate actuator is also bad. Yes you can of course open the wastegate with the vacum pump and close it with boost. But the small turbo are to spool as fast as possible. And propelling that fast spooling turbo via a bad flowing wastegate solution is not really the way to go.
So how do you build a twin exhaust manifold that can get the most out of both turbos? The first problem is cutting of the manifold that is not in use... Solving that problem might be a couple of hours of sketching and some headache. Using the exhaust gas valves from a sports bike might be something, to big though and not 100% seal.
Now to the question. How is this done to be as efficient as possible? How does You guys make this work? And how is the setup made on stock cars like the BMW 123d?
I would love to understand this better.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-13-2014, 11:47 PM
#25
And no, I'm not the one, who thinks that frequency pulses don't matter in turbo engines.
shadowmaker
02-13-2014, 11:47 PM #25Efficiency improvement comes from two (or more) turbos acting together. If calculated correctly, they'll stay at their best efficiency islands and still have very wide operating range, which isn't possible with single turbo setup. This efficiency improvement surpasses manifold efficiency at least ten times.
And no, I'm not the one, who thinks that frequency pulses don't matter in turbo engines.
02-14-2014, 04:37 AM
#26
I have to say that I've thought a bit about this since yesterday and every step forward puts me at another dead end. This IS a hard nut to crack.
And as of now people is running fairly low power outputs on there cars. I understand the lag and such when going HX55 and similar. A modern billet dual ball bearing turbo is not that expensive when we look at the other costs around building a car. Up to 600hp that is a very good solution.
More than 600hp you can always go supercharger/turbo
And for +1000hp applications we will in this thread figure out how to make a real efficient compound manifold.
(02-13-2014, 11:47 PM)shadowmaker Efficiency improvement comes from two (or more) turbos acting together. If calculated correctly, they'll stay at their best efficiency islands and still have very wide operating range, which isn't possible with single turbo setup. This efficiency improvement surpasses manifold efficiency at least ten times.
And no, I'm not the one, who thinks that frequency pulses don't matter in turbo engines.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
I'm with you on this mate. But if one could build two real exhaust manifolds and somehow decrees or increase the amount of flow between them. That setup would be 10-times more efficient than the current wastegated solution. Or what do you guys think?
I have to say that I've thought a bit about this since yesterday and every step forward puts me at another dead end. This IS a hard nut to crack.
And as of now people is running fairly low power outputs on there cars. I understand the lag and such when going HX55 and similar. A modern billet dual ball bearing turbo is not that expensive when we look at the other costs around building a car. Up to 600hp that is a very good solution.
More than 600hp you can always go supercharger/turbo
And for +1000hp applications we will in this thread figure out how to make a real efficient compound manifold.
(02-13-2014, 11:47 PM)shadowmaker Efficiency improvement comes from two (or more) turbos acting together. If calculated correctly, they'll stay at their best efficiency islands and still have very wide operating range, which isn't possible with single turbo setup. This efficiency improvement surpasses manifold efficiency at least ten times.
And no, I'm not the one, who thinks that frequency pulses don't matter in turbo engines.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-14-2014, 11:12 AM
#27
Quote:folks are getting drive pressure down to 1:1 with boost
(02-13-2014, 05:01 PM)F.R.A.S This setup is no problem building. But the question is if you can make this more efficient.
If you can improve on 1:1 drive/boost ratio by improving the exhaust manifold design, that would be one hell of a thing.
raysorenson
02-14-2014, 11:12 AM #27I'll just quote myself in black
Quote:folks are getting drive pressure down to 1:1 with boost
(02-13-2014, 05:01 PM)F.R.A.S This setup is no problem building. But the question is if you can make this more efficient.
If you can improve on 1:1 drive/boost ratio by improving the exhaust manifold design, that would be one hell of a thing.
02-14-2014, 04:28 PM
#28
What does "getting drive pressure down to 1:1" means?What I'm talking about is that one turbo on a good manifold will spool at 4000rpm. That's to late, right... So you build a compound configuration... Will that big old turbo (the same turbo) still spool at 4000rpm? In my mind (but I have no clue on compounding, hence these questions and out loud thinking) you'll get quick spool of the small turbo and therefore don't mind the slower spool of the bigger turbo. For me this looks like spooling your hx55 (for example) with a modified stock manifold. Not that great really...
So therefore there must be a solution that can give you maximum efficiency out of both turbos in these kind of setups.
I don't care about back pressure and such right now. For one reason only. You can build real shitty manifolds and drive with real shitty turbo chargers and get super low back pressure. What's interesting is what kind of exhaust gas velocity you'll get and when the turbo spools. It can be 1000rpm between a shit manifold and a good one
Ideas?
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
My English ends about there What does "getting drive pressure down to 1:1" means?
What I'm talking about is that one turbo on a good manifold will spool at 4000rpm. That's to late, right... So you build a compound configuration... Will that big old turbo (the same turbo) still spool at 4000rpm? In my mind (but I have no clue on compounding, hence these questions and out loud thinking) you'll get quick spool of the small turbo and therefore don't mind the slower spool of the bigger turbo. For me this looks like spooling your hx55 (for example) with a modified stock manifold. Not that great really...
So therefore there must be a solution that can give you maximum efficiency out of both turbos in these kind of setups.
I don't care about back pressure and such right now. For one reason only. You can build real shitty manifolds and drive with real shitty turbo chargers and get super low back pressure. What's interesting is what kind of exhaust gas velocity you'll get and when the turbo spools. It can be 1000rpm between a shit manifold and a good one
Ideas?
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-15-2014, 01:18 AM
#29
shadowmaker
02-15-2014, 01:18 AM #29Nope. Actually the big one will spool almost immediately after the small one. Now where did it get that extra exhaust gas velocity to do this?
02-15-2014, 03:40 AM
#30
I guess drive pressure you mean in this case back pressure is about 10% bigger then boost
(02-15-2014, 01:18 AM)shadowmaker Nope. Actually the big one will spool almost immediately after the small one. Now where did it get that extra exhaust gas velocity to do this?
If the big one spools right after the small one, I can not see the point other then to make the big one spool, and make a two turbo work in stage if you need really high boost but at that case aftercooler/intercoller would be a good choice and the HP turbo can be sized even smaller for mainly faster response. I just thought that kind of application show it would be preferable with a HP turbo spooling even faster?
I guess drive pressure you mean in this case back pressure is about 10% bigger then boost
(02-15-2014, 01:18 AM)shadowmaker Nope. Actually the big one will spool almost immediately after the small one. Now where did it get that extra exhaust gas velocity to do this?
02-15-2014, 04:05 AM
#31
(02-15-2014, 03:40 AM)Turbo ...aftercooler/intercoller would be a good choice and the HP turbo can be sized even smaller for mainly faster response...
![[Image: IMG_2688_zpsf21b82f9.jpg]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v211/Petehri/Sekalaista/Kili/IMG_2688_zpsf21b82f9.jpg)
According to my calculations this intercooler is a bad thing to this current setup, but the team wanted to test it anyway. I've also learned that you can only calculate to a certain point and then you just have to let the real world bring you down...
Compounding is all about getting high boost, wide operating range and low EMP (=exhaust manifold pressure).
With single we needed 100-150m in certain gear to get to the power zone. Now HP lights up after 2-3m and LP around 20m. Smoke is mostly cleared so we must be doing more power than previously even that we are still using similar max boost.
This post was last modified: 02-15-2014, 04:36 AM by shadowmaker.
shadowmaker
02-15-2014, 04:05 AM #31(02-15-2014, 03:40 AM)Turbo ...aftercooler/intercoller would be a good choice and the HP turbo can be sized even smaller for mainly faster response...
According to my calculations this intercooler is a bad thing to this current setup, but the team wanted to test it anyway. I've also learned that you can only calculate to a certain point and then you just have to let the real world bring you down...
Compounding is all about getting high boost, wide operating range and low EMP (=exhaust manifold pressure).
With single we needed 100-150m in certain gear to get to the power zone. Now HP lights up after 2-3m and LP around 20m. Smoke is mostly cleared so we must be doing more power than previously even that we are still using similar max boost.
02-15-2014, 04:37 AM
#32
We're all friends here and I'm not saying anyone is wrong. But I don't understand. In theory this kind of compound setup would work very bad.
So you mean that if I have a big old turbo that start boosting at 4000rpm will spool faster when driven by the remaining gases out of the LP-turbo and the escaping gases out of a wastegate? Does not make sense...
But I'm thinking about this and I can't find any good solution. Low-tech, high-tech, cheap or expensive... I just can't find the solution.
The best way I can think of is using a supercharger and boost through the compressor of the HP-turbo of your choice. That will give you everything you need. Simple, low-tech and fairly cheap.
But this is about compounding and we have a tough one to crack. Bare in mind that Porsche used compound turbos in the 959 and that's 30years ago.
(02-15-2014, 01:18 AM)shadowmaker Nope. Actually the big one will spool almost immediately after the small one. Now where did it get that extra exhaust gas velocity to do this?
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Nope what?
We're all friends here and I'm not saying anyone is wrong. But I don't understand. In theory this kind of compound setup would work very bad.
So you mean that if I have a big old turbo that start boosting at 4000rpm will spool faster when driven by the remaining gases out of the LP-turbo and the escaping gases out of a wastegate? Does not make sense...
But I'm thinking about this and I can't find any good solution. Low-tech, high-tech, cheap or expensive... I just can't find the solution.
The best way I can think of is using a supercharger and boost through the compressor of the HP-turbo of your choice. That will give you everything you need. Simple, low-tech and fairly cheap.
But this is about compounding and we have a tough one to crack. Bare in mind that Porsche used compound turbos in the 959 and that's 30years ago.
(02-15-2014, 01:18 AM)shadowmaker Nope. Actually the big one will spool almost immediately after the small one. Now where did it get that extra exhaust gas velocity to do this?
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-15-2014, 05:52 AM
#33
(02-14-2014, 04:28 PM)F.R.A.S ...Will that big old turbo (the same turbo) still spool at 4000rpm?...
Nope to this.^
Quote:...So you mean that if I have a big old turbo that start boosting at 4000rpm will spool faster when driven by the remaining gases out of the LP-turbo and the escaping gases out of a wastegate? Does not make sense...
Why would you think the amount of exhaust gasses stays the same? When you figure out this, you'll understand a lot more of compounding.
First compound turbo setup was done back in 1908, so Porsche was just copying things, not inventing anything new. The main reason why compounding is quite rarely used, is because ~3bar is the lowest reasonable boost pressure available from such a system (how many modern road legal vehicle has this kind of boost pressures? Have to take account NOx formation too), it's expensive to build and needs space (vs. single or VNT) and it's mostly banned in most racing classes for it's superioty. Actually after next summer I hope there will be still another race class that bans compounding within it as I'm hoping our race project will demolish competition. This project has nothing to do with OM606.
I have PigFluensa, so I have to go to sleep now...
shadowmaker
02-15-2014, 05:52 AM #33(02-14-2014, 04:28 PM)F.R.A.S ...Will that big old turbo (the same turbo) still spool at 4000rpm?...
Nope to this.^
Quote:...So you mean that if I have a big old turbo that start boosting at 4000rpm will spool faster when driven by the remaining gases out of the LP-turbo and the escaping gases out of a wastegate? Does not make sense...
Why would you think the amount of exhaust gasses stays the same? When you figure out this, you'll understand a lot more of compounding.
First compound turbo setup was done back in 1908, so Porsche was just copying things, not inventing anything new. The main reason why compounding is quite rarely used, is because ~3bar is the lowest reasonable boost pressure available from such a system (how many modern road legal vehicle has this kind of boost pressures? Have to take account NOx formation too), it's expensive to build and needs space (vs. single or VNT) and it's mostly banned in most racing classes for it's superioty. Actually after next summer I hope there will be still another race class that bans compounding within it as I'm hoping our race project will demolish competition. This project has nothing to do with OM606.
I have PigFluensa, so I have to go to sleep now...
02-15-2014, 08:06 AM
#34
Shadowmaker look at BMW 550d if I am not mistaken it use 50psi of boost, quite nice engine but I guess you need to be pritty good engineer if something stop working in that system...
(02-15-2014, 04:37 AM)F.R.A.S Nope what?
We're all friends here and I'm not saying anyone is wrong. But I don't understand. In theory this kind of compound setup would work very bad.
So you mean that if I have a big old turbo that start boosting at 4000rpm will spool faster when driven by the remaining gases out of the LP-turbo and the escaping gases out of a wastegate? Does not make sense...
But I'm thinking about this and I can't find any good solution. Low-tech, high-tech, cheap or expensive... I just can't find the solution.
The best way I can think of is using a supercharger and boost through the compressor of the HP-turbo of your choice. That will give you everything you need. Simple, low-tech and fairly cheap.
But this is about compounding and we have a tough one to crack. Bare in mind that Porsche used compound turbos in the 959 and that's 30years ago.
(02-15-2014, 01:18 AM)shadowmaker Nope. Actually the big one will spool almost immediately after the small one. Now where did it get that extra exhaust gas velocity to do this?
calculation is very depending on how advanced modules and equation used and if transitions is considered and what boundary conditions you use, it is not exactly a hand calculator to make some good solutions, aftercooler is a tricky part and not that easy to calculate for good performance. Most people have no clue that to cool down some inter cooled heat it take a lot of air. At full boost my set up need to cool several 100s of kw... but I guess that you all ready know shadowmaker
good response for me are like BMW 535D almost instant full boost from 1000rpm, and specially when you let go of the gas and back a again it is quite obviously, but that is really hard to make work good even the R2S turbo on 535d has a hard time but they are not exactly high tech.
Nice build
(02-15-2014, 04:05 AM)shadowmaker(02-15-2014, 03:40 AM)Turbo ...aftercooler/intercoller would be a good choice and the HP turbo can be sized even smaller for mainly faster response...
According to my calculations this intercooler is a bad thing to this current setup, but the team wanted to test it anyway. I've also learned that you can only calculate to a certain point and then you just have to let the real world bring you down...
Compounding is all about getting high boost, wide operating range and low EMP (=exhaust manifold pressure).
With single we needed 100-150m in certain gear to get to the power zone. Now HP lights up after 2-3m and LP around 20m. Smoke is mostly cleared so we must be doing more power than previously even that we are still using similar max boost.
This post was last modified: 02-15-2014, 08:24 AM by Turbo.
959 turbo is sequential turbo system, parallel not in serie like we speak here, that system can take more advantage of the pulses if done right, series arrange turbo have a more seamless transition but LP stage there is no pulses left. If used right the pulses can make look like the turbos turbine has up like 100% efficiency if defined by static conditions
Shadowmaker look at BMW 550d if I am not mistaken it use 50psi of boost, quite nice engine but I guess you need to be pritty good engineer if something stop working in that system...
(02-15-2014, 04:37 AM)F.R.A.S Nope what?
We're all friends here and I'm not saying anyone is wrong. But I don't understand. In theory this kind of compound setup would work very bad.
So you mean that if I have a big old turbo that start boosting at 4000rpm will spool faster when driven by the remaining gases out of the LP-turbo and the escaping gases out of a wastegate? Does not make sense...
But I'm thinking about this and I can't find any good solution. Low-tech, high-tech, cheap or expensive... I just can't find the solution.
The best way I can think of is using a supercharger and boost through the compressor of the HP-turbo of your choice. That will give you everything you need. Simple, low-tech and fairly cheap.
But this is about compounding and we have a tough one to crack. Bare in mind that Porsche used compound turbos in the 959 and that's 30years ago.
(02-15-2014, 01:18 AM)shadowmaker Nope. Actually the big one will spool almost immediately after the small one. Now where did it get that extra exhaust gas velocity to do this?
calculation is very depending on how advanced modules and equation used and if transitions is considered and what boundary conditions you use, it is not exactly a hand calculator to make some good solutions, aftercooler is a tricky part and not that easy to calculate for good performance. Most people have no clue that to cool down some inter cooled heat it take a lot of air. At full boost my set up need to cool several 100s of kw... but I guess that you all ready know shadowmaker
good response for me are like BMW 535D almost instant full boost from 1000rpm, and specially when you let go of the gas and back a again it is quite obviously, but that is really hard to make work good even the R2S turbo on 535d has a hard time but they are not exactly high tech.
Nice build
(02-15-2014, 04:05 AM)shadowmaker(02-15-2014, 03:40 AM)Turbo ...aftercooler/intercoller would be a good choice and the HP turbo can be sized even smaller for mainly faster response...
According to my calculations this intercooler is a bad thing to this current setup, but the team wanted to test it anyway. I've also learned that you can only calculate to a certain point and then you just have to let the real world bring you down...
Compounding is all about getting high boost, wide operating range and low EMP (=exhaust manifold pressure).
With single we needed 100-150m in certain gear to get to the power zone. Now HP lights up after 2-3m and LP around 20m. Smoke is mostly cleared so we must be doing more power than previously even that we are still using similar max boost.
02-15-2014, 10:43 AM
#35
The homebrew compound turbo systems use a big divorced primary wastegate for the primary turbo. BMW uses an internal type flapper valve primary wastegate for the primary turbo. Very little difference; nobody has reinvented the wheel in either situation.
Shadowmaker, can you explain why 3 bar is the bottom limit for sequential? Why not just set the primary wastegate for 1 bar and the secondary for 2 bar?
Your build is *beautiful* but that intercooler (and it's placement) makes my head explode! How high does IAT get after a few donuts? EDIT, nevermind, that's one of 2 intercoolers, the final IC is huge.
This post was last modified: 02-15-2014, 11:40 AM by raysorenson.
raysorenson
02-15-2014, 10:43 AM #35Each turbine on the 959 exhausts straight into the muffler, so it's not what I consider a compound turbo.
The homebrew compound turbo systems use a big divorced primary wastegate for the primary turbo. BMW uses an internal type flapper valve primary wastegate for the primary turbo. Very little difference; nobody has reinvented the wheel in either situation.
Shadowmaker, can you explain why 3 bar is the bottom limit for sequential? Why not just set the primary wastegate for 1 bar and the secondary for 2 bar?
Your build is *beautiful* but that intercooler (and it's placement) makes my head explode! How high does IAT get after a few donuts? EDIT, nevermind, that's one of 2 intercoolers, the final IC is huge.
02-15-2014, 12:07 PM
#36
Ok, I have to test this out I hear. It sure sounds like the home brew compounding works better in reality than on my sheets of paper at home
But there are guys out there (like me) that have worked thousands of hours constructing the best exhaust manifold that I can build. A manifold that will give the fastest spool and lowest beck pressure... And for me ---- On the wrong side of the turbine and via a wastegate there are just a fraction of flow and exhaust gas velocity than on the "right" side...
Therefore I started this lines of 'out loud thoughts'. I will still search for a way of doing this compound thingy more efficient. And for me efficiency is when stuff perform at there maximum level.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
My bad guys, just had this obviously wrong memory about the 959. Was pretty sure that was a small turbo and a big turbo driven by each other. Hence the compound analogy.
Ok, I have to test this out I hear. It sure sounds like the home brew compounding works better in reality than on my sheets of paper at home
But there are guys out there (like me) that have worked thousands of hours constructing the best exhaust manifold that I can build. A manifold that will give the fastest spool and lowest beck pressure... And for me ---- On the wrong side of the turbine and via a wastegate there are just a fraction of flow and exhaust gas velocity than on the "right" side...
Therefore I started this lines of 'out loud thoughts'. I will still search for a way of doing this compound thingy more efficient. And for me efficiency is when stuff perform at there maximum level.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-15-2014, 02:25 PM
#37
![[Image: 959-turbo-dia.png]](http://www.boost-instruments.com/959/959-turbo-dia.png)
It looks like a mess to me compared to the typical setup but it may offer a prettier exhaust path to both turbines.
raysorenson
02-15-2014, 02:25 PM #37This is the 959 arrangement-
It looks like a mess to me compared to the typical setup but it may offer a prettier exhaust path to both turbines.
02-15-2014, 03:34 PM
#38
(02-13-2014, 07:27 AM)F.R.A.S I'm a total newbe on compound installations but I have some experience of building fast cars
Exhaust flow and exhaust gas velocity (if that's correct in English).
Normally you build a exhaust manifold the way that you can obtain the highest gas velocity possible (same length primary pipes is not always ideal if one is straight and one is bent 720-degrees). Now to the compound problem. Building a good manifold for a small turbo and then when boosting drive the big turbo via an external wastegate and the small turbos turbine flow... That's shit really!
And building a good exhaust manifold for the big turbo and propelling the small turbo via a wastegate actuator is also bad. Yes you can of course open the wastegate with the vacum pump and close it with boost. But the small turbo are to spool as fast as possible. And propelling that fast spooling turbo via a bad flowing wastegate solution is not really the way to go.
So how do you build a twin exhaust manifold that can get the most out of both turbos? The first problem is cutting of the manifold that is not in use... Solving that problem might be a couple of hours of sketching and some headache. Using the exhaust gas valves from a sports bike might be something, to big though and not 100% seal.
Now to the question. How is this done to be as efficient as possible? How does You guys make this work? And how is the setup made on stock cars like the BMW 123d?
I would love to understand this better.
Google tractor pulling for some inspiration that is where most of the pioneering ideas come from (discounting WW2 aircraft where it was invented of course).
Exhaust manifold turbulence is unavoidable, quality smooth pipe work is the best compromise..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
B
(02-13-2014, 07:27 AM)F.R.A.S I'm a total newbe on compound installations but I have some experience of building fast cars
Exhaust flow and exhaust gas velocity (if that's correct in English).
Normally you build a exhaust manifold the way that you can obtain the highest gas velocity possible (same length primary pipes is not always ideal if one is straight and one is bent 720-degrees). Now to the compound problem. Building a good manifold for a small turbo and then when boosting drive the big turbo via an external wastegate and the small turbos turbine flow... That's shit really!
And building a good exhaust manifold for the big turbo and propelling the small turbo via a wastegate actuator is also bad. Yes you can of course open the wastegate with the vacum pump and close it with boost. But the small turbo are to spool as fast as possible. And propelling that fast spooling turbo via a bad flowing wastegate solution is not really the way to go.
So how do you build a twin exhaust manifold that can get the most out of both turbos? The first problem is cutting of the manifold that is not in use... Solving that problem might be a couple of hours of sketching and some headache. Using the exhaust gas valves from a sports bike might be something, to big though and not 100% seal.
Now to the question. How is this done to be as efficient as possible? How does You guys make this work? And how is the setup made on stock cars like the BMW 123d?
I would love to understand this better.
Google tractor pulling for some inspiration that is where most of the pioneering ideas come from (discounting WW2 aircraft where it was invented of course).
Exhaust manifold turbulence is unavoidable, quality smooth pipe work is the best compromise..
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
02-16-2014, 04:59 AM
#39
(02-15-2014, 04:37 AM)F.R.A.S So you mean that if I have a big old turbo that start boosting at 4000rpm will spool faster when driven by the remaining gases out of the LP-turbo and the escaping gases out of a wastegate? Does not make sense...It will start to boost faster because when the small turbo start making boost(engine burns more fuel), the engine makes more exhaust to spool up the large turbo.
F.R.A.S I agree with you, the system where the exhaust runs trough a small turbo and a large wastegate and than into the large turbo is far from ideal, but I consider it a good compromise. I think the porsche 959 is a better solution but I am not sure if it has been build on an inline diesel engine? Has anyone seen or build such a system? I have been considering it for a while(both with 2 equal size turbos or 2 different size)
F.R.A.S do you have any photos of the exhaust manifolds you have build? would be very interesting to see since I agree with your thoughts
(02-15-2014, 04:37 AM)F.R.A.S So you mean that if I have a big old turbo that start boosting at 4000rpm will spool faster when driven by the remaining gases out of the LP-turbo and the escaping gases out of a wastegate? Does not make sense...It will start to boost faster because when the small turbo start making boost(engine burns more fuel), the engine makes more exhaust to spool up the large turbo.
F.R.A.S I agree with you, the system where the exhaust runs trough a small turbo and a large wastegate and than into the large turbo is far from ideal, but I consider it a good compromise. I think the porsche 959 is a better solution but I am not sure if it has been build on an inline diesel engine? Has anyone seen or build such a system? I have been considering it for a while(both with 2 equal size turbos or 2 different size)
F.R.A.S do you have any photos of the exhaust manifolds you have build? would be very interesting to see since I agree with your thoughts
02-16-2014, 08:51 AM
#40
This does not have to be just multiple turbochargers, infact I'm sure compounding originally used turbo and a supercharger.
The reason the big (LP) turbo spools shortly after the small (HP) turbo is because the HP turbo spooling (creating manifold pressure) causes the exhaust volume and pressure correspondingly, and it is this extra volume and pressure that drives the LP turbo.
I may be being anal here but a 1:1 drive pressure on a turbo compound system with 60psig manifold pressure of course means 60psi in the exhaust manifold, so I'm not sure is that will be 'good' in terms of egt's and exhaust component temperatures..?
Also with regards to reasoning, a typical compound turbo system can be put together for £$3-400 and my shoddy welding skills and I can have 50-60psi at the manifold which I consider to be a massive win in my books!
Throughts?
H
This post was last modified: 02-16-2014, 08:53 AM by Hario'.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Compounding means to compound the boost pressure (each compressor's pressure ratio is multiplied together).
This does not have to be just multiple turbochargers, infact I'm sure compounding originally used turbo and a supercharger.
The reason the big (LP) turbo spools shortly after the small (HP) turbo is because the HP turbo spooling (creating manifold pressure) causes the exhaust volume and pressure correspondingly, and it is this extra volume and pressure that drives the LP turbo.
I may be being anal here but a 1:1 drive pressure on a turbo compound system with 60psig manifold pressure of course means 60psi in the exhaust manifold, so I'm not sure is that will be 'good' in terms of egt's and exhaust component temperatures..?
Also with regards to reasoning, a typical compound turbo system can be put together for £$3-400 and my shoddy welding skills and I can have 50-60psi at the manifold which I consider to be a massive win in my books!
Throughts?
H
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
02-16-2014, 09:44 AM
#41
(02-16-2014, 08:51 AM)Hario I may be being anal here but a 1:1 drive pressure on a turbo compound system with 60psig manifold pressure of course means 60psi in the exhaust manifold, so I'm not sure is that will be 'good' in terms of egt's and exhaust component temperatures..?
Also with regards to reasoning, a typical compound turbo system can be put together for £$3-400 and my shoddy welding skills and I can have 50-60psi at the manifold which I consider to be a massive win in my books!
The truck guys seem to like compound for towing, so they're able to keep egt's in check.
Let's say you get 50 psi at an impossible 100% compressor efficiency. There will still be a massive amount of heat for the intercooler to deal with. Additionally, the mass of air entering the engine will be enough to require a very good flowing IC. This is why I have reservations for packaging it in a compact or midsize car. I've been turning over this idea for a 617 equipped FJ40 that has plenty of room for everything, including my limited fabrication skills
raysorenson
02-16-2014, 09:44 AM #41(02-16-2014, 08:51 AM)Hario I may be being anal here but a 1:1 drive pressure on a turbo compound system with 60psig manifold pressure of course means 60psi in the exhaust manifold, so I'm not sure is that will be 'good' in terms of egt's and exhaust component temperatures..?
Also with regards to reasoning, a typical compound turbo system can be put together for £$3-400 and my shoddy welding skills and I can have 50-60psi at the manifold which I consider to be a massive win in my books!
The truck guys seem to like compound for towing, so they're able to keep egt's in check.
Let's say you get 50 psi at an impossible 100% compressor efficiency. There will still be a massive amount of heat for the intercooler to deal with. Additionally, the mass of air entering the engine will be enough to require a very good flowing IC. This is why I have reservations for packaging it in a compact or midsize car. I've been turning over this idea for a 617 equipped FJ40 that has plenty of room for everything, including my limited fabrication skills
02-16-2014, 10:37 AM
#42
fortunately with the w210 and w202, removing the factory air box leaves much room for a water/air heat exchanger for inter-stage cooling, and sacrificing a/c gives about 18" x 20" x 3" core size for a front mount air/air. I think that is a fairly accurate space availability across the board for Mercedes saloons to be honest?
And FJ40 would also work out well.. Lol.
H
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
Yes absolutely.
fortunately with the w210 and w202, removing the factory air box leaves much room for a water/air heat exchanger for inter-stage cooling, and sacrificing a/c gives about 18" x 20" x 3" core size for a front mount air/air. I think that is a fairly accurate space availability across the board for Mercedes saloons to be honest?
And FJ40 would also work out well.. Lol.
H
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
02-16-2014, 11:08 AM
#43
the space i will have should make life a little easier
Hario, once you have removed the AC radiator, you could take off the viscous fan and use the 2 spal fans on the water rad and move it back should you need some extra girth
This post was last modified: 02-16-2014, 11:09 AM by bigbortha.
im hoping that cutting the end tanks from these large intercoolers and making one rather large unit should help with reducing at least some of the heat
the space i will have should make life a little easier
Hario, once you have removed the AC radiator, you could take off the viscous fan and use the 2 spal fans on the water rad and move it back should you need some extra girth
02-16-2014, 02:00 PM
#44
(02-16-2014, 04:59 AM)erling66 F.R.A.S do you have any photos of the exhaust manifolds you have build? would be very interesting to see since I agree with your thoughts
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
There are some around the forum
(02-16-2014, 04:59 AM)erling66 F.R.A.S do you have any photos of the exhaust manifolds you have build? would be very interesting to see since I agree with your thoughts
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-16-2014, 03:00 PM
#46
This was for a quite fast Audi A3 3.2 DSG quattro. So no diesel I'm afraid
(02-16-2014, 02:13 PM)Turbo what about twin entry?
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
We build twin entry also.
This was for a quite fast Audi A3 3.2 DSG quattro. So no diesel I'm afraid
(02-16-2014, 02:13 PM)Turbo what about twin entry?
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-16-2014, 03:57 PM
#47
in all possible views(02-16-2014, 03:00 PM)F.R.A.S We build twin entry also.
This was for a quite fast Audi A3 3.2 DSG quattro. So no diesel I'm afraid
(02-16-2014, 02:13 PM)Turbo what about twin entry?
so what are you waiting for we want to see some nice pictures on a twin entry system for a 6 cylinder cars, preferable for a om606.962 in all possible views
(02-16-2014, 03:00 PM)F.R.A.S We build twin entry also.
This was for a quite fast Audi A3 3.2 DSG quattro. So no diesel I'm afraid
(02-16-2014, 02:13 PM)Turbo what about twin entry?
02-16-2014, 05:03 PM
#49
Don't have much photos on the computer, but I'll see if I can find something.
You'll get a wheelie instead
(02-16-2014, 03:57 PM)Turbo so what are you waiting for we want to see some nice pictures on a twin entry system for a 6 cylinder cars, preferable for a om606.962
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Ha, ha, I'll post pictures from your manifold as soon as we start building it
Don't have much photos on the computer, but I'll see if I can find something.
You'll get a wheelie instead
(02-16-2014, 03:57 PM)Turbo so what are you waiting for we want to see some nice pictures on a twin entry system for a 6 cylinder cars, preferable for a om606.962
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-16-2014, 05:37 PM
#50
köper en bil i helgen vad det gäller OM606.692 så är det en del annat att få ordning på innan det kommer på tal om som lämpligt simulerings program för isnug och avgas sidan(02-16-2014, 05:03 PM)F.R.A.S Ha, ha, I'll post pictures from your manifold as soon as we start building it
Don't have much photos on the computer, but I'll see if I can find something.
You'll get a wheelie instead
(02-16-2014, 03:57 PM)Turbo so what are you waiting for we want to see some nice pictures on a twin entry system for a 6 cylinder cars, preferable for a om606.962
Du får väl se till att svara på de senaste frågorna jag skrev till dig så vi kan komma igång med om647 motorn köper en bil i helgen vad det gäller OM606.692 så är det en del annat att få ordning på innan det kommer på tal om som lämpligt simulerings program för isnug och avgas sidan
(02-16-2014, 05:03 PM)F.R.A.S Ha, ha, I'll post pictures from your manifold as soon as we start building it
Don't have much photos on the computer, but I'll see if I can find something.
You'll get a wheelie instead
(02-16-2014, 03:57 PM)Turbo so what are you waiting for we want to see some nice pictures on a twin entry system for a 6 cylinder cars, preferable for a om606.962
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