Which turbo for maxed out stock pump?
Which turbo for maxed out stock pump?
Mike
"Rusty" 85 300D
So, I have thinking of putting more money into the rest of the car getting it all fixed up instead of so much into the engine and trans for performance (built pump, trans, and so on). I am thinking of having the pump rebuilt and maxed out on the test bench. The injectors would also be rebuilt, all maintenance done, etc. Will the stock turbo support a stock pump that has been maxed out? I am assuming that boost will have to be turned up a bit, and an intercooler will be needed as a result. But, I don't want really high egt's at wot, and a lot of smoke at full boost. Not sure if it will be fine, or if I will need to upgrade just the compressor wheel, or maybe a slightly larger turbo. What have you guys experienced?
Mike
"Rusty" 85 300D
Stock charger is not good. It gets out of its efficiency very quickly at almost any higher boost than stock. I think about 15 is max to stay in the map.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
I really like my hx30, I would definitely do a he221 if I was gonna do it again, but I still love my hx30.
Stock charger is not good. It gets out of its efficiency very quickly at almost any higher boost than stock. I think about 15 is max to stay in the map.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(01-01-2014, 10:26 PM)MFSuper90 I really like my hx30, I would definitely do a he221 if I was gonna do it again, but I still love my hx30.
Stock charger is not good. It gets out of its efficiency very quickly at almost any higher boost than stock. I think about 15 is max to stay in the map.
How do you like your hx30 compared to the stock turbo? How is the off boost response, and spool up time? Did it lower egt's much? Did you have to do any mods to install it?
"Rusty" 85 300D
(01-01-2014, 10:26 PM)MFSuper90 I really like my hx30, I would definitely do a he221 if I was gonna do it again, but I still love my hx30.
Stock charger is not good. It gets out of its efficiency very quickly at almost any higher boost than stock. I think about 15 is max to stay in the map.
How do you like your hx30 compared to the stock turbo? How is the off boost response, and spool up time? Did it lower egt's much? Did you have to do any mods to install it?
"Rusty" 85 300D
Heres my build thread, gives you a couple pictures of how I made everything work, might help answer some questions. Fabricating really wasn't that bad, I had a lot of fun making the pieces to fit and welding and cutting etc..
Build Thread
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Spool up time is slightly slower, but people that don't drive it daily that have driven it before I changed chargers didn't know a difference. They carry close to the same boost at highway speeds, the hx30 actually carries about 1-2psi more.
Heres my build thread, gives you a couple pictures of how I made everything work, might help answer some questions. Fabricating really wasn't that bad, I had a lot of fun making the pieces to fit and welding and cutting etc..
Build Thread
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Just food for thought. I'm in no rush though. Thinking may or June.
" straighten up that star on the grill, assholes."
lgreeley83
01-03-2014, 09:24 AM #6I've got a stock garret with the 60 trim mod that I've just recently starting thinking about upgrading away from. That mod has been done a few times on here. I don't know how much fuel a maxxed out stock IP pushes. I have it next to a Dieselmeken IP and I definitely need more. I think its efficient up to 18psi.
Just food for thought. I'm in no rush though. Thinking may or June.
" straighten up that star on the grill, assholes."
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(01-03-2014, 09:24 AM)lgreeley83 I've got a stock garret with the 60 trim mod that I've just recently starting thinking about upgrading away from. That mod has been done a few times on here. I don't know how much fuel a maxxed out stock IP pushes. I have it next to a Dieselmeken IP and I definitely need more. I think its efficient up to 18psi.
Just food for thought. I'm in no rush though. Thinking may or June.
I will keep that in mind.
(01-03-2014, 03:26 PM)john OT question
How much is a pumprebuild "over there"?
I think it runs between $500-1000usd.
(01-03-2014, 06:40 PM)MFSuper90 If you got any questions about the hx30 route, I'd be happy to try and help out.
The hx30's seem like they are a little hard to find.
It looks like a gt2252, or a gt2554r would be ballpark close. It would be nice to have a turbine map of the stock turbo to help with sizing.
"Rusty" 85 300D
(01-03-2014, 09:24 AM)lgreeley83 I've got a stock garret with the 60 trim mod that I've just recently starting thinking about upgrading away from. That mod has been done a few times on here. I don't know how much fuel a maxxed out stock IP pushes. I have it next to a Dieselmeken IP and I definitely need more. I think its efficient up to 18psi.
Just food for thought. I'm in no rush though. Thinking may or June.
I will keep that in mind.
(01-03-2014, 03:26 PM)john OT question
How much is a pumprebuild "over there"?
I think it runs between $500-1000usd.
(01-03-2014, 06:40 PM)MFSuper90 If you got any questions about the hx30 route, I'd be happy to try and help out.
The hx30's seem like they are a little hard to find.
It looks like a gt2252, or a gt2554r would be ballpark close. It would be nice to have a turbine map of the stock turbo to help with sizing.
"Rusty" 85 300D
http://bit.ly/1bFfLPf
Not sure if that showed up or not, I'm on my phone. But ebay a hx30 and it'll come up.
Also an hx25 on ebay, although I think that would be super fast spooling, top end would suffer greatly
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
Pretty good price for a new one, you'd have to check serial #s to see if it's the bigger wheel though.
http://bit.ly/1bFfLPf
Not sure if that showed up or not, I'm on my phone. But ebay a hx30 and it'll come up.
Also an hx25 on ebay, although I think that would be super fast spooling, top end would suffer greatly
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
... It would be nice to have a turbine map of the stock turbo to help with sizing.
[/quote]
Here is a link to some compressor maps for the Garrett T3 45/50/60 trim wheels. The one on the left is the stock wheel. Going the the 60 trim wheel in a stock 1984 300D, I was seeing 18 psi boost without much trouble and spool-up is about the same as stock - which isn't that great really. I also upgraded the turbine to a stage II wheel. Both housings had to be machined for the new wheels. If you want mainly max output without much concern for increased low end torque then this is a decent way to go. My next step will be installing a cnc billet 60 trim comp wheel - it is lighter and more efficient, hopefully spool-up will be better.
If you are still concerned about driveability and fuel economy, then make sure to check and compensate for chain stretch, advance the injection timing (27 degrees btdc - drip), ream the precup burn holes, etc., etc. A gt2256v will give you great spool-up but will top out sooner and make serious heat at max boost, and require some tuning to get the vane controller to work right. OM616 has put out some great info on how to turn up the MW IP.
![[Image: compressor+maps.jpg]](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WTozfaO2A9o/UUIUbRYteNI/AAAAAAAABsk/mddgAwrTC_4/w702-h345-no/compressor+maps.jpg)
Tom
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
01-04-2014, 06:22 AM #11[/quote]
... It would be nice to have a turbine map of the stock turbo to help with sizing.
[/quote]
Here is a link to some compressor maps for the Garrett T3 45/50/60 trim wheels. The one on the left is the stock wheel. Going the the 60 trim wheel in a stock 1984 300D, I was seeing 18 psi boost without much trouble and spool-up is about the same as stock - which isn't that great really. I also upgraded the turbine to a stage II wheel. Both housings had to be machined for the new wheels. If you want mainly max output without much concern for increased low end torque then this is a decent way to go. My next step will be installing a cnc billet 60 trim comp wheel - it is lighter and more efficient, hopefully spool-up will be better.
If you are still concerned about driveability and fuel economy, then make sure to check and compensate for chain stretch, advance the injection timing (27 degrees btdc - drip), ream the precup burn holes, etc., etc. A gt2256v will give you great spool-up but will top out sooner and make serious heat at max boost, and require some tuning to get the vane controller to work right. OM616 has put out some great info on how to turn up the MW IP.
Tom
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
(01-04-2014, 12:35 AM)MFSuper90 Pretty good price for a new one, you'd have to check serial #s to see if it's the bigger wheel though.
http://bit.ly/1bFfLPf
Not sure if that showed up or not, I'm on my phone. But ebay a hx30 and it'll come up.
Also an hx25 on ebay, although I think that would be super fast spooling, top end would suffer greatly
Nice find! I didn't see that one when I looked. Most of the ones that I found were not a genuine holset. Not sure not how many variations there are of the hx30. Do you know the specs on yours?
... It would be nice to have a turbine map of the stock turbo to help with sizing.
[/quote]
Here is a link to some compressor maps for the Garrett T3 45/50/60 trim wheels. The one on the left is the stock wheel. Going the the 60 trim wheel in a stock 1984 300D, I was seeing 18 psi boost without much trouble and spool-up is about the same as stock - which isn't that great really. I also upgraded the turbine to a stage II wheel. Both housings had to be machined for the new wheels. If you want mainly max output without much concern for increased low end torque then this is a decent way to go. My next step will be installing a cnc billet 60 trim comp wheel - it is lighter and more efficient, hopefully spool-up will be better.
If you are still concerned about driveability and fuel economy, then make sure to check and compensate for chain stretch, advance the injection timing (27 degrees btdc - drip), ream the precup burn holes, etc., etc. A gt2256v will give you great spool-up but will top out sooner and make serious heat at max boost, and require some tuning to get the vane controller to work right. OM616 has put out some great info on how to turn up the MW IP.
Tom
Those compressor maps are helpful. Do you know that the equivalent GT turbo would be to the stock turbo? How are your egt's with the larger compressor and turbine wheel? I was thinking of going with a newer turbo that would be slightly larger than the stock turbo, but more efficient. The hard part about the stock turbo is that I cannot find a turbine map to help choose an equivalent GT turbo. It is hard to find real world results, the feedback from you guys is great. Have your heard of guys running the gt2256v? If it runs out of air on the top end, the gt22 (non vgt) that I was looking at would probably be too small as well.
I have not had a chance to check the timing chain stretch yet or set pump timing. I am finishing up getting the must-do's taking care of first, and these are next on the list.
"Rusty" 85 300D
(01-04-2014, 12:35 AM)MFSuper90 Pretty good price for a new one, you'd have to check serial #s to see if it's the bigger wheel though.
http://bit.ly/1bFfLPf
Not sure if that showed up or not, I'm on my phone. But ebay a hx30 and it'll come up.
Also an hx25 on ebay, although I think that would be super fast spooling, top end would suffer greatly
Nice find! I didn't see that one when I looked. Most of the ones that I found were not a genuine holset. Not sure not how many variations there are of the hx30. Do you know the specs on yours?
... It would be nice to have a turbine map of the stock turbo to help with sizing.
[/quote]
Here is a link to some compressor maps for the Garrett T3 45/50/60 trim wheels. The one on the left is the stock wheel. Going the the 60 trim wheel in a stock 1984 300D, I was seeing 18 psi boost without much trouble and spool-up is about the same as stock - which isn't that great really. I also upgraded the turbine to a stage II wheel. Both housings had to be machined for the new wheels. If you want mainly max output without much concern for increased low end torque then this is a decent way to go. My next step will be installing a cnc billet 60 trim comp wheel - it is lighter and more efficient, hopefully spool-up will be better.
If you are still concerned about driveability and fuel economy, then make sure to check and compensate for chain stretch, advance the injection timing (27 degrees btdc - drip), ream the precup burn holes, etc., etc. A gt2256v will give you great spool-up but will top out sooner and make serious heat at max boost, and require some tuning to get the vane controller to work right. OM616 has put out some great info on how to turn up the MW IP.
Tom
Those compressor maps are helpful. Do you know that the equivalent GT turbo would be to the stock turbo? How are your egt's with the larger compressor and turbine wheel? I was thinking of going with a newer turbo that would be slightly larger than the stock turbo, but more efficient. The hard part about the stock turbo is that I cannot find a turbine map to help choose an equivalent GT turbo. It is hard to find real world results, the feedback from you guys is great. Have your heard of guys running the gt2256v? If it runs out of air on the top end, the gt22 (non vgt) that I was looking at would probably be too small as well.
I have not had a chance to check the timing chain stretch yet or set pump timing. I am finishing up getting the must-do's taking care of first, and these are next on the list.
"Rusty" 85 300D
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
My hx30 is a 72mm exducer, and I never measured the turbine on it. But it has the small 6cm exhaust housing. He221 come in a 5cm but I think they are rather rare.
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
77/46mm 7+7 blade HX30W Super, 65/52mm 6cm turbine, 700$ shipped
60/44.2mm billet 6+6 blade HE221W, 52/46.6mm 7cm turbine, 750$ shipped
all genuine Holset turbos, brand new straight from factory
I have a HE211W 5cm turbine housing that has been machined to fit the HE221W turbine if someone wants an even more responsive turbo
73/44mm 6+6 blade HX30W, 65/52mm 6cm turbine, 600$ shipped
77/46mm 7+7 blade HX30W Super, 65/52mm 6cm turbine, 700$ shipped
60/44.2mm billet 6+6 blade HE221W, 52/46.6mm 7cm turbine, 750$ shipped
all genuine Holset turbos, brand new straight from factory
I have a HE211W 5cm turbine housing that has been machined to fit the HE221W turbine if someone wants an even more responsive turbo
No I don't know the equivalent-to-stock gt compressor map - but stock is really not what you want... right? The maps can only give you part of the picture - since the turbine size/housing will change the performance of any given compressor. This forum is where you want to ask about the vgt turbos (ie: gt2252/54/56). My impression has been that the gt2256v will give you excellent low end and decent high end. You will need an intercooler and a tuned controller for the vanes.
With my setup the boost comes on at about 2000 rpm, increases to (6psi @ WOT) at 2500 rpm and quickly increases to 18psi @ 3500 rpm. My drive pressure to boost never exceeds 1:1 which shows a very efficient setup. My pump has been turned up per instructions posted here by OM616. Right now with my foot into it, I can roll coal all the way up to 3500 or so, but my pump has the stock elements which fuel excessively late in the injection cycle, so I am limited by high egts. Other than upgrading to a cnc/billet compressor wheel, I am happy because I can get decent power so long as I keep an eye on the egt gauge. Advancing the IP timing helped tremendously with off-the-line performance. Fuel economy is about 29 mpg on the road @75 mph.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
kestreltom
01-07-2014, 11:28 AM #15[/quote]Those compressor maps are helpful. Do you know that the equivalent GT turbo would be to the stock turbo? How are your egt's with the larger compressor and turbine wheel? I was thinking of going with a newer turbo that would be slightly larger than the stock turbo, but more efficient. The hard part about the stock turbo is that I cannot find a turbine map to help choose an equivalent GT turbo. It is hard to find real world results, the feedback from you guys is great. Have your heard of guys running the gt2256v? If it runs out of air on the top end, the gt22 (non vgt) that I was looking at would probably be too small as well.[/quote]
No I don't know the equivalent-to-stock gt compressor map - but stock is really not what you want... right? The maps can only give you part of the picture - since the turbine size/housing will change the performance of any given compressor. This forum is where you want to ask about the vgt turbos (ie: gt2252/54/56). My impression has been that the gt2256v will give you excellent low end and decent high end. You will need an intercooler and a tuned controller for the vanes.
With my setup the boost comes on at about 2000 rpm, increases to (6psi @ WOT) at 2500 rpm and quickly increases to 18psi @ 3500 rpm. My drive pressure to boost never exceeds 1:1 which shows a very efficient setup. My pump has been turned up per instructions posted here by OM616. Right now with my foot into it, I can roll coal all the way up to 3500 or so, but my pump has the stock elements which fuel excessively late in the injection cycle, so I am limited by high egts. Other than upgrading to a cnc/billet compressor wheel, I am happy because I can get decent power so long as I keep an eye on the egt gauge. Advancing the IP timing helped tremendously with off-the-line performance. Fuel economy is about 29 mpg on the road @75 mph.
1984 300D with Monark nozzles, GT2256V w/ Synkooppi/Arduino controller, W123 n/a intake, air/water intercooler, precup holes reamed, IP & valve timing = fac + 2 degrees, upgraded leather interior, 140A alternator, electric lift pump, 3" aluminum radiator w/ electric fan, HID headlight conversion, bilsteins, stock MW IP turned up 3 turns on tq module per OM616, 2.65 rear end, ventilated front rotors, dual rear swaybar mod + W116 springs - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zPSyCMkkk0
(01-07-2014, 07:54 AM)Alcaid 73/44mm 6+6 blade HX30W, 65/52mm 6cm turbine, 600$ shipped
77/46mm 7+7 blade HX30W Super, 65/52mm 6cm turbine, 700$ shipped
60/44.2mm billet 6+6 blade HE221W, 52/46.6mm 7cm turbine, 750$ shipped
all genuine Holset turbos, brand new straight from factory
I have a HE211W 5cm turbine housing that has been machined to fit the HE221W turbine if someone wants an even more responsive turbo
Do you have maps of the three turbos? If I recall correctly doesn't a he221 flow the same as a hx30 or maybe a little better?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
(01-07-2014, 07:54 AM)Alcaid 73/44mm 6+6 blade HX30W, 65/52mm 6cm turbine, 600$ shipped
77/46mm 7+7 blade HX30W Super, 65/52mm 6cm turbine, 700$ shipped
60/44.2mm billet 6+6 blade HE221W, 52/46.6mm 7cm turbine, 750$ shipped
all genuine Holset turbos, brand new straight from factory
I have a HE211W 5cm turbine housing that has been machined to fit the HE221W turbine if someone wants an even more responsive turbo
Do you have maps of the three turbos? If I recall correctly doesn't a he221 flow the same as a hx30 or maybe a little better?
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
HE221W 37.8lbs/min:
![[Image: HE221WCompressorMapfromCTTlbs-1.jpg]](http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a345/Alcaid/Jetta/HE221WCompressorMapfromCTTlbs-1.jpg)
HX30W 34-35lbs/min, I have the outline map in a book
HX30W Super should be 38-40lbs/min, I'm trying to get hold of the comp map
HE221W flow slightly more than the HX30W but compressor efficiency is a bit poorer than normal (a sacrifice needed to have the wide flow map that HE221W has)
HE221W 37.8lbs/min:
HX30W 34-35lbs/min, I have the outline map in a book
HX30W Super should be 38-40lbs/min, I'm trying to get hold of the comp map
Personally, I am not really interested in a vgt/vnt turbo for this car. I understand the complex electric and pneumatic systems that is supposed to control them, and don't want to make a half-bum a control for it. Not interested in rolling coal at all. I am hoping to clean up most of the smoke with the larger turbo at full boost (undecided if I will go with an air to air cac, or water injection).
Thanks again for everyone's input!
"Rusty" 85 300D
The hx30 specs are helpful, and the HE221W map as well.
Personally, I am not really interested in a vgt/vnt turbo for this car. I understand the complex electric and pneumatic systems that is supposed to control them, and don't want to make a half-bum a control for it. Not interested in rolling coal at all. I am hoping to clean up most of the smoke with the larger turbo at full boost (undecided if I will go with an air to air cac, or water injection).
Thanks again for everyone's input!
"Rusty" 85 300D
EDH_Performance
01-09-2014, 09:12 AM #20I mounted a he221 with a special 5cm housing on a mitsubishi 2.5td @ stock manifold...I have full boost (1.4bar) at 1800rpm^^ So a 7cm housing will be perfect on a 300d
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