Custom High Flow DN0SD Nozzles
Custom High Flow DN0SD Nozzles
06-20-2013, 06:28 PM
#1
I think the 315 nozzle would be a good upgrade for a stock IP, but I am looking for quite a bit more flow... like 50 to 75% more compared at any given pintle lift. My goal is to get as much flow with as little pintle lift as possible with good atomization, instead of a stream from a garden hose.
I have been talking with a nozzle manufacturer about making some custom nozzles, and so far the conversation is going well.
I have been looking into higher flowing nozzles, (at the same pintle lift as stock delivery over stock time requires), for some time now to match the delivery rates of the 10mm elements. A friend told me about the 315 nozzles, and that they flow 15% more than the 265 nozzle at the same pintle lift, and I have some in holders but have not had the time to run them.
I think the 315 nozzle would be a good upgrade for a stock IP, but I am looking for quite a bit more flow... like 50 to 75% more compared at any given pintle lift. My goal is to get as much flow with as little pintle lift as possible with good atomization, instead of a stream from a garden hose.
I have been talking with a nozzle manufacturer about making some custom nozzles, and so far the conversation is going well.
06-20-2013, 08:21 PM
#2
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
06-20-2013, 08:21 PM #2I'm interested, but broke as hell. :p
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
06-21-2013, 08:52 AM
#3
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
Yes, the 315's will deliver more fuel and are a direct plug and play in the OM617.9XX injector body.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
06-23-2013, 01:50 PM
#6
(06-23-2013, 05:51 AM)kotka Any idea of proper fit nozzles for om606 with 7-8mm plungers on the mech pump?
It all depends on the quantity of fuel delivered over what time.... IMOP there is more HP to be made with the fuel that is available now with available superpumps, if the fuel delivery system was matched, allowing for better atomization instead of streaming in fuel like a garden hose because the pintle has to be pushed up much farther than it was designed to in order to allow for the high delivery rates at high speeds.
Additionally, given the above scenario, the Delivery Valves are not able to do their job, so the injection stability goes to hell as well. Use of properly sized Delivery Valves would help in this situation, but it will reduce some delivered fuel in exchange. With a properly sized nozzle for the delivered quantity and time, I would imagine that even stock Delivery valves could be used, and with a matched system, the result would be good atomization and injection stability, which would make more power.
The best I can do is to use the OEM ratios of delivered quantity and time at the peek efficiency RPM of the engine as a standard, not to say that 1970s tec could not be improved, but it is a starting point.
Then look at the delivered quantities and time for the 8mm elements and compare. It is quantity over time, so with the stock nozzles and DVs, the more quantity will have to be delivered over a longer period of time, and given that the 8mm elements will deliver faster than the 5.5 or 6mm elements, the engine speed will have to be reduced to compensate so as to not push the pintle past the sweet spot so to say.
Once the delivered quantity over time exceeds what the nozzle was designed for, the stock DVs are not sufficient, and start acting like cut DVs with stock elements.
I have been told that the 315 nozles flow about 15% more than the 265 nozzle, and they both have the same sized pressure section which is important for the DVs. So it would seem to me that with the 315 nozzle you can either deliver 15% more fuel over the same time, or deliver the same quantity 15% faster and be with in the calibration of the DVs, ( in theory).
I am looking to have a nozzle made that will flow in the area of 75% more at an optimum pintle lift as a staring point. I have not hear back from the engineers yet….
(06-23-2013, 05:51 AM)kotka Any idea of proper fit nozzles for om606 with 7-8mm plungers on the mech pump?
It all depends on the quantity of fuel delivered over what time.... IMOP there is more HP to be made with the fuel that is available now with available superpumps, if the fuel delivery system was matched, allowing for better atomization instead of streaming in fuel like a garden hose because the pintle has to be pushed up much farther than it was designed to in order to allow for the high delivery rates at high speeds.
Additionally, given the above scenario, the Delivery Valves are not able to do their job, so the injection stability goes to hell as well. Use of properly sized Delivery Valves would help in this situation, but it will reduce some delivered fuel in exchange. With a properly sized nozzle for the delivered quantity and time, I would imagine that even stock Delivery valves could be used, and with a matched system, the result would be good atomization and injection stability, which would make more power.
The best I can do is to use the OEM ratios of delivered quantity and time at the peek efficiency RPM of the engine as a standard, not to say that 1970s tec could not be improved, but it is a starting point.
Then look at the delivered quantities and time for the 8mm elements and compare. It is quantity over time, so with the stock nozzles and DVs, the more quantity will have to be delivered over a longer period of time, and given that the 8mm elements will deliver faster than the 5.5 or 6mm elements, the engine speed will have to be reduced to compensate so as to not push the pintle past the sweet spot so to say.
Once the delivered quantity over time exceeds what the nozzle was designed for, the stock DVs are not sufficient, and start acting like cut DVs with stock elements.
I have been told that the 315 nozles flow about 15% more than the 265 nozzle, and they both have the same sized pressure section which is important for the DVs. So it would seem to me that with the 315 nozzle you can either deliver 15% more fuel over the same time, or deliver the same quantity 15% faster and be with in the calibration of the DVs, ( in theory).
I am looking to have a nozzle made that will flow in the area of 75% more at an optimum pintle lift as a staring point. I have not hear back from the engineers yet….
06-23-2013, 02:02 PM
#7
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Om616, don't you have a wire edm? That's how they make bigger holes in other nozzles, I don't see why it couldn't work with these
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
06-23-2013, 02:18 PM
#8
(06-23-2013, 02:02 PM)MFSuper90 Om616, don't you have a wire edm? That's how they make bigger holes in other nozzles, I don't see why it couldn't work with these
If the goal is to strictly pass more "fluid", then solely increasing the nozzle orifice dia will do the trick, as will cutting more flats on the pintle increasing the area between the nozzle body and the pintle. I am not a fan of those options because it does not promote a shaped and well atomized charge, but rather a dense stream of fuel.
My desire is to have as small of a gap between the nozzle body and the pintle as possible for the fuel to pass through, this should create the best chance for a well atomized charge in the proper shape. The trick is getting the nozzle and pintle scaled up to allow for the high volume of fuel.
I have seen high speed video of new OEM nozzles spitting out a very dense spray, full of large droplets, at full power delivery quantities and speeds...
(06-23-2013, 02:02 PM)MFSuper90 Om616, don't you have a wire edm? That's how they make bigger holes in other nozzles, I don't see why it couldn't work with these
If the goal is to strictly pass more "fluid", then solely increasing the nozzle orifice dia will do the trick, as will cutting more flats on the pintle increasing the area between the nozzle body and the pintle. I am not a fan of those options because it does not promote a shaped and well atomized charge, but rather a dense stream of fuel.
My desire is to have as small of a gap between the nozzle body and the pintle as possible for the fuel to pass through, this should create the best chance for a well atomized charge in the proper shape. The trick is getting the nozzle and pintle scaled up to allow for the high volume of fuel.
I have seen high speed video of new OEM nozzles spitting out a very dense spray, full of large droplets, at full power delivery quantities and speeds...
06-23-2013, 02:45 PM
#9
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
I made a video, not so high quality, of Mr. OM616's injectors spitting out a decent amount of fuel and it was fully atomized, nice spray pattern, and zero issues on the rapid fire process. Heck, those were actually dialed in within 20-25 PSI of each other ... Where are those hot little numbers ...
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
06-23-2013, 05:57 PM
#10
(06-23-2013, 02:45 PM)Greazzer I made a video, not so high quality, of Mr. OM616's injectors spitting out a decent amount of fuel and it was fully atomized, nice spray pattern, and zero issues on the rapid fire process. Heck, those were actually dialed in within 20-25 PSI of each other ... Where are those hot little numbers ...
I have not had a chance to get the EGT gage in or the new injectors... too much work and being ill are not a good combination.
Rest assured that I will have you install any nozzles I will be using... I have 4 left from that batch too.
(06-23-2013, 02:45 PM)Greazzer I made a video, not so high quality, of Mr. OM616's injectors spitting out a decent amount of fuel and it was fully atomized, nice spray pattern, and zero issues on the rapid fire process. Heck, those were actually dialed in within 20-25 PSI of each other ... Where are those hot little numbers ...
I have not had a chance to get the EGT gage in or the new injectors... too much work and being ill are not a good combination.
Rest assured that I will have you install any nozzles I will be using... I have 4 left from that batch too.
06-24-2013, 04:57 PM
#15
(06-23-2013, 02:18 PM)OM616 If the goal is to strictly pass more "fluid", then solely increasing the nozzle orifice dia will do the trick, as will cutting more flats on the pintle increasing the area between the nozzle body and the pintle. I am not a fan of those options because it does not promote a shaped and well atomized charge, but rather a dense stream of fuel.
ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
(06-23-2013, 02:18 PM)OM616 If the goal is to strictly pass more "fluid", then solely increasing the nozzle orifice dia will do the trick, as will cutting more flats on the pintle increasing the area between the nozzle body and the pintle. I am not a fan of those options because it does not promote a shaped and well atomized charge, but rather a dense stream of fuel.
ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
06-24-2013, 05:53 PM
#16
(06-24-2013, 04:57 PM)ConnClark ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
It is more like a crutch IMOP... I want a nice, controlled, 0 degree cone and as atomized as possible at much higher delivered quantities and faster rates of delivery. A higher level of refinement....
The Prechambers are bored out significantly, 10mm elements in the pump... the nozzles are the next logical step...
This post was last modified: 06-24-2013, 05:56 PM by OM616.
(06-24-2013, 04:57 PM)ConnClark ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
It is more like a crutch IMOP... I want a nice, controlled, 0 degree cone and as atomized as possible at much higher delivered quantities and faster rates of delivery. A higher level of refinement....
The Prechambers are bored out significantly, 10mm elements in the pump... the nozzles are the next logical step...
06-24-2013, 09:34 PM
#17
(06-24-2013, 04:57 PM)ConnClark ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
See this is what I was thinking, but I wasn't 120 percent positive , so I didn't say anything.
I just like to read and learn most of the time
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(06-24-2013, 04:57 PM)ConnClark ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
See this is what I was thinking, but I wasn't 120 percent positive , so I didn't say anything.
I just like to read and learn most of the time
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
06-25-2013, 01:02 AM
#18
(06-24-2013, 09:34 PM)MFSuper90(06-24-2013, 04:57 PM)ConnClark ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
See this is what I was thinking, but I wasn't 120 percent positive , so I didn't say anything.
I just like to read and learn most of the time
Requiring the ball to reformat a dense fuel stream into a combustible (atomized) state results in nailing, and is why these engines rattle so much when the injectors are worn. When fuel in injected in a dense stream it will not burn cleanly or at all resulting in a build up of fuel that suddenly becomes burnable after interacting with the swirling hot air and the ball shaft, and it all ignites at once (bang), instead of a progressively burning as it is injected. New injectors generally produce a finer fog of atomized fuel and the engine runs quiet until they start to stream fuel, then the engine gets rattly again...
I see the purpose of the ball shaft differently than most everyone...., I see it as a swirl generator primarily, but it also is able to crutch poor quality nozzles. Different understandings is fine…
(06-24-2013, 09:34 PM)MFSuper90(06-24-2013, 04:57 PM)ConnClark ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
See this is what I was thinking, but I wasn't 120 percent positive , so I didn't say anything.
I just like to read and learn most of the time
Requiring the ball to reformat a dense fuel stream into a combustible (atomized) state results in nailing, and is why these engines rattle so much when the injectors are worn. When fuel in injected in a dense stream it will not burn cleanly or at all resulting in a build up of fuel that suddenly becomes burnable after interacting with the swirling hot air and the ball shaft, and it all ignites at once (bang), instead of a progressively burning as it is injected. New injectors generally produce a finer fog of atomized fuel and the engine runs quiet until they start to stream fuel, then the engine gets rattly again...
I see the purpose of the ball shaft differently than most everyone...., I see it as a swirl generator primarily, but it also is able to crutch poor quality nozzles. Different understandings is fine…
06-25-2013, 02:53 PM
#19
(06-25-2013, 01:02 AM)OM616(06-24-2013, 09:34 PM)MFSuper90(06-24-2013, 04:57 PM)ConnClark ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
See this is what I was thinking, but I wasn't 120 percent positive , so I didn't say anything.
I just like to read and learn most of the time
Requiring the ball to reformat a dense fuel stream into a combustible (atomized) state results in nailing, and is why these engines rattle so much when the injectors are worn. When fuel in injected in a dense stream it will not burn cleanly or at all resulting in a build up of fuel that suddenly becomes burnable after interacting with the swirling hot air and the ball shaft, and it all ignites at once (bang), instead of a progressively burning as it is injected. New injectors generally produce a finer fog of atomized fuel and the engine runs quiet until they start to stream fuel, then the engine gets rattly again...
I see the purpose of the ball shaft differently than most everyone...., I see it as a swirl generator primarily, but it also is able to crutch poor quality nozzles. Different understandings is fine…
No high performance nozzle to the om606 that can manage to burn from a 270cc pump?
(06-25-2013, 01:02 AM)OM616(06-24-2013, 09:34 PM)MFSuper90(06-24-2013, 04:57 PM)ConnClark ummm in the 0m61x engine you want a stream of fuel because the prechamber pin is what does the atomizing.
See this is what I was thinking, but I wasn't 120 percent positive , so I didn't say anything.
I just like to read and learn most of the time
Requiring the ball to reformat a dense fuel stream into a combustible (atomized) state results in nailing, and is why these engines rattle so much when the injectors are worn. When fuel in injected in a dense stream it will not burn cleanly or at all resulting in a build up of fuel that suddenly becomes burnable after interacting with the swirling hot air and the ball shaft, and it all ignites at once (bang), instead of a progressively burning as it is injected. New injectors generally produce a finer fog of atomized fuel and the engine runs quiet until they start to stream fuel, then the engine gets rattly again...
I see the purpose of the ball shaft differently than most everyone...., I see it as a swirl generator primarily, but it also is able to crutch poor quality nozzles. Different understandings is fine…
06-25-2013, 03:10 PM
#20
(06-25-2013, 01:02 AM)OM616 Requiring the ball to reformat a dense fuel stream into a combustible (atomized) state results in nailing, and is why these engines rattle so much when the injectors are worn. When fuel in injected in a dense stream it will not burn cleanly or at all resulting in a build up of fuel that suddenly becomes burnable after interacting with the swirling hot air and the ball shaft, and it all ignites at once (bang), instead of a progressively burning as it is injected.This is contrary to every thing the impingement ball accomplishes. First off the design of the stream striking the impingement ball was discovered lessen the initial shock from immediate combustion due to injection. The stream of fuel enters the chamber with little surface area and therefore burns a little fuel raising the pressure slowly. Once the stream hits hits the ball only then does the bulk of the fuel burn. This reduces the loud clack of a diesel. Furthermore the impingement ball burns most of the fuel away from the walls of the prechamber so less energy is lost to the cooling system and provides turbulence for mixing the fuel with the air to promote better combustion.
I believe this is all documented in an SAE paper do by Merecedes Benz.
Quote: New injectors generally produce a finer fog of atomized fuel and the engine runs quiet until they start to stream fuel, then the engine gets rattly again...
I see the purpose of the ball shaft differently than most everyone...., I see it as a swirl generator primarily, but it also is able to crutch poor quality nozzles. Different understandings is fine…
Actually new injectors tend to produce several streams and multiple pulses to control the pressure rate rise to better approximate the diesel cycle. Fine atomization all at once is what will produce nailing.
(06-25-2013, 01:02 AM)OM616 Requiring the ball to reformat a dense fuel stream into a combustible (atomized) state results in nailing, and is why these engines rattle so much when the injectors are worn. When fuel in injected in a dense stream it will not burn cleanly or at all resulting in a build up of fuel that suddenly becomes burnable after interacting with the swirling hot air and the ball shaft, and it all ignites at once (bang), instead of a progressively burning as it is injected.This is contrary to every thing the impingement ball accomplishes. First off the design of the stream striking the impingement ball was discovered lessen the initial shock from immediate combustion due to injection. The stream of fuel enters the chamber with little surface area and therefore burns a little fuel raising the pressure slowly. Once the stream hits hits the ball only then does the bulk of the fuel burn. This reduces the loud clack of a diesel. Furthermore the impingement ball burns most of the fuel away from the walls of the prechamber so less energy is lost to the cooling system and provides turbulence for mixing the fuel with the air to promote better combustion.
I believe this is all documented in an SAE paper do by Merecedes Benz.
Quote: New injectors generally produce a finer fog of atomized fuel and the engine runs quiet until they start to stream fuel, then the engine gets rattly again...
I see the purpose of the ball shaft differently than most everyone...., I see it as a swirl generator primarily, but it also is able to crutch poor quality nozzles. Different understandings is fine…
Actually new injectors tend to produce several streams and multiple pulses to control the pressure rate rise to better approximate the diesel cycle. Fine atomization all at once is what will produce nailing.
06-25-2013, 03:35 PM
#21
(06-25-2013, 03:10 PM)ConnClark This is contrary to every thing the impingement ball accomplishes. First off the design of the stream striking the impingement ball was discovered lessen the initial shock from immediate combustion due to injection. The stream of fuel enters the chamber with little surface area and therefore burns a little fuel raising the pressure slowly. Once the stream hits hits the ball only then does the bulk of the fuel burn. This reduces the loud clack of a diesel. Furthermore the impingement ball burns most of the fuel away from the walls of the prechamber so less energy is lost to the cooling system and provides turbulence for mixing the fuel with the air to promote better combustion.
I believe this is all documented in an SAE paper do by Merecedes Benz.
Actually new injectors tend to produce several streams and multiple pulses to control the pressure rate rise to better approximate the diesel cycle. Fine atomization all at once is what will produce nailing.
I have read the ASE paper and all... We will have to respectfully disagree then.. All good... Right or wrong, I have not interest in arguing at all. As I said, I am not a "MB made it the best it can be" guy.
Much the same was said about enlarging the Prechamber burn holes, SAE papers were sighted as well...... Several of us have done it with good results....
Many said that the 10mm elements were too big for these little engines... Dieselmeken has built an M pump that will put out almost 300cc/K revs @ 6000 Engine RPM. There will always be naysayers... referencing some document that supports the idea that is in question... The earth was flat too at one point... not to mention if we ever did go to the moon...
(06-25-2013, 03:10 PM)ConnClark This is contrary to every thing the impingement ball accomplishes. First off the design of the stream striking the impingement ball was discovered lessen the initial shock from immediate combustion due to injection. The stream of fuel enters the chamber with little surface area and therefore burns a little fuel raising the pressure slowly. Once the stream hits hits the ball only then does the bulk of the fuel burn. This reduces the loud clack of a diesel. Furthermore the impingement ball burns most of the fuel away from the walls of the prechamber so less energy is lost to the cooling system and provides turbulence for mixing the fuel with the air to promote better combustion.
I believe this is all documented in an SAE paper do by Merecedes Benz.
Actually new injectors tend to produce several streams and multiple pulses to control the pressure rate rise to better approximate the diesel cycle. Fine atomization all at once is what will produce nailing.
I have read the ASE paper and all... We will have to respectfully disagree then.. All good... Right or wrong, I have not interest in arguing at all. As I said, I am not a "MB made it the best it can be" guy.
Much the same was said about enlarging the Prechamber burn holes, SAE papers were sighted as well...... Several of us have done it with good results....
Many said that the 10mm elements were too big for these little engines... Dieselmeken has built an M pump that will put out almost 300cc/K revs @ 6000 Engine RPM. There will always be naysayers... referencing some document that supports the idea that is in question... The earth was flat too at one point... not to mention if we ever did go to the moon...
06-25-2013, 03:48 PM
#22
EDIT:
The mod will probably make for a rougher ride, but if it puts down more power who cares?
This post was last modified: 06-26-2013, 08:06 AM by Simpler=Better.
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
06-25-2013, 03:48 PM #22You're both right. Also, STD isn't about making an economical, long-lived, quiet, smooth luxury car. It's about making that shit go as fast as possible
EDIT:
The mod will probably make for a rougher ride, but if it puts down more power who cares?
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
06-25-2013, 09:33 PM
#24
Whether you agree with each other or not we can learn from listening to others, take in what you want and disregard the rest respectfully.
I enjoy reading both sides of it!
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I think as long as its a technical discussion, it's all good.
Whether you agree with each other or not we can learn from listening to others, take in what you want and disregard the rest respectfully.
I enjoy reading both sides of it!
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
06-26-2013, 08:44 AM
#25
BTW, without hi-jacking the tread, I got 2 BRAND NEW sets of Bosch 315 nozzles for sale. I am willing to part ways with the service for $229.00 shipped CONUS for a set. Sorry OM616 ...
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
If the scientific papers say one thing ... and us grease monkies and tinkerers actually make and do the opposite and it works, I wonder ...
BTW, without hi-jacking the tread, I got 2 BRAND NEW sets of Bosch 315 nozzles for sale. I am willing to part ways with the service for $229.00 shipped CONUS for a set. Sorry OM616 ...
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
06-26-2013, 11:12 AM
#26
Greazzer, are those nozzles only or whole bodies?
And what the hell does conus mean?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I am going to help derail it.. Haha
Greazzer, are those nozzles only or whole bodies?
And what the hell does conus mean?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
06-26-2013, 11:51 AM
#27
(06-26-2013, 08:44 AM)Greazzer If the scientific papers say one thing ... and us grease monkies and tinkerers actually make and do the opposite and it works, I wonder ...
BTW, without hi-jacking the tread, I got 2 BRAND NEW sets of Bosch 315 nozzles for sale. I am willing to part ways with the service for $229.00 shipped CONUS for a set. Sorry OM616 ...
Hi-jack away LOL... It was getting tense in here anyway, a change that stays with in the original topic is fine with me.
Update on my quest for a custom nozzle… The first manufacturer was more into producing large quantities of them and not prototypes, so I have contacted another place that advertises custom nozzles and samples to test… sent them an e-mail, haven’t heard back yet… I have a feeling they are going to be way too expensive..
(06-26-2013, 08:44 AM)Greazzer If the scientific papers say one thing ... and us grease monkies and tinkerers actually make and do the opposite and it works, I wonder ...
BTW, without hi-jacking the tread, I got 2 BRAND NEW sets of Bosch 315 nozzles for sale. I am willing to part ways with the service for $229.00 shipped CONUS for a set. Sorry OM616 ...
Hi-jack away LOL... It was getting tense in here anyway, a change that stays with in the original topic is fine with me.
Update on my quest for a custom nozzle… The first manufacturer was more into producing large quantities of them and not prototypes, so I have contacted another place that advertises custom nozzles and samples to test… sent them an e-mail, haven’t heard back yet… I have a feeling they are going to be way too expensive..
06-26-2013, 11:56 AM
#28
(06-25-2013, 03:48 PM)Simpler=Better You're both right. Also, STD isn't about making an economical, long-lived, quiet, smooth luxury car. It's about making that shit go as fast as possibleJust remember a loud diesel clack does nothing to move your car down the road (in fact it steals power). It only increases the chances of a blown head gasket, thrown rod, or other damage.
EDIT:
The mod will probably make for a rougher ride, but if it puts down more power who cares?
(06-26-2013, 11:12 AM)MFSuper90 I am going to help derail it.. Haha
I'll drink to that
http://youtu.be/ACgJhE2L7Ms?t=46s
This post was last modified: 06-26-2013, 11:58 AM by ConnClark.
(06-25-2013, 03:48 PM)Simpler=Better You're both right. Also, STD isn't about making an economical, long-lived, quiet, smooth luxury car. It's about making that shit go as fast as possibleJust remember a loud diesel clack does nothing to move your car down the road (in fact it steals power). It only increases the chances of a blown head gasket, thrown rod, or other damage.
EDIT:
The mod will probably make for a rougher ride, but if it puts down more power who cares?
(06-26-2013, 11:12 AM)MFSuper90 I am going to help derail it.. Haha
I'll drink to that
http://youtu.be/ACgJhE2L7Ms?t=46s
06-26-2013, 12:16 PM
#29
(06-26-2013, 11:56 AM)ConnClark(06-25-2013, 03:48 PM)Simpler=Better You're both right. Also, STD isn't about making an economical, long-lived, quiet, smooth luxury car. It's about making that shit go as fast as possibleJust remember a loud diesel clack does nothing to move your car down the road (in fact it steals power). It only increases the chances of a blown head gasket, thrown rod, or other damage.
EDIT:
The mod will probably make for a rougher ride, but if it puts down more power who cares?
(06-26-2013, 11:12 AM)MFSuper90 I am going to help derail it.. Haha
I'll drink to that
http://youtu.be/ACgJhE2L7Ms?t=46s
Well the prechamber mods have not blown up engines yet, only improved performance, and as I recall you were one of the loud voices sighting the ASE paper on that one, saying that I was wrong in my thinking and foretelling prophesies of destruction...
I agree with Greazzer's thought... so far I'm ahead by one... If I can get some nozzles made to go with my 10mm elements, we will see what the score is with this one...
(06-26-2013, 11:56 AM)ConnClark(06-25-2013, 03:48 PM)Simpler=Better You're both right. Also, STD isn't about making an economical, long-lived, quiet, smooth luxury car. It's about making that shit go as fast as possibleJust remember a loud diesel clack does nothing to move your car down the road (in fact it steals power). It only increases the chances of a blown head gasket, thrown rod, or other damage.
EDIT:
The mod will probably make for a rougher ride, but if it puts down more power who cares?
(06-26-2013, 11:12 AM)MFSuper90 I am going to help derail it.. Haha
I'll drink to that
http://youtu.be/ACgJhE2L7Ms?t=46s
Well the prechamber mods have not blown up engines yet, only improved performance, and as I recall you were one of the loud voices sighting the ASE paper on that one, saying that I was wrong in my thinking and foretelling prophesies of destruction...
I agree with Greazzer's thought... so far I'm ahead by one... If I can get some nozzles made to go with my 10mm elements, we will see what the score is with this one...
06-26-2013, 12:23 PM
#30
(06-26-2013, 12:16 PM)OM616(06-26-2013, 11:56 AM)ConnClark(06-25-2013, 03:48 PM)Simpler=Better You're both right. Also, STD isn't about making an economical, long-lived, quiet, smooth luxury car. It's about making that shit go as fast as possibleJust remember a loud diesel clack does nothing to move your car down the road (in fact it steals power). It only increases the chances of a blown head gasket, thrown rod, or other damage.
EDIT:
The mod will probably make for a rougher ride, but if it puts down more power who cares?
(06-26-2013, 11:12 AM)MFSuper90 I am going to help derail it.. Haha
I'll drink to that
http://youtu.be/ACgJhE2L7Ms?t=46s
Well the prechamber mods have not blown up engines yet, only improved performance, and as I recall you were one of the loud voices sighting the ASE paper on that one, saying that I was wrong in my thinking and foretelling prophesies of destruction...
I agree with Greazzer's thought... so far I'm ahead by one... If I can get some nozzles made to go with my 10mm elements, we will see what the score is with this one...
If you got an up and running engine, I can send you some 315's as loaners for some R&D. As long as you promise their return. They would be brand new. I am trying to sell one set and I can loan you the other for your R&D. Just let me know.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
(06-26-2013, 12:16 PM)OM616(06-26-2013, 11:56 AM)ConnClark(06-25-2013, 03:48 PM)Simpler=Better You're both right. Also, STD isn't about making an economical, long-lived, quiet, smooth luxury car. It's about making that shit go as fast as possibleJust remember a loud diesel clack does nothing to move your car down the road (in fact it steals power). It only increases the chances of a blown head gasket, thrown rod, or other damage.
EDIT:
The mod will probably make for a rougher ride, but if it puts down more power who cares?
(06-26-2013, 11:12 AM)MFSuper90 I am going to help derail it.. Haha
I'll drink to that
http://youtu.be/ACgJhE2L7Ms?t=46s
Well the prechamber mods have not blown up engines yet, only improved performance, and as I recall you were one of the loud voices sighting the ASE paper on that one, saying that I was wrong in my thinking and foretelling prophesies of destruction...
I agree with Greazzer's thought... so far I'm ahead by one... If I can get some nozzles made to go with my 10mm elements, we will see what the score is with this one...
If you got an up and running engine, I can send you some 315's as loaners for some R&D. As long as you promise their return. They would be brand new. I am trying to sell one set and I can loan you the other for your R&D. Just let me know.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
06-26-2013, 12:31 PM
#31
(06-26-2013, 12:23 PM)Greazzer If you got an up and running engine, I can send you some 315's as loaners for some R&D. As long as you promise their return. They would be brand new. I am trying to sell one set and I can loan you the other for your R&D. Just let me know.
I think you are addressing MFsuper90?? I have mine, just want to get the EGT gauge in before I run the 315s.
(06-26-2013, 12:23 PM)Greazzer If you got an up and running engine, I can send you some 315's as loaners for some R&D. As long as you promise their return. They would be brand new. I am trying to sell one set and I can loan you the other for your R&D. Just let me know.
I think you are addressing MFsuper90?? I have mine, just want to get the EGT gauge in before I run the 315s.
06-26-2013, 12:54 PM
#32
(06-26-2013, 12:16 PM)OM616 Well the prechamber mods have not blown up engines yet, only improved performance, and as I recall you were one of the loud voices sighting the ASE paper on that one, saying that I was wrong in my thinking and foretelling prophesies of destruction...
I never foretold destruction on that. I did however state you were wrong. Also there is no shred of real proof that it did actually improve things and that it isn't just wishful thinking.
I'll have more faith in data from people with data from an engine dyno over someone with a butt dyno any day.
(06-26-2013, 12:16 PM)OM616 Well the prechamber mods have not blown up engines yet, only improved performance, and as I recall you were one of the loud voices sighting the ASE paper on that one, saying that I was wrong in my thinking and foretelling prophesies of destruction...
I never foretold destruction on that. I did however state you were wrong. Also there is no shred of real proof that it did actually improve things and that it isn't just wishful thinking.
I'll have more faith in data from people with data from an engine dyno over someone with a butt dyno any day.
06-26-2013, 01:51 PM
#33
(06-26-2013, 12:31 PM)OM616(06-26-2013, 12:23 PM)Greazzer If you got an up and running engine, I can send you some 315's as loaners for some R&D. As long as you promise their return. They would be brand new. I am trying to sell one set and I can loan you the other for your R&D. Just let me know.
I think you are addressing MFsuper90?? I have mine, just want to get the EGT gauge in before I run the 315s.
My bad ... you are correct ... I was actually addressing you. Sorry. LOL.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
(06-26-2013, 12:31 PM)OM616(06-26-2013, 12:23 PM)Greazzer If you got an up and running engine, I can send you some 315's as loaners for some R&D. As long as you promise their return. They would be brand new. I am trying to sell one set and I can loan you the other for your R&D. Just let me know.
I think you are addressing MFsuper90?? I have mine, just want to get the EGT gauge in before I run the 315s.
My bad ... you are correct ... I was actually addressing you. Sorry. LOL.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
06-26-2013, 03:35 PM
#34
(06-26-2013, 12:54 PM)ConnClark I'll have more faith in data from people with data from an engine dyno over someone with a butt dyno any day.
Then I guess it is a good thing that we do not need your permission to go against MB or ASE.... LOL
It is true, that where there is a vacuum, someone always is itching to fill the void..
(06-26-2013, 12:54 PM)ConnClark I'll have more faith in data from people with data from an engine dyno over someone with a butt dyno any day.
Then I guess it is a good thing that we do not need your permission to go against MB or ASE.... LOL
It is true, that where there is a vacuum, someone always is itching to fill the void..
06-26-2013, 04:12 PM
#35
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
Careful, careful ... there was a former forum member, now banned on most MB sites, who knew every single thing about MB's and he could post rather quickly some sort of text or FSM or something to prove his point ... Unfortunately for him, I tackled a few of his so called "it's impossible, not doable ... and you're a dumbo for trying ... " First, the correct MB (#49) battery in a battery box in the trunk on the right hand side pocket (could be left since the pockets are the same size). That was taboo at the time, but it clearly fits in a somewhat oversized box and the box fits nicely. I got a bunch of pictures to prove that. Same with WVO, which is hated everywhere. The point is give something a try and post your results. That is why this is a great forum. We all do mod's at our own peril. Obviously, don't post someting which will destroy one's car with commentary how great a mod it is. But, if you stumble into something cool, post it and do so even it's contrary to all the experts out there.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
06-26-2013, 11:22 PM
#36
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Greazzer I am going to pm you soon about nozzles. Just got my head done, and it told me it wants some 315s in it
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
06-26-2013, 11:51 PM
#37
Here is a link to the artical, the nozzle portion starts at PG 49 I think.....http://www.scribd.com/doc/60571126/6/Nozzles-and-nozzle-holders
Here is what I managed to bring over;
Throttling pintle nozzles.
The standard nozzle-and-holder assembly for prechamber and turbulence(swirl) chamber engines is composed of the injection nozzle (Type DN..SOH) together with the nozzle holder (Type KCA with screw-in thread).
The normal version of this nozzle holder has an M24x2 screw-in thread and an NF dimension of 27mm. Usually, DN0SD..injection nozzles are used which have a needle diameter of 6mm and a spray angle of 0°(pencil spray). It is much rarer to find an injector nozzle with a defined spray angle (e.g.,12°in the ON12SO.,). For restricted cylinder-head space, more compact nozzle-holder versions (e.g.,KCE) are available.
One of the characteristic features of the throttling pintle nozzle is the control of its discharge cross section, in other words the through flow quantity, as a direct function of the needle lift. Where as in the case of the hole-type nozzle the cross-section increasess harply as soon as the needle opens, the throttling pintle nozzle features a very flat cross-section characteristic in the range of small needle strokes. In this range, the throttling pintle, a pin shaped extension of the nozzle needle, remains inside the spray hole and only the small ring-shaped area between the spray hole.
When large needle strokes take place, the pintle lifts out of the spray hole completely and the flow crosssection increases rapidly (Fig.1). To a certain degree, this change in cross section as a function of needle stroke controls the rate-of-injection curve, in other words the injected fuel quantity per unit of time. At the start of injection only a small quantity of fuel can leave the nozzle, while a large quantity emerges at the end of the injection process. Above all,this characteristic has apositive effect on engine combustion noise. It must be noted that if the cross section values are too small there is insufficient needle lift, the injection pump accelerates the needle in the "open" direction more quickly than would otherwise be the case, and the pintle leaves the spray hole sooner thus terminating the throttling action more quickly. The injected fuel quantity per unit of time climbs rapidly as a result and combustion noise increases. Excessively small crosssections at the end of injection have a similar negative effect, because when the needle closes again, the displaced fuel has difficulty in leaving through the restricted crosssection, with the attendant end-of-injection delay. It is therefore important to match the cross-section characteristic to the the rate-Of-discharge curve and to the particular combustion process.
I found an artical that talks about nozzle size, pintle lift, and rates of delivery. I tried to copy and paste it, but it did not come over nicely, I had to do a lot of fooling with it to get it to read some what normal.
Here is a link to the artical, the nozzle portion starts at PG 49 I think.....http://www.scribd.com/doc/60571126/6/Nozzles-and-nozzle-holders
Here is what I managed to bring over;
Throttling pintle nozzles.
The standard nozzle-and-holder assembly for prechamber and turbulence(swirl) chamber engines is composed of the injection nozzle (Type DN..SOH) together with the nozzle holder (Type KCA with screw-in thread).
The normal version of this nozzle holder has an M24x2 screw-in thread and an NF dimension of 27mm. Usually, DN0SD..injection nozzles are used which have a needle diameter of 6mm and a spray angle of 0°(pencil spray). It is much rarer to find an injector nozzle with a defined spray angle (e.g.,12°in the ON12SO.,). For restricted cylinder-head space, more compact nozzle-holder versions (e.g.,KCE) are available.
One of the characteristic features of the throttling pintle nozzle is the control of its discharge cross section, in other words the through flow quantity, as a direct function of the needle lift. Where as in the case of the hole-type nozzle the cross-section increasess harply as soon as the needle opens, the throttling pintle nozzle features a very flat cross-section characteristic in the range of small needle strokes. In this range, the throttling pintle, a pin shaped extension of the nozzle needle, remains inside the spray hole and only the small ring-shaped area between the spray hole.
When large needle strokes take place, the pintle lifts out of the spray hole completely and the flow crosssection increases rapidly (Fig.1). To a certain degree, this change in cross section as a function of needle stroke controls the rate-of-injection curve, in other words the injected fuel quantity per unit of time. At the start of injection only a small quantity of fuel can leave the nozzle, while a large quantity emerges at the end of the injection process. Above all,this characteristic has apositive effect on engine combustion noise. It must be noted that if the cross section values are too small there is insufficient needle lift, the injection pump accelerates the needle in the "open" direction more quickly than would otherwise be the case, and the pintle leaves the spray hole sooner thus terminating the throttling action more quickly. The injected fuel quantity per unit of time climbs rapidly as a result and combustion noise increases. Excessively small crosssections at the end of injection have a similar negative effect, because when the needle closes again, the displaced fuel has difficulty in leaving through the restricted crosssection, with the attendant end-of-injection delay. It is therefore important to match the cross-section characteristic to the the rate-Of-discharge curve and to the particular combustion process.
06-27-2013, 06:06 AM
#38
(06-26-2013, 11:12 AM)MFSuper90 And what the hell does conus mean?
contiguous or continental US..so no Hawaii or Alaska
.
500SEC euro gen II powered by OM617a stolen from 84 300SD .... with 280se transmission now
----------------------------------------------------------
.
06-27-2013, 12:50 PM
#39
(06-27-2013, 06:06 AM)cho(06-26-2013, 11:12 AM)MFSuper90 And what the hell does conus mean?
contiguous or continental US..so no Hawaii or Alaska
.
It's kinda sad that someone from Europe had to explain that to me... Haha
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(06-27-2013, 06:06 AM)cho(06-26-2013, 11:12 AM)MFSuper90 And what the hell does conus mean?
contiguous or continental US..so no Hawaii or Alaska
.
It's kinda sad that someone from Europe had to explain that to me... Haha
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
06-27-2013, 12:55 PM
#40
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
My bad for not spelling it out ...and Cho is 100% on it ... CONUS = Continental United States.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
06-27-2013, 03:21 PM
#42
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
Yes, made by the French in France. These are Bosch ... and made prior to the mass exodus to India where most Bosch injectors are now made. Not bashing the quality or venue, just pointing it out since folks do have their preferances.
Ninth Year Anniversary with STD on 1-9-2020
visit: www.dieselfuelinjector.guru
Project 2018: Really get the car finished -- Turbo OM617 greater than 175 MPH goal.
RED W123 - left Germany as 240D in 1982. Full AMG body kit less rear apron, 2:65LSD, five speed Getrag 717.400, manual steering, read leather interior, manual brake conversion, electric water pump (EWP), and a bunch of other goodies ...
07-01-2013, 12:13 PM
#43
So.... no one to the hard way lol...
I will have the nozzle I used for hardness testing wire edm-ed in half and scanned to pull the geometry from it, and have the pintle scanned as well.
The plan is looking toward increasing the orifice in the nozzle, and making a new pintle that is properly sized to go with the larger nozzle orifice.
After talking with several nozzle manufacturers and performance nozzle places, no one is interested in the pintle type nozzle, they only will work with the hole type.
So.... no one to the hard way lol...
I will have the nozzle I used for hardness testing wire edm-ed in half and scanned to pull the geometry from it, and have the pintle scanned as well.
The plan is looking toward increasing the orifice in the nozzle, and making a new pintle that is properly sized to go with the larger nozzle orifice.
07-01-2013, 03:12 PM
#44
"Although atomization of the fuel is not so complete in the pintle nozzle as it is in the hole nozzle, penetration into the combustion space is greater" so why is it so desirable?
(07-01-2013, 12:13 PM)OM616 After talking with several nozzle manufacturers and performance nozzle places, no one is interested in the pintle type nozzle, they only will work with the hole type.
So.... no one to the hard way lol...
I will have the nozzle I used for hardness testing wire edm-ed in half and scanned to pull the geometry from it, and have the pintle scanned as well.
The plan is looking toward increasing the orifice in the nozzle, and making a new pintle that is properly sized to go with the larger nozzle orifice.
stupid question since this not really my area...
"Although atomization of the fuel is not so complete in the pintle nozzle as it is in the hole nozzle, penetration into the combustion space is greater" so why is it so desirable?
(07-01-2013, 12:13 PM)OM616 After talking with several nozzle manufacturers and performance nozzle places, no one is interested in the pintle type nozzle, they only will work with the hole type.
So.... no one to the hard way lol...
I will have the nozzle I used for hardness testing wire edm-ed in half and scanned to pull the geometry from it, and have the pintle scanned as well.
The plan is looking toward increasing the orifice in the nozzle, and making a new pintle that is properly sized to go with the larger nozzle orifice.
07-01-2013, 06:03 PM
#45
(07-01-2013, 03:12 PM)Turbo stupid question since this not really my area...
"Although atomization of the fuel is not so complete in the pintle nozzle as it is in the hole nozzle, penetration into the combustion space is greater" so why is it so desirable?
Actually not a stupid question at all...
A lot depends on the geometry and size of the combustion chamber, in that, in order to get good combustion, a proper amount of "air", (for the sake of conversation), is needed. Unlike a carbureted gasoline engine that mixes the fuel with the incoming air charge and then ignites that mixture where the flame front travels throughout the combustion chamber, the diesel engine injects fuel from one location in the combustion chamber into as pure of an air charge as possible.
Diesel ignition timing is set by the start of injection into the combustion chamber. A controlled progressive flame front is desired is any engine, and when the fuel is injected into the hot air, it ignites as soon as it hits the hot air, starting the flame front. The problem is (to exaggerate this lets say that there is no swirling going on), the initial burning fuel used up the air close to the injector, so the fuel leaving the injector after the initial injection needs to find more unused air in order to be able to ignite. (this one reason why a strong swirl is desired, as the used air in front of the nozzle is replaced by un used air, the fuel can be ignited right as it is injected).
A fine mist or cloud type spray is made up of very little particles of fuel, that by them selves have very little mass, and therefore very little inertia, so the particles of fuel do not want to travel very far from the nozzle. With a denser fuel spray, the larger fuel particles have more mass and will travel farther away from the injector. This is great for distributing fuel throughout the combustion chamber, but the larger fuel particles take time to brake up into an ignitable condition, and if that process takes too long, (the fuel spray is too dense, as in a stream of fuel), then a build up of fuel will be created very quickly, and when it flashes, a loud bang is heard, (nailing).
My understanding is that MB angled the injector in the 60X engines in order to use the velocity of the injection it self to help generate a stronger swirl in the prechamber. This stronger swirl will help keep the combustion conditions in front of the nozzle as good as possible, and there for enabling a finer spray to be injected that will burn sooner upon injection (quieter), and more completely (cleaner emissions). From what I have found out about the 314 nozzle, is that they added a diffuser to the nozzle outlet that would generate a little turbulence at the nozzle tip, which would help brake up the fuel into finer pieces and fan it out a little better. The goal being quieter and cleaner combustion.
A pintle nozzle spray pattern will never be like a hole type nozzle, as by their very nature, the two types of nozzles are totally different. The problem that I am concerned with, and is stated in the article I found is, when the rate of delivery exceeds the capability of the nozzle with the pintle remaining in a throttling position, the pintle is pushed out of the nozzle orifice, and what is created is basically an open hole with fuel flowing out. Now granted that at that point the fuel is being pushed out at a much higher pressure than would be present under delivery rates with in the calibration of the nozzle, and this higher pressure may or may not help to make up for the “open hole”.
The reality is that the stock nozzle will pass the fuel at tremendously higher rates than it was intended to, and it does this by the pintle lifting out of the hole. The relationship between the pintle geometry, the nozzle orifice geometry, and the injection pressure control/determine the cone or spray pattern. There is no argument that in order to pass X amount of fuel over X time at X pressure, you need Y area for the fuel to pass through. My goal is to have the nozzle and pintle sized such that at Y area, the pintle is still in the nozzle orifice in a “throttling” position. This will minimize the pintle travel at the highest fuel delivery rates, which will support better end of injection stability with lower displacement Delivery valves, resulting in more of the element stroke injecting fuel, increasing the useable fuel quantity.
Now at smaller delivered quantities, the larger nozzle will be able to pass the fuel by only barley moving the pintle, creating a higher frequency chatter. This higher frequency chatter should create a finer fuel pattern than OEM pintle nozzles, but not like the hole type nozzles. Another way to say it is that the OEM pintle nozzles are very crude, simple, but crude.
(07-01-2013, 03:12 PM)Turbo stupid question since this not really my area...
"Although atomization of the fuel is not so complete in the pintle nozzle as it is in the hole nozzle, penetration into the combustion space is greater" so why is it so desirable?
Actually not a stupid question at all...
A lot depends on the geometry and size of the combustion chamber, in that, in order to get good combustion, a proper amount of "air", (for the sake of conversation), is needed. Unlike a carbureted gasoline engine that mixes the fuel with the incoming air charge and then ignites that mixture where the flame front travels throughout the combustion chamber, the diesel engine injects fuel from one location in the combustion chamber into as pure of an air charge as possible.
Diesel ignition timing is set by the start of injection into the combustion chamber. A controlled progressive flame front is desired is any engine, and when the fuel is injected into the hot air, it ignites as soon as it hits the hot air, starting the flame front. The problem is (to exaggerate this lets say that there is no swirling going on), the initial burning fuel used up the air close to the injector, so the fuel leaving the injector after the initial injection needs to find more unused air in order to be able to ignite. (this one reason why a strong swirl is desired, as the used air in front of the nozzle is replaced by un used air, the fuel can be ignited right as it is injected).
A fine mist or cloud type spray is made up of very little particles of fuel, that by them selves have very little mass, and therefore very little inertia, so the particles of fuel do not want to travel very far from the nozzle. With a denser fuel spray, the larger fuel particles have more mass and will travel farther away from the injector. This is great for distributing fuel throughout the combustion chamber, but the larger fuel particles take time to brake up into an ignitable condition, and if that process takes too long, (the fuel spray is too dense, as in a stream of fuel), then a build up of fuel will be created very quickly, and when it flashes, a loud bang is heard, (nailing).
My understanding is that MB angled the injector in the 60X engines in order to use the velocity of the injection it self to help generate a stronger swirl in the prechamber. This stronger swirl will help keep the combustion conditions in front of the nozzle as good as possible, and there for enabling a finer spray to be injected that will burn sooner upon injection (quieter), and more completely (cleaner emissions). From what I have found out about the 314 nozzle, is that they added a diffuser to the nozzle outlet that would generate a little turbulence at the nozzle tip, which would help brake up the fuel into finer pieces and fan it out a little better. The goal being quieter and cleaner combustion.
A pintle nozzle spray pattern will never be like a hole type nozzle, as by their very nature, the two types of nozzles are totally different. The problem that I am concerned with, and is stated in the article I found is, when the rate of delivery exceeds the capability of the nozzle with the pintle remaining in a throttling position, the pintle is pushed out of the nozzle orifice, and what is created is basically an open hole with fuel flowing out. Now granted that at that point the fuel is being pushed out at a much higher pressure than would be present under delivery rates with in the calibration of the nozzle, and this higher pressure may or may not help to make up for the “open hole”.
The reality is that the stock nozzle will pass the fuel at tremendously higher rates than it was intended to, and it does this by the pintle lifting out of the hole. The relationship between the pintle geometry, the nozzle orifice geometry, and the injection pressure control/determine the cone or spray pattern. There is no argument that in order to pass X amount of fuel over X time at X pressure, you need Y area for the fuel to pass through. My goal is to have the nozzle and pintle sized such that at Y area, the pintle is still in the nozzle orifice in a “throttling” position. This will minimize the pintle travel at the highest fuel delivery rates, which will support better end of injection stability with lower displacement Delivery valves, resulting in more of the element stroke injecting fuel, increasing the useable fuel quantity.
Now at smaller delivered quantities, the larger nozzle will be able to pass the fuel by only barley moving the pintle, creating a higher frequency chatter. This higher frequency chatter should create a finer fuel pattern than OEM pintle nozzles, but not like the hole type nozzles. Another way to say it is that the OEM pintle nozzles are very crude, simple, but crude.
07-18-2013, 12:13 AM
#46
(07-01-2013, 06:03 PM)OM616(07-01-2013, 03:12 PM)Turbo stupid question since this not really my area...
"Although atomization of the fuel is not so complete in the pintle nozzle as it is in the hole nozzle, penetration into the combustion space is greater" so why is it so desirable?
Actually not a stupid question at all...
A lot depends on the geometry and size of the combustion chamber, in that, in order to get good combustion, a proper amount of "air", (for the sake of conversation), is needed. Unlike a carbureted gasoline engine that mixes the fuel with the incoming air charge and then ignites that mixture where the flame front travels throughout the combustion chamber, the diesel engine injects fuel from one location in the combustion chamber into as pure of an air charge as possible.
Diesel ignition timing is set by the start of injection into the combustion chamber. A controlled progressive flame front is desired is any engine, and when the fuel is injected into the hot air, it ignites as soon as it hits the hot air, starting the flame front. The problem is (to exaggerate this lets say that there is no swirling going on), the initial burning fuel used up the air close to the injector, so the fuel leaving the injector after the initial injection needs to find more unused air in order to be able to ignite. (this one reason why a strong swirl is desired, as the used air in front of the nozzle is replaced by un used air, the fuel can be ignited right as it is injected).
A fine mist or cloud type spray is made up of very little particles of fuel, that by them selves have very little mass, and therefore very little inertia, so the particles of fuel do not want to travel very far from the nozzle. With a denser fuel spray, the larger fuel particles have more mass and will travel farther away from the injector. This is great for distributing fuel throughout the combustion chamber, but the larger fuel particles take time to brake up into an ignitable condition, and if that process takes too long, (the fuel spray is too dense, as in a stream of fuel), then a build up of fuel will be created very quickly, and when it flashes, a loud bang is heard, (nailing).
My understanding is that MB angled the injector in the 60X engines in order to use the velocity of the injection it self to help generate a stronger swirl in the prechamber. This stronger swirl will help keep the combustion conditions in front of the nozzle as good as possible, and there for enabling a finer spray to be injected that will burn sooner upon injection (quieter), and more completely (cleaner emissions). From what I have found out about the 314 nozzle, is that they added a diffuser to the nozzle outlet that would generate a little turbulence at the nozzle tip, which would help brake up the fuel into finer pieces and fan it out a little better. The goal being quieter and cleaner combustion.
A pintle nozzle spray pattern will never be like a hole type nozzle, as by their very nature, the two types of nozzles are totally different. The problem that I am concerned with, and is stated in the article I found is, when the rate of delivery exceeds the capability of the nozzle with the pintle remaining in a throttling position, the pintle is pushed out of the nozzle orifice, and what is created is basically an open hole with fuel flowing out. Now granted that at that point the fuel is being pushed out at a much higher pressure than would be present under delivery rates with in the calibration of the nozzle, and this higher pressure may or may not help to make up for the “open hole”.
The reality is that the stock nozzle will pass the fuel at tremendously higher rates than it was intended to, and it does this by the pintle lifting out of the hole. The relationship between the pintle geometry, the nozzle orifice geometry, and the injection pressure control/determine the cone or spray pattern. There is no argument that in order to pass X amount of fuel over X time at X pressure, you need Y area for the fuel to pass through. My goal is to have the nozzle and pintle sized such that at Y area, the pintle is still in the nozzle orifice in a “throttling” position. This will minimize the pintle travel at the highest fuel delivery rates, which will support better end of injection stability with lower displacement Delivery valves, resulting in more of the element stroke injecting fuel, increasing the useable fuel quantity.
Now at smaller delivered quantities, the larger nozzle will be able to pass the fuel by only barley moving the pintle, creating a higher frequency chatter. This higher frequency chatter should create a finer fuel pattern than OEM pintle nozzles, but not like the hole type nozzles. Another way to say it is that the OEM pintle nozzles are very crude, simple, but crude.
tinchariot
07-18-2013, 12:13 AM #46(07-01-2013, 06:03 PM)OM616(07-01-2013, 03:12 PM)Turbo stupid question since this not really my area...
"Although atomization of the fuel is not so complete in the pintle nozzle as it is in the hole nozzle, penetration into the combustion space is greater" so why is it so desirable?
Actually not a stupid question at all...
A lot depends on the geometry and size of the combustion chamber, in that, in order to get good combustion, a proper amount of "air", (for the sake of conversation), is needed. Unlike a carbureted gasoline engine that mixes the fuel with the incoming air charge and then ignites that mixture where the flame front travels throughout the combustion chamber, the diesel engine injects fuel from one location in the combustion chamber into as pure of an air charge as possible.
Diesel ignition timing is set by the start of injection into the combustion chamber. A controlled progressive flame front is desired is any engine, and when the fuel is injected into the hot air, it ignites as soon as it hits the hot air, starting the flame front. The problem is (to exaggerate this lets say that there is no swirling going on), the initial burning fuel used up the air close to the injector, so the fuel leaving the injector after the initial injection needs to find more unused air in order to be able to ignite. (this one reason why a strong swirl is desired, as the used air in front of the nozzle is replaced by un used air, the fuel can be ignited right as it is injected).
A fine mist or cloud type spray is made up of very little particles of fuel, that by them selves have very little mass, and therefore very little inertia, so the particles of fuel do not want to travel very far from the nozzle. With a denser fuel spray, the larger fuel particles have more mass and will travel farther away from the injector. This is great for distributing fuel throughout the combustion chamber, but the larger fuel particles take time to brake up into an ignitable condition, and if that process takes too long, (the fuel spray is too dense, as in a stream of fuel), then a build up of fuel will be created very quickly, and when it flashes, a loud bang is heard, (nailing).
My understanding is that MB angled the injector in the 60X engines in order to use the velocity of the injection it self to help generate a stronger swirl in the prechamber. This stronger swirl will help keep the combustion conditions in front of the nozzle as good as possible, and there for enabling a finer spray to be injected that will burn sooner upon injection (quieter), and more completely (cleaner emissions). From what I have found out about the 314 nozzle, is that they added a diffuser to the nozzle outlet that would generate a little turbulence at the nozzle tip, which would help brake up the fuel into finer pieces and fan it out a little better. The goal being quieter and cleaner combustion.
A pintle nozzle spray pattern will never be like a hole type nozzle, as by their very nature, the two types of nozzles are totally different. The problem that I am concerned with, and is stated in the article I found is, when the rate of delivery exceeds the capability of the nozzle with the pintle remaining in a throttling position, the pintle is pushed out of the nozzle orifice, and what is created is basically an open hole with fuel flowing out. Now granted that at that point the fuel is being pushed out at a much higher pressure than would be present under delivery rates with in the calibration of the nozzle, and this higher pressure may or may not help to make up for the “open hole”.
The reality is that the stock nozzle will pass the fuel at tremendously higher rates than it was intended to, and it does this by the pintle lifting out of the hole. The relationship between the pintle geometry, the nozzle orifice geometry, and the injection pressure control/determine the cone or spray pattern. There is no argument that in order to pass X amount of fuel over X time at X pressure, you need Y area for the fuel to pass through. My goal is to have the nozzle and pintle sized such that at Y area, the pintle is still in the nozzle orifice in a “throttling” position. This will minimize the pintle travel at the highest fuel delivery rates, which will support better end of injection stability with lower displacement Delivery valves, resulting in more of the element stroke injecting fuel, increasing the useable fuel quantity.
Now at smaller delivered quantities, the larger nozzle will be able to pass the fuel by only barley moving the pintle, creating a higher frequency chatter. This higher frequency chatter should create a finer fuel pattern than OEM pintle nozzles, but not like the hole type nozzles. Another way to say it is that the OEM pintle nozzles are very crude, simple, but crude.
07-18-2013, 07:48 AM
#47
Ed
yankneck696
07-18-2013, 07:48 AM #47OM616, that is so well written that it is scary. I like where you are going with this. For giggles, pull apart an irrigation valve (cheap at home depot) & due to the valve opening system operating similarly, you may get some ideas. Although it uses a solenoid to initiate the opening event, the hydraulics of it work the same as opening the pintle, kinda.... Well, due to the solenoid, it's more of a CR style, but it might give you some ideas...
Ed
07-18-2013, 01:54 PM
#48
(07-18-2013, 07:48 AM)yankneck696 OM616, that is so well written that it is scary. I like where you are going with this. For giggles, pull apart an irrigation valve (cheap at home depot) & due to the valve opening system operating similarly, you may get some ideas. Although it uses a solenoid to initiate the opening event, the hydraulics of it work the same as opening the pintle, kinda.... Well, due to the solenoid, it's more of a CR style, but it might give you some ideas...
Ed
Thanks for the idea and the complement.... I wish I had some extra cash and time throw at projects like this, but I don't lol.... The 315 nozzles should do fine with the 10mm elements given modest delivery settings, but I would like to have a nozzle that was capable of handling higher quintiles and rates.
I am hoping that it is possible to modify a nozzle body and make a new pintle as that would be cheaper than making both. If that is possible, some prototypes could be made on my budget once I have the geometry figured out. I want to get the pump calibration machine done first though, some folks have been very patient with me and I appreciate that.
This post was last modified: 07-18-2013, 02:15 PM by OM616.
Tinchariot, try posting again... you can delete what I wrote to shorten up the post.
(07-18-2013, 07:48 AM)yankneck696 OM616, that is so well written that it is scary. I like where you are going with this. For giggles, pull apart an irrigation valve (cheap at home depot) & due to the valve opening system operating similarly, you may get some ideas. Although it uses a solenoid to initiate the opening event, the hydraulics of it work the same as opening the pintle, kinda.... Well, due to the solenoid, it's more of a CR style, but it might give you some ideas...
Ed
Thanks for the idea and the complement.... I wish I had some extra cash and time throw at projects like this, but I don't lol.... The 315 nozzles should do fine with the 10mm elements given modest delivery settings, but I would like to have a nozzle that was capable of handling higher quintiles and rates.
I am hoping that it is possible to modify a nozzle body and make a new pintle as that would be cheaper than making both. If that is possible, some prototypes could be made on my budget once I have the geometry figured out. I want to get the pump calibration machine done first though, some folks have been very patient with me and I appreciate that.
07-18-2013, 07:31 PM
#49
Ed
yankneck696
07-18-2013, 07:31 PM #49THey would have to be patient. I remember when you announced that you were going to build one. I kinda thought you were kinda crazy. YOU will be the only MW performance pump builder in the US. Most likely it will take quite some time to break even on the venture, but you are still sticking with it.... Got to love expensive hobbies !!! (Kinda like expensive women)
Ed
07-19-2013, 07:54 AM
#50
(07-18-2013, 07:31 PM)yankneck696 THey would have to be patient. I remember when you announced that you were going to build one. I kinda thought you were kinda crazy. YOU will be the only MW performance pump builder in the US. Most likely it will take quite some time to break even on the venture, but you are still sticking with it.... Got to love expensive hobbies !!! (Kinda like expensive women)
Ed
Yarp, and by the time you break even I'll have my engine in something and will finally *need* a pump :p
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
07-19-2013, 07:54 AM #50(07-18-2013, 07:31 PM)yankneck696 THey would have to be patient. I remember when you announced that you were going to build one. I kinda thought you were kinda crazy. YOU will be the only MW performance pump builder in the US. Most likely it will take quite some time to break even on the venture, but you are still sticking with it.... Got to love expensive hobbies !!! (Kinda like expensive women)
Ed
Yarp, and by the time you break even I'll have my engine in something and will finally *need* a pump :p
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
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