Another OM603 5 speed swap
Another OM603 5 speed swap
In order to mate up 1992 5spd to the 300d body and diff I bought a 260e auto rear driveshaft half at the JY. The 260e DS has the correct length for the W124 body and correct 25mm spline at the center support to mate up with the 190e manual front DS half.
300d 35mm rear DS left, 260e 25mm right.
![[Image: 9hXO1dth.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/9hXO1dth.jpg)
In order to mate up the 260e rear driveshaft half to the 300d 2.64 diff, I swapped in the smaller imput flange from the 190e 2.6. I marked the position of the large 30mm nut prior to removing it so I wouldn't have to worry about setting the correct torque.
![[Image: u8pAFoMh.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/u8pAFoMh.jpg)
260e rear ds and guibo left vs 300d guibo right.
![[Image: 0nnGMAvh.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/0nnGMAvh.jpg)
Here's a comparison shot next to my friend's E46 DS (left). He was doing shifter bushings. The e46 only has a guibo joint at the transmission end. Diff End uses a U joint.
![[Image: S5Li4fkh.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/S5Li4fkh.jpg)
300d slushbox + DS and 190e 5spd and 190e front DS. The distance between the flywheel and center support is standardized between the W124 and W201
![[Image: xvp1r1Ch.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/xvp1r1Ch.jpg)
I used the dual mass flywheel from from the 190e plus a new 9" clutch. In hind sight the dual mass flywheel can also fit a 9.5" clutch disk but the 9" seems to be holding up just fine without any slippage.
![[Image: fMFlE.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/fMFlE.jpg)
The pedals from the 190e were direct drop in. I cut the nipple on the 300d brake reservoir to feed brake fluid to the clutch.
![[Image: cKOfOmuh.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/cKOfOmuh.jpg)
![[Image: b2C5LdBh.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/b2C5LdBh.jpg)
Highway driving in 5th gear is a much quieter experience. I had to trim about 1/8" from the shifter hole to make the manual shifter boot fit.
![[Image: MHdETCah.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/MHdETCah.jpg)
The 2.64 diff is a perfect match for the 5 speed. It has no problem accelerating from a dead stop in 1st and 5th is useful above 60mph on flat ground. I downshift to 4th for big hills like climbing the Tejon pass at 70mph yesterday.
![[Image: KblA261h.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/KblA261h.jpg)
Notes:
The 190e shifter rods had to be extended by about 1.5" in order to fit the 300d body. This was probably the most time consuming and frustrating part of the whole swap because I had to adjust each one until the shifter worked smoothly in every gear.
I used the 300d automatic transmission cross member installed backwards and made a 3" extension for the transmission mount out of 1/2" thick aluminum plate. This part was relatively straight forward. I'll try to get a picture of this next time I'm under the car.
When I removed the trans mount and tilted the engine/trans back to unbolt the trans from the engine, the 26 year old AC hose burst. New one was a bitch to install and required the removal of the radiator and lots of pipe bending cussing and general frustration. On the plus side, my AC is colder than ever.
The swap took about a week worth of work with basic hand tools in a 2 car garage. This included the AC hose fiasco, new engine mounts, subframe bushings, one rebuilt injector and a few other smaller projects.
With the electronic idle switch at its slowest setting there is a resonant vibration throughout car which I think is caused by the dual mass flywheel. I changed the switch to 7 the fastest idle setting and the vibration went away completely. I haven't had a chance to try any other setting.
I only put 500 miles on the swap so far and haven't done a tank of 5 speed only driving. Prior to the swap the 300d automatic average 29.8mpg over 16 fill ups tracked through fuelly.
After the swap I was able to eliminate the vast majority of vac hoses under the hood. I also removed the ALDA a while ago and the car doesn't seem to smoke unless I floor it. Fuel economy actually improve slightly without ALDA.
I used the stronger rear 260e flex joint both front and rear.
The idea for this swap started last summer when my 1992 190e 2.6 5spd was on its last legs and I bought the 87 300d to replace it. I bought the 190e 3 years earlier for $1000 but at 200k miles it had low compression on 3 cyls, many oil leaks and a salvage title with little chance of passing smog. I parted most of it out and kept the 5 speed and related parts along with the 4 pot brakes, many new suspension parts and some of the interior all of which went into the 300d.
In order to mate up 1992 5spd to the 300d body and diff I bought a 260e auto rear driveshaft half at the JY. The 260e DS has the correct length for the W124 body and correct 25mm spline at the center support to mate up with the 190e manual front DS half.
300d 35mm rear DS left, 260e 25mm right.
In order to mate up the 260e rear driveshaft half to the 300d 2.64 diff, I swapped in the smaller imput flange from the 190e 2.6. I marked the position of the large 30mm nut prior to removing it so I wouldn't have to worry about setting the correct torque.
260e rear ds and guibo left vs 300d guibo right.
Here's a comparison shot next to my friend's E46 DS (left). He was doing shifter bushings. The e46 only has a guibo joint at the transmission end. Diff End uses a U joint.
300d slushbox + DS and 190e 5spd and 190e front DS. The distance between the flywheel and center support is standardized between the W124 and W201
I used the dual mass flywheel from from the 190e plus a new 9" clutch. In hind sight the dual mass flywheel can also fit a 9.5" clutch disk but the 9" seems to be holding up just fine without any slippage.
The pedals from the 190e were direct drop in. I cut the nipple on the 300d brake reservoir to feed brake fluid to the clutch.
Highway driving in 5th gear is a much quieter experience. I had to trim about 1/8" from the shifter hole to make the manual shifter boot fit.
The 2.64 diff is a perfect match for the 5 speed. It has no problem accelerating from a dead stop in 1st and 5th is useful above 60mph on flat ground. I downshift to 4th for big hills like climbing the Tejon pass at 70mph yesterday.
Notes:
The 190e shifter rods had to be extended by about 1.5" in order to fit the 300d body. This was probably the most time consuming and frustrating part of the whole swap because I had to adjust each one until the shifter worked smoothly in every gear.
I used the 300d automatic transmission cross member installed backwards and made a 3" extension for the transmission mount out of 1/2" thick aluminum plate. This part was relatively straight forward. I'll try to get a picture of this next time I'm under the car.
When I removed the trans mount and tilted the engine/trans back to unbolt the trans from the engine, the 26 year old AC hose burst. New one was a bitch to install and required the removal of the radiator and lots of pipe bending cussing and general frustration. On the plus side, my AC is colder than ever.
The swap took about a week worth of work with basic hand tools in a 2 car garage. This included the AC hose fiasco, new engine mounts, subframe bushings, one rebuilt injector and a few other smaller projects.
With the electronic idle switch at its slowest setting there is a resonant vibration throughout car which I think is caused by the dual mass flywheel. I changed the switch to 7 the fastest idle setting and the vibration went away completely. I haven't had a chance to try any other setting.
I only put 500 miles on the swap so far and haven't done a tank of 5 speed only driving. Prior to the swap the 300d automatic average 29.8mpg over 16 fill ups tracked through fuelly.
After the swap I was able to eliminate the vast majority of vac hoses under the hood. I also removed the ALDA a while ago and the car doesn't seem to smoke unless I floor it. Fuel economy actually improve slightly without ALDA.
I used the stronger rear 260e flex joint both front and rear.
Duncansport
05-19-2013, 01:58 PM #2Nice work. I just picked up a 5 speed and all of its related parts from a 300e ( over drive 717 ) the drive shaft is the only issue for me, probably extend mine as the seller gave me a 16v shaft. I'm sure that wont work
The 124 manual trans x-member is 30 bucks and change from the stealer.
raysorenson
05-19-2013, 09:33 PM #3I have a single mass FW on my similar conversion. In 4th and 5th gears, there's a lot of NVH accelerating below 1500 rpm. How does your drivetrain behave below 1500rpm?
The 124 manual trans x-member is 30 bucks and change from the stealer.
I've read about the cheap dealer manual cross member but I didn't see any threaded holes in the floor pan where the manual cross member would go. I would need to drill new ones and add the captive nuts which would be a lot of work. There were 4 holes with captive nuts hidden under rubber plugs but they're too far forward to be of any use. They're near the center of the transmission. A cross member there would cover over the drain plug.
I'm going to have to go to the dealer eventually for the clutch pipe I think. I bent the 190e pipe to fit but its not pretty.
I haven't noticed any vibration when accelerating below 1500rpm. The only vibration issue I had was with the ELR switch set to 1 at idle. I switched it to 7 and the vibration went away completely. I was a little bit concerned that mating up the 190e front DS with the 260e rear DS would cause a vibration at high speed but again no problem at all up to triple digits. I just lined up the marks on the 2 drive shaft halves and thats it.
I've read about the cheap dealer manual cross member but I didn't see any threaded holes in the floor pan where the manual cross member would go. I would need to drill new ones and add the captive nuts which would be a lot of work. There were 4 holes with captive nuts hidden under rubber plugs but they're too far forward to be of any use. They're near the center of the transmission. A cross member there would cover over the drain plug.
I'm going to have to go to the dealer eventually for the clutch pipe I think. I bent the 190e pipe to fit but its not pretty.
Two things:
1) what is your driving style? I have never gotten better than 23 mpg mixed driving, but I keep my foot in it all the time and have only approached 28 or so during long distance driving between 65-70mph.
2) did you keep track of the overall length of your front driveshaft half you used?
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
05-20-2013, 10:36 AM #5Awesome write up thus far.
Two things:
1) what is your driving style? I have never gotten better than 23 mpg mixed driving, but I keep my foot in it all the time and have only approached 28 or so during long distance driving between 65-70mph.
2) did you keep track of the overall length of your front driveshaft half you used?
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
raysorenson
05-20-2013, 11:11 AM #6SurfRodder, do you have an OM603 car? I'm a leadfoot in a hilly area and I got around 23 in my '87 124. After the 5 speed swap without overdrive I can easily hit 29 and I can't seem to flog it enough to get below 24mpg.
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/tjts1/300d
I'm going to keep a separate fuelly log for the 5spd.
2) The 190e 2.6 5 speed front driveshaft I used is 33.75" long. I had the 2 cars up in the air side by side and measured all the drivetrain components to figure out how this would all work out. Heres my chicken scratches if you can make sense of them.
http://i.imgur.com/MHdETCa.jpg
300d automatic transmission (24") + 300d automatic front DS (28.5") = 52.5"
190e manual transmission (19.375") + 190e manual front DS (33.75") = 53.125"
They are close enough to each other that they are interchangeable. The last piece of the puzzle was figuring out that the 260e rear DS would have the right length and diameter at both ends to make this all work. A 3.0 M103 rear DS will NOT work with a 190e front DS because it has a 35mm spline at the center support.
1) I do about 75% highway between 70-75mph and the car is optimized for fuel economy. That means low rolling resistance tires installed by the previous owner, engine undertray, no clutch fan, no passenger side mirror (mostly because I don't like the way it looks), rebuilt injectors, advanced IP timing, no EGR and no crankcase vent into the intake.
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/tjts1/300d
I'm going to keep a separate fuelly log for the 5spd.
2) The 190e 2.6 5 speed front driveshaft I used is 33.75" long. I had the 2 cars up in the air side by side and measured all the drivetrain components to figure out how this would all work out. Heres my chicken scratches if you can make sense of them.
http://i.imgur.com/MHdETCa.jpg
300d automatic transmission (24") + 300d automatic front DS (28.5") = 52.5"
190e manual transmission (19.375") + 190e manual front DS (33.75") = 53.125"
They are close enough to each other that they are interchangeable. The last piece of the puzzle was figuring out that the 260e rear DS would have the right length and diameter at both ends to make this all work. A 3.0 M103 rear DS will NOT work with a 190e front DS because it has a 35mm spline at the center support.
(05-20-2013, 11:16 AM)tjts1 1) I do about 75% highway between 70-75mph and the car is optimized for fuel economy. That means low rolling resistance tires installed by the previous owner, engine undertray, no clutch fan, no passenger side mirror (mostly because I don't like the way it looks), rebuilt injectors, advanced IP timing, no EGR and no crankcase vent into the intake.
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/tjts1/300d
I'm going to keep a separate fuelly log for the 5spd.
2) The 190e 2.6 5 speed front driveshaft I used is 33.75" long. I had the 2 cars up in the air side by side and measured all the drivetrain components to figure out how this would all work out. Heres my chicken scratches if you can make sense of them.
http://i.imgur.com/MHdETCa.jpg
300d automatic transmission (24") + 300d automatic front DS (28.5") = 52.5"
190e manual transmission (19.375") + 190e manual front DS (33.75") = 53.125"
Thats really awesome since I picked up a front half (and matching trans output) from a '86 560SEL yesterday (along with a 717.410...already have two 717.411's that will be for sale shortly, one as part of a swap kit). I am hoping the trans output splines are the same (should be since the same socket used to remove it..likely verify that tonight). Anyway, this front shaft has a length from the forward mating face of the tri-lobe to the end of the female splined section of 33.5". The flex disc (guibo) of the w126 & the '87 300D are the same as well as the center support bearing, so the SEL one should also have the 35mm splined section (appears to be the case by calibrated eyeball, def. larger than the 190 shaft, but I havent measured it yet, again likely will tonight).
How many degrees advanced is your timing? Which fan do you have installed? What head unit is that? Android friendly?
(05-20-2013, 11:11 AM)raysorenson SurfRodder, do you have an OM603 car? I'm a leadfoot in a hilly area and I got around 23 in my '87 124. After the 5 speed swap without overdrive I can easily hit 29 and I can't seem to flog it enough to get below 24mpg.
Yes, my "new" car is an '87, 603. I have pretty much all the parts to do a "proper" 5 speed swap, except PP and clutch/TO bearing. I am considering using PP/clutch from clutchnet... likely their "stage 1" PP and kevlar clutch...
I live in the hilly part of eastern San Diego, but really only have hills in the last couple miles of my daily commute, still haul ass everywhere tho...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
05-20-2013, 12:54 PM #8(05-20-2013, 11:16 AM)tjts1 1) I do about 75% highway between 70-75mph and the car is optimized for fuel economy. That means low rolling resistance tires installed by the previous owner, engine undertray, no clutch fan, no passenger side mirror (mostly because I don't like the way it looks), rebuilt injectors, advanced IP timing, no EGR and no crankcase vent into the intake.
http://www.fuelly.com/driver/tjts1/300d
I'm going to keep a separate fuelly log for the 5spd.
2) The 190e 2.6 5 speed front driveshaft I used is 33.75" long. I had the 2 cars up in the air side by side and measured all the drivetrain components to figure out how this would all work out. Heres my chicken scratches if you can make sense of them.
http://i.imgur.com/MHdETCa.jpg
300d automatic transmission (24") + 300d automatic front DS (28.5") = 52.5"
190e manual transmission (19.375") + 190e manual front DS (33.75") = 53.125"
Thats really awesome since I picked up a front half (and matching trans output) from a '86 560SEL yesterday (along with a 717.410...already have two 717.411's that will be for sale shortly, one as part of a swap kit). I am hoping the trans output splines are the same (should be since the same socket used to remove it..likely verify that tonight). Anyway, this front shaft has a length from the forward mating face of the tri-lobe to the end of the female splined section of 33.5". The flex disc (guibo) of the w126 & the '87 300D are the same as well as the center support bearing, so the SEL one should also have the 35mm splined section (appears to be the case by calibrated eyeball, def. larger than the 190 shaft, but I havent measured it yet, again likely will tonight).
How many degrees advanced is your timing? Which fan do you have installed? What head unit is that? Android friendly?
(05-20-2013, 11:11 AM)raysorenson SurfRodder, do you have an OM603 car? I'm a leadfoot in a hilly area and I got around 23 in my '87 124. After the 5 speed swap without overdrive I can easily hit 29 and I can't seem to flog it enough to get below 24mpg.
Yes, my "new" car is an '87, 603. I have pretty much all the parts to do a "proper" 5 speed swap, except PP and clutch/TO bearing. I am considering using PP/clutch from clutchnet... likely their "stage 1" PP and kevlar clutch...
I live in the hilly part of eastern San Diego, but really only have hills in the last couple miles of my daily commute, still haul ass everywhere tho...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
raysorenson
05-20-2013, 09:10 PM #9Threadjack, sorry: can't rave enough about the Kenwood KIV 701 and KIV BT901 single din HU's. Appearance, function and features are wonderful. Even got an Android firmware app. Android architecture does not allow web browser control through the USB port so don't expect to control Pandora through the USB port on any Android with any HU. I've seen video evidence of Pandora control through bluetooth but I'll believe it when it works on my car.
The head unit is a cheap POS from Amazon. Boss 612ua
EDIT: Heres the only closeup pic I have of the gearbox with the small flex joint. My phone shadow is right over the spot I was trying to point out. I don't think the larger guibo will clear that part of the transmission case. I hope I'm wrong. Good luck.
http://i.imgur.com/9xPdhTX.jpg
Does the 560 front DS use the large flex joint at the transmission end? The reason I ask is because my 190 manual gearbox didn't have room for the larger flex disk even with the correct output shaft. The back end of the transmission sticks out for the trans mount and it would interfere with the larger flex disk. I'm pretty sure all the 190e and 300e manual gearboxes were designed for the smaller flex joint.
The head unit is a cheap POS from Amazon. Boss 612ua
EDIT: Heres the only closeup pic I have of the gearbox with the small flex joint. My phone shadow is right over the spot I was trying to point out. I don't think the larger guibo will clear that part of the transmission case. I hope I'm wrong. Good luck.
http://i.imgur.com/9xPdhTX.jpg
(05-20-2013, 10:59 PM)tjts1 Does the 560 front DS use the large flex joint at the transmission end? The reason I ask is because my 190 manual gearbox didn't have room for the larger flex disk even with the correct output shaft. The back end of the transmission sticks out for the trans mount and it would interfere with the larger flex disk. I'm pretty sure all the 190e and 300e manual gearboxes were designed for the smaller flex joint.
^^ Just verified this...slight bummer, but im not convinced to go with the smaller disc just yet... Im going to try and clearance it a bit to see if I can make it work... here's some pics for posterity...
here's a comparison holding the smaller (190D) trilobe flange up to the installed 560SEL one:
Here's where the output flange hits (the pictured lobe hits in the CCW direction in the unshaded Sharpie mark and the next lobe in the CCW direction hits the shaded area in the foreground when I try to spin the flange CW.
Here's a shot of the aft end showing the aforementioned clearance issues as well as the two question marks (??) where I wasnt sure about the bolt heads clearing:
Here's a closer view of the bolt clearance, it'll be close and likely will need some more clearancing:
At any rate, there will be 2-3mm of clearance necessary in one of those spots and about 1mm in the other... the bolt clearancing looks like about 1mm or so, but over a larger radius... hopefully 'JB3 dropnosky' can take a look at these pics and lemme know if I'm likely to get into the internals at all...
Also a bit of good news...
Here's the 560SEL (late w126) shaft installed on the 190D 711.410 trans:
Here's a pic of the total length (just shy of 53", looks to be between 52&7/8" and 52&15/16"):
should be a nice fit compared to stock 722.4 auto trans / OM603 combo...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
05-20-2013, 11:50 PM #11(05-20-2013, 10:59 PM)tjts1 Does the 560 front DS use the large flex joint at the transmission end? The reason I ask is because my 190 manual gearbox didn't have room for the larger flex disk even with the correct output shaft. The back end of the transmission sticks out for the trans mount and it would interfere with the larger flex disk. I'm pretty sure all the 190e and 300e manual gearboxes were designed for the smaller flex joint.
^^ Just verified this...slight bummer, but im not convinced to go with the smaller disc just yet... Im going to try and clearance it a bit to see if I can make it work... here's some pics for posterity...
here's a comparison holding the smaller (190D) trilobe flange up to the installed 560SEL one:
Here's where the output flange hits (the pictured lobe hits in the CCW direction in the unshaded Sharpie mark and the next lobe in the CCW direction hits the shaded area in the foreground when I try to spin the flange CW.
Here's a shot of the aft end showing the aforementioned clearance issues as well as the two question marks (??) where I wasnt sure about the bolt heads clearing:
Here's a closer view of the bolt clearance, it'll be close and likely will need some more clearancing:
At any rate, there will be 2-3mm of clearance necessary in one of those spots and about 1mm in the other... the bolt clearancing looks like about 1mm or so, but over a larger radius... hopefully 'JB3 dropnosky' can take a look at these pics and lemme know if I'm likely to get into the internals at all...
Also a bit of good news...
Here's the 560SEL (late w126) shaft installed on the 190D 711.410 trans:
Here's a pic of the total length (just shy of 53", looks to be between 52&7/8" and 52&15/16"):
should be a nice fit compared to stock 722.4 auto trans / OM603 combo...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
raysorenson
05-21-2013, 12:36 PM #12TJ#2: How does the car do with no clutch fan? Are there hills in lalaland? Does the a/c work well? Are you just using the stock electric fan and fan controls?
(05-21-2013, 12:36 PM)raysorenson TJ#2: How does the car do with no clutch fan? Are there hills in lalaland? Does the a/c work well? Are you just using the stock electric fan and fan controls?
+1.. also, what is your timing set at?
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
05-21-2013, 12:39 PM #13(05-21-2013, 12:36 PM)raysorenson TJ#2: How does the car do with no clutch fan? Are there hills in lalaland? Does the a/c work well? Are you just using the stock electric fan and fan controls?
+1.. also, what is your timing set at?
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
I built my own circuit for aux fan because the stock wiring was in bad shape. I'm using an 88c BMW temp switch to turn on the aux fan through a relay and I also have a backup switch in the dash in case the thermo switch fails. I'm using a 71c thermostat in place of the stock 80c. With a #14 head I want to do everything possible to keep the temp below 100c at all times. The stock viscous clutch fan doesn't engage until the temp is above 100c so its useless to me. After that experience I think the single stock AUX fan is inadequate and I'm going to have to figure out something else. I can either get the dual aux fan from a later W124 or dual electric puller fans. Theres only 3" of clearance between the radiator and engine and the largest puller fan I can find are 14". I prefer puller fans.
I don't know what my IP timing is set to. I advanced it a few turns at the adjustment screw a while ago a called it a day.
The aux fan on its own cools the engine. It was perfectly adequate until I was stuck in stop and go traffic going up hill in 105f heat. At that point the temp gauge got up to 100c and I had to switch off the AC and turn on the heater to keep it under 100c. This was when i still had the automatic transmission a few weeks ago. Manual transmission should reduce the thermal load a bit but I don't want to repeat that experience.
I built my own circuit for aux fan because the stock wiring was in bad shape. I'm using an 88c BMW temp switch to turn on the aux fan through a relay and I also have a backup switch in the dash in case the thermo switch fails. I'm using a 71c thermostat in place of the stock 80c. With a #14 head I want to do everything possible to keep the temp below 100c at all times. The stock viscous clutch fan doesn't engage until the temp is above 100c so its useless to me. After that experience I think the single stock AUX fan is inadequate and I'm going to have to figure out something else. I can either get the dual aux fan from a later W124 or dual electric puller fans. Theres only 3" of clearance between the radiator and engine and the largest puller fan I can find are 14". I prefer puller fans.
I don't know what my IP timing is set to. I advanced it a few turns at the adjustment screw a while ago a called it a day.
(05-21-2013, 02:28 PM)tjts1 the largest puller fan I can find are 14". I prefer puller fans.
SPAL makes some of the best electric fans, here's a 16" one:
http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p...m=30102049
their website has plenty more in that size with different CFM ratings and some larger fans as well.
Here is their "extreme" line, many different options:
http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p...ody&c=FAEX
btw, I love your edit of the "unleaded fuel only" on your guage set...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
05-21-2013, 06:40 PM #15(05-21-2013, 02:28 PM)tjts1 the largest puller fan I can find are 14". I prefer puller fans.
SPAL makes some of the best electric fans, here's a 16" one:
http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p...m=30102049
their website has plenty more in that size with different CFM ratings and some larger fans as well.
Here is their "extreme" line, many different options:
http://www.spalusa.com/store/main.aspx?p...ody&c=FAEX
btw, I love your edit of the "unleaded fuel only" on your guage set...
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/t...1241739345
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/t...1241739815
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/t...1241739875
Too bad theres no room for one of these, its an excellent fan.
The fuel/temp/oil gauge is out of my former 92 190. The 300d fuel gauge was bouncing around so swapping this in was a free fix.
I don't think I'm going to be spending that much on a radiator fan. Even their 16" fan is 3.45" deep and I have just under 3.5" between the radiator and the belt pulleys. The 14" fans are the only ones I've been able to find at 3" or less which is more realistic for clearance. A pair of 14" fans should be doable and cover more radiator area. In the past I used JY volvo e-fans to convert all my other cars except the 2.6 which again didn't have room. This is my 2.3.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/t...1241739345
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/t...1241739815
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v242/t...1241739875
Too bad theres no room for one of these, its an excellent fan.
The fuel/temp/oil gauge is out of my former 92 190. The 300d fuel gauge was bouncing around so swapping this in was a free fix.
(05-21-2013, 07:32 PM)tjts1 I don't think I'm going to be spending that much on a radiator fan.
The fuel/temp/oil gauge is out of my former 92 190. The 300d fuel gauge was bouncing around so swapping this in was a free fix.
Yeah SPAL is pretty spendy option. I have a dual 12 or 14 inch setup I got from some Japanese marque, but do remember what make/model/year it was. If I end up using it Ill post the part #.
I have an gauge cluster I got from a 300e, only thing that didn't work right was the tach. I had a similar fuel level issue. Ill likely get some of those MoMan EL faceplate kits one of these days and get rid of those two crappy bulbs above the guages once and for all.
(05-21-2013, 07:32 PM)tjts1 I don't think I'm going to be spending that much on a radiator fan.
The fuel/temp/oil gauge is out of my former 92 190. The 300d fuel gauge was bouncing around so swapping this in was a free fix.
Yeah SPAL is pretty spendy option. I have a dual 12 or 14 inch setup I got from some Japanese marque, but do remember what make/model/year it was. If I end up using it Ill post the part #.
I have an gauge cluster I got from a 300e, only thing that didn't work right was the tach. I had a similar fuel level issue. Ill likely get some of those MoMan EL faceplate kits one of these days and get rid of those two crappy bulbs above the guages once and for all.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
SurfRodder
05-22-2013, 01:08 AM #17(05-21-2013, 07:32 PM)tjts1 I don't think I'm going to be spending that much on a radiator fan.
The fuel/temp/oil gauge is out of my former 92 190. The 300d fuel gauge was bouncing around so swapping this in was a free fix.
Yeah SPAL is pretty spendy option. I have a dual 12 or 14 inch setup I got from some Japanese marque, but do remember what make/model/year it was. If I end up using it Ill post the part #.
I have an gauge cluster I got from a 300e, only thing that didn't work right was the tach. I had a similar fuel level issue. Ill likely get some of those MoMan EL faceplate kits one of these days and get rid of those two crappy bulbs above the guages once and for all.
(05-21-2013, 07:32 PM)tjts1 I don't think I'm going to be spending that much on a radiator fan.
The fuel/temp/oil gauge is out of my former 92 190. The 300d fuel gauge was bouncing around so swapping this in was a free fix.
Yeah SPAL is pretty spendy option. I have a dual 12 or 14 inch setup I got from some Japanese marque, but do remember what make/model/year it was. If I end up using it Ill post the part #.
I have an gauge cluster I got from a 300e, only thing that didn't work right was the tach. I had a similar fuel level issue. Ill likely get some of those MoMan EL faceplate kits one of these days and get rid of those two crappy bulbs above the guages once and for all.
W123 Mods: 4 speed ** manual climate control ** '85 Kalitucky intake ** manual windows & full tint ** Euro headlights retrofit w/bixenon projectors ** 4 brake light mod ** Vogtland 50mm drop front & Lesjofors S600 drop rear springs ** 16" rims ** late w126 brake spindles, rotors & calipers ** full suspension rehab ** Bilstein HDs ** AL129X alternator & 1/0 starter and charging cables ** 300GD clutch/flywheel ** AFCO 80103N radiator & Earl's 41610 oil cooler ** custom block-off plate, remote oil filter & t-stat ** MW IP w/ tomnik's 6.5mm 'Holly' elements **
S124 Mods: 400E Rear subframe ** SL600 Brakes ** Late 300E 210mm diff ** SLK230 6 speed ** 17" CLK rims ** Vented RF Fender ** Facelift Hood, Headlights, and Lower Cladding **
OBK# 62
![[Image: 208163.png]](http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-us/208163.png)
After 5 speed swap
![[Image: 208104.png]](http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-us/208104.png)
I have about 1500 miles on it so far, the vast majority of it on the highway with AC runing between 70-80mph where ever I can. I think the top speed i got to was 110mph somewhere in the middle of nowhere on the 5. The engine stalled twice when I pressed in the clutch at about 2500rpm and let the revs drop. I dont know what thats all about. I also added an electric puller fan on the passenger side which I wired in parallel with the existing aux fan. I think I'm going to add a second puller fan on the diver side and ditch the aux completely. The puller fan flows a lot more air and make less noise.
Before swap
After 5 speed swap
I have about 1500 miles on it so far, the vast majority of it on the highway with AC runing between 70-80mph where ever I can. I think the top speed i got to was 110mph somewhere in the middle of nowhere on the 5. The engine stalled twice when I pressed in the clutch at about 2500rpm and let the revs drop. I dont know what thats all about. I also added an electric puller fan on the passenger side which I wired in parallel with the existing aux fan. I think I'm going to add a second puller fan on the diver side and ditch the aux completely. The puller fan flows a lot more air and make less noise.
http://i.imgur.com/FkeAebu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zoQWY7o.jpg
Well past 3000 miles so far on the swap and nothing has fallen off the car yet. I experimented with a different set of rebuilt injectors which didn't turn out as well as I had hoped. I swapped out the OM603 water pump pulley for a smaller M103 pulley which spins the water pump 15% faster. The idea is to try to keep the coolant moving faster during a hot idle where its most likely to over heat. It fit with the existing OM603 belt although ideally you would want a belt that is about 1/2" shorter. Still haven't experienced any extreme heat this summer with the aux fan + 14" puller fan. It'll be interesting to see how it all holds up.
http://i.imgur.com/FkeAebu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zoQWY7o.jpg
While the seats might look the same the internal construction is very different. The 87 had horse hair instead of foam which was falling apart and causing back pain on long trips. New seats are much more firm and use foam instead of horse hair. The passenger seat was plug and play (non memory) but the driver seat required splicing 12 wires under the seat plus 2 more in the door mounted switches to get power to the seat motors. I lost the memory function on the driver's side but I'm not really bothered by that. I wish manual seats were easier to find. I think I'm going to replace the whole interior to match the new seats. I like this color much better.
![[Image: Vdnn9JK.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/Vdnn9JK.jpg)
I installed 1992 300e seats into my 1987 300d. $16/each at the JY.
While the seats might look the same the internal construction is very different. The 87 had horse hair instead of foam which was falling apart and causing back pain on long trips. New seats are much more firm and use foam instead of horse hair. The passenger seat was plug and play (non memory) but the driver seat required splicing 12 wires under the seat plus 2 more in the door mounted switches to get power to the seat motors. I lost the memory function on the driver's side but I'm not really bothered by that. I wish manual seats were easier to find. I think I'm going to replace the whole interior to match the new seats. I like this color much better.
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
07-15-2013, 11:19 AM #21looks comfortable
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
![[Image: GqYOlYJ.jpg?1]](http://i.imgur.com/GqYOlYJ.jpg?1)
14,500 miles later and the small flex disks both front and rear were toast. I checked the angle and between the gearbox and the front driveshaft and they're within 0.2 degrees of each other. Hopefully the Lemforder disks last a bit longer otherwise I'll have to find another solution.
Best was 37.1MPG. Which is about spot-on in the factory MPG claims My next goal is 40 MPG with auto trans...
DiseaselWeasel
06-19-2014, 12:05 PM #24Hmmm. On my commute I get at least 31MPG (US) with the std. auto trans... Seems hardly worth the hassle. Best was 37.1MPG. Which is about spot-on in the factory MPG claims
My next goal is 40 MPG with auto trans...
(06-16-2014, 11:00 AM)tjts1 14,500 miles later and the small flex disks both front and rear were toast. I checked the angle and between the gearbox and the front driveshaft and they're within 0.2 degrees of each other. Hopefully the Lemforder disks last a bit longer otherwise I'll have to find another solution.
Thus the woes begin. First off, use the solid "taxi" or rear flex disks. What size is that yoke? The meyle catalog is an AWESOME place to look for part numbers for flex disks because it has DIMENSIONS and other tidbits no others have. It is my go to place when researching. Should have stuck with the larger DS IMO. I did something similar to you and regret it every day. Most of my flex disks issues were related to my yoke being bent. Since I replaced the yoke I've not had any flex disk issues. If you are going to upgrade the IP you will def want a 717.430.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(06-16-2014, 11:00 AM)tjts1 14,500 miles later and the small flex disks both front and rear were toast. I checked the angle and between the gearbox and the front driveshaft and they're within 0.2 degrees of each other. Hopefully the Lemforder disks last a bit longer otherwise I'll have to find another solution.
Thus the woes begin. First off, use the solid "taxi" or rear flex disks. What size is that yoke? The meyle catalog is an AWESOME place to look for part numbers for flex disks because it has DIMENSIONS and other tidbits no others have. It is my go to place when researching. Should have stuck with the larger DS IMO. I did something similar to you and regret it every day. Most of my flex disks issues were related to my yoke being bent. Since I replaced the yoke I've not had any flex disk issues. If you are going to upgrade the IP you will def want a 717.430.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
I thought 14,500 miles before it gave me any trouble was pretty good. I did use the solid "taxi" flex disks front and rear. I'm willing to replace flex disks more frequently if thats what It takes. The Chinese flex disk I installed with the swap was a bad decision on my part. Hopefully the Lemforders i installed this time will last longer. From now on I'm keeping an extra set in the spare tire well just in case along with the usual diesel spares (fuel filter, glow plug relay etc).
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
Then there was the time I was on 85N where its 16 lanes wide, in the left lane in parking lot traffic where my flex disk blew on the W123. Wearing flipflops I managed to get the car over to the side of the road, my wife brought me tools, jack and spare flex and I changed it there on the side of the interstate. 3hrs later back on the road to go camping... Miserable.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(05-19-2013, 11:48 PM)tjts1 I've read about the cheap dealer manual cross member but I didn't see any threaded holes in the floor pan where the manual cross member would go. I would need to drill new ones and add the captive nuts which would be a lot of work. There were 4 holes with captive nuts hidden under rubber plugs but they're too far forward to be of any use. They're near the center of the transmission. A cross member there would cover over the drain plug.
Hmm? Are US cars any different? After all n/a OM603 with 5-speed was the stock configuration in Europe. And despite the added turbo there's not much difference (read: no) as far as the engine's position & size in the car is oncerned.
![[Image: 300d_getriebehalter.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/300d_getriebehalter.jpg)
The most forward holes are used for 4-bangers with 4- or 5-spd.
The 6-cylinder 5-spd (resp. std. - 6-cyl never got a 4-spd) crossmember is sort of a "V"-shaped affair. It uses the front threads of the auto-crossmember and the next one. See picture. I hope it's visible, it's the best picture I have. It's off a n/a 300D with std. gearbox (resp. 717 5-spd).
Any W124 body is prepared for any engine, apart from the V8s. I've put a OM603 Turbo into a 300CE and it was more or less plug&play (apart from the rear drive shaft half which needed shortening).
Anyway. If the bigger yoke can be made to fit - I think that's the best solution, together with lengthened std. drive shaft. I had mine shortened to fit the OM603 in a Coupé - afterall there must be a reason that the turbos got a bigger drive shaft. High torque & long diff means high forces on the drive train. The cheap flex discs however don't even last with 4-pots. So that's no surprise
I've thought about doing a 5-spd swap - but judging from this it's allready as economical as it could be. But my engine is euro-spec, inclined injection non-EGR. It has a cat converter though. I'm rather going for column shift
On the other hand the temptation to throw out the slush box is big, manuals are IMHO much less troublesome. I keep wathcing this thread and please excuse my previous comment - it's just that I'm a bit dissapointed it doesn't net a bigger MPG gain. As I said, I'm almost always in the 30's with the std. factory spec engine/gearbox.
Engine has done 161k miles, gearbox 350k miles.
DiseaselWeasel
06-21-2014, 05:42 AM #28(05-19-2013, 11:48 PM)tjts1 I've read about the cheap dealer manual cross member but I didn't see any threaded holes in the floor pan where the manual cross member would go. I would need to drill new ones and add the captive nuts which would be a lot of work. There were 4 holes with captive nuts hidden under rubber plugs but they're too far forward to be of any use. They're near the center of the transmission. A cross member there would cover over the drain plug.
Hmm? Are US cars any different? After all n/a OM603 with 5-speed was the stock configuration in Europe. And despite the added turbo there's not much difference (read: no) as far as the engine's position & size in the car is oncerned.
The most forward holes are used for 4-bangers with 4- or 5-spd.
The 6-cylinder 5-spd (resp. std. - 6-cyl never got a 4-spd) crossmember is sort of a "V"-shaped affair. It uses the front threads of the auto-crossmember and the next one. See picture. I hope it's visible, it's the best picture I have. It's off a n/a 300D with std. gearbox (resp. 717 5-spd).
Any W124 body is prepared for any engine, apart from the V8s. I've put a OM603 Turbo into a 300CE and it was more or less plug&play (apart from the rear drive shaft half which needed shortening).
Anyway. If the bigger yoke can be made to fit - I think that's the best solution, together with lengthened std. drive shaft. I had mine shortened to fit the OM603 in a Coupé - afterall there must be a reason that the turbos got a bigger drive shaft. High torque & long diff means high forces on the drive train. The cheap flex discs however don't even last with 4-pots. So that's no surprise
I've thought about doing a 5-spd swap - but judging from this it's allready as economical as it could be. But my engine is euro-spec, inclined injection non-EGR. It has a cat converter though. I'm rather going for column shift
On the other hand the temptation to throw out the slush box is big, manuals are IMHO much less troublesome. I keep wathcing this thread and please excuse my previous comment - it's just that I'm a bit dissapointed it doesn't net a bigger MPG gain. As I said, I'm almost always in the 30's with the std. factory spec engine/gearbox.
Engine has done 161k miles, gearbox 350k miles.
(06-21-2014, 05:42 AM)DiseaselWeasel I keep wathcing this thread and please excuse my previous comment - it's just that I'm a bit dissapointed it doesn't net a bigger MPG gain. As I said, I'm almost always in the 30's with the std. factory spec engine/gearbox.Are you sure you're using US gallons (3.78L) instead of UK gallons (4.54L)?
Prior to the transmission swap it averaged 29.9mpg or 7.9L/100KM over 7900 miles.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/mercedes-benz/...enz/208163
After the swap its averaging 38.1mpg or 6.2L/100KM over 14,500 miles.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/mercedes-benz/...enz/208104
I think a 30% improvement is pretty good IMHO.
I'll try to get some pics of my X member area next time I'm under the car so you can see what I mean. So far the backwards automatic X member has been totally reliable so I see no reason to change it. I checked the alignment between the transmission and the driveshaft and they're within 0.2 degrees of each other so I doubt that was the cause of the flexdisk failure. More likely than not it was poor flexdisk quality. I learned my lesson.
(06-21-2014, 05:42 AM)DiseaselWeasel I keep wathcing this thread and please excuse my previous comment - it's just that I'm a bit dissapointed it doesn't net a bigger MPG gain. As I said, I'm almost always in the 30's with the std. factory spec engine/gearbox.Are you sure you're using US gallons (3.78L) instead of UK gallons (4.54L)?
Prior to the transmission swap it averaged 29.9mpg or 7.9L/100KM over 7900 miles.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/mercedes-benz/...enz/208163
After the swap its averaging 38.1mpg or 6.2L/100KM over 14,500 miles.
http://www.fuelly.com/car/mercedes-benz/...enz/208104
I think a 30% improvement is pretty good IMHO.
I'll try to get some pics of my X member area next time I'm under the car so you can see what I mean. So far the backwards automatic X member has been totally reliable so I see no reason to change it. I checked the alignment between the transmission and the driveshaft and they're within 0.2 degrees of each other so I doubt that was the cause of the flexdisk failure. More likely than not it was poor flexdisk quality. I learned my lesson.
On my commute I'm at about 6.7-7.5 depending on traffic. In your case it's a good improvement, yes. But I don't think I myself could lower it much anymore with a manual. Respectively I find the auto too comfortable for a smal gain. I'd be well in the 5.Xl/100km region going by this figures - I don't believe that's possible. And too much work to try. My opinion may change if the 722 dies. But so far I'm very, very pleased with that milage, given the fact that my car almost weights 1.7 metric tonnes! All guess work, I know. anyway, it's good to have it all documented here I think. And as I said - if the 722 dies, I may consider a manual gearbox too. As finding another - GOOD - 722.357 will be hard or expensive over here. The high taxes and exclusion/low emission zones send most diesels to africa or eastern europe...
I too see no reason to throw out a working crossmember - but the stock item should fit and the threads should be present. If not - I'm about to learn something new
But I could bet they'r present
DiseaselWeasel
06-21-2014, 12:59 PM #31Hi! Yes. 7.5l/100km average, 6.3/100 best on a run On my commute I'm at about 6.7-7.5 depending on traffic. In your case it's a good improvement, yes. But I don't think I myself could lower it much anymore with a manual. Respectively I find the auto too comfortable for a smal gain. I'd be well in the 5.Xl/100km region going by this figures - I don't believe that's possible. And too much work to try. My opinion may change if the 722 dies. But so far I'm very, very pleased with that milage, given the fact that my car almost weights 1.7 metric tonnes!
All guess work, I know. anyway, it's good to have it all documented here I think. And as I said - if the 722 dies, I may consider a manual gearbox too. As finding another - GOOD - 722.357 will be hard or expensive over here. The high taxes and exclusion/low emission zones send most diesels to africa or eastern europe...
I too see no reason to throw out a working crossmember - but the stock item should fit and the threads should be present. If not - I'm about to learn something new But I could bet they'r present
7/28/13 560.70 miles 13.60 gal 95% highway 41.23 mpg 5.7L/100KM
5/30/13 958.40 miles 23.52 gal 90% highway 40.75 mpg 5.8L/100KM
These usually happen when I'm driving 400 miles or more between LA and other cities on the west coast with a loaded car. I keep the speed between 70-80mph depending on conditions. AC is usually running to some extent in the summer, less so in the winter. I have a newer cylinder head with angled injectors ready to go in one of these days. If only my #14 head would die.
11/8/13 951.40 miles 22.77 gal 80% highway 41.78 mpg 5.6L/100KM
7/28/13 560.70 miles 13.60 gal 95% highway 41.23 mpg 5.7L/100KM
5/30/13 958.40 miles 23.52 gal 90% highway 40.75 mpg 5.8L/100KM
These usually happen when I'm driving 400 miles or more between LA and other cities on the west coast with a loaded car. I keep the speed between 70-80mph depending on conditions. AC is usually running to some extent in the summer, less so in the winter. I have a newer cylinder head with angled injectors ready to go in one of these days. If only my #14 head would die.
DiseaselWeasel
06-21-2014, 03:25 PM #33Hmmmmmmmmm.... And I just got me this...
(06-21-2014, 03:25 PM)DiseaselWeasel Hmmmmmmmmm.... And I just got me this...
What did you rip that out of??? MB OE?
Ahhhhh, the memories. Seems like only last week I was ignorantly ham-handin' away on my '56's three on the tree, trying (more like praying) not to get the forks crossed up and that dolgarned thing stuck in two gears at once!
MBZ123
(06-21-2014, 03:25 PM)DiseaselWeasel Hmmmmmmmmm.... And I just got me this...
What did you rip that out of??? MB OE?
Ahhhhh, the memories. Seems like only last week I was ignorantly ham-handin' away on my '56's three on the tree, trying (more like praying) not to get the forks crossed up and that dolgarned thing stuck in two gears at once!
MBZ123
Though the cable shift was only used on early cars, later ones got a linkage going through the firewall (this goes down the gearbox tunel like the center shifter). Taxis destined for Finland had manual column shifters (4spd only) & 3 front seats 
I'm glad I got the cable version - as you mentioned a worn out column shift is - horrendous.
W123s were the last cars offered with optional column shift (ok, there are W124 Taxis for Finland with manual 4spd column shift, but mortal customers could not order it). Though I think the latest S-Class has reintroduced this feature.
DiseaselWeasel
06-22-2014, 04:19 AM #35Um yes - factory option for any W123, /8 & W116 Though the cable shift was only used on early cars, later ones got a linkage going through the firewall (this goes down the gearbox tunel like the center shifter). Taxis destined for Finland had manual column shifters (4spd only) & 3 front seats
I'm glad I got the cable version - as you mentioned a worn out column shift is - horrendous.
W123s were the last cars offered with optional column shift (ok, there are W124 Taxis for Finland with manual 4spd column shift, but mortal customers could not order it). Though I think the latest S-Class has reintroduced this feature.
Never knew 123 came with column shift. Too sweet. One more thing to get my mind offtrackedon. !o! Dem possibilities doe.
When you mention being re-introduced, you mean just like these wrt to form/function? Pretty sure you're not talking about paddle-shifters right? Wonder what the impetus for that could've been? Hmmm.
MBZ123
Horrendous indeed. Horrendously costly! I replaced that ferd three-spd a couple of times before I learned. Luckily back in early nineties, standard gb's still o'plenty.
Never knew 123 came with column shift. Too sweet. One more thing to get my mind offtrackedon. !o! Dem possibilities doe.
When you mention being re-introduced, you mean just like these wrt to form/function? Pretty sure you're not talking about paddle-shifters right? Wonder what the impetus for that could've been? Hmmm.
MBZ123
Nowadays called "Direct select": http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/medi...3-2013.jpg - but looks like it was the W221 S-Class which re-intruduced it. The last S-Class was the W116.
DiseaselWeasel
06-22-2014, 09:17 AM #37Nono, I'm talking about gear selection on the steering column Nowadays called "Direct select": http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/medi...3-2013.jpg - but looks like it was the W221 S-Class which re-intruduced it. The last S-Class was the W116.
raysorenson
06-24-2014, 04:06 PM #38Don't wait on getting those angled prechambers and injectors in. Very worthwhile mod. Your head may go forever. Don't forget the angled PC's use a different glow plug.
(06-24-2014, 04:06 PM)raysorenson Don't wait on getting those angled prechambers and injectors in. Very worthwhile mod. Your head may go forever. Don't forget the angled PC's use a different glow plug.I have a complete head, with prechambers, injectors, glow plugs, fuel lines, etc. Came off a 140 that had been in an accident. I'm going to wait at least until I get my hands a 140 exhaust manifold as well. I really want to lose the 3 piece monstrosity on my car.
The column shifter is ehh... one hell of a conversation starter. I want to see it in action.
EDIT: LOL
![[Image: Mercedes-124-column-shifter-small.jpg]](http://www.classiccarstodayonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Mercedes-124-column-shifter-small.jpg)
(06-24-2014, 04:06 PM)raysorenson Don't wait on getting those angled prechambers and injectors in. Very worthwhile mod. Your head may go forever. Don't forget the angled PC's use a different glow plug.I have a complete head, with prechambers, injectors, glow plugs, fuel lines, etc. Came off a 140 that had been in an accident. I'm going to wait at least until I get my hands a 140 exhaust manifold as well. I really want to lose the 3 piece monstrosity on my car.
The column shifter is ehh... one hell of a conversation starter. I want to see it in action.
EDIT: LOL
The picture above shows the manual(!) 4-spd column shifter for Finland Taxis. It's basically the old /8 gear shifter in a W124. For customers, the W123 could only be ordered with the column shift for automatic transmission. The manual CS was never officially for sale.
This is a Finish Taxi with manual column shift & "bench"seat. The center arm rest acted as backrest, and the lower part of the Taxi center console was cut away to make room for legs (hence the column shift in the first place!). Pretty special, very rare - and as said, could not be ordered by mortal customers.
![[Image: finnland_3-sitzer-1.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/finnland_3-sitzer-1.jpg)
The very same principel was used with W124 taxis for the Finish market! "Bench"seat & column shifter + cut-away Taxi center console
![[Image: finnland_3-sitzer.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/finnland_3-sitzer.jpg)
DiseaselWeasel
06-25-2014, 11:56 AM #41There are two types of column shifter; linkage & cable. The linkage has many ball joints and bearings which wear out. The cable has only two joints - and that's it.
The picture above shows the manual(!) 4-spd column shifter for Finland Taxis. It's basically the old /8 gear shifter in a W124. For customers, the W123 could only be ordered with the column shift for automatic transmission. The manual CS was never officially for sale.
This is a Finish Taxi with manual column shift & "bench"seat. The center arm rest acted as backrest, and the lower part of the Taxi center console was cut away to make room for legs (hence the column shift in the first place!). Pretty special, very rare - and as said, could not be ordered by mortal customers.
The very same principel was used with W124 taxis for the Finish market! "Bench"seat & column shifter + cut-away Taxi center console
Here's another one...
![[Image: image80118.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/image80118.jpg)
![[Image: lenkradschaltung-finnland.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/lenkradschaltung-finnland.jpg)
I've had loot into the EPC - none ofthe parts are available anymore... Looks like you'd have to import a Taxi from Finland to get hold of it.
DiseaselWeasel
06-26-2014, 04:05 AM #43Cuddly, isn't it?
Here's another one...
I've had loot into the EPC - none ofthe parts are available anymore... Looks like you'd have to import a Taxi from Finland to get hold of it.
![[Image: lenkradschaltung_finnland_w124.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/lenkradschaltung_finnland_w124.jpg)
It's pretty much a normal shifter, just with a longer shaft (column) in a different position.
But as said - none of the parts are available anymore. I've tried it
(06-26-2014, 09:34 AM)tjts1 Were all the column shift 124s 4spd like the one pictured? 5spd column shift would be interesting.
Yes. It's more or less the same principle used on W115/W123 and W124. Just with adapted parts, but many have 123 or 115 part nos. The early cable-auto-column-shifter as I have is "unique" to the very early W123s. The later autos had a similar column shift with a 2nd column through the firewall. Just with lesser linkages
The gear indicator was only used with automatics and is electrical, very simple. It just lights up (only with ign. on!).
W123 automatic (230E):
![[Image: w123_lra-1.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/w123_lra-1.jpg)
![[Image: w123_lra-2.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/w123_lra-2.jpg)
![[Image: w123_lra-3.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/w123_lra-3.jpg)
![[Image: w123_lra-4.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/w123_lra-4.jpg)
^this was similar with the manual column shift used in Finland exclusively, just with some more linkages
Hope the pictures are clear enough, hard to get good pics in thie area...And please keep the pictures at STD, I don't want them posted on PP or BenzWorld or anywhere else, please
Oh, and I don't think I'd like to drive a manual column-shift... You need to lean forward a bit for each gear change, it's a bit awkward. And auto you just put into "D" however... Why waste all the space with a shifter??
![[Image: w123_lra-5.jpg]](http://jan-wulf.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/w123_lra-5.jpg)
DiseaselWeasel
06-26-2014, 09:54 AM #46Pretty simple. 2nd column (138) through the firewall into a block attached to the firewall (8) which re-directs the linkages to the gearbox, which has different shift rods pointing towards the front of the car.
It's pretty much a normal shifter, just with a longer shaft (column) in a different position.
But as said - none of the parts are available anymore. I've tried it
(06-26-2014, 09:34 AM)tjts1 Were all the column shift 124s 4spd like the one pictured? 5spd column shift would be interesting.
Yes. It's more or less the same principle used on W115/W123 and W124. Just with adapted parts, but many have 123 or 115 part nos. The early cable-auto-column-shifter as I have is "unique" to the very early W123s. The later autos had a similar column shift with a 2nd column through the firewall. Just with lesser linkages
The gear indicator was only used with automatics and is electrical, very simple. It just lights up (only with ign. on!).
W123 automatic (230E):
^this was similar with the manual column shift used in Finland exclusively, just with some more linkages
Hope the pictures are clear enough, hard to get good pics in thie area...And please keep the pictures at STD, I don't want them posted on PP or BenzWorld or anywhere else, please
Oh, and I don't think I'd like to drive a manual column-shift... You need to lean forward a bit for each gear change, it's a bit awkward. And auto you just put into "D" however... Why waste all the space with a shifter??
For a "luxury" car where one is sitting almost below the shifter in a way, I can see a lot of "movement." LOL
In pickups and the like it is almost as if you're on top of the dern steering column, so working the shifter is cake.
DW - Did you not wanna grab the modded center console and related bits to install? That entire setup is too cool, even if out of a taxi. A backrest length arm rest, for customer comfort of course! HA
DAT center airbag in the 124, priceless...
MBZ123
+1 on the ergonomics.
For a "luxury" car where one is sitting almost below the shifter in a way, I can see a lot of "movement." LOL
In pickups and the like it is almost as if you're on top of the dern steering column, so working the shifter is cake.
DW - Did you not wanna grab the modded center console and related bits to install? That entire setup is too cool, even if out of a taxi. A backrest length arm rest, for customer comfort of course! HA
DAT center airbag in the 124, priceless...
MBZ123
What I got was a freeby - I'm currently hunting for the rest. I've bought a center console insert with tray yesterday. http://www.ebay.de/itm/301223069187 - so I'm looking for that setup. The Finland-Taxi "bench seat" is too impractical and I don't need it.
However, I have two W124 Taxi center consoles. If you'r looking for one, I could part with one. But it's missing the center wood and lids on the sides (I maybe have them somewhere - though they'r available new for cheap)... also condition is far from perfect.
DiseaselWeasel
06-30-2014, 06:23 AM #48MBZ123; my setup is for W123 automatic, which could be ordered by mortal customers. Only manual CS was reserved for finnish Taxis. But I think the CS was never offered for export markets.
What I got was a freeby - I'm currently hunting for the rest. I've bought a center console insert with tray yesterday. http://www.ebay.de/itm/301223069187 - so I'm looking for that setup. The Finland-Taxi "bench seat" is too impractical and I don't need it.
However, I have two W124 Taxi center consoles. If you'r looking for one, I could part with one. But it's missing the center wood and lids on the sides (I maybe have them somewhere - though they'r available new for cheap)... also condition is far from perfect.
1 Guest(s)
1 Guest(s)