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+--- Thread: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control (/showthread.php?tid=348)
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VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 05-04-2009
This thread is in moderation, please PM me for details.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-14-2009
Time to bring this idea forward. The parts are ordered and I should begin testing within the next two weeks.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - winmutt - 07-14-2009
Check out "dia" for a pretty easy to use flowchart type tool. Do you have a blow up of that image?
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Motorhead - 07-14-2009
I bet you could use a boost controller, how many vacume ports control the actuator/s ?
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-14-2009
(07-14-2009, 07:51 PM)Motorhead I bet you could use a boost controllerThats what I will be using. Its the same valve that the TDI modders use to prevent boost spikes with their VNT, I'm just using it to completely control the turbo.
Quote:how many vacume ports control the actuator/s ?There is 1 actuator and 3 boost controllers. The roller lever valves take the place of electric solenoids to simplify everything.
The major issue is the lever valves have a 30-150psi operating range spec. I won't know how well they work with 0-20psi of boost until I have them.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Motorhead - 07-14-2009
How much vacume storage do you have and how many inches does it go to?
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-15-2009
I'll be using the reservoir from the door locks (above the fuel tank). Being at 5200' elevation, I can only get down to 16"Hg.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Motorhead - 07-15-2009
OH I have to remember your at low baro., I did a Ford GT that had to run in the high desert and it did not make vacume very often so I used a electric vacume pump. We converted the engine from the supercharger to a pair of 70mm turbos with alot of overlap in the cams so it only made vacume on decel, the pump and the vacume reservoir worked good enough at 6,400+' to keep the boost controller's active.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-18-2009
(07-14-2009, 02:31 PM)winmutt Do you have a blow up of that image?
I got all the parts today and I'll work on putting it together this weekend.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - tomnik - 07-21-2009
FI, the weekend is over.
Any news?
Tom
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-22-2009
I've got it planned out but installing the VNT onto my 300D took priority this weekend. Might not get to do much with the system until August after the races.
Its looking good though. I may need stronger springs to counter the force of the vacuum.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - tomnik - 07-22-2009
I like your idea it makes sense.
Interesting the springs in the valves...
Hopefully they will work with the vacuum at all.
Otherwise just add a boost controller with a weaker spring (strong enough that the vac can not open it, weaker than the others) in between the valve junction and the VGT.
(is a HE541.. overkill? one is on German ebay right now)
Tom
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-22-2009
I may have to work on it this weekend after all. I need to get boost above 11psi.
(07-22-2009, 02:53 AM)tomnik (is a HE541.. overkill? one is on German ebay right now)
An HE541 is for 12-14L diesels, a 617 wouldn't get it to spool up.
EDIT: This one? http://cgi.ebay.de/HOLSET-VGT-HE531V-IVECO-Turbolader-LKW_W0QQitemZ230358935301
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - tomnik - 07-22-2009
(07-22-2009, 03:17 AM)ForcedInduction This one? http://cgi.ebay.de/HOLSET-VGT-HE531V-IVECO-Turbolader-LKW_W0QQitemZ230358935301
Yes. I am not familiar with the Holset seizes and numbers.
Anyway I got my GT23 (320 CDI) and a GT22 (Audi 3.0.TDI).
Tom
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-22-2009
(07-22-2009, 05:12 AM)tomnik Anyway I got my GT23 (320 CDI)
Thats a very good one. I certainly wouldn't mind having one myself but they are rare over here since it was only on one model for 2 years.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - tomnik - 07-22-2009
...also rare over here. This was the only one I saw since looking for one.
It was about 100 $ and new (ebay).
In your layout the boost controllers have to be precisely (and individual) adjusted, right?
The boost level the VGT sees depends on the boost coming from the manifold (modulated by the boost controllers) AND on throttle position.
WOT from a stop would start with max. VGT (let's call it like that) BUT also with direct access of increasing boost to decrease VGT since the egr cam remains in WOT position. Maybe I did not fully understand it.
What happens when you lift your foot after a hard acceleration?
How can you say (in post #1) that at a certain boost level the roller valves are in a certain status?
What happens when you suddenly press the pedal after cruising?
Just want to join your brain journey.
Tom
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-22-2009
(07-22-2009, 07:52 PM)tomnik In your layout the boost controllers have to be precisely (and individual) adjusted, right?Yes. I'll have to tune one stage at a time.
Quote:What happens when you lift your foot after a hard acceleration?The lowest setting controller will pressurize the actuator lines and open the vanes to limit boost to the lowest pressure.
Quote:How can you say (in post #1) that at a certain boost level the roller valves are in a certain status?Its based on throttle position. The EGR cam (what the white plastic vacuum valves ride on) has three steps. Both open, lower closed and both closed.
Quote:What happens when you suddenly press the pedal after cruising?The actuator line will see full vacuum and the vanes will be closed to build boost up to the current setting.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - tomnik - 07-23-2009
(07-22-2009, 10:33 PM)ForcedInduction The lowest setting controller will pressurize the actuator lines and open the vanes to limit boost to the lowest pressure.
surge?
Quote:Its based on throttle position. The EGR cam (what the white plastic vacuum valves ride on) has three steps. Both open, lower closed and both closed.
So boost supply to the VGT will come from different sources the moment you press the pedal. The controllers need to be well adjusted to avoid jumping in boost seen by the vanes. Not clear if it matters if there are such jumps.
Quote:The actuator line will see full vacuum and the vanes will be closed to build boost up to the current setting.
Yes, I forgot the 3rd boost line without valve.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-23-2009
(07-23-2009, 12:21 AM)tomnik surge?The vanes should already be open during a hard acceleration. It shouldn't be much different from lifting off with a normal turbo.
Quote:So boost supply to the VGT will come from different sources the moment you press the pedalBoost and vacuum all come from/goto the same places. The controllers all T back together before going to the actuator. The roller valves only block flow from the controller(s), making the next highest setting controller flow air instead but opening at a higher boost pressure.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-23-2009
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-28-2009
Here it is!
It works better than I hoped. The valves are set at 5-10-15psi and stay +/- 1psi depending on engine load. There is a 1/16" orifice and after some testing I decided not to use the reservoir, the vacuum pump seems to keep up plenty well on its own. 5/32 hose is used except from the 4-way hose to the actuator (1/4" tube). The actuator starts pulling the vane lever at 3", its all the way down at 11" and my vacuum system peaks at 15" (high altitude). I bought a variety of springs to use but they aren't needed for my boost range, once I need 20+psi I'll have to swap the high pressure spring.
I also opened the vane screw 1 turn to get rid of some surge when it was trying to go above 5psi below 1500rpm.
The controller lives in the cruise actuator's old home, secured by longer bracket bolts. The controllers have 5/32 copper pipe sweated into the top hole to work as a barb. I considered punching brass barb fittings into them but I didn't want to rely on friction to keep it in place.
Push fittings are used to make valve adjustments quicker. They seal just as well with vacuum as with 120psi air. I removed the spring from the linkage arm, it had too much throttle resistance with the IP arm spring also in place.
Now the only question is durability of the hardware. I may need to make a cover for the roller valves to keep them clean/dry.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - DeliveryValve - 07-28-2009
Looking good!
(07-28-2009, 07:42 AM)ForcedInduction ....
Now the only question is durability of the hardware. I may need to make a cover for the roller valves to keep them clean/dry.
I am glad your testing this because that is my question. I was wondering how they would hold up on with the heat since the max temp is 160° F.
Item Manual Air Control Valve
Type Miniature
Port Size (In.) 1/8 NPT
Actuator/Return Short Roller Lever/Spring
Number of Ways 3
Number of Positions 2
Max. Pressure (PSI) 150
CFM 7.5
Max. Temp. Range (F) 32° to 160°
Coefficient of Volume 0.195
Body Zinc Die Cast
Length (In.) 1 3/4
Height (In.) 1 5/8
Width (In.) 11/16
Why not use the factory transmission vacuum valves? Is it not robust enough?
.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 07-28-2009
(07-28-2009, 09:09 AM)DeliveryValve I was wondering how they would hold up on with the heat since the max temp is 160° F.Its got airflow from the fan and the gap from base to the valve cover.
Quote:Why not use the factory transmission vacuum valves? Is it not robust enough?That would be kind of boring wouldn't it?
To be honest...I didn't think of that.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - atypicalguy - 08-01-2009
OK has anyone else mounted one of these things to a 123/ 617 and is the electronic method any easier? My daily driver is an 85 300td but I have had this idea for awhile and am looking for an established solution.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 08-01-2009
(08-01-2009, 12:37 AM)atypicalguy OK has anyone else mounted one of these things to a 123/ 617I've done it twice (as seen in the above pictures) and several others have done it at least once.
Quote:and is the electronic method any easier?To me, no. But, I don't have any custom electronics or programming experience so the completely-mechanical approach is much easier for me.
Electronics do have advantages though, like the ability to adapt output to conditions rather than be fixed to one point or work in steps.
Quote:My daily driver is an 85 300td but I have had this idea for awhile and am looking for an established solution.It works very well and has a big impact on daily driving quality. My first system was on the 240 for 3 years until I transferred it to the 300 and installed this control system, its been a little over a week and zero problems.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 09-07-2009
I really want to avoid any kind of electronics on my engine, but I'm almost out of options. I need more boost but I can't have more than 15psi below 3000rpm or the turbo will surge. But, I can't just set another throttle position boost stage because I need to be able to mash the throttle without having to think "Am I at a safe RPM for full boost?"
An RPM switch is what I came up with.
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7erz1/id1.html
http://mysite.verizon.net/vze7erz1/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/arws.pdf
That will let me install another boost stage and automatically activate 20psi at 3250rpm.
What is the tach signal type/range?
Any better ideas than an RPM switch? Its a lot cheaper than a second turbo!
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - willbhere4u - 09-07-2009
you could always add a momentary switch like they do for NOS on your steering wheel for that little extra boost pressure when you need or want it!
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 09-08-2009
Bob (techguy512, the person who makes the updated replacement tach amp and wiper modules) had some very interesting information. The only down side is changing the set point wouldn't be nearly as easy as dip switches.
Quote:Hi Lance,
What you're asking for is actually pretty easy. Several different approaches can be taken....
1) Software can be added to the existing tach amp to trigger a signal to activate your solenoid. I would
delete the "self test" to be sure I had enough code space to do this. The upside to this is it's very simple
and no external "box" would be needed. The downside would be that the setpoint would be hard to
adjust (would prefer a fixed engage/disengage) AND the applicability would be limited to those models
that control the tach with an amp - the newer models that use the EGR computer couldn't use this.
2) A small external box could be designed that looks at the pulse train to the gauge itself. This would be
pretty much universal, usable in all models that drive the tach with one pulse per rev. It could be easily
adjustable, with a simple switch and LED display that would allow the engage point to be adjusted in
10 steps from 2K rpm to 4.5K rpm in 250rpm increments.
In either case I would suggest some hysteresis in the engage/disengage. For example, engage at 3250 and
disengage at 2750 to 3000.
Anyway, let me know what you think would be best....
Rgds,
Bob
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 09-17-2009
Tried to adjust the third stage past 15psi, no go. I need to get a stronger spring.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 09-18-2009
The stronger spring got it up to 17psi (for now) and still has room left for more.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - winmutt - 09-18-2009
Sweet. How are EGT?
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 09-18-2009
Still gets up to 1250.
I know some of my nozzles were heat blued when I put them in. Even though they pop tested perfect I've got a clean set from an SDL to replace them.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-20-2009
I am toying around with a controller and came up with this:
I think it will work, any thoughts?
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 10-20-2009
Unless there is something to trigger the valves closed, it looks like it will stay at 5psi.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Kiwibacon - 10-20-2009
(10-20-2009, 05:22 PM)Rudolf_Diesel I am toying around with a controller and came up with this:
I think it will work, any thoughts?
I don't see any method of tuning to get your set boost levels, I also think it's unnecessarily complicated.
Throw away all the shuttle valves, run your pressure actuated valves in parrallel (i.e. T them together)
Max vacuum = max boost (this is all valves shut), opening more valves will reduces this.
All valves open = min vacuum and lowest boost.
You need an adjustable orifice on the vacuum and possibly on each boost actuated valve.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-20-2009
(10-20-2009, 05:28 PM)ForcedInduction Unless there is something to trigger the valves closed, it looks like it will stay at 5psi.
My schematic of the shuttle valve is very simplistic. The theory is that the vacuum signal will assit in keeping the shuttle valves closed on the high side of the dawes valve. Also the orientation of the valve will assist in keeping it closed on the high side.
When there is no boost vacuum will keep the shuttle valves closed. As boost comes up to 5 psi it moves the actuator. When the boost reaches 10 psi it will shift the shuttle valve to close of the port of the 1st valve and flow to the actuator. as the boost reaches 15 psi it will shift the shuttle valve to close the port of the 5 and 10 psi and flow to the actuator. As the boost increases to 20 psi it acts directly on the actuator. When there is no boost the vacuum acts to move the actuator back to the closed vane position.
It is essentially the same as FI's system with the addition of an additional dawes valve and passive switches instead of roller switches.
It doesn't seem to complicated, but I tend to over engineer everything anyway.
(10-20-2009, 07:08 PM)Kiwibacon(10-20-2009, 05:22 PM)Rudolf_Diesel I am toying around with a controller and came up with this:
I think it will work, any thoughts?
I don't see any method of tuning to get your set boost levels, I also think it's unnecessarily complicated.
Throw away all the shuttle valves, run your pressure actuated valves in parrallel (i.e. T them together)
Max vacuum = max boost (this is all valves shut), opening more valves will reduces this.
All valves open = min vacuum and lowest boost.
You need an adjustable orifice on the vacuum and possibly on each boost actuated valve.
The tuning of the boost levels would be preset with the dawes valves, one at 5, 10, 15, & 20.
They are run in parallel, the manifold is not the intake manfiold, but rather a block to mount the valves and fed a boost signal via a hose form the intake manifold.
The vacuum circuit is what I need to work on...
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 10-21-2009
There is no way to control it though. Boost will build straight to 20psi.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Kiwibacon - 10-21-2009
(10-20-2009, 11:54 PM)Rudolf_Diesel The tuning of the boost levels would be preset with the dawes valves, one at 5, 10, 15, & 20.
You need to be able to adjust the flow-rate through each valve. Having them opening at a set pressure will likely not be enough to tune the system. Most likely they'll just drop the pressure in the manifold behind them to make themselves shut off again and flutter.
(10-20-2009, 11:54 PM)Rudolf_Diesel They are run in parallel, the manifold is not the intake manfiold, but rather a block to mount the valves and fed a boost signal via a hose form the intake manifold.
The vacuum circuit is what I need to work on...
They aren't run in parrallel because of the shuttle valves, which are redundant anyway. Get rid of those, simplify the plumbing a lot (i.e. manifold joining the other side of the valves).
All valves shut - full vacuum, fully closed vanes, max boost.
Valves open progressively to increase flow through the vacuum orifice, thus reducing vacuum and opening the vanes.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-21-2009
Aside form the plumbing, it is a prototype afterall, is this what you are referencing?
From what forced has said about his valves and numerous others, they have had pretty good success with this type of valve.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Kiwibacon - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 06:25 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Aside form the plumbing, it is a prototype afterall, is this what you are referencing?
From what forced has said about his valves and numerous others, they have had pretty good success with this type of valve.
You'll need an orifice on the vacuum side (preferably adjustable) but otherwise yes.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 10-21-2009
No. I still see nothing connecting boost pressure to engine load, throttle position or rpm.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 06:28 PM)Kiwibacon(10-21-2009, 06:25 PM)Rudolf_Diesel Aside form the plumbing, it is a prototype afterall, is this what you are referencing?
From what forced has said about his valves and numerous others, they have had pretty good success with this type of valve.
You'll need an orifice on the vacuum side (preferably adjustable) but otherwise yes.
I plan on using a needle valve for the vacuum, just trying to get the hardware dialed in on the pressure side.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Kiwibacon - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 06:54 PM)ForcedInduction No. I still see nothing connecting boost pressure to engine load, throttle position or rpm.
I figured those valves would open sequentially as boost is reached. Providing a stepped, but proportional method of keeping boost as a set level.
I don't see the point in controlling vanes based on rpm, engine load is covered with the boost signal coming in (higher load = more boost), throttle position's relevance depends on your injector governor. I think the best control would be referencing required boost to injector rack position.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 07:18 PM)Kiwibacon engine load is covered with the boost signal coming in (higher load = more boost)Not with a VNT. 20psi is easy to get just revving in neutral.
Quote:throttle position's relevance depends on your injector governor.Which is why mine is connected with an adjustable rod. To change the throttle:boost relation I just have to adjust rod length instead of the valve bracket.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 06:54 PM)ForcedInduction No. I still see nothing connecting boost pressure to engine load, throttle position or rpm.
You are using switches to control, essentially shutoff, the lower pressure valves correct?
I am going off of your original sketch and it assumed that my original design (shuttle valves) was receiving the boost signal as you are from the intake manifold. I just was toying with the idea of using the valves in lieu of the roller switches, a more passive system.
Any boost signal in my design(s) is from intake manifold.
My head is spinning
As far as RPM, well it is just not that sofisticated.
I found this site for some reference:
http://www.chaz.yellowfoot.org/Manual%20Boost%20Controller.htm
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Kiwibacon - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 07:23 PM)ForcedInduction(10-21-2009, 07:18 PM)Kiwibacon engine load is covered with the boost signal coming in (higher load = more boost)Not with a VNT. 20psi is easy to get just revving in neutral.
Revving how high?
I can get 10psi revving my 4wd engine in neutral, but only because there's enough load on the engine accelerating itself to produce that much boost.
If you hold steady revs in neutral (say 3000rpm) what level of boost do you get?
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 07:40 PM)Kiwibacon If you hold steady revs in neutral (say 3000rpm) what level of boost do you get?
This is with my old dual actuator system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM7SNOc3nMY
Right side is exhaust pressure.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Kiwibacon - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 10:57 PM)ForcedInduction(10-21-2009, 07:40 PM)Kiwibacon If you hold steady revs in neutral (say 3000rpm) what level of boost do you get?
This is with my old dual actuator system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM7SNOc3nMY
Right side is exhaust pressure.
Any idea what revs gave the 7.5/18psi readings?
Maybe it's just me, but I see boost when holding steady revs in neutral as a good thing. Trying to launch a 4wd up a gravel hill you need torque from the get-go. Waiting for the boost compensator to open up the fuel pump gets old.
Yes I could disable the boost compensator, but I'm against smokers.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - ForcedInduction - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 11:10 PM)Kiwibacon Any idea what revs gave the 7.5/18psi readings?Around 3000rpm.
I just made this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4VnYirovn8
The exhaust pressure is not connected yet and the vanes are opened up a bit over the other video's to reduce surge with the automatic transmission.
First is a steady 3000rpm. Second a punch of the throttle. Third is steady 2000rpm.
RE: VNT/VGT mechanical vacuum control - Kiwibacon - 10-21-2009
(10-21-2009, 11:17 PM)ForcedInduction(10-21-2009, 11:10 PM)Kiwibacon Any idea what revs gave the 7.5/18psi readings?Around 3000rpm.
I just made this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4VnYirovn8
The exhaust pressure is not connected yet and the vanes are opened up a bit over the other video's to reduce surge with the automatic transmission.
First is a steady 3000rpm. Second a punch of the throttle. Third is steady 2000rpm.
Cool.
I really should hurry up and fit my 2256V, but more urgent things to do keep finding me. Like the rear door that won't unlock.