HE221W Vs. HX30W
HE221W Vs. HX30W
Not sure if it's been covered before. I know Alcaid is the expert on this. What would make one pick the HE221W over the HX30W? I know the flange on the Hx30w bolts right to the om617a manifold. I currently have an Hx30w from Alcaid with a 7.5mm pump. 65mph is about 11-13psi boost at 2400-2500rpm. Would I benefit from the HE221? This is in an a 4X4 Jeep thats rarely sees 3500rpm.
The 221 will flow more air but it has a smaller turbine wheel. However, since it spins much faster to make boost it may actually flow as much out as the HX30. The 221 is basically a copy of a TD04 Mitsu turbo, but with a newer turbine design but less efficient compressor. I have a TD05 16g with a 10cm housing for sale soon if that interests you, flows about 1 lb more than the 221 but has a bigger turbine wheel. May not be best for only down low power though.
i am running a 221w and i have seen a HX30 on a 617. the 221w lights a few hundred rpm sooner im over 10psi @ 1800 however while the compressor flows a max of around 33-38lbs/minute at a PR of ~3 (i have seen a few graphs that show different numbers) the turbine begins to choke a bit sooner than the HX30. i have the 6cm housing on the 221w same as a hx30 however it is also available in 7 and 8.5cm housing options which are more common than the 6cm. there are a few versions of the hx30 the largest one the "super" actually flows a bit more than the 221w but again if you are interested in low down spool and torque i might consider a 221w instead. i am looking into getting a 7cm housing for my 221w as it falls on its face a little bit past 4K so if you end up getting one with the more common and cheaper 7cm i might trade you.
(02-05-2017, 03:07 PM)R-3350 i am running a 221w and i have seen a HX30 on a 617. the 221w lights a few hundred rpm sooner im over 10psi @ 1800 however while the compressor flows a max of around 33-38lbs/minute at a PR of ~3 (i have seen a few graphs that show different numbers) the turbine begins to choke a bit sooner than the HX30. i have the 6cm housing on the 221w same as a hx30 however it is also available in 7 and 8.5cm housing options which are more common than the 6cm. there are a few versions of the hx30 the largest one the "super" actually flows a bit more than the 221w but again if you are interested in low down spool and torque i might consider a 221w instead. i am looking into getting a 7cm housing for my 221w as it falls on its face a little bit past 4K so if you end up getting one with the more common and cheaper 7cm i might trade you.Great info, thank you. I'm at 6-10psi at 2000rpm, after that it's instant boost, 20+psi at 2100rpm. Maybe I should keep my Hx over the HE. But 200rpm earlier boost does make a difference.
(02-05-2017, 03:07 PM)R-3350 i am running a 221w and i have seen a HX30 on a 617. the 221w lights a few hundred rpm sooner im over 10psi @ 1800 however while the compressor flows a max of around 33-38lbs/minute at a PR of ~3 (i have seen a few graphs that show different numbers) the turbine begins to choke a bit sooner than the HX30. i have the 6cm housing on the 221w same as a hx30 however it is also available in 7 and 8.5cm housing options which are more common than the 6cm. there are a few versions of the hx30 the largest one the "super" actually flows a bit more than the 221w but again if you are interested in low down spool and torque i might consider a 221w instead. i am looking into getting a 7cm housing for my 221w as it falls on its face a little bit past 4K so if you end up getting one with the more common and cheaper 7cm i might trade you.Great info, thank you. I'm at 6-10psi at 2000rpm, after that it's instant boost, 20+psi at 2100rpm. Maybe I should keep my Hx over the HE. But 200rpm earlier boost does make a difference.
something else to factor is you are running a 7.5mm pump while im running a stock 5.5 turned up to around 62cc/1K. the 221 with more fueling should light past 10psi at around 1500 or lower. and maxed out it might support around 250ish HP. it is a better turbo for bottom end than the HX30 but the 30's larger turbine and more efficient compressor makes it a more efficient turbo over all. still i see 1:1 boost to drive pressure up to around 10psi after which drive overtakes it to a max of around 1.6:1 at 4K.
The 30 may be more efficient but the 221 will still support more hp in theory, I recall Alcaid saying that on a 605 the 44mm HX30 is good for 230-240 while the 221 would flow up to 260 hp. A larger housing than 6 would be best to keep the exhaust pressure down of course. I wish I could compare my TD05 to the HX30 I currently have..
depends on what kind of intercooler you are running the housing size and a few more factors. still that sounds very high for a steady state cruse im running 2700@ 65 and egt is around 550-700*F depending on wind and grade. with a 7 or 8.5cm housing i would expect it to stay the same or slightly lower but again thats awfully high both in egt and boost for just cruising. ideally you should see 5lbs or less at cruise below 70 as it only takes around 50HP to maintain speed and thats counting on aerodynamics like a brick. modern low C/D cars practically use around 25-35HP to maintain 60MPH on flat ground without wind.
(02-05-2017, 10:58 PM)R-3350 depends on what kind of intercooler you are running the housing size and a few more factors. still that sounds very high for a steady state cruse im running 2700@ 65 and egt is around 550-700*F depending on wind and grade. with a 7 or 8.5cm housing i would expect it to stay the same or slightly lower but again thats awfully high both in egt and boost for just cruising. ideally you should see 5lbs or less at cruise below 70 as it only takes around 50HP to maintain speed and thats counting on aerodynamics like a brick. modern low C/D cars practically use around 25-35HP to maintain 60MPH on flat ground without wind.You don't know brick until you drive a jeep cherokee...this is in a heavy 4X4 with 33" tires. The factory 300D would run 65mph at about 2800-3000rpm, boost was 9-12psi and egt 1050-1150 continuous, with 5mm pump. I've owned and driven three, they all measure the same. According to the FSM these numbers are actually low. FSM states continuous egt upto 1200*F. All numbers I have stated are in Fahrenheit. I get aboabout 2mpg less in the Jeep 7.5mm pump.
(02-05-2017, 10:58 PM)R-3350 depends on what kind of intercooler you are running the housing size and a few more factors. still that sounds very high for a steady state cruse im running 2700@ 65 and egt is around 550-700*F depending on wind and grade. with a 7 or 8.5cm housing i would expect it to stay the same or slightly lower but again thats awfully high both in egt and boost for just cruising. ideally you should see 5lbs or less at cruise below 70 as it only takes around 50HP to maintain speed and thats counting on aerodynamics like a brick. modern low C/D cars practically use around 25-35HP to maintain 60MPH on flat ground without wind.You don't know brick until you drive a jeep cherokee...this is in a heavy 4X4 with 33" tires. The factory 300D would run 65mph at about 2800-3000rpm, boost was 9-12psi and egt 1050-1150 continuous, with 5mm pump. I've owned and driven three, they all measure the same. According to the FSM these numbers are actually low. FSM states continuous egt upto 1200*F. All numbers I have stated are in Fahrenheit. I get aboabout 2mpg less in the Jeep 7.5mm pump.
(02-05-2017, 06:53 PM)awsrock The 30 may be more efficient but the 221 will still support more hp in theory, I recall Alcaid saying that on a 605 the 44mm HX30 is good for 230-240 while the 221 would flow up to 260 hp. A larger housing than 6 would be best to keep the exhaust pressure down of course. I wish I could compare my TD05 to the HX30 I currently have..
any more experience comparing TD05 or TD04 with the Hx30 or He221?
I´m curious if there is a Mitsu Tdo.. option equally performing to the He221.
(02-05-2017, 06:53 PM)awsrock The 30 may be more efficient but the 221 will still support more hp in theory, I recall Alcaid saying that on a 605 the 44mm HX30 is good for 230-240 while the 221 would flow up to 260 hp. A larger housing than 6 would be best to keep the exhaust pressure down of course. I wish I could compare my TD05 to the HX30 I currently have..
any more experience comparing TD05 or TD04 with the Hx30 or He221?
I´m curious if there is a Mitsu Tdo.. option equally performing to the He221.
I'm thinking the He221 with a 7 cm housing is the better choice for both of my engine types (OM605.960 & OM662.920, & Isuzu 4BD1T).
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread...1W-Results
and, this post is extensive comparing various compressors and maps -but a little more specific to the 3.9 isuzu application.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread...Prediction.
Cheers steu
I have mercedes diesels and Isuzu powered diesel in my Landrover 130. Have been watching these two threads on another forum. Some of the material may be useful here.
I'm thinking the He221 with a 7 cm housing is the better choice for both of my engine types (OM605.960 & OM662.920, & Isuzu 4BD1T).
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread...1W-Results
and, this post is extensive comparing various compressors and maps -but a little more specific to the 3.9 isuzu application.
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread...Prediction.
Cheers steu
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
im not sure about the HX30. but now that im running the 8mm M pump i noticed the turbo doesn't light gradually its more of a boot to the back when the alda starts actuating @ around 2100 rpm, off boost its just a little bit peppier than stock. mind you this is a 617 so slightly different but the 221 should light a little bit faster and lower in the rpm band the real difference i would expect would be transient response. with both wheels being appreciably smaller on the 221 vs the 30 it should have a much quicker response. that being said what trans are you running/ what is your average rpm when you go off-roading? if you are doing a lot of rock crawling you may need to go to a higher rear end ratio. its a up and down side to the mercedes IDI diesels that they love to rev it makes making a lot of power easier but it also means they don't have the brutal torque right off idle that most other diesels do.
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
(11-07-2017, 10:05 AM)R-3350 im not sure about the HX30. but now that im running the 8mm M pump i noticed the turbo doesn't light gradually its more of a boot to the back when the alda starts actuating @ around 2100 rpm, off boost its just a little bit peppier than stock. mind you this is a 617 so slightly different but the 221 should light a little bit faster and lower in the rpm band the real difference i would expect would be transient response. with both wheels being appreciably smaller on the 221 vs the 30 it should have a much quicker response. that being said what trans are you running/ what is your average rpm when you go off-roading? if you are doing a lot of rock crawling you may need to go to a higher rear end ratio. its a up and down side to the mercedes IDI diesels that they love to rev it makes making a lot of power easier but it also means they don't have the brutal torque right off idle that most other diesels do.
Thanks R-3350!
Not sure if I made mention but I am running a 617 as well.
Gearing:
- Transmission is a Land Rover R380 5 speed. I'm not sure the gearing of it but guessing 3.39 1st -> 0.77 5th
- Transfer Case is an LT230 (1.2:1 Hi Range; 3.32:1 Lo Range)
- 4.1 Toyota Gears in the axles
- 255/85/16 (33.5") tires but looking to install some 35x10.5 SSR's at some point
I notice when driving around town that coming off stop it's not the snappiest. I have been playing around with air intake. Scrubs has told me that a high CFM air filter is a must. The one I have on it now is a WIX that is rated for 350CFM. I'm trying to find one that will fit and offer good filtration and a high CFM rating but they are hard to find and I don't like spending a bunch of money just to test fit.
I find for driving off-road I try to find that balance where I have engine and drivetrain speed slow to not break anything and pick a smooth line but have a little juice if you need it. In low-range I'll pick the gear of the transmission depending on the steepness/roughness of the terrain. I would think 1,500 rpms would be it but my last trip just couldn't find anything that felt smooth. On open roads in Hi-Range between trail spots it felt good that weekend (4th gear, going 40-45 feels like it's the happiest).
The Rover 3.9 V8 I had in my other Defender worked well but was flaky about running. I went into the OM617 thinking that it would have similar power delivery but more depending running and a little better fuel economy/range.
(11-07-2017, 10:05 AM)R-3350 im not sure about the HX30. but now that im running the 8mm M pump i noticed the turbo doesn't light gradually its more of a boot to the back when the alda starts actuating @ around 2100 rpm, off boost its just a little bit peppier than stock. mind you this is a 617 so slightly different but the 221 should light a little bit faster and lower in the rpm band the real difference i would expect would be transient response. with both wheels being appreciably smaller on the 221 vs the 30 it should have a much quicker response. that being said what trans are you running/ what is your average rpm when you go off-roading? if you are doing a lot of rock crawling you may need to go to a higher rear end ratio. its a up and down side to the mercedes IDI diesels that they love to rev it makes making a lot of power easier but it also means they don't have the brutal torque right off idle that most other diesels do.
Thanks R-3350!
Not sure if I made mention but I am running a 617 as well.
Gearing:
- Transmission is a Land Rover R380 5 speed. I'm not sure the gearing of it but guessing 3.39 1st -> 0.77 5th
- Transfer Case is an LT230 (1.2:1 Hi Range; 3.32:1 Lo Range)
- 4.1 Toyota Gears in the axles
- 255/85/16 (33.5") tires but looking to install some 35x10.5 SSR's at some point
I notice when driving around town that coming off stop it's not the snappiest. I have been playing around with air intake. Scrubs has told me that a high CFM air filter is a must. The one I have on it now is a WIX that is rated for 350CFM. I'm trying to find one that will fit and offer good filtration and a high CFM rating but they are hard to find and I don't like spending a bunch of money just to test fit.
I find for driving off-road I try to find that balance where I have engine and drivetrain speed slow to not break anything and pick a smooth line but have a little juice if you need it. In low-range I'll pick the gear of the transmission depending on the steepness/roughness of the terrain. I would think 1,500 rpms would be it but my last trip just couldn't find anything that felt smooth. On open roads in Hi-Range between trail spots it felt good that weekend (4th gear, going 40-45 feels like it's the happiest).
The Rover 3.9 V8 I had in my other Defender worked well but was flaky about running. I went into the OM617 thinking that it would have similar power delivery but more depending running and a little better fuel economy/range.
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
with the HX30 maxed out around 30psi you will need an air filter that can flow somewhere around 500-600 CFM to get the best filtration and limit inlet restriction. as for the gearing you really want to be around 2000-2500 rpm as peak torque stock is @2450 and every dyno i have seen of 617's with larger pumps and turbos shows peak torque at 2750-3250 rpm. its not a 4 or 6bt its perfectly happy at 4500rpm all day long, i regularly take mine over 5000 sometimes a little past 6000 rpm. mind you you will lose some fuel economy by pushing the gear ratios higher but as long as you can cruse at 60 mph doing less than 3500rpm you should be ok. my HE221W does make measurable boost by 1600 maybe 5psi or so, but its not an rpm section i am ever in for any appreciable time as it usually pops the tires free the second it has enough boost to push the alda
85 300D om617: 8mm M pump 175cc 5200rpm, holset he221w @ 30psi, large A2W ic, compounds on the way.
(11-07-2017, 07:40 PM)R-3350 with the HX30 maxed out around 30psi you will need an air filter that can flow somewhere around 500-600 CFM to get the best filtration and limit inlet restriction. as for the gearing you really want to be around 2000-2500 rpm as peak torque stock is @2450 and every dyno i have seen of 617's with larger pumps and turbos shows peak torque at 2750-3250 rpm. its not a 4 or 6bt its perfectly happy at 4500rpm all day long, i regularly take mine over 5000 sometimes a little past 6000 rpm. mind you you will lose some fuel economy by pushing the gear ratios higher but as long as you can cruse at 60 mph doing less than 3500rpm you should be ok. my HE221W does make measurable boost by 1600 maybe 5psi or so, but its not an rpm section i am ever in for any appreciable time as it usually pops the tires free the second it has enough boost to push the alda
My next move is to get a higher flowing air filter and see what that does. I'm thinking one of the AFE Big Honkin' Air Filter (6637).
I've been researching the TD04HL turbos. It seems the Volvo versions have similiar T3 mount and are readily available on eBay. It also seems like there are plenty of parts for them from vendors like Kinugawa.
(11-07-2017, 07:40 PM)R-3350 with the HX30 maxed out around 30psi you will need an air filter that can flow somewhere around 500-600 CFM to get the best filtration and limit inlet restriction. as for the gearing you really want to be around 2000-2500 rpm as peak torque stock is @2450 and every dyno i have seen of 617's with larger pumps and turbos shows peak torque at 2750-3250 rpm. its not a 4 or 6bt its perfectly happy at 4500rpm all day long, i regularly take mine over 5000 sometimes a little past 6000 rpm. mind you you will lose some fuel economy by pushing the gear ratios higher but as long as you can cruse at 60 mph doing less than 3500rpm you should be ok. my HE221W does make measurable boost by 1600 maybe 5psi or so, but its not an rpm section i am ever in for any appreciable time as it usually pops the tires free the second it has enough boost to push the alda
My next move is to get a higher flowing air filter and see what that does. I'm thinking one of the AFE Big Honkin' Air Filter (6637).
I've been researching the TD04HL turbos. It seems the Volvo versions have similiar T3 mount and are readily available on eBay. It also seems like there are plenty of parts for them from vendors like Kinugawa.
The HX30 is a tad big for the OM617. The HE-series is absolutely the better upgrade. Size the HE turbo according to your power goals and what RPM you want it at.
For anyone reading this post, I've run extensive testing on dozens of turbo setups with the OM617. Results available here: https://www.doomsdaydiesel.net/tech-info
The HX30 is a tad big for the OM617. The HE-series is absolutely the better upgrade. Size the HE turbo according to your power goals and what RPM you want it at.
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