Compound om605 - mini project
Compound om605 - mini project
02-27-2016, 09:15 PM
#52
(11-03-2015, 12:11 PM)EDH_Performance Hx30 6cm and hx40 18cm hx40 in stamsaas build works, but hx30 is big bottle neck
Paul's hx35 12cm and hx52 16cm om606 is working good but high bacpressure due to hx35 turbine and housing
Sure the hx30 is a big bottle neck, but it has a wastegate, so it should be able to send a lot of exhaust flow to the larger turbine on the hx40. The question is whether he had to use an external wastegate to send 40% of the exhaust around the HP turbine, or whether the internal WG of the hx30 was able to handle it?
atypicalguy
02-27-2016, 09:15 PM #52(11-03-2015, 12:11 PM)EDH_Performance Hx30 6cm and hx40 18cm hx40 in stamsaas build works, but hx30 is big bottle neck
Paul's hx35 12cm and hx52 16cm om606 is working good but high bacpressure due to hx35 turbine and housing
Sure the hx30 is a big bottle neck, but it has a wastegate, so it should be able to send a lot of exhaust flow to the larger turbine on the hx40. The question is whether he had to use an external wastegate to send 40% of the exhaust around the HP turbine, or whether the internal WG of the hx30 was able to handle it?
02-29-2016, 04:53 AM
#53
(02-25-2016, 01:12 PM)2996 Absolutely fantastic build, especially considering the engineering constraints the chassis produces! Hmm, that wastegate looks familiar
The exhaust reminds me of the turbine outlet of an arriel, very nice
F-tune Performance
![[Image: V-band_om606.jpg]](http://www.f-tune.se/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/V-band_om606.jpg)
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I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Thanks mate
(02-25-2016, 01:12 PM)2996 Absolutely fantastic build, especially considering the engineering constraints the chassis produces! Hmm, that wastegate looks familiar
The exhaust reminds me of the turbine outlet of an arriel, very nice
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
02-29-2016, 05:03 AM
#54
(02-25-2016, 01:12 PM)2996 Absolutely fantastic build, especially considering the engineering constraints the chassis produces! Hmm, that wastegate looks familiar
The exhaust reminds me of the turbine outlet of an arriel, very nice
Yes FRAS looking good over there. What is the plan for the wastegate actuators? Seems like one would want electronic control.
atypicalguy
02-29-2016, 05:03 AM #54F.R.A.SThanks mate
(02-25-2016, 01:12 PM)2996 Absolutely fantastic build, especially considering the engineering constraints the chassis produces! Hmm, that wastegate looks familiar
The exhaust reminds me of the turbine outlet of an arriel, very nice
Yes FRAS looking good over there. What is the plan for the wastegate actuators? Seems like one would want electronic control.
03-01-2016, 03:18 AM
#55
I don't know whats the fastest way of doing this or even how to do it "right" but I would dial them in each and every one on there own.
(02-29-2016, 05:03 AM)atypicalguy Yes FRAS looking good over there. What is the plan for the wastegate actuators? Seems like one would want electronic control.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
It's not for me to decide but I would go manual boost control on them all. As it is now we have three boost activated wastegates. One internal on the hx30 and one internal on the hx52 + the Tial 44mm wastegate.
I don't know whats the fastest way of doing this or even how to do it "right" but I would dial them in each and every one on there own.
(02-29-2016, 05:03 AM)atypicalguy Yes FRAS looking good over there. What is the plan for the wastegate actuators? Seems like one would want electronic control.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
03-03-2016, 03:43 AM
#56
(03-01-2016, 03:18 AM)F.R.A.S It's not for me to decide but I would go manual boost control on them all. As it is now we have three boost activated wastegates. One internal on the hx30 and one internal on the hx52 + the Tial 44mm wastegate.
I don't know whats the fastest way of doing this or even how to do it "right" but I would dial them in each and every one on there own.
(02-29-2016, 05:03 AM)atypicalguy Yes FRAS looking good over there. What is the plan for the wastegate actuators? Seems like one would want electronic control.
Perhaps the Tial gate needs to reference exhaust manifold pressure so it opens only when the exhaust manifold pressure rises above 'normal' (because the HX30 internal gate runs out of flow capacity to handle the gas volume)?
Patent pending.. lol
This post was last modified: 03-03-2016, 03:43 AM by Hario'.
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
(03-01-2016, 03:18 AM)F.R.A.S It's not for me to decide but I would go manual boost control on them all. As it is now we have three boost activated wastegates. One internal on the hx30 and one internal on the hx52 + the Tial 44mm wastegate.
I don't know whats the fastest way of doing this or even how to do it "right" but I would dial them in each and every one on there own.
(02-29-2016, 05:03 AM)atypicalguy Yes FRAS looking good over there. What is the plan for the wastegate actuators? Seems like one would want electronic control.
Perhaps the Tial gate needs to reference exhaust manifold pressure so it opens only when the exhaust manifold pressure rises above 'normal' (because the HX30 internal gate runs out of flow capacity to handle the gas volume)?
Patent pending.. lol
Installed:
OM606/722.6, big IC, W220 brakes.
Planned:
DIY manifold, compound, 722.6 controller, built IP.
[i]Less rust.. [/i]
03-03-2016, 10:14 AM
#57
whipplem104
03-03-2016, 10:14 AM #57Hario that is kind of the idea. The problem is of course surviving the exh gas temp to do so. So a little bit more complicated way to do the same thing is to actually run the most amount of wastegating that you can to maintain your desired boost pressure. You could also do this more simply by opening at a desired rpm where you calculated the flow to be about the choke point of the smaller turbo. But basically we do something similar with rally cars running on the restrictor. It is on the intake of course but similar concept up top in the higher rpms. We go from really targeting boost pressure to opening the wastegate even though pressure is dropping to relieve exh back pressure. And we pick up really pretty high hp numbers from this. We check inlet vacuum at the shaft. But you could do something similar temporarily in the exh. and check the rpm/boost pressure that the exh pressure will just spike through the roof. Open the wastegate a bit before all the way.
03-22-2016, 01:59 PM
#58
(03-03-2016, 10:14 AM)whipplem104 Hario that is kind of the idea. The problem is of course surviving the exh gas temp to do so. So a little bit more complicated way to do the same thing is to actually run the most amount of wastegating that you can to maintain your desired boost pressure. You could also do this more simply by opening at a desired rpm where you calculated the flow to be about the choke point of the smaller turbo. But basically we do something similar with rally cars running on the restrictor. It is on the intake of course but similar concept up top in the higher rpms. We go from really targeting boost pressure to opening the wastegate even though pressure is dropping to relieve exh back pressure. And we pick up really pretty high hp numbers from this. We check inlet vacuum at the shaft. But you could do something similar temporarily in the exh. and check the rpm/boost pressure that the exh pressure will just spike through the roof. Open the wastegate a bit before all the way.
Not to divert discussion from this forum but I did have an extended chat to Dougal over on 4btswaps about setting up a set of compounds on an om606 for my particular injection pump. We settled on hx30 and he451 (non-vgt), which works fine for 120cc, but in retrospect I probably should have chosen a higher A/R housing for the LP turbo, e.g. an hx55 or a large housing hx40 with a larger compressor, for higher power. My he451 is about 0.9 inches A/R by my measurement, with an hx52 sized wheel. The hx52 all seem to come with 16cm housing and the turbine wheel is large, so the A/R ratio is probably similar. That is why an hx55 starts to sound smart. Dougal has a spreadsheet to help predict backpressure based upon all the relevant variables, and there is a fair bit of info relevant to compounds on a 606 in that thread. Keep in mind he is quite conservative on AF ratios and all this is for 17:1, taking into consideration the turbo compressor efficiency, the intercooler efficiency, making some assumptions about VE etc (which of course are hard to pin down).
You will see with no wastegate on the larger turbo the backpressure starts to be about 2x the intake pressure at higher rpm and fuel levels, assuming a large A/R housing on the large turbo (which I turned out not to have). At those higher rpms and fuel levels, something like 60% of the exhaust flow is routed around the hx30 super, and a simple large single setup starts to perform better. But at 2000 rpm I have potentially 750-1000nm of torque and 400-500hp depending on 120-150cc fuel/1000 shots. The other (possibly better for other people) solution would be an hy35 9cm or similar, but we did not discuss that combo in the thread linked below. Stamsaas used hx30 and hx40 (16?) on his om605 in compound, so the hx30 should spool very early on the 606.
Basically I am around town and this is my daily driver so I wanted early spool and cannot make much use of the higher power available from my 7mm myna pump, which would do 170cc. 120cc is likely going to be the street version and crank it up to 150cc after I replace all the broken stuff e.g. the auto box and driveline. I am running conservative street tires so hopefully that will be the relief valve.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?79074-Om605-606-Mercedes
This post was last modified: 03-22-2016, 02:03 PM by atypicalguy.
atypicalguy
03-22-2016, 01:59 PM #58(03-03-2016, 10:14 AM)whipplem104 Hario that is kind of the idea. The problem is of course surviving the exh gas temp to do so. So a little bit more complicated way to do the same thing is to actually run the most amount of wastegating that you can to maintain your desired boost pressure. You could also do this more simply by opening at a desired rpm where you calculated the flow to be about the choke point of the smaller turbo. But basically we do something similar with rally cars running on the restrictor. It is on the intake of course but similar concept up top in the higher rpms. We go from really targeting boost pressure to opening the wastegate even though pressure is dropping to relieve exh back pressure. And we pick up really pretty high hp numbers from this. We check inlet vacuum at the shaft. But you could do something similar temporarily in the exh. and check the rpm/boost pressure that the exh pressure will just spike through the roof. Open the wastegate a bit before all the way.
Not to divert discussion from this forum but I did have an extended chat to Dougal over on 4btswaps about setting up a set of compounds on an om606 for my particular injection pump. We settled on hx30 and he451 (non-vgt), which works fine for 120cc, but in retrospect I probably should have chosen a higher A/R housing for the LP turbo, e.g. an hx55 or a large housing hx40 with a larger compressor, for higher power. My he451 is about 0.9 inches A/R by my measurement, with an hx52 sized wheel. The hx52 all seem to come with 16cm housing and the turbine wheel is large, so the A/R ratio is probably similar. That is why an hx55 starts to sound smart. Dougal has a spreadsheet to help predict backpressure based upon all the relevant variables, and there is a fair bit of info relevant to compounds on a 606 in that thread. Keep in mind he is quite conservative on AF ratios and all this is for 17:1, taking into consideration the turbo compressor efficiency, the intercooler efficiency, making some assumptions about VE etc (which of course are hard to pin down).
You will see with no wastegate on the larger turbo the backpressure starts to be about 2x the intake pressure at higher rpm and fuel levels, assuming a large A/R housing on the large turbo (which I turned out not to have). At those higher rpms and fuel levels, something like 60% of the exhaust flow is routed around the hx30 super, and a simple large single setup starts to perform better. But at 2000 rpm I have potentially 750-1000nm of torque and 400-500hp depending on 120-150cc fuel/1000 shots. The other (possibly better for other people) solution would be an hy35 9cm or similar, but we did not discuss that combo in the thread linked below. Stamsaas used hx30 and hx40 (16?) on his om605 in compound, so the hx30 should spool very early on the 606.
Basically I am around town and this is my daily driver so I wanted early spool and cannot make much use of the higher power available from my 7mm myna pump, which would do 170cc. 120cc is likely going to be the street version and crank it up to 150cc after I replace all the broken stuff e.g. the auto box and driveline. I am running conservative street tires so hopefully that will be the relief valve.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?79074-Om605-606-Mercedes
03-22-2016, 06:22 PM
#59
whipplem104
03-22-2016, 06:22 PM #59The problem I have with all of this targeting high boost at low rpm is the torque. You end up with unusable power for anything other than doing a burn out. Big lag is annoying but for the 450 hp levels a good setup and turbo selection can get you something that should easily spool by around 2200-2500 rpm. Or lower. Something like a 67/80. I think if we dropped our a/r down to target more like 5-600hp it would spool up in the mid 2000 rpm. It wants to at around 2500 rpm. It will make a couple psi. And honestly just getting the converter stall setup would solve all of this.
03-22-2016, 07:17 PM
#60
Just something to think about
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
high boost at low rpm makes gobs of low end torque, which can also wreak havoc on hard parts. 6.7 cummins are known to bed rods with small compounds that light quick, but survive fine with big, slower spooling singles.
Just something to think about
'82 300D -3" straight pipe, ALDA deleted, 3in1 glowshift gauge, HX30, egr-less manifold, A/W intercooler
'14 Ram 6.7l cummins -G56 handshaker, wishing it was deleted
03-22-2016, 09:39 PM
#61
whipplem104
03-22-2016, 09:39 PM #61Agreed. We are trying to keep peak tq below around 650lb/ft or preferably less.
03-23-2016, 03:34 AM
#62
(03-22-2016, 06:22 PM)whipplem104 The problem I have with all of this targeting high boost at low rpm is the torque. You end up with unusable power for anything other than doing a burn out. Big lag is annoying but for the 450 hp levels a good setup and turbo selection can get you something that should easily spool by around 2200-2500 rpm. Or lower. Something like a 67/80. I think if we dropped our a/r down to target more like 5-600hp it would spool up in the mid 2000 rpm. It wants to at around 2500 rpm. It will make a couple psi. And honestly just getting the converter stall setup would solve all of this.
I had a supercharged truck with 500/500 and it was a complete hoot around town, so that was what I was trying to replicate. In LA the traffic is always bad enough that you rarely get to cane it down the on ramp to the freeway. So there simply is no high speed driving for me and it is all about early boost and acceleration at lower speeds.
Seems like it would just be a matter of shifting earlier anyway, right? I don't see intrinsically why torque is less usable from 2000-5000 rpm than 3000-6000. The ve of the motor also goes way down with rpm so it is more fuel efficient to run conservative rpm. And you don't sound like a complete asshat revving your motor to its 3k-plus powerband and getting the maseratis and cops all excited in town.
I also did not want smoke. So an injection pump with good low boost behavior seemed important, as well as a nice ALDA setup. I figured myna has a good reputation among Fins, so start there.
They say DI motors are way higher cylinder pressure, but the 3.0 L in our 2014 Touareg is a dream to lug around town in. Quick spool vnt, good intercoolers and just a silent rush of torque. No shifting required, no high revving drama. It has 400 ft lbs and a very flat curve. And only 200 or 220 hp.
As for the rods bending I think that would require a bit more traction than I have available. if they bend I will order some from auto Verdi and redo the motor. Doubt it will happen, frankly. Other stuff will break first.
atypicalguy
03-23-2016, 03:34 AM #62(03-22-2016, 06:22 PM)whipplem104 The problem I have with all of this targeting high boost at low rpm is the torque. You end up with unusable power for anything other than doing a burn out. Big lag is annoying but for the 450 hp levels a good setup and turbo selection can get you something that should easily spool by around 2200-2500 rpm. Or lower. Something like a 67/80. I think if we dropped our a/r down to target more like 5-600hp it would spool up in the mid 2000 rpm. It wants to at around 2500 rpm. It will make a couple psi. And honestly just getting the converter stall setup would solve all of this.
I had a supercharged truck with 500/500 and it was a complete hoot around town, so that was what I was trying to replicate. In LA the traffic is always bad enough that you rarely get to cane it down the on ramp to the freeway. So there simply is no high speed driving for me and it is all about early boost and acceleration at lower speeds.
Seems like it would just be a matter of shifting earlier anyway, right? I don't see intrinsically why torque is less usable from 2000-5000 rpm than 3000-6000. The ve of the motor also goes way down with rpm so it is more fuel efficient to run conservative rpm. And you don't sound like a complete asshat revving your motor to its 3k-plus powerband and getting the maseratis and cops all excited in town.
I also did not want smoke. So an injection pump with good low boost behavior seemed important, as well as a nice ALDA setup. I figured myna has a good reputation among Fins, so start there.
They say DI motors are way higher cylinder pressure, but the 3.0 L in our 2014 Touareg is a dream to lug around town in. Quick spool vnt, good intercoolers and just a silent rush of torque. No shifting required, no high revving drama. It has 400 ft lbs and a very flat curve. And only 200 or 220 hp.
As for the rods bending I think that would require a bit more traction than I have available. if they bend I will order some from auto Verdi and redo the motor. Doubt it will happen, frankly. Other stuff will break first.
atypicalguy
04-22-2016, 06:55 AM #64FRAS what is the latest on the 605 compound project? Any photos? Thanks.
04-27-2016, 01:47 AM
#66
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
Sorry guys. Update will come, just to many manifolds to build haha.
F-tune Performance
I can help you out with all your manual transmission, clutch, flywheel, intake and exhaust manifold issues.
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