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+--- Thread: Electric Fuel pump (/showthread.php?tid=1757)
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Kozuka - 07-01-2010
(07-01-2010, 05:29 PM)GREASY_BEAST What's wrong with the FPR in return banjo? Just put a bigger spring in it to get the pressure you want.
Can this spring limit 100+ psi because thats what the GL392 & Fuelab are producing..
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Tymbrymi - 07-08-2010
(07-01-2010, 06:54 PM)Kozuka Can this spring limit 100+ psi because thats what the GL392 & Fuelab are producing..
Those pumps are capable of producing that PSI (I think the CIS pumps top out at 80), but, personally, I'd regulate it at a much lower pressure like 30psi.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - rdirtycar - 07-08-2010
I'm going to get a fuel pressure gauge and try stretching the spring in the meantime to get more fuel in there. It's probably going to pop the bladder in my lift pump.
Using a modified spring in the banjo return, would be better by definition because it is simpler.
Modifying the spring in the banjo return fitting is better by definition because it is simpler. Maybe less fun, but it is the simpler thing to do. What about taping a hole in the top of the banjo bolt and threading in an adjustment screw with a plunger of some sort pushing on the spring? Machine a longer banjo bolt to fit the plunger and spring. i just answered my own question. I haven't even seen where this fitting is on my engine so correct me if I'm really confusing. I think I know.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 07-08-2010
(07-08-2010, 04:58 PM)rdirtycar I'm going to get a fuel pressure gauge and try stretching the spring in the meantime to get more fuel in there. It's probably going to pop the bladder in my lift pump.
Using a modified spring in the banjo return, would be better by definition because it is simpler.
Modifying the spring in the banjo return fitting is better by definition because it is simpler. Maybe less fun, but it is the simpler thing to do. What about taping a hole in the top of the banjo bolt and threading in an adjustment screw with a plunger of some sort pushing on the spring? Machine a longer banjo bolt to fit the plunger and spring. i just answered my own question. I haven't even seen where this fitting is on my engine so correct me if I'm really confusing. I think I know.
You are always confusing!!!
Haha you could tap the banjo bolt, but putting a set screw through it would block fuel flow out of the return anyway... plus it would be a great place for a leak. you would almost need to turn the banjo bolt into a pressure regulator haha. And I think the point of the electric pump was to smooth out the pulsing and get rid of the hand priming of the fuel system?
(07-01-2010, 06:54 PM)Kozuka(07-01-2010, 05:29 PM)GREASY_BEAST What's wrong with the FPR in return banjo? Just put a bigger spring in it to get the pressure you want.
Can this spring limit 100+ psi because thats what the GL392 & Fuelab are producing..
Those pumps will only product that kind of pressure if there is too big a restriction in the return line.
No restriction = no pressure no matter what pump you run
Full restriction = maximum capable pressure from the pump
So the Fuelab pump can produce a max press of 100psi
My pumps will do 85-90 stable PSI max.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - GREASY_BEAST - 07-09-2010
(07-08-2010, 04:58 PM)rdirtycar It's probably going to pop the bladder in my lift pump.
You had better take another look at your lift pump.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - SurfRodder - 07-09-2010
(07-01-2010, 12:56 PM)Captain America I could easily try the RetroTek Speed pump and regulator since I am the one who makes them
You make these in Riverside? Or do you have them made elsewhere?
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 07-09-2010
They are made in china
(out of my control) I torture test them in Riverside/Hawthore at the shop...
RE: Electric Fuel pump - rdirtycar - 07-10-2010
Ugh. I should think more before I just post whatever is on my mind. I get so excited though. I better just listen to this post until I actually get my hands dirty cause I really don't know what I'm talking about.
I DO have a few of the hard plastic fuel lines coming in the mail so I might have some interesting stories for my car profile next week.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 07-11-2010
(07-10-2010, 08:04 PM)rdirtycar Ugh. I should think more before I just post whatever is on my mind. I get so excited though. I better just listen to this post until I actually get my hands dirty cause I really don't know what I'm talking about.
It's cool dude, I get the same way and start typing some gibberish nonsense but I always re read like a million times b4 I hit post.
Anyway, I think I'm having some fuel starvation issues right now, which is probly from there being a bunch of shyster in my tank. But I plan on throwing a fuel pressure gauge between the lift pump and injection pump to see how it looks while I'm driving.
p.s. I read else where that stretching the spring in the banjo to 27mm is perfect...
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Alastair E - 07-11-2010
Just curious Why anyone would want to run 100 psi gallery-pressure in the IP!
Cant fill anything fuller than full!
25-30 psi is more than enough, the Finns with their extreme tuning dont need more than that!.....
--What becomes important on the levels of tune the Finns use is Flow Quantity at 25 psi, they often use pretty large flow pumps to keep up with the fuel-demand....
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Kozuka - 07-11-2010
(07-11-2010, 11:06 AM)Alastair E Just curious Why anyone would want to run 100 psi gallery-pressure in the IP!
Cant fill anything fuller than full!
25-30 psi is more than enough, the Finns with their extreme tuning dont need more than that!.....
--What becomes important on the levels of tune the Finns use is Flow Quantity at 25 psi, they often use pretty large flow pumps to keep up with the fuel-demand....
The point I was trying to make is that I don't trust the rinky-dink spring FPR in the fuel filter to restrict 100psi down to 30psi which is the hole point of this discussion. No-one was saying that they want to run 100psi through the injection pump. Only weather or not the stock FPR could be trusted to do the job.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 07-11-2010
Guys, Guys, Guys!!!!!
It ALL depends on how much the pump flows. You guys are thinking backwards. You don't restrict the pressure down from, lets say, 100 psi to 30; You have to restrict the pressure up from 0 psi to whatever your fuel system requires (30 in this case)
If you turn your garden hose on full blast, there is NO pressure in the hose and it will flow as much water as the 3/4" outlet of the faucet allows. Now if you pinch the end of the hose, pressure starts to rise while flow drops.
Pressure and flow are on a balance beam or see saw lets say. If one goes up the other goes down. ALWAYS.
The thing that regulates fuel pressure must flow the same amount of fuel that the pump flows @ 0 psi. Most fuel pumps are rated at a certain pressure. My pumps flow 180lph, 220lph, or 255+lph @ 45 psi. Free flow of the pumps is much more than at 45 psi.
On to the next issue: For almost any EFI fuel pump you use that is externally regulated, the 1/4" return line and that banjo is NOT going to flow enough fuel to keep the pressure down around 30 psi. therefore you will have a higher than desired fuel pressure. I think I will use my FuelOnDemand to control fuel pressure. Instead of a mechanical pressure regulator it is electronic. It pulse width modulates the fuel pump only running it as fast as needed to maintain the desired fuel pressure. Its a pretty slick piece.
http://www.retrotekspeed.com/products/fuel-on-demand/fuel-on-demand-controller.html
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Kozuka - 07-11-2010
Quite the expensive piece too, My bad on the fuel pressure understanding. But my point is still that you can't use the banjo-spring-fpr-thingy. You need a proper fuel pump and pressure regulator. You can't just use some gasser EFI stuff and call it good. You need the right stuff which, arguably would be the fuelab pump & regulator ( or the diesel truck forums say the Walbro GL392 if your cheap ) to do the job right. I'm considering this because of the gasser tank I'm using, the special hoses and routing for the tank make me reluctant to just by-pass them. But we are talking about at-least $500 in stuff. (or around $300 with the Walbro fuel pump)
My question is since we just want stable pressure, we would just leave the pressure reference port to the atmosphere?
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 07-11-2010
Yes, you would leave the reference port open to that atmosphere. In gas EFI since the electric pump solely controls fuel pressure at the injector, the regulator must change the pressure at the inlet of the injector as boost and vacuum effect fuel flow out of the tip of the injector. With our setup the injection pump controls injector pressure so the regulator would not need to do that job.
Your point is right! the banjo-spring-fpr-thingy, hahaha Lmao, will not do the job once you use a badass electric pump such as the Fuelab or equivalent. They just palin flow too much fuel for the banjo to control pressure.
On the Wablro, Those are freaking awesome pumps! They are cheap but very high quality. I have one in my tool box I used to use on my car b4 we started making our own. I don't see why it would fail with diesel use?
Gimme a bit and I'll test a couple different setups on my car:
1.My pump and my regulator
2.Wablro pump and my regulator
3.then both pumps controlled via my Fuel On Demand
Remember that I make the Fuel On Demand so the price you see is retail, It probly costs me half that and I'd give you guys a killer deal.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Kozuka - 07-11-2010
Key Problem with the reciprocating motors is the low-sulfur diesel fuel doesn't lubricate and has a high viscosity which is harder to push.
Also The Pump Is Called GSL392 not GL
RE: Electric Fuel pump - ForcedInduction - 07-11-2010
(07-11-2010, 07:00 PM)Kozuka the low-sulfur diesel fuel doesn't lubricate
Wrong.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - GREASY_BEAST - 07-12-2010
(07-11-2010, 05:42 PM)Captain America Your point is right! the banjo-spring-fpr-thingy, hahaha Lmao, will not do the job once you use a badass electric pump such as the Fuelab or equivalent. They just palin flow too much fuel for the banjo to control pressure.
If this is the case then there is no point in proceeding. The outlet fitting on the injection pump is a set size and you will go through hell trying to change that. What's the difference between the 1/4" banjo fitting/fpr and a 1/4" fuel line to some wicked expensive fpr in the terms you are speaking of? I see none. Please show me where I've gone wrong.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 07-12-2010
(07-12-2010, 05:28 PM)GREASY_BEAST If this is the case then there is no point in proceeding. The outlet fitting on the injection pump is a set size and you will go through hell trying to change that. What's the difference between the 1/4" banjo fitting/fpr and a 1/4" fuel line to some wicked expensive fpr in the terms you are speaking of? I see none. Please show me where I've gone wrong.
Your exactly right! I hadn't even though about that. Ok so there is an easy way and hard way to do this. the determining factor is if extra fuel must flow through the IP, more than needed? I believe I read that the fuel keeps it cool or lubes it? IDK I don't remember.
I can see a couple ways to do this...
1. depending on which pump you choose, how much it flows at the desired pressure, the 1/4" line and banjo fpr may be the perfect restriction to maintain the pressure, but probly not.
2. If the 1/4" line does flow enough then your golden, just replace the banjo fpr with an inline regulator and crank the pressure up to whatever you want.
3. If the fuel pump chosen out flows the 1/4" lines then the best option would be to dead head the pressure into the IP with no fuel returning out the engine side back up to the banjo fpr. you would have the fuel coming out of the feed line into one side of the fpr, out the other side of the fpr and into the IP. out the bottom of the fpr back to the return line to the tank. I dunno if the injector return lines are pressurized by the banjo fpr or not???
This is the perfect application for the Fuel On Demand because it will control the pressure by directly changing the speed of the electric pump.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 07-12-2010
While you can only do real world testing in the real world I have the next best thing. Tomorrow morning I will start testing with diesel fuel and one of our fuel pumps and Fuel On Demand. This should be a good compatibility test as I can adjust and monitor line pressure, flow, and current draw by the pump.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 07-14-2010
Well day one of the pump testing went great! It seem the pumps love diesel... they operate quieter and when the fuel warms up and thins out they flow the same as gas (Heptane).
The lowest temp I could test at was 75 degrees this morning.
Adding a second fuel pump. - MadMaxW126 - 09-21-2010
Anyone consider adding a second injection pump? Running off of the crank pulley with a wide toothed belt timed in sync with the stock positioned one to add more fuel? You could Y in the fuel lines with a little weld and compression fittings. Probably a cheaper option the messing with elements and all that other non-sense.... at least in theory. And the nice Gates belts are good enough to move 100hp sucking Allison/Detroit blowers... why not an injection pump?
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - ForcedInduction - 09-21-2010
No reason it won't work, except you'll end up spending much more than a myna pump in fabricating brackets and pulleys to make it work. Not to mention figuring out how to make the timer mechanism work in a non-oiled/non-sealed environment and the room to mount it all.
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - MadMaxW126 - 09-21-2010
oiling and sealing is easy. i can have an end made up and machine a couple of standard cog pulleys to work on the end of it and on the crank. fabbing brackets and what not is the easy part. just so long as it works in theory, it'll be worth looking into. so long as i can find a cheap injection pump, i could probably build it for under $400.
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - willbhere4u - 09-21-2010
Go for it take some pics! and let us know how it works out!
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - tomnik - 09-21-2010
good idea!
Increase the number of additional pumps and time them for multi injection.
Modern systems inject 5-7 times (for one combustion stroke).
Tom
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - ForcedInduction - 09-22-2010
(09-21-2010, 11:25 PM)tomnik Increase the number of additional pumps and time them for multi injection.
Modern systems inject 5-7 times (for one combustion stroke).
He is talking about multiplying the injection volume. The prechambers already function for what multiple injections do, just not as precisely.
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - MadMaxW126 - 09-22-2010
just working on volume right now.... well after i get the damn thing running. then i'll tinker with it seeing as most of the other diesel stuff i've messed with was all in bigger make it run type of situations.
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - jeemu - 09-22-2010
Idea is good, but thats all good about that.
It s not easy make both pumps work together. Here is one tuner test that, but i dont remember why it didint work. He drive on that, but still he change back in one pump version.
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - Telecommbrkr - 09-22-2010
would it not be better to go to bigger OD injection lines, slightly cut DV's, EDM'd nozzles, and an electric pump feeding the stock lift pump, or even circumventing the LP altogether?
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - ben2go - 09-24-2010
Bigger lines=more flow= pressure drop at the injectors-unless the pressure can be bumped back up,then better flowing injectors could be used.maybe reworked factory injectors?
RE: Electric Fuel pump - garage - 09-26-2010
Captain, would you be willing to test the pumps on the bench with some filtered WVO?
Id love to get rid of the lift pump and try out a electric fuel pump, i just dont fancy spending 2-300bucks on the pump alone.
RE: Adding a second fuel pump. - Telecommbrkr - 09-26-2010
I think this thread should be merged with the 'Electric Fuel Pump' thread. Alot of info already discussed in that one......
RE: Electric Fuel pump - winmutt - 09-27-2010
looks like merge is broken right now in mybb. Ah free software.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - George3soccer - 09-27-2010
Have a question for Jeemu, or anyone that can answer this.
If I put a large flow electric fuel pump for example I ahve laying in the garage Bosch 044 pump, should I be worried at regulating the pressure, or let it run non stop once the motor is started.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 09-28-2010
(09-26-2010, 01:14 PM)garage Captain, would you be willing to test the pumps on the bench with some filtered WVO?
Id love to get rid of the lift pump and try out a electric fuel pump, i just dont fancy spending 2-300bucks on the pump alone.
What is the major differences between that and regular diesel?
RE: Electric Fuel pump - ForcedInduction - 09-28-2010
(09-28-2010, 02:45 PM)Captain America What is the major differences between that and regular diesel?
Its corrosive and has a wide variance in viscosity, especially with temperature.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - garage - 09-29-2010
Haha, well Captain, Forced basicly summed it all up.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 09-30-2010
I don't like that corrosive part one bit!
RE: Electric Fuel pump - JB3 - 09-30-2010
(09-30-2010, 10:03 AM)Captain America I don't like that corrosive part one bit!
Well, you shouldn't, especially since thats totally ridiculous. Some pumps can't handle either the heat of low viscosity hot VO, or high viscosity cold VO. The pump failures can be attributed to the pump breaking down trying to suck something too thick, or not being suited for high temp fuel running through it and overheating.
Corrosion is a non issue. Polymerization is what you have to worry about, basically the VO building up on metal if its exposed to air.
Ask anyone who has ever run any VO, whats more likely, the VO turning into a sticky mass if left in an open container, or things getting corroded?
Honestly, I know guys who have poured VO in a fuel tank to coat and stop the inside of the tank from rusting out! It does work, if you maintain the vents
RE: Electric Fuel pump - ForcedInduction - 09-30-2010
(09-30-2010, 10:37 AM)dropnosky Corrosion is a non issue.
To you and those that use care selecting their grease. Anyone thats ever done an acid test on grease knows how bad it is, especially with age and bin cleaner contamination. I used to work on a fryer in my early teens, I know how nasty that stuff can be when it gets where it shouldn't.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - garage - 09-30-2010
(09-30-2010, 10:03 AM)Captain America I don't like that corrosive part one bit!
Yeah, especially for testing purposes i dont think that would be an issue.
But testing one of your pumps with WVO would definetly be torture test.
My dad has a 5.5psi electronic fuel pump from autozone mounted on top of the wheel well feeding the lift pump. Its definetly a great idea, especially for bleeding air after you run out of gas. Hes put somthing like 10,000miles on it without any problems so far and he runs nothing but WVO, no diesel almost ever.
Would getting rid of the lift pump and running a electronic fuel pump at 25-45psi help these cars get up steep inclines easier?
It seems to me that this would almost solve the issue of bogging down on steep hills..i could be wrong though.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 10-01-2010
Well, We could test one of my pumps... Well one of you can. I just sent one to Rudolf the other day. I know they work fine with straight diesel as I have already tested them. I can't put WVO in my test stand at work though to do the test myself....
RE: Electric Fuel pump - garage - 10-01-2010
Hmm, is Rudolf using it in place of the lift pump? Or using it to feed the pump?
When i have some extra time and money...actually once my checklist for the car has been cut in half i would definetly like to pick one up.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - muuris - 10-01-2010
Can't really see the point putting electric lift pump to a (nearly) stock engine, considering the effort needed and money spent. Mine has had no problems with just the stock mechanical one at around 400hp. Fuel transfer pressures (between filter and IP) are low, maxing around 7psi and going near 0psi on full load, but no problems so far.
Now when reaching for more, I'll put the electric one and remove the stock.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - Captain America - 10-01-2010
(10-01-2010, 12:19 PM)muuris Can't really see the point putting electric lift pump to a (nearly) stock engine, considering the effort needed and money spent. Mine has had no problems with just the stock mechanical one at around 400hp. Fuel transfer pressures (between filter and IP) are low, maxing around 7psi and going near 0psi on full load, but no problems so far.
Now when reaching for more, I'll put the electric one and remove the stock.
See, I would take care of that first because from what I've read, 19psi is what is wanted and with low pressure like you are describing, there is more wear and tear on both the IP and cylinder one.
Ensuring pressure is correct at the IP does not only benefit performance but also ensures longevity of the engine..... This is what I have gathered from reading the fuel pressure threads on PP.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - muuris - 10-02-2010
I don't understand. Why is 19psi "wanted" and how does fuel transfer pressure affect on cylinder one wear? Mercs with these stock pumps have been driven over 1,5M miles without pump failure..
Can't believe performance benefits on a nearly stock engine if one raises the transfer pressure. On a performance engine it's different.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - ForcedInduction - 10-02-2010
Absolute pressure is limited by the lift pump spring strength, even if you loop or block the return flow.
MB says to stretch the relief spring to 27mm, which produces around 30psi with no ill effects.
For low pressure I'd be looking at the check valves right after stretching the relief spring.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - muuris - 10-02-2010
(10-02-2010, 10:02 AM)ForcedInduction Absolute pressure is limited by the lift pump spring strength, even if you loop or block the return flow.
But that mechanical lifter won't make 30psi even if blocked. Don't believe it would make much over that 7psi I measured on light load.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - ForcedInduction - 10-02-2010
(10-02-2010, 03:41 PM)muuris But that mechanical lifter won't make 30psi even if blocked.
Then you've got something wrong.
RE: Electric Fuel pump - muuris - 10-03-2010
(10-02-2010, 10:48 PM)ForcedInduction Then you've got something wrong.
Do you a data sheet from the factory that suggests that it should make such a high pressure for that kind of pump? Or have you measured yourself?
I think the stock OM606 fuel filter connectors would leak with 30psi. It doesn't have banjos like the old ones, but crappy plastic pieces with o-rings and a holy spirit holding the things together.