Pump timing setup
Pump timing setup
03-28-2014, 11:52 AM
#1
How do you tell where the timing's at cylinder to cylinder? A simple dial indicator wouldn't do it as what you're trying to find is where the spill port is in relation to the plunger. I think you'd have to do it dynamically to get any kind of accuracy. Taking a video of the injectors popping on the bench, noting the time between each injector letting fuel go and adjusting from there would probably work. High speed cameras were not around back when these were thought up, and they're still out of my experience range.
Oh hell, I think I just answered my own question. Stick a degree wheel on the end of the cam and drip time them all together. They should be 90 degrees apart on the 4 cyl pump I'm playing with.
Thoughts on this?
This is all in reference to the MW pump, as it is pretty easy to adjust externally with shims.
How do you tell where the timing's at cylinder to cylinder? A simple dial indicator wouldn't do it as what you're trying to find is where the spill port is in relation to the plunger. I think you'd have to do it dynamically to get any kind of accuracy. Taking a video of the injectors popping on the bench, noting the time between each injector letting fuel go and adjusting from there would probably work. High speed cameras were not around back when these were thought up, and they're still out of my experience range.
Oh hell, I think I just answered my own question. Stick a degree wheel on the end of the cam and drip time them all together. They should be 90 degrees apart on the 4 cyl pump I'm playing with.
Thoughts on this?
03-29-2014, 10:15 AM
#2
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
Simpler=Better
03-29-2014, 10:15 AM #2PM user OM616 he's been playing with a DIY bench in his spare(haha!) time
Newbie-read this: Cheap Tricks
617.952-220k-Getting built up
larsalan I guess I need to look at this stupid ass drip shit. What you have to like mess with those elements on the pump? What a fucking hassle. then use some wire to hold the throttle open or some shit?
03-29-2014, 01:15 PM
#3
P-serie but the procedure is the same whit all inline pumps
dieselmeken
03-29-2014, 01:15 PM #3https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq2FawDlKZ8
P-serie but the procedure is the same whit all inline pumps
03-29-2014, 05:16 PM
#4
I cross check the timing using the traditional method when bleeding the air from the lines during set up on the calibration machine. This provides a second method to confirm that everything is as it should be.
However you go about it, the important thing that needs to be achieved is to have all the elements evenly timed to each other, at the same amount of cam lift.
By the book the #1 element is set with a dial indicator using a standard port height, and the remaining elements are timed using a degree wheel and spill timed from the #1 element reference.
I made special tooling and measure the height of the fill port on each barrel. Then I use a rotary table (instead of just a regular degree wheel) to rotate the cam to the proper angle for each element, and set the height of the barrel using a dial indicator and the previously measured port height .
I cross check the timing using the traditional method when bleeding the air from the lines during set up on the calibration machine. This provides a second method to confirm that everything is as it should be.
However you go about it, the important thing that needs to be achieved is to have all the elements evenly timed to each other, at the same amount of cam lift.
By the book the #1 element is set with a dial indicator using a standard port height, and the remaining elements are timed using a degree wheel and spill timed from the #1 element reference.
03-29-2014, 06:12 PM
#5
Seriously, you are using like a mill style rotary table affixed to the input & holding the casing still & measuring off of a set point on the IP?
Ed
yankneck696
03-29-2014, 06:12 PM #5So, OM616, what you are telling us is you are playing Spin the IP?
Seriously, you are using like a mill style rotary table affixed to the input & holding the casing still & measuring off of a set point on the IP?
Ed
03-29-2014, 07:18 PM
#6
(03-29-2014, 01:15 PM)dieselmeken https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq2FawDlKZ8Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I'd looked over your videos but somehow I missed that one.
P-serie but the procedure is the same whit all inline pumps
(03-29-2014, 05:16 PM)OM616 Then I use a rotary table (instead of just a regular degree wheel) to rotate the cam to the proper angle for each element, and set the height of the barrel using a dial indicator and the previously measured port height .Be easy enough to adapt the cam to my 12" rotory table and mount the case to the base. Don't have to worry about the spring tension behind the followers while rotating it then.
Get an electric pump to pressurize the fuel inlet, and drip time them all together. I figure with the amount of adjustment available in the slots (and the fact that it's going onto an ALH TDI) I don't have to worry much about timing the first one with any kind of precision, just getting the splits between them as close as I can. The actual timing will be mostly by ear once it's on the car and running.
Then the delivery amounts should be easy enough to match to each other by spinning the whole mess on the lathe and using 4 graduated cylinders. Match the injectors to their respective cylinders and all.
Mostly I'm asking all this because in the future I'd like to upgrade to the 10mm chinese elements for the quicker injection duration.
This post was last modified: 03-29-2014, 07:23 PM by [486].
(03-29-2014, 01:15 PM)dieselmeken https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq2FawDlKZ8Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I'd looked over your videos but somehow I missed that one.
P-serie but the procedure is the same whit all inline pumps
(03-29-2014, 05:16 PM)OM616 Then I use a rotary table (instead of just a regular degree wheel) to rotate the cam to the proper angle for each element, and set the height of the barrel using a dial indicator and the previously measured port height .Be easy enough to adapt the cam to my 12" rotory table and mount the case to the base. Don't have to worry about the spring tension behind the followers while rotating it then.
Get an electric pump to pressurize the fuel inlet, and drip time them all together. I figure with the amount of adjustment available in the slots (and the fact that it's going onto an ALH TDI) I don't have to worry much about timing the first one with any kind of precision, just getting the splits between them as close as I can. The actual timing will be mostly by ear once it's on the car and running.
Then the delivery amounts should be easy enough to match to each other by spinning the whole mess on the lathe and using 4 graduated cylinders. Match the injectors to their respective cylinders and all.
Mostly I'm asking all this because in the future I'd like to upgrade to the 10mm chinese elements for the quicker injection duration.
03-29-2014, 09:57 PM
#7
(03-29-2014, 06:12 PM)yankneck696 So, OM616, what you are telling us is you are playing Spin the IP?
Seriously, you are using like a mill style rotary table affixed to the input & holding the casing still & measuring off of a set point on the IP?
Ed
I am a machinist amongst other things lol, but yes I set up a 6 inch horizontal rotary table so that the IP cam plugs into it. Where a degree wheel has only single degree marks, the rotary table brakes down 1 degree into seconds, and as was pointed out, it holds the position against the springs wanting to turn the cam back.
The drip method is way to crude and sloppy for my taste, but you can set up a pump well with in Bosch's specks using it. I also think that Bosch's tolerances are way too loose as well lol...
I'm not suggesting that the way I do it is better, it is just is the way I want my pumps built..
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Be easy enough to adapt the cam to my 12" rotory table and mount the case to the base. Don't have to worry about the spring tension behind the followers while rotating it then.
Yep
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] I don't have to worry much about timing the first one with any kind of precision, just getting the splits between them as close as I can. The actual timing will be mostly by ear once it's on the car and running.
Not correct!! This thinking can/will get you into a lot of trouble.. It is important that the start of injection (the closure of the fill port by the ascending plunger) needs to take place at a specific amount of plunger lift.
It is very important that the #1 element be properly set at the correct plunger height...
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Then the delivery amounts should be easy enough to match to each other by spinning the whole mess on the lathe and using 4 graduated cylinders. Match the injectors to their respective cylinders and all.
Yes that can be done, just know that you will be calibrating the tolerance of the injectors into the pump, so if you change injectors the delivery balance will go to hell.
There are special calibrated and balanced master injectors that are used to balance the elements with.
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Mostly I'm asking all this because in the future I'd like to upgrade to the 10mm chinese elements for the quicker injection duration.
That is a different animal, and is not as easy as just throwing in 10mm elements and racing off in to the sun set lol...
This post was last modified: 03-29-2014, 10:11 PM by OM616.
(03-29-2014, 06:12 PM)yankneck696 So, OM616, what you are telling us is you are playing Spin the IP?
Seriously, you are using like a mill style rotary table affixed to the input & holding the casing still & measuring off of a set point on the IP?
Ed
I am a machinist amongst other things lol, but yes I set up a 6 inch horizontal rotary table so that the IP cam plugs into it. Where a degree wheel has only single degree marks, the rotary table brakes down 1 degree into seconds, and as was pointed out, it holds the position against the springs wanting to turn the cam back.
The drip method is way to crude and sloppy for my taste, but you can set up a pump well with in Bosch's specks using it. I also think that Bosch's tolerances are way too loose as well lol...
I'm not suggesting that the way I do it is better, it is just is the way I want my pumps built..
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Be easy enough to adapt the cam to my 12" rotory table and mount the case to the base. Don't have to worry about the spring tension behind the followers while rotating it then.
Yep
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] I don't have to worry much about timing the first one with any kind of precision, just getting the splits between them as close as I can. The actual timing will be mostly by ear once it's on the car and running.
Not correct!! This thinking can/will get you into a lot of trouble.. It is important that the start of injection (the closure of the fill port by the ascending plunger) needs to take place at a specific amount of plunger lift.
It is very important that the #1 element be properly set at the correct plunger height...
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Then the delivery amounts should be easy enough to match to each other by spinning the whole mess on the lathe and using 4 graduated cylinders. Match the injectors to their respective cylinders and all.
Yes that can be done, just know that you will be calibrating the tolerance of the injectors into the pump, so if you change injectors the delivery balance will go to hell.
There are special calibrated and balanced master injectors that are used to balance the elements with.
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Mostly I'm asking all this because in the future I'd like to upgrade to the 10mm chinese elements for the quicker injection duration.
That is a different animal, and is not as easy as just throwing in 10mm elements and racing off in to the sun set lol...
03-30-2014, 07:47 AM
#8
Ed
yankneck696
03-30-2014, 07:47 AM #8Bosch's (Along with most other manufacturer's) tolerances are for production runs. If they all went exactingly, the price point would be too high. If I had equipment & time, I would be as precise as you are. But, alas, I am just a poor boy, nobody loves me..... Oh, I digress into song. Was that a butterfly?
Ed
03-30-2014, 05:36 PM
#9
(03-29-2014, 09:57 PM)OM616Thinking on it, wouldn't setting it (the barrel) too low result in the injection event being more drawn out, as the cam is at a different section of its profile? It'd probably have the fastest ramping part of the stroke wasted in over travel with the spill port open to the helix.(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] I don't have to worry much about timing the first one with any kind of precision, just getting the splits between them as close as I can. The actual timing will be mostly by ear once it's on the car and running.
Not correct!! This thinking can/will get you into a lot of trouble.. It is important that the start of injection (the closure of the fill port by the ascending plunger) needs to take place at a specific amount of plunger lift.
It is very important that the #1 element be properly set at the correct plunger height...
Too high seems as though it would limit the fueling at the "wide" end of the helix, as in not getting the most of the usable stroke the cam provides.
(03-29-2014, 09:57 PM)OM616Well, that's an awful lot of money to spend.(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Then the delivery amounts should be easy enough to match to each other by spinning the whole mess on the lathe and using 4 graduated cylinders. Match the injectors to their respective cylinders and all.
Yes that can be done, just know that you will be calibrating the tolerance of the injectors into the pump, so if you change injectors the delivery balance will go to hell.
There are special calibrated and balanced master injectors that are used to balance the elements with.
Think that they could be balanced with just the delivery valves holding back pressure? Then it would be calibrated independently of the injectors. Though there has to be a reason that the big guys use injectors, just wondering if it is some reason that can be ignored in my application, like setting the amount of fuel output to spec.
(03-29-2014, 09:57 PM)OM616Well naturally, not planning to screw with that until the engine's running and all. I'd imagine the helix could be cut to a shallower angle to help smooth the governor operation. I'm largely unaware of other issues, I've searched for threads on them, but don't come up with very much.(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Mostly I'm asking all this because in the future I'd like to upgrade to the 10mm chinese elements for the quicker injection duration.
That is a different animal, and is not as easy as just throwing in 10mm elements and racing off in to the sun set lol...
Really starting to regret passing up on that KO lee tool and cutter grinder that was on craigslist for $600 a couple months back... Would be absolutely perfect for changing the helix, among other things.
(03-29-2014, 09:57 PM)OM616Thinking on it, wouldn't setting it (the barrel) too low result in the injection event being more drawn out, as the cam is at a different section of its profile? It'd probably have the fastest ramping part of the stroke wasted in over travel with the spill port open to the helix.(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] I don't have to worry much about timing the first one with any kind of precision, just getting the splits between them as close as I can. The actual timing will be mostly by ear once it's on the car and running.
Not correct!! This thinking can/will get you into a lot of trouble.. It is important that the start of injection (the closure of the fill port by the ascending plunger) needs to take place at a specific amount of plunger lift.
It is very important that the #1 element be properly set at the correct plunger height...
Too high seems as though it would limit the fueling at the "wide" end of the helix, as in not getting the most of the usable stroke the cam provides.
(03-29-2014, 09:57 PM)OM616Well, that's an awful lot of money to spend.(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Then the delivery amounts should be easy enough to match to each other by spinning the whole mess on the lathe and using 4 graduated cylinders. Match the injectors to their respective cylinders and all.
Yes that can be done, just know that you will be calibrating the tolerance of the injectors into the pump, so if you change injectors the delivery balance will go to hell.
There are special calibrated and balanced master injectors that are used to balance the elements with.
Think that they could be balanced with just the delivery valves holding back pressure? Then it would be calibrated independently of the injectors. Though there has to be a reason that the big guys use injectors, just wondering if it is some reason that can be ignored in my application, like setting the amount of fuel output to spec.
(03-29-2014, 09:57 PM)OM616Well naturally, not planning to screw with that until the engine's running and all. I'd imagine the helix could be cut to a shallower angle to help smooth the governor operation. I'm largely unaware of other issues, I've searched for threads on them, but don't come up with very much.(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Mostly I'm asking all this because in the future I'd like to upgrade to the 10mm chinese elements for the quicker injection duration.
That is a different animal, and is not as easy as just throwing in 10mm elements and racing off in to the sun set lol...
Really starting to regret passing up on that KO lee tool and cutter grinder that was on craigslist for $600 a couple months back... Would be absolutely perfect for changing the helix, among other things.
03-31-2014, 10:09 AM
#10
(03-30-2014, 05:36 PM)[486] Thinking on it, wouldn't setting it (the barrel) too low result in the injection event being more drawn out, as the cam is at a different section of its profile? It'd probably have the fastest ramping part of the stroke wasted in over travel with the spill port open to the helix.
Too high seems as though it would limit the fueling at the "wide" end of the helix, as in not getting the most of the usable stroke the cam provides.
I did install my first ones a little lower for the same theory you stated. I mapped out the cam profile first, and set them a little lower. The next one I build will be to speck, as I have a much better idea of how the system works and have selected parts that match better.
Fill time can suffer if you go very far, the cam is very radical, so it does not take much to have a very large effect that can be negative.
There is one way to find out lol... Lessons are best learned the hard way some times..
(03-30-2014, 05:36 PM)[486] Well, that's an awful lot of money to spend.
Think that they could be balanced with just the delivery valves holding back pressure? Then it would be calibrated independently of the injectors. Though there has to be a reason that the big guys use injectors, just wondering if it is some reason that can be ignored in my application, like setting the amount of fuel output to spec.
No, you need the high pressure to calibrate for leakage and DV operation. There are no short cuts when it comes to quality. You get out of it what you invest into it.
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Well naturally, not planning to screw with that until the engine's running and all. I'd imagine the helix could be cut to a shallower angle to help smooth the governor operation. I'm largely unaware of other issues, I've searched for threads on them, but don't come up with very much.
Been there and done that with the first 10mm elements. Later after talking with some very knowledgeable people on this forum, I came to learn that my understanding of how the system works was wrong, and after doing some math, discovered that I did not need to reangle the helix, but rather select the proper parts. I chose some different elements and DVs that should be good for what “I” want to do, but I have not had a chance to run them yet.
I will say that the helix on the China elements is the quality issue with them, I now just touch them to match them up to each other in the set. I also add an additional fill port in the barrel.
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Really starting to regret passing up on that KO lee tool and cutter grinder that was on craigslist for $600 a couple months back... Would be absolutely perfect for changing the helix, among other things.
You will also need some special tools to disassemble and reassemble the MW pump.
The Governor will work fine if it is adjusted properly, so little is known that people think the worst.
(03-30-2014, 05:36 PM)[486] Thinking on it, wouldn't setting it (the barrel) too low result in the injection event being more drawn out, as the cam is at a different section of its profile? It'd probably have the fastest ramping part of the stroke wasted in over travel with the spill port open to the helix.
Too high seems as though it would limit the fueling at the "wide" end of the helix, as in not getting the most of the usable stroke the cam provides.
I did install my first ones a little lower for the same theory you stated. I mapped out the cam profile first, and set them a little lower. The next one I build will be to speck, as I have a much better idea of how the system works and have selected parts that match better.
Fill time can suffer if you go very far, the cam is very radical, so it does not take much to have a very large effect that can be negative.
There is one way to find out lol... Lessons are best learned the hard way some times..
(03-30-2014, 05:36 PM)[486] Well, that's an awful lot of money to spend.
Think that they could be balanced with just the delivery valves holding back pressure? Then it would be calibrated independently of the injectors. Though there has to be a reason that the big guys use injectors, just wondering if it is some reason that can be ignored in my application, like setting the amount of fuel output to spec.
No, you need the high pressure to calibrate for leakage and DV operation. There are no short cuts when it comes to quality. You get out of it what you invest into it.
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Well naturally, not planning to screw with that until the engine's running and all. I'd imagine the helix could be cut to a shallower angle to help smooth the governor operation. I'm largely unaware of other issues, I've searched for threads on them, but don't come up with very much.
Been there and done that with the first 10mm elements. Later after talking with some very knowledgeable people on this forum, I came to learn that my understanding of how the system works was wrong, and after doing some math, discovered that I did not need to reangle the helix, but rather select the proper parts. I chose some different elements and DVs that should be good for what “I” want to do, but I have not had a chance to run them yet.
I will say that the helix on the China elements is the quality issue with them, I now just touch them to match them up to each other in the set. I also add an additional fill port in the barrel.
(03-29-2014, 07:18 PM)[486] Really starting to regret passing up on that KO lee tool and cutter grinder that was on craigslist for $600 a couple months back... Would be absolutely perfect for changing the helix, among other things.
You will also need some special tools to disassemble and reassemble the MW pump.
The Governor will work fine if it is adjusted properly, so little is known that people think the worst.
03-31-2014, 10:00 PM
#11
(03-31-2014, 10:09 AM)OM616 Fill time can suffer if you go very far, the cam is very radical, so it does not take much to have a very large effect that can be negative.Ah, so the rotation is such that delivery is on the fast ramping section of the cam. Really strange looking asymmetrical things...
There is one way to find out lol... Lessons are best learned the hard way some times..
There is much truth to that. I have no doubt that I'll probably spend just as much as I would to send it to Goran. This way I'll learn a lot more, though.
(03-31-2014, 10:09 AM)OM616 No, you need the high pressure to calibrate for leakage and DV operation. There are no short cuts when it comes to quality. You get out of it what you invest into it.Ah, okay. Thanks for saving me that amount of dicking around. I have no real issue with keeping the injectors matched as a set and having to recalibrate the pump when changing them.
(03-31-2014, 10:09 AM)OM616 Been there and done that with the first 10mm elements. Later after talking with some very knowledgeable people on this forum, I came to learn that my understanding of how the system works was wrong, and after doing some math, discovered that I did not need to reangle the helix, but rather select the proper parts. I chose some different elements and DVs that should be good for what “I” want to do, but I have not had a chance to run them yet.Shouldn't the fill port be sized to the element already, as it is drilled in the barrel? Or is this one of those higher RPM things? I can see cavitation being an issue pretty easily.
I will say that the helix on the China elements is the quality issue with them, I now just touch them to match them up to each other in the set. I also add an additional fill port in the barrel.
I had ideas of cutting timing advance into the elements to have a milder running engine at low throttle amounts, but I suppose that would be tough to do because I'd need to start with an element that had a retard notch already cut, otherwise further cutting would just result in a dead spot where the spill port would just be uncovered all the time. Maybe that could be compensated for elsewhere. The top end would be unusable anyways, so maybe it would just move the "fueling zone" a little bit over in the rack travel.
Much to learn. Haven't had mine all apart yet.
(03-31-2014, 10:09 AM)OM616 You will also need some special tools to disassemble and reassemble the MW pump.The tappet lifting tools? Easy enough to turn them out of some junk stock I've got around (old CV axles make great carbon tool steel, just lop the joints off and throw the shafts in a bonfire to anneal), take a couple days of free time, not much at all.
The Governor will work fine if it is adjusted properly, so little is known that people think the worst.
Good to know on the governor.
(03-31-2014, 10:09 AM)OM616 Fill time can suffer if you go very far, the cam is very radical, so it does not take much to have a very large effect that can be negative.Ah, so the rotation is such that delivery is on the fast ramping section of the cam. Really strange looking asymmetrical things...
There is one way to find out lol... Lessons are best learned the hard way some times..
There is much truth to that. I have no doubt that I'll probably spend just as much as I would to send it to Goran. This way I'll learn a lot more, though.
(03-31-2014, 10:09 AM)OM616 No, you need the high pressure to calibrate for leakage and DV operation. There are no short cuts when it comes to quality. You get out of it what you invest into it.Ah, okay. Thanks for saving me that amount of dicking around. I have no real issue with keeping the injectors matched as a set and having to recalibrate the pump when changing them.
(03-31-2014, 10:09 AM)OM616 Been there and done that with the first 10mm elements. Later after talking with some very knowledgeable people on this forum, I came to learn that my understanding of how the system works was wrong, and after doing some math, discovered that I did not need to reangle the helix, but rather select the proper parts. I chose some different elements and DVs that should be good for what “I” want to do, but I have not had a chance to run them yet.Shouldn't the fill port be sized to the element already, as it is drilled in the barrel? Or is this one of those higher RPM things? I can see cavitation being an issue pretty easily.
I will say that the helix on the China elements is the quality issue with them, I now just touch them to match them up to each other in the set. I also add an additional fill port in the barrel.
I had ideas of cutting timing advance into the elements to have a milder running engine at low throttle amounts, but I suppose that would be tough to do because I'd need to start with an element that had a retard notch already cut, otherwise further cutting would just result in a dead spot where the spill port would just be uncovered all the time. Maybe that could be compensated for elsewhere. The top end would be unusable anyways, so maybe it would just move the "fueling zone" a little bit over in the rack travel.
Much to learn. Haven't had mine all apart yet.
(03-31-2014, 10:09 AM)OM616 You will also need some special tools to disassemble and reassemble the MW pump.The tappet lifting tools? Easy enough to turn them out of some junk stock I've got around (old CV axles make great carbon tool steel, just lop the joints off and throw the shafts in a bonfire to anneal), take a couple days of free time, not much at all.
The Governor will work fine if it is adjusted properly, so little is known that people think the worst.
Good to know on the governor.
04-01-2014, 10:52 AM
#12
(03-31-2014, 10:00 PM)[486] Shouldn't the fill port be sized to the element already, as it is drilled in the barrel? Or is this one of those higher RPM things? I can see cavitation being an issue pretty easily.
Remember that these elements were designed for slow truning engines used on heavy equieptment. The 617a can run up to three times faster in some cases depending on the element was used in. I add the extra fill hole because I can.
(03-31-2014, 10:00 PM)[486] I had ideas of cutting timing advance into the elements to have a milder running engine at low throttle amounts, but I suppose that would be tough to do because I'd need to start with an element that had a retard notch already cut, otherwise further cutting would just result in a dead spot where the spill port would just be uncovered all the time. Maybe that could be compensated for elsewhere. The top end would be unusable anyways, so maybe it would just move the "fueling zone" a little bit over in the rack travel.
Personally I am not a fan of using the elements to control timing as each one is positioned differently depending on the delivery balance adjustments that were made.
IMOP, all timing manipulation should be handled by the timing mechanism. I will be setting mine up to come in partially after starting, providing a less advanced position for starting, and once running advance to the bottom of the curve. Then I want to have full advance in by 2K or sooner.
(03-31-2014, 10:00 PM)[486] The tappet lifting tools? Easy enough to turn them out of some junk stock I've got around (old CV axles make great carbon tool steel, just lop the joints off and throw the shafts in a bonfire to anneal), take a couple days of free time, not much at all.
Good to know on the governor.
The Tappet Holders are very special tools. These hold the lifters off of the cam and are inserted after the lifter is depressed with a press of some kind.
But before you can use the tappet holders, you will need a Welch plug puller to remove the Welch plugs.
(03-31-2014, 10:00 PM)[486] Shouldn't the fill port be sized to the element already, as it is drilled in the barrel? Or is this one of those higher RPM things? I can see cavitation being an issue pretty easily.
Remember that these elements were designed for slow truning engines used on heavy equieptment. The 617a can run up to three times faster in some cases depending on the element was used in. I add the extra fill hole because I can.
(03-31-2014, 10:00 PM)[486] I had ideas of cutting timing advance into the elements to have a milder running engine at low throttle amounts, but I suppose that would be tough to do because I'd need to start with an element that had a retard notch already cut, otherwise further cutting would just result in a dead spot where the spill port would just be uncovered all the time. Maybe that could be compensated for elsewhere. The top end would be unusable anyways, so maybe it would just move the "fueling zone" a little bit over in the rack travel.
Personally I am not a fan of using the elements to control timing as each one is positioned differently depending on the delivery balance adjustments that were made.
IMOP, all timing manipulation should be handled by the timing mechanism. I will be setting mine up to come in partially after starting, providing a less advanced position for starting, and once running advance to the bottom of the curve. Then I want to have full advance in by 2K or sooner.
(03-31-2014, 10:00 PM)[486] The tappet lifting tools? Easy enough to turn them out of some junk stock I've got around (old CV axles make great carbon tool steel, just lop the joints off and throw the shafts in a bonfire to anneal), take a couple days of free time, not much at all.
Good to know on the governor.
The Tappet Holders are very special tools. These hold the lifters off of the cam and are inserted after the lifter is depressed with a press of some kind.
But before you can use the tappet holders, you will need a Welch plug puller to remove the Welch plugs.
04-02-2014, 09:03 PM
#13
(04-01-2014, 10:52 AM)OM616 Personally I am not a fan of using the elements to control timing as each one is positioned differently depending on the delivery balance adjustments that were made.Ah, so there is an advance mechanism in the timing case that I should have grabbed when I got my pump from the junk yard. Damn.
IMOP, all timing manipulation should be handled by the timing mechanism. I will be setting mine up to come in partially after starting, providing a less advanced position for starting, and once running advance to the bottom of the curve. Then I want to have full advance in by 2K or sooner.
All of my diesel experience is in the land of heavy truck engines with fixed timing sets. I assumed these were the same.
Oh well. (04-01-2014, 10:52 AM)OM616 The Tappet Holders are very special tools. These hold the lifters off of the cam and are inserted after the lifter is depressed with a press of some kind.
But before you can use the tappet holders, you will need a Welch plug puller to remove the Welch plugs.
For the plugs, I've got a whole drawer of taps. Find one that gets good thread depth, make a threaded rod the same thread, and make a "cup" that braces around the plug and allows a nut used on the threaded rod to pull the plug out. An hour or 2 of lathe work and a quick quench and temper so the threads last longer than two uses.
The tappet holders I've seen in videos look to be a tube with a rod with an eccentric on the end. For expediency's sake get some seamless tubing for the outer barrel, and turn some eccentrics to pin onto drill rod for the eccentric bit. Weld a nut to the other end of the drill rod to make turning the eccentrics easy.
All together a lazy day's work. I can't make a splined socket for the DV holders, however, so I'll have to buy one of them.
(04-01-2014, 10:52 AM)OM616 Personally I am not a fan of using the elements to control timing as each one is positioned differently depending on the delivery balance adjustments that were made.Ah, so there is an advance mechanism in the timing case that I should have grabbed when I got my pump from the junk yard. Damn.
IMOP, all timing manipulation should be handled by the timing mechanism. I will be setting mine up to come in partially after starting, providing a less advanced position for starting, and once running advance to the bottom of the curve. Then I want to have full advance in by 2K or sooner.
All of my diesel experience is in the land of heavy truck engines with fixed timing sets. I assumed these were the same.
Oh well. (04-01-2014, 10:52 AM)OM616 The Tappet Holders are very special tools. These hold the lifters off of the cam and are inserted after the lifter is depressed with a press of some kind.
But before you can use the tappet holders, you will need a Welch plug puller to remove the Welch plugs.
For the plugs, I've got a whole drawer of taps. Find one that gets good thread depth, make a threaded rod the same thread, and make a "cup" that braces around the plug and allows a nut used on the threaded rod to pull the plug out. An hour or 2 of lathe work and a quick quench and temper so the threads last longer than two uses.
The tappet holders I've seen in videos look to be a tube with a rod with an eccentric on the end. For expediency's sake get some seamless tubing for the outer barrel, and turn some eccentrics to pin onto drill rod for the eccentric bit. Weld a nut to the other end of the drill rod to make turning the eccentrics easy.
All together a lazy day's work. I can't make a splined socket for the DV holders, however, so I'll have to buy one of them.
04-03-2014, 08:29 PM
#14
(04-02-2014, 09:03 PM)[486] The tappet holders I've seen in videos look to be a tube with a rod with an eccentric on the end. For expediency's sake get some seamless tubing for the outer barrel, and turn some eccentrics to pin onto drill rod for the eccentric bit. Weld a nut to the other end of the drill rod to make turning the eccentrics easy.
All together a lazy day's work. I can't make a splined socket for the DV holders, however, so I'll have to buy one of them.
The splined DV holders are on M pumps which use one type of Tappet holder, and regarding making MW tappet holders..... Let me know how that works out lol...
(04-02-2014, 09:03 PM)[486] The tappet holders I've seen in videos look to be a tube with a rod with an eccentric on the end. For expediency's sake get some seamless tubing for the outer barrel, and turn some eccentrics to pin onto drill rod for the eccentric bit. Weld a nut to the other end of the drill rod to make turning the eccentrics easy.
All together a lazy day's work. I can't make a splined socket for the DV holders, however, so I'll have to buy one of them.
The splined DV holders are on M pumps which use one type of Tappet holder, and regarding making MW tappet holders..... Let me know how that works out lol...
04-04-2014, 01:35 PM
#15
(04-03-2014, 08:29 PM)OM616 The splined DV holders are on M pumps which use one type of Tappet holder, and regarding making MW tappet holders..... Let me know how that works out lol...
Alrighty, finally got the pump out of the trunk of my car and started fiddling around with it. :p
Sure enough it is a lot different than the P-pump I watched a disassembly video on. Looks like the tappet holders will need to support two tappets each. Haven't got the plugs out yet, but so far this looks like it will simplify things a little only having to make two tools for that.
On to the delivery valves, I'm starting to see just how complex these things really are. The pintle has a taper seat and a ring on it, both are a tight enough fit to the barrel that light will not pass either, and there's a good 2mm between them that the pintle has to travel before it "opens" to the injector line.
Without putting thought into it it would be apparent that it would be a way to decrease effective stroke of the element, but with some more thought I get absolutely lost. When the valve is moving it has to displace fuel in the injector line, thereby injecting fuel. This brings to mind "split shot" unit injectors where there are multiple injection events in a power stroke.
Maybe it has nothing to do with injection, but instead the down stroke of the element, preventing the vacuum that would result from the element moving toward its fill hole from pulling the injector pintle open and drawing air into the system through the injector.
ETA: BUT THEN THE DV CLOSING WOULD CREATE A SIMILAR VACUUM. I'm starting to accept that IPs are f'in magic, like the rest of everyone already has.
Learning a ton here. Any good links toward info on this?
This post was last modified: 04-04-2014, 01:59 PM by [486].
(04-03-2014, 08:29 PM)OM616 The splined DV holders are on M pumps which use one type of Tappet holder, and regarding making MW tappet holders..... Let me know how that works out lol...
Alrighty, finally got the pump out of the trunk of my car and started fiddling around with it. :p
Sure enough it is a lot different than the P-pump I watched a disassembly video on. Looks like the tappet holders will need to support two tappets each. Haven't got the plugs out yet, but so far this looks like it will simplify things a little only having to make two tools for that.
On to the delivery valves, I'm starting to see just how complex these things really are. The pintle has a taper seat and a ring on it, both are a tight enough fit to the barrel that light will not pass either, and there's a good 2mm between them that the pintle has to travel before it "opens" to the injector line.
Without putting thought into it it would be apparent that it would be a way to decrease effective stroke of the element, but with some more thought I get absolutely lost. When the valve is moving it has to displace fuel in the injector line, thereby injecting fuel. This brings to mind "split shot" unit injectors where there are multiple injection events in a power stroke.
Maybe it has nothing to do with injection, but instead the down stroke of the element, preventing the vacuum that would result from the element moving toward its fill hole from pulling the injector pintle open and drawing air into the system through the injector.
ETA: BUT THEN THE DV CLOSING WOULD CREATE A SIMILAR VACUUM. I'm starting to accept that IPs are f'in magic, like the rest of everyone already has.
Learning a ton here. Any good links toward info on this?
04-04-2014, 04:38 PM
#16
(04-04-2014, 01:35 PM)[486] . I'm starting to accept that IPs are f'in magic, like the rest of everyone already has.
Learning a ton here. Any good links toward info on this?
Not really magic once you figure out how everything relates to each other and works..
You are going to have to put in the time researching on line. There is a lot of good stuff that has been posted on pump operation, there is also lots of incorrect information posted so you have to weed through it all.. No short cuts if you truly want to understand it all.
(04-04-2014, 01:35 PM)[486] . I'm starting to accept that IPs are f'in magic, like the rest of everyone already has.
Learning a ton here. Any good links toward info on this?
Not really magic once you figure out how everything relates to each other and works..
You are going to have to put in the time researching on line. There is a lot of good stuff that has been posted on pump operation, there is also lots of incorrect information posted so you have to weed through it all.. No short cuts if you truly want to understand it all.
04-04-2014, 09:02 PM
#17
(04-04-2014, 04:38 PM)OM616 there is also lots of incorrect information posted so you have to weed through it all.
too right
That's why I more or less gave up on car forums long ago.
Thanks for your insight so far.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread...w-it-works
Collecting info, this guy seems to have a good handle on the RW governor.
This post was last modified: 04-05-2014, 01:40 PM by [486].
(04-04-2014, 04:38 PM)OM616 there is also lots of incorrect information posted so you have to weed through it all.
too right
That's why I more or less gave up on car forums long ago.
Thanks for your insight so far.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread...w-it-works
Collecting info, this guy seems to have a good handle on the RW governor.
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