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+--- Thread: Manual Transmission information (/showthread.php?tid=421)
Manual Transmission information - winmutt - 06-10-2009
This is a sticky for any manual transmission information. Please notate starter wart on pass or drivers side and number of gears.
RE: Manual Transmission Part Numbers - ForcedInduction - 06-19-2009
This was the Getrag 5-speed from a 79/80 280E.
W123 manual ratios - ForcedInduction - 06-27-2009
(Note the code letters were created for this document -they are not official Daimler-Benz codes)
4sp manual
A 3.90-2.30-1.41-1.00 R3.66
B 3.91-2.32-1.42-1.00 R3.78
C 4.23-2.36-1.49-1.00 R4.10
D 3.91-2.17-1.37-1.00 R3.78
E 3.98-2.29-1.45-1.00 R3.74
5sp manual
F 3.82-2.20-1.40-1.00-0.81 R3.71
G 4.08-2.52-1.77-1.26-1.00 R4.40
FINAL DRIVES
3.92 3.69 3.58 3.54 3.46 3.07 2.88
W123 saloons
200D 1976-Sep80, std 4sp manual A 3.92
200D Oct80-Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.92
200D Sep83 on, std 4sp manual C 3.92
200D Feb82 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.92
220D std 4sp manual A 3.92
240D to Sep80, std 4sp manual A 3.69
240D Oct80-Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.69
240D Sep83 on, std 4sp manual C 3.69
300D std 4sp manual A 3.46
300D opt 5sp manual F 3.46
W123 estates/station wagons
240TD to Sep80, std 4sp manual as A 3.69
240TD Oct80-Aug83, std 4sp manual B 3.69
240TD Sep83 on, std 4sp manual C 3.69
240TD Feb82 on, opt 5sp manual F 3.69
300TD std 4sp manual A 3.46
300TD opt 5sp manual F 3.46
W201
190E 2.3-16v 5-speed "close ratio" manual G 3.27 (US), 3.07 (Euro)
190E 2.5-16 Evolution I 3.46
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 06-27-2009
These are all the versions of the OM61x and M110 compatible (right hand wart) manual transmissions.
4-speed, aluminum bell, iron body, "Flat Back". W115 and early W123 models
4-speed, aluminum bell, iron body, "Slope Back". Early-mid W123 models.
4-speed, all aluminum body, made by Getrag. Late (82+) W123 models.
5-speed, aluminum bell, iron body. W115, early W123 models.
5-speed, all aluminum body, made by Getrag. 1980+ W123 models.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Gasoline Fumes - 06-28-2009
I didn't know there was an aluminum 5-speed! I need one! Both the iron and aluminum versions of the 5-speed share the same ratios?
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 06-28-2009
As far as I have seen, yes.
Good luck finding either one though. All the ones in the USA came attached to gray market cars.
The iron body models shift much better and are more durable than the Getrag units.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Gasoline Fumes - 06-29-2009
(06-28-2009, 09:00 PM)ForcedInduction The iron body models shift much better and are more durable than the Getrag units.
I'm trying to lose some weight. But I'll take anything right now to replace the dead automatic.
Is there any difference in driveshaft length for the different manuals? Or is a 5-speed a direct replacement for a 4-speed?
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 06-29-2009
The 4-speeds should all share the same driveline length. The 5-speeds are about 6" longer than the 4-speed and I don't know if the iron/alum 5's are the same length.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Syncro_G - 07-27-2009
I have an iron "flat-back" 5-speed from a W115.
(also a "flat-back" iron 4-speed from a G-wagen and an automatic from '85 300TD)
Ratios of the 5-speed iron transmission are (hand turned and counted so not that accurate)
5th - 0.87
4th - 1.0
3rd - 1.43
2nd - 2.33
1st - 4.0
Rev - 3.6
it measures about 22.25" from parting face with engine to parting face of 3-bolt flange.
That's about 4.25" longer than a "flat-back" iron 4-speed and about 3/4" shorter than the late 123 automatic.
(06-28-2009, 09:00 PM)ForcedInduction The iron body models shift much better and are more durable than the Getrag units.
Good to know - I have the w115 iron 5-speed but haven't installed it yet.
What do you mean by durability - input bearing or something else?
I hear the getrags are susceptible to input bearing failure due to the split race design. But I know several guys in the G-wagen community who have replaced that bearing with a better designed one and seem to be getting some long life out of their getrags.
-SG
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 07-27-2009
(07-27-2009, 10:54 AM)Syncro_G What do you mean by durability - input bearing or something else?
Their much longer synchro life.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Nazrat - 08-07-2009
Does anyone know for sure if the 123 5-speed Getrag shares the same input bearing with split race that the one in the G-wagen used? I have a 123 5-speed in my G and am trying to find out if I should replace that bearing with a custom one without the split race when I swap in a turbo engine. I'd rather get things all lined up before I start pulling engines.
-Tad
RE: Manual Transmission information - Kozuka - 08-07-2009
OM60X Manual Transmissions
190D 2.2 (OM601)
(5 speed or 4 speed)
190D 2.5 (OM602)
(5 speed)
190E 2.3 (M102)
(4 speed or 5 speed)
190E 2.6 (M103)
(5 speed)
190E 2.3-16 (M102.983)
(5 speed, 1:1 5th Gear)
300E 3.0 (M103)
(5 speed)
C230 Kompressor 2000-2003 (M111)
(6 speed)
OM60X have the starter on the driver side compaired to the passanger side on the OM61X
Edit: 190TD only came in automatic
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 08-08-2009
(08-07-2009, 11:06 PM)Kozuka 190D 2.5 TD (OM602)Turbo models only came with a 4-speed automatic (5-speed auto for the 98-99 E300 and 05-07 E320 CDI, 7-speed auto for the 07+ Bluetec/CDI models)
(5 speed)
RE: Manual Transmission information - Kozuka - 08-09-2009
I've seen a local 1987 190D 2.5TD with a 5 speed. Was that a swap or a euro model, I talked to the guy he didn't seem to mechanicly inclined. There was also a mysterious getrag 5 speed I see around for sale thats out of the 2.5D model.
Any info on these as possible transmissions?
(08-08-2009, 12:02 AM)ForcedInduction(08-07-2009, 11:06 PM)Kozuka 190D 2.5 TD (OM602)Turbo models only came with a 4-speed automatic (5-speed auto for the 98-99 E300 and 05-07 E320 CDI, 7-speed auto for the 07+ Bluetec/CDI models)
(5 speed)
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 08-09-2009
(08-09-2009, 07:20 PM)Kozuka I've seen a local 1987 190D 2.5TD with a 5 speed.It was a swap. The nonturbo 2.5 came with a manual so all the parts are directly bolt-in, it would look stock.
The Getrag with the left side starter will only fit OM60x engines and mid-80s+ g@ssers.
RE: Manual Transmission information - charmalu - 11-28-2009
The other day I pulled a 5-spd out of a 86 190E 2.3 16 valve with 153,000K
as per post #12 it has a 1:1 5th gear. this would be a close ratio trans. does anyone know what the ratios for each gear are?
HMM, I had some pictures, don`t know what happened to them.
the transmission is a 717.404, if I read it right
Charlie
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 11-28-2009
4.08-2.52-1.77-1.26-1.00 R4.40, 3.27 diff in the US version, 3.07 diff in the euro version, both with a 32% limited slip.
It will not attach to an OM61x, only OM60x engines.
RE: Manual Transmission information - charmalu - 11-28-2009
(11-28-2009, 02:23 AM)ForcedInduction 4.08-2.52-1.77-1.26-1.00 R4.40, 3.27 diff in the US version, 3.07 diff in the euro version, both with a 32% limited slip.
It will not attach to an OM61x, only OM60x engines.
Great, thank you Lance for the info.
I`ve been following the 617 franken-5 speed by Dropnosky thread. If this works out for him, there might just be a project to do for me.
I have the 4-spd in the 85 300D with the 2:88 Diff.
First is a little high taking off on a steep hill, most other driving, no problem. great on the highway.
looking at the chart in Post# 1, looks like I have code "B". It`s out of a 82 240D. 3.91-2.32.1.42-1.00 R 3.78
This might just give me the gearing in between I need. 3rd too high and 2nd too low. give me something in between if I read things right.
Charlie
RE: Manual Transmission information - DeliveryValve - 11-28-2009
(11-28-2009, 02:23 AM)ForcedInduction 4.08-2.52-1.77-1.26-1.00 R4.40, ....
To bad there aren't any suitable overdrive add-on's out there. Wishful thinking, that would make a great 6 speed.
.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Syncro_G - 12-14-2009
(08-07-2009, 08:24 PM)Nazrat Does anyone know for sure if the 123 5-speed Getrag shares the same input bearing with split race that the one in the G-wagen used? I have a 123 5-speed in my G and am trying to find out if I should replace that bearing with a custom one without the split race when I swap in a turbo engine. I'd rather get things all lined up before I start pulling engines.
-Tad
Hey Tad, that seems like a better question for P3 or clubG. I would assume it's the same but I haven't been around the Getrag boxes so I wouldn't know.
RE: Manual Transmission information - charmalu - 12-19-2009
Here are the pictures of the 717.404 5-spd from the 86 190E 2.3 16V. That didn`t get posted in previous post.
This is the 5 spd that is 1:1 in 5th. no overdrive.
Charlie
RE: Manual Transmission information - Kozuka - 01-20-2010
With OM60X manual transmissions
1984+ Transmissions
Work only with single mass flywheels due to 'long input shaft' requires spacer and cap depending on model it seems that some models only have the spacer and some models have a cap. Maybe a getrag specific thing.
1989+ Transmissions
Work only with dual mass flywheels due to 'short input shaft' and the pilot bearing being located in the flywheel itself rather than behind inside the crankshaft and not requiring spacer and cap.
RE: Manual Transmission information - jankjerbye - 02-20-2010
I just fell over a cheap 5 speed manual 717401 box with shifter, the short shaft and all.. But i guess the starter is in the wrong side for my OM617?? And no chance of a bell housing swap either?
RE: Manual Transmission information - giezy - 02-21-2010
will a 220d flywheel and bell work on a 617? is it balanced the same?
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 02-21-2010
The 220D FW is basically the same as the 240D FW, maybe a bit lighter. So yes, it should work but you'll lose some off the line torque.
The FW needs to be match balanced to your auto flywheel in any case.
RE: Manual Transmission information - charmalu - 02-21-2010
(02-20-2010, 02:25 PM)jankjerbye I just fell over a cheap 5 speed manual 717401 box with shifter, the short shaft and all.. But i guess the starter is in the wrong side for my OM617?? And no chance of a bell housing swap either?
Find a 60x engine to use it with, or do as Dropnosky did in this thread.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/how-adapt-w201-speed-om616-om617-applications-t-965.html.
we are all looking for the elusive 5 spd for the 123
, or trying to convert one.Charlie
RE: Manual Transmission information - winmutt - 02-22-2010
(02-21-2010, 10:45 AM)giezy will a 220d flywheel and bell work on a 617? is it balanced the same?
I had one for a while. Not sure if they are different, if so not by much. I would find a 240D one if possible. Can someone check the EPC to see if they are different?
RE: Manual Transmission information - garage - 04-15-2010
How can i find out what transmission would be inside of a 1979 240D, with a 616, and a 4speed.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Kozuka - 05-05-2010
From club124 about 717.411 Transmissions (early 190E 2.3),
After you've located your flywheel and have that nice chunk of metal in your hands, it's time to find your transmission! If you have a single mass flywheel, consider yourself lucky. You have a large variety of transmissions to choose from from a regular 4 speed w/ a 5th gear overdrive to a full on dogleg getrag from a 190E Cosworth. You can even use a getrag out of an early BMW E30 M3 (Getrag 265) The amazing part of between the W201, W124 and 300SL, is that they all use the same bellhousing! I've temporarily chosen a 4 speed w/ a 5th gear overdrive as a test bed transmission for my coupe. It's the 717.411 transmission found in most early W201s and a lot of W124 diesels in Europe. This particular transmission is known (proven by the Finnish!!!) to be able to withstand around 400hp at the crank. I have a stock engine, so I have no problem. If you need help trying to figure out which transmission you've just bought, take a look at the picture to the right and find the numbers 717.411. Those numbers are the transmission's serial - helps with identifying gear ratios. These numbers can be found on the passenger side of the transmission (driver's side for UK cars).
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 05-06-2010
(05-05-2010, 10:33 PM)Kozuka This particular transmission is known (proven by the Finnish!!!) to be able to withstand around 400hp at the crank.
At what RPM? 6500rpm is much less stress than making 400hp at 3000rpm with a VGT turbo.
RE: Manual Transmission information - bmwpowere36m3 - 05-06-2010
(05-06-2010, 07:01 AM)ForcedInduction(05-05-2010, 10:33 PM)Kozuka This particular transmission is known (proven by the Finnish!!!) to be able to withstand around 400hp at the crank.
At what RPM? 6500rpm is much less stress than making 400hp at 3000rpm with a VGT turbo.
Doesn't really matter (within reasonable RPMs say 7-8k max) since HP is just a calculated number and torque is what breaks trannies. If your making HP at higher RPMs, that's essentially less torque, than the same HP at a lower RPM.
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 05-06-2010
(05-06-2010, 07:54 AM)bmwpowere36m3 since HP is just a calculated number and torque is what breaks trannies. If your making HP at higher RPMs, that's essentially less torque, than the same HP at a lower RPM.Which is precisely my point. Making 400hp at 3000rpm puts far more torque through the transmission than revving the engine to take advantage of the horsepower formula's RPM bias.
So, back to the question, 400hp at what RPM? Are we talking a VGT turbo / supercharged torque monster or too-big turbo RPM queen? I've seen many of both from the Finns.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Kozuka - 05-06-2010
(05-06-2010, 08:08 AM)ForcedInduction(05-06-2010, 07:54 AM)bmwpowere36m3 since HP is just a calculated number and torque is what breaks trannies. If your making HP at higher RPMs, that's essentially less torque, than the same HP at a lower RPM.Which is precisely my point. Making 400hp at 3000rpm puts far more torque through the transmission than revving the engine to take advantage of the horsepower formula's RPM bias.
So, back to the question, 400hp at what RPM? Are we talking a VGT turbo / supercharged torque monster or too-big turbo RPM queen? I've seen many of both from the Finns.
Well getrag trans are taking dyno's like this and they are rated for 400hp...
![[Image: rntt062.jpg]](http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x302/MikkiMake/rntt062.jpg)
RE: Manual Transmission information - Kozuka - 05-06-2010
All that I'm trying to say is this:
The Getrag and 717.411 are just as strong (yet to be proven, but I'm 99% sure I have one, having a shifter sent from Germany >.<) as each-other when it comes to manual transmissions, what transmissions have I seen used bolted up to a 606 smoke-blower is the Getrag. via -Dieselboost- videos. Unknown whats in the red car.
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 05-07-2010
(05-06-2010, 03:00 PM)Kozuka Well getrag trans are taking dyno's like this and they are rated for 400hp.
Thats only 295lb/ft. That dyno shows 337hp because its revved to 6000rpm. I make nearly that much torque at 2000rpm with only 145hp, while at 2000rpm that engine is producing less torque than a non-turbo OM617.
Thats what I'm trying to convey. Transmissions are rated by the manufacturer in torque, not horsepower, thats because torque is a measure of actual effort while horsepower is simply a calculated figure. Thats why the same transmission might easily handle 400hp from one engine but shatter from the torque of a different engine that makes only 200hp.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Kozuka - 05-14-2010
![[Image: 190e15psi.jpg]](http://www.rupelli.com/dump/jacob/190e15psi.jpg)
353hp 314tq
I can't find any higher, but I know they exist. ( I searched for an hour )
My knowledge about the get-rag tells me that 'Racing' (eg. 190rev's foremost authority in W201 Cosworths, builds turbo engines that are 500hp+ in sweden) that the get-rag can sustain about 400tq's (over 450hp) without modification. Anything more requires squirters and different fluid. Cosworth engines are not short on torque as you can see. Although probably comes in a bit later then a full-fledged VNT/VGT these transmissions have to be able to take some kind of abuse. Hell you guys bang on those 240D transmission what that are rated at 120ftlb?
RE: Manual Transmission information - ForcedInduction - 05-15-2010
(05-14-2010, 07:26 PM)Kozuka Hell you guys bang on those 240D transmission what that are rated at 120ftlb?
Mercedes never released its official rating.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Kozuka - 05-16-2010
Its seems when it comes to Manual Transmissions Mercedes doesn't release any kind of rating only on the auto-tragic's.
To my knowledge 717.411 (190E 2.3L), 717.410 (190D 2.2 and 2.5), and the dogleg are all assembled by get-rag. Rumor has it that the 717.430 (190E 2.6/300E 3.0) can sustain around 600tq's and seeing how Stylte Racing (M103 and M104 turbo) abuses this shit out of there's I tend to believe it.
Stylte Racing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKDy-8nza7o
RE: Manual Transmission information - Rudolf_Diesel - 06-07-2010
I went to the wrecking yard today and found a W126 280SEL, Manual trans. I grabbed the pedals, the trans may be shot. The flex disc gave out and broke the rear of the case. I did not get the number off of the trans, dumb on my part, but I will go back and see what the number is. The trans had an iron body, I did not get the year either.
The vehicle had manual windows, leather seats, manual climate controls, no instruments...I am wondering if it is a Euro car. Hell I was so excited to find the pedals I didn't even check the bumpers. Boy did I blow it.
RE: Manual Transmission information - willbhere4u - 06-07-2010
I saw one a few years ago there was one at pull and save in Denver 280se man trans cloth seats roll up windows! wish I had thought to at least grab the peddle set and cross member dang!
RE: Manual Transmission information - MB Fleet - 07-02-2010
I’ve found a sort of rusty, nothing special 78 euro 280SE (w116) with a manual 4sp trans for sale. It would be debatable to keep it stock or use it as transmission donor car to do an auto/manual swap. I currently have a 78 euro 280CE (w123) with an auto that I’d like to swap the trans for a manual.
Does anyone know if w116 parts interchange with w123 parts such as the clutch pedal assembly, and shift linkage? I’ve heard and seen that w116 and w123 share a lot of similar part but didn’t know if a trans swap was possible. My plan was to resell the 280SE after putting the 280CE auto into it so it is still a runner.
Thanks
RE: Manual Transmission information - willbhere4u - 07-02-2010
The biggest problem is going to be making a custom drive shaft and the bell housings may be different!
RE: Manual Transmission information - JB3 - 08-11-2010
The weak point on the 190 5-speeds with 717.411 and 717.412 seems to be 4th gear, or 3rd/4th synchro. I have now been through 3 different boxes looking for one in decent condition, and all have exhibited failure or damage at that location.
Its not so much that the gear itself is weak, but the synchro mechanism/shifting is weak. I think this has to do with the once removed downshift from 5th to 4th through complex linkages primarily. On two of the boxes, the synchro clutch had failed, and on all three, there is excessive wear on the synchro over all the other gear synchros, which are simpler connections overall.
Careful on the downshift from 5th to 4th!
RE: Manual Transmission information - HughF_UK - 08-25-2010
I've just stumbled upon this 'ere thread (as we say in dorset) and am wondering what flywheel I need, single or dual to bolt my 190 2.3-16 getrag to my 606? How should I determine if my gearbox is a short or long shaft model?
RE: Manual Transmission information - winmutt - 08-25-2010
I have been wondering that myself.
RE: Manual Transmission information - HughF_UK - 08-25-2010
I wonder if a 201 2.3-16 flywheel will fit the 606?
I can find out from the UK contingent and report back...
RE: Manual Transmission information - Alastair E - 08-26-2010
Hi HughF...
You'll need an OM.601 Single-Mass flywheel according to the Finns ive been talking to...
Dont use dual-mass, its not suitable for lots of torque and wont fit your trans!
--Worth checking your trans has the Long shaft, but it should do, the Getrag I think only ever has single-mass....
But, Reading above suggests the 717.430/717.433 is more robust than the 2.3 getrag non overdrive trans.
RE: Manual Transmission information - willbhere4u - 12-19-2010
6 spd pics
RE: Manual Transmission information - Druk - 10-23-2011
Gentlemen.
Just joined your forum and this is my first post.
The project is to install a 606-962 into a 1981 R107SL.
First problem/question is. I have a 717-412 5 speed O/D box, long input shaft, solid flywheel.
Will this box take the torque of a 606 turbo in standard output form?
Thanks.
RE: Manual Transmission information - Kozuka - 10-23-2011
it will take about 400tq's give or take before it explodes, could be modified with transmission fluid sprayers & a syncromesh fluid to take a bit more.