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+--- Thread: Real #'s (/showthread.php?tid=458)
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Real #'s - Motorhead - 06-26-2009
What is the biggest real #'s out of a OM617 has anyone seen, I seen the vid of that green wagon from Finnland but did not see how much it made?
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 06-26-2009
The wagon was a failure. It never raced, just that burnout video.
The highest dyno proven number I've seen is 145hp with a Myna pump and the stock turbo.
RE: Real #'s - benztek - 06-26-2009
Does anyone have any idea what might be possible? I am not talking about a million dollar build, I am talking about normal people!
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 06-26-2009
With ~$800 you can get around 180hp (M-Pump and 6mm E300 elements), this is the point I'm nearing right now. ~$4000 (in parts, not counting labor) with a Myna pump, bigger turbo, intercooler and modified transmission guts you could hit 250hp. Put ~$8,000 into the above plus huge turbo (maybe compounds), huge intercooler, custom rods, custom pistons, stronger crank, copper head gasket, head porting and maybe bigger valves and you might be the first in the world to touch 400hp with a 617.
Of course, that much money and work will build a proven (and much more efficient) 500+hp from an OM606.
In other words; if you just want some extra giddyup for your daily driver, the 617 is fine. If you want real power, you need to get a 606 or a CDI.
RE: Real #'s - benztek - 06-26-2009
Oh, but a 300hp 123 or 126 would just be so much more fun!
RE: Real #'s - Motorhead - 06-26-2009
I would like to see what a 617 can do but I do agree with F.I. that a 606 is the beast but I think a 603 could make good power too, I am going to put my efforts into the 617 for now but if I can't get her to make about 220 hp than I just step up to the 6 cyl's.
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 06-27-2009
The transmission is a big limiter of power.
722.0 (W3A040)- 290lb/ft
722.1 (W4B020 or W4B025)- 145/180lb/ft
722.2 (W4B025)- 180lb/ft
722.3 (W4A040)- 290lb/ft
722.4 (W4A020)- 145lb/ft
722.5 (W5A030)- 216lb/ft
722.6 (W5A580)- 578lb/ft
http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Application.htm
RE: Real #'s - Motorhead - 06-27-2009
(06-27-2009, 04:49 AM)ForcedInduction The transmission is a big limiter of power.Hey more great info!
722.0 (W3A040)- 290lb/ft
722.1 (W4B020 or W4B025)- 145/180lb/ft
722.2 (W4B025)- 180lb/ft
722.3 (W4A040)- 290lb/ft
722.4 (W4A020)- 145lb/ft
722.5 (W5A030)- 216lb/ft
722.6 (W5A580)- 578lb/ft
http://www.europeantransmissions.com/Application.htm
I'm happy now to have a spare, I will see how much my 722.315 will take but if it becomes a problem that I will have to make a change like a stick or adapt an american automatic.
RE: Real #'s - GREASY_BEAST - 06-27-2009
not to beat a dead horse but it seems like a toyota 5spd is a pretty simple swap.
RE: Real #'s - benztek - 06-27-2009
I have talked to a couple of trans specialists at my shop and they feel that the 722.3 can be built to handle 350HP no problem. They know some valvebody tricks and of course the v-12 clutch packs.
RE: Real #'s - willbhere4u - 06-27-2009
What kind of power will the 4spd Manuel handle? before we twist it up internally?
I just shot a reverse gear out the side of my dads 1980 240d 4spd trans and had two drive it to my shop using a very noisy 2nd 3rd and 4th gear 1st and reverse just made grinding noise and all of the fluid leaked out
we bought the car for $500 because they said the clutch was bad? but apparently it got stuck in two gears that didn't do it any good we put a new tranny in and shifter bushings and all is good now! but I don't want to destroy one in my 617 turbo car
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 06-27-2009
They and the clutch can easily handle the 250lb/ft @ 1800rpm my engine puts out with the VNT turbo. The only reason I changed transmissions is I got a killer deal on a newly rebuilt one ($300). My old one would grind into 2nd and 3rd if I tried to shift fast or above 2500rpm but otherwise worked very well for having 218k miles.
FYI- using Redline MTL made shifting much worse in the old one. The new one has been using Mobil1 synthetic ATF from day 1.
RE: Real #'s - Motorhead - 06-29-2009
If I had a 606 that put out 350+ HP than I might use a 700R4 or an AOD, my trans in my CD is bad but after the donner swop Art Carr said he would do some nice things to it. I have the shift kit for it and I will put in a fresh converter with the install, it would not be a bad thing to have a pissed off diesel eat a stock trans.
RE: Real #'s - winmutt - 06-30-2009
(06-26-2009, 10:04 PM)ForcedInduction ~$4000 (in parts, not counting labor) with a Myna pumpWoah. Where did you get this number from. Last I heard it was 1200 euros.
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 06-30-2009
(06-30-2009, 10:05 AM)winmutt Woah. Where did you get this number from. Last I heard it was 1200 euros.
Thats for everything. Myna pump, custom tranny rebuild (722.6 guts), turbo, intercooler, brakes, 15" wheels, tires (Gotta be able to stop fast if you're driving fast), exhaust, misc parts (tubes, hardware, fluids), etc.
RE: Real #'s - benztek - 06-30-2009
So we are talking 1200 euros for the myna pump! What size elements are in that pump? What external adjustments are a part of it? Do you have to send them an M pump to start with?
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-01-2009
(06-30-2009, 06:42 PM)benztek So we are talking 1200 euros for the myna pump!About 1500 when all is said and done for 2-way shipping, import taxes and a core m-pump.
Quote:What size elements are in that pump?7mm.
Quote:What external adjustments are a part of it?They add an ALDA and an external full load adjustment screw.
Quote:Do you have to send them an M pump to start with?Yes, they need something to build with.
RE: Real #'s - Tymbrymi - 07-01-2009
(07-01-2009, 02:58 AM)ForcedInduction About 1500 when all is said and done for 2-way shipping, import taxes and a core m-pump.
Do you happen to know what it would cost to just replace the elements? I've got an electronic OM606 pump on the way. After that is working reliably I'll want to upgrade to the 7mm elements... With the electronic governor they shouldn't need anywhere near as much bench time.
RE: Real #'s - benztek - 07-01-2009
Great. Now to find an M-pump!
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-01-2009
(07-01-2009, 09:09 AM)Tymbrymi Do you happen to know what it would cost to just replace the elements?
45euro each is what somebody quoted last year.
RE: Real #'s - Tymbrymi - 07-01-2009
(07-01-2009, 03:42 PM)ForcedInduction 45euro each is what somebody quoted last year.
Hopefully the bench time to install/calibrate just the elements won't be all that much. I'll be spending enough of my money on fabricating the turbo manifolds and doing the electronics!
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-01-2009
I believe they do a lot more than swap elements and calibrate. I know they add an ALDA for the 61x engines, add the external load screw and I've heard they do a custom grind of the cam.
RE: Real #'s - Tymbrymi - 07-01-2009
(07-01-2009, 04:54 PM)ForcedInduction I believe they do a lot more than swap elements and calibrate. I know they add an ALDA for the 61x engines, add the external load screw and I've heard they do a custom grind of the cam.I hope they wouldn't add an external load screw to my electronic 606 pump!
In all seriousness, I imagine a very large portion of the time rebuilding the older pumps is spent calibrating the governor.
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-01-2009
I don't know if they would do the electronic ones. All the superturbo 606's I've ever seen used a mechanical pump.
Contact them and let us know.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/myna-diesel-contact-information-t-242.html
RE: Real #'s - winmutt - 07-01-2009
I want to find the Audi 5cyl rotary pump. Plenty of upgrades for that line. and from what I have seen it has the same driveinterface.
RE: Real #'s - Motorhead - 07-02-2009
(07-01-2009, 09:28 PM)winmutt I want to find the Audi 5cyl rotary pump. Plenty of upgrades for that line. and from what I have seen it has the same driveinterface.Is the Audi pump for a diesel or do the bosch mechanical F/I pumps work the same way as diesel I/P's do, who has the best pumps so far?
RE: Real #'s - winmutt - 07-03-2009
Diesel Audi 5 cylinder. Pretty rare here.
RE: Real #'s - dalek - 07-04-2009
(07-03-2009, 07:20 AM)winmutt Diesel Audi 5 cylinder. Pretty rare here.
[attachment=822][attachment=823]
RE: Real #'s - GREASY_BEAST - 07-04-2009
Will it clear the block? What do the splines look like?
RE: Real #'s - Motorhead - 07-04-2009
It looks like it is cog belt driven, it would not be a bad install. What is the fuel volume potiential, last question how much?
RE: Real #'s - GREASY_BEAST - 07-04-2009
(07-04-2009, 11:09 AM)Motorhead It looks like it is cog belt driven, it would not be a bad install.
Ah, I see now. Runs right off the timing belt. Sure, won't be a bad install as long as it clears the damn block on the back side. Could make a spacer to ensure that it clears the lip on the bottom, as long as it doesn't interfere with the oil cooler lines.. I guess you could give it its own cog and belt and hang it out from the block if it doesn't fit. Simple 2-bearing block, ball bearings, and an oil seal, run the IP oil return straight to the oil pan. Things are pretty tight around the IP on the 617.
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-04-2009
All you have to do is put the spline snout on the shaft and bolt it up. I dislike rotary pumps though, I wouldn't do it.
RE: Real #'s - Telecommbrkr - 07-04-2009
(07-04-2009, 03:09 PM)ForcedInduction I dislike rotary pumps though, I wouldn't do it.
What causes your dislike?
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-05-2009
Personal preference. I've always seen inline pumps as the better pumps.
RE: Real #'s - Telecommbrkr - 07-05-2009
This a gut feeling, or do you think mechanically that the rotary is a lesser unit? ie: longevity, adjustment, failure issues, etc.
I am just curious about these pumps, and if it would be an option that would allow easier tunability, plus the fact that there is an aftermarket parts availability for them.
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-05-2009
(07-05-2009, 12:51 AM)Telecommbrkr This a gut feeling, or do you think mechanically that the rotary is a lesser unit? ie: longevity, adjustment, failure issues, etc.
A few things. Its lubed by fuel, it has only one plunger to pump all 5 cylinders (plunger float at high RPM?, like wheels driving over washboard) and fuel pressure is critical to its survival (too low and it can die) are what I can think of off the top of my head.
RE: Real #'s - dalek - 07-05-2009
ForcedInduction said he would not do it. I am not here to disagree with him. He knows much more about diesel pumps in his little finger I would ever know in a lifetime.
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-05-2009
(07-05-2009, 08:14 AM)dalek ForcedInduction said he would not do it.
Thats no reason NOT to do it. VO "conversions" are one thing, but when it comes to performance improvement I don't mind being proven wrong.
If that rotary pump turns out to work well, it could prove a reasonable Myna-alternative.
RE: Real #'s - dalek - 07-05-2009
I am just here to lurk and maybe ask a few questions. The last thing I want to do here is to prove anyone wrong. I just thought someone would want to see the Audi pump; if that was seen as stepping on people's heads, I do apologize.
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-05-2009
(07-05-2009, 08:49 AM)dalek I just thought someone would want to see the Audi pump; if that was seen as stepping on people's heads...
Not in the least. Please post more detailed pictures if you have them, I would like to see the idea progress rather than die in the middle of a thread. This place is all about learning from each other's adventures.
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-05-2009
In fact, I've moved the audi pump discussion to keep this thread on topic: http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/audi-5cyl-rotary-pump-t-481.html
RE: Real #'s - Syncro_G - 07-05-2009
(06-30-2009, 10:16 AM)ForcedInduction custom tranny rebuild (722.6 guts)
F.I.-
I'm curious about this. Is this a gear-for-gear swap to get stronger gears or are you implying that you can get 5 speeds into the 722.3 housing?
-SG
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 07-05-2009
AFAIK, its just a clutch and band upgrade.
RE: Real #'s - larryratcliff - 09-16-2009
(06-26-2009, 10:04 PM)ForcedInduction With ~$800 you can get around 180hp (M-Pump and 6mm E300 elements), this is the point I'm nearing right now. ~$4000 (in parts, not counting labor) with a Myna pump, bigger turbo, intercooler and modified transmission guts you could hit 250hp.
Does Myna sell the turbo, and intercooler as well? I am wondering which turbo one would use to hit the 250 hp mark (and intercooler). I am guessing with 250 hp it would be pushing close to 400 ft lb of torque? I am a lot more interested in the torque numbers. In fact 200 hp with mid ~350 ft lb of torque would do the job for me.... but I would not complain with an extra 50 hp.
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 09-16-2009
Myna just does diesel injection. An HY35 would easily handle 250hp and not be painful as a daily driver. There are some rare GT30/GT32/GT35 VNT turbos that would provide good low end torque and flow enough for 250hp, but getting them is difficult in the USA.
RE: Real #'s - larryratcliff - 09-16-2009
(09-16-2009, 06:21 PM)ForcedInduction Myna just does diesel injection. An HY35 would easily handle 250hp and not be painful as a daily driver. There are some rare GT30/GT32/GT35 VNT turbos that would provide good low end torque and flow enough for 250hp, but getting them is difficult in the USA.I think I would definitely want a VNT turbo. The off idle boost they provide is amazing. I dont have a boost gauge on my jetta but I have what feels like 0 lag to me and have become spoiled.
What vehicles did those come on?
We are going to Finland for a wedding in the spring I wish it was sooner so I could drop off and pick up a pump at Myna.
Are there any typical inter coolers to grab? I am thinking that grabbing one off of something like a RX7 might work ....
This is all great information BTW thank you.
Larry
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 09-17-2009
(09-16-2009, 10:00 PM)larryratcliff What vehicles did those come on?Hino engines.
Quote:Are there any typical inter coolers to grab? I am thinking that grabbing one off of something like a RX7 might work ....Aftermarket is usually the best value option. Factory intercoolers for small displacement g@ssers flow poorly, usually less than 250cfm before restriction gets into a multiple psi drop across the core. The RX-7 intercooler is a decent one though.
RE: Real #'s - larryratcliff - 09-17-2009
(09-17-2009, 12:48 AM)ForcedInduction(09-16-2009, 10:00 PM)larryratcliff What vehicles did those come on?Hino engines.
Quote:Are there any typical inter coolers to grab? I am thinking that grabbing one off of something like a RX7 might work ....Aftermarket is usually the best value option. Factory intercoolers for small displacement g@ssers flow poorly, usually less than 250cfm before restriction gets into a multiple psi drop across the core. The RX-7 intercooler is a decent one though.
Has anyone tried to make a sprinter turbo work? I was looking at various vnt turbos on Wikipedia and was thinking wow maybe it would be possible to even just go buy one of those new without breaking the bank.
Are there any preferred companies out there for the aftermarket intercoolers? Maybe one from a dodge 6bt truck might be an acceptable one?
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 09-17-2009
(09-17-2009, 11:22 AM)larryratcliff Has anyone tried to make a sprinter turbo work?Its what I use.
Quote:maybe it would be possible to even just go buy one of those new without breaking the bank.New is around $900-$1200 (depending on who you get it from), used usually go around $150.
Quote:Maybe one from a dodge 6bt truck might be an acceptable one?If you want something as wide as your hood.
RE: Real #'s - MJF - 09-17-2009
341.5hp/535nm 1.8bar 617a, dynoed here locally. 7mm pump, hx40. From Mersuforum