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+--- Thread: Real #'s (/showthread.php?tid=458)
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RE: Real #'s - willbhere4u - 09-17-2009
any videos of that? sounds cool I would love to see a dyno sheet
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 09-17-2009
Stock internals?
RE: Real #'s - larryratcliff - 09-17-2009
(09-17-2009, 05:47 PM)MJF 341.5hp/535nm 1.8bar 617a, dynoed here locally. 7mm pump, hx40. From Mersuforum
Wow! That would be a lot of fun to drive. Is 26.1 psi going to impact the life of the engine? Is that hx40 a VTM turbo? it would be interesting to see the graph and where the power comes on. I clicked the link but I dont read what ever language that is.
(09-17-2009, 07:08 PM)ForcedInduction Stock internals?
Looks like at minimum there was some head work done from the links on the page... reshaping port internals and bowl work.
Would be nice to know if the rods pistons and crank are stock.
I wonder what kind of fuel economy you could get out of beast like that
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 09-18-2009
(09-17-2009, 11:40 PM)larryratcliff it would be interesting to see the graph and where the power comes on.
341hp sounds awesome, but with a HUGE non-wastegated turbine housing its bound to be a narrow RPM range dyno-queen.
RE: Real #'s - winmutt - 09-18-2009
Is there a dyno chart? Is it this car?
![[Image: 8143010478550657864orig.jpg]](http://www.kuvaboxi.fi/mediaobjects/orig/pub/2009/05/23/8143010478550657864orig.jpg)
RE: Real #'s - Motorhead - 09-18-2009
That's great, so what is the word on I/P's?
RE: Real #'s - willbhere4u - 09-18-2009
I think that this dyno is the wagon that had the supercharger on it! If you scroll down the links that are on the page there and there are a bunch of pic's of it being built
RE: Real #'s - winmutt - 09-18-2009
(09-18-2009, 11:02 AM)Motorhead That's great, so what is the word on I/P's?
What word in particular?
RE: Real #'s - Tymbrymi - 09-18-2009
(09-17-2009, 05:47 PM)MJF 341.5hp/535nm 1.8bar 617a, dynoed here locally. 7mm pump, hx40. From Mersuforum
Awesome!!!
Don't worry about the folks here calling it a dyno-queen or anything else. It is still far better than anything we have over here, and it shows that a significant amount of effort went into building it.Of course, feel free to tell us anything about the car! We'll be listening very closely.
RE: Real #'s - Hulkgreen - 09-20-2009
(09-18-2009, 11:33 AM)willbhere4u I think that this dyno is the wagon that had the supercharger on it! If you scroll down the links that are on the page there and there are a bunch of pic's of it being built
I followed some links and came across the build up of the green wagon and it is turbo charged and supercharged !! With ALOT of Custom Fabriction of aluminum .... It produced so much BOOST they had to use metal straps at all the pipe joints where there is silicone hose !!!
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.motorsport/images/mb%20034.jpg
RE: Real #'s - Motorhead - 09-21-2009
Great install and fab on that wagon, I like the use of a supercharger with the turbo. I'm just getting work caught up at work and will start getting my pile running, for now all I will do is reseal the engine & trans. That will give me the time to build my spare engine and trans, I still have no clue what is the best way to go with the I/P.
What is the latest word, M or MW and what size elements 6mm,7mm?
RE: Real #'s - tomnik - 09-21-2009
(09-21-2009, 09:10 AM)Motorhead I still have no clue what is the best way to go with the I/P.
What is the latest word, M or MW and what size elements 6mm,7mm?
617 engine: MW65 Holly
603/606 engine: M75 Floyd
Cheaper for both: MW60 and M60 or M70 are available.
I personally would never try to use a n/a IP in a turbo.
This should not be considered as the latest word, like always my personal opinion.
Tom
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 09-21-2009
(09-21-2009, 11:09 PM)tomnik I personally would never try to use a n/a IP in a turbo.
No reason not to. The only differences are the ALDA and tuning.
RE: Real #'s - tomnik - 09-22-2009
No difference in tuning. Why? Quantities can be the same, the governor can be adjusted for nearly all needs, no difference in basics.
No ALDA on a turbo is a compromise and produces black smoke or does not use potential.
The one and only reason that the M’s are popular for STD in 617a engines is that there are no substitute elements out of other IPs that fit and match the requirements.
MWs are so much easier to adjust (the pump itself) and there is no risk of trapping the plunger when tightening the DV holder and the forces in between element and DV holder remain in the (strong) barrel, not via the housing.
Tom
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 09-22-2009
(09-22-2009, 01:10 AM)tomnik No difference in tuning. Why? Quantities can be the same, the governor can be adjusted for nearly all needs, no difference in basics.Tuning IS fuel quantity and governor settings.
Quote:No ALDA on a turbo is a compromise and produces black smoke or does not use potential.Only with an unskilled or uncaring driver and a slow turbo.
Quote:The one and only reason that the M’s are popular for STD in 617a engines is that there are no substitute elements out of other IPs that fit and match the requirements.No, its popular because its a better pump (more modern design) and because its the only model Myna accepts.
Quote:MWs are so much easier to adjust (the pump itself)Removing the oil filter housing for each adjustment hardly contributes to being "much easier". The only major advantage it has is the ability to remove the rack limiter entirely for full fuel without affecting other settings.
Quote:and there is no risk of trapping the plunger when tightening the DV holder and the forces in between element and DV holder remain in the (strong) barrel, not via the housing.The forces are hydraulic pressure. The body is capable of handling far more pressure than the pump can supply.
RE: Real #'s - tomnik - 09-22-2009
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction Tuning IS fuel quantity and governor settings.I mean no difference in tuning when you compare the 2 IPs
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction Only with an unskilled or uncaring driver and a slow turbo.This is compromise!
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction No, its popular because its a better pump (more modern design) and because its the only model Myna accepts.more modern does not mean better.
Myna accepts the M because they have no larger elements for MW and that does not make the M pump better.
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction Removing the oil filter housing for each adjustment hardly contributes to being "much easier"."the pump itself" =bench time
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction The only major advantage it has is the ability to remove the rack limiter entirely for full fuel without affecting other settings.On a good IP there is no need to alter adjustments (except full load with external adjustment). Removing the rack limiter is also not the clean technical solution.
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction The forces are hydraulic pressure. The body is capable of handling far more pressure than the pump can supply.Pre tension for the seals is more than hydraulic pressure. I sometimes hear of broken bodies and more often of trapped plungers. Also here the MW design is technically cleaner.
Tom
RE: Real #'s - Motorhead - 09-22-2009
OK I have a couple of MW pumps ('82 & '84), what is the best place to send one of them to and what should I have done to it of should I get an M pump? [/align]
RE: Real #'s - winmutt - 09-22-2009
Local Bosch shop. If you plan on getting tomniks elements then make sure they are OK with doing that. Rebuild will cost ~$900, putting it on the bench is ~$200. Makes the mynadiesel M pump look not so bad.
RE: Real #'s - willbhere4u - 09-22-2009
what is a Motoroam winmutt? what is the going rate with shipping in U.S. for a myna pump?
RE: Real #'s - ForcedInduction - 09-22-2009
(09-22-2009, 04:33 AM)tomnik This is compromise!So? Everything is a compromise when building a powerful daily driver.
Quote:Myna accepts the M because they have no larger elements for MW and that does not make the M pump better.They have their own elements made for the M-pump, nothing stops them from doing the same or using the known 8mm or 10mm plungers for the MW.
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction Removing the rack limiter is also not the clean technical solution.Whats not clean? Unless somebody removes the cover there is no visible way to tell whats been done. Just like with Myna, full load can be limited externally via throttle travel limits.
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction Pre tension for the seals is more than hydraulic pressure.The o-rings only seal against feed (lift pump) pressure, not injection. With the 27mm relief spring that means little more than 30psi.
(09-22-2009, 12:33 PM)winmutt Local Bosch shop. If you plan on getting tomniks elements then make sure they are OK with doing that.Thats the big deal and the main reason why I sold you my 6mm M-pump. No IP shop within 100miles of me would agree to touch my pump the moment I mentioned doing anything other than a rebuild/tune to factory calibration. Even the independent shops wouldn't since it would have been a one-off job (unprofitable).
(09-22-2009, 01:49 PM)willbhere4u what is a Motoroam winmutt? what is the going rate with shipping in U.S. for a myna pump?
Quote:krashappy
Re: contact Myna
To: ForcedInduction
From "The Dude" himself:
The basic cost of the injection pump rebuild is 950€ (euro).
With that horsepower target the original LDA should do fine.
If reaching over 450hp for street use a custom LDA is recommended for
sensible control over fuel delivery.
Custom LDA would increase the cost by 200€.
The shipment costs from Finland to USA is 80-120€ depending on the delivery speed.
RE: Real #'s - willbhere4u - 09-22-2009
Ok 1070 Euro is $1580 U.S. thats not far off the rebuild of a stock one!
RE: Real #'s - tomnik - 09-23-2009
(09-22-2009, 02:47 PM)ForcedInduction So? Everything is a compromise when building a powerful daily driver.Technically correct! Operating an element (end of effective stroke) beyond the calculated point is not correct=high exhaust temp and bad emission.
(09-22-2009, 02:47 PM)ForcedInduction They have their own elements made for the M-pump, nothing stops them from doing the same or using the known 8mm or 10mm plungers for the MW.They do not have their own elements! The 8 and 10mm MW will not work in our small MW (plunger stroke)
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction Whats not clean?End of effective stroke, see above. Effective stroke has to end before the plunger has reached its max, travel speed. The curve "plunger travel over cam rotation" is like a long "S". Starting slowly for filling the element, increasing speed for the range of effective stroke and slowing down near TDC.
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction The o-rings only seal against feed (lift pump) pressure, not injection. With the 27mm relief spring that means little more than 30psi.Misunderstanding here: I am talking of fixing the element in the IP body. On M with the DV holder and the thread is in the IP body. On the MW the DV holder is direcly in the element and the element is separately fixed in the IP body. Often on Ms it happens that the plunger gets trapped when you fix the DV holder and the seats below the elements are worn and on top the thread for the DV holder is directly in the alloy IP body.
(09-22-2009, 02:19 AM)ForcedInduction Thats the big deal and the main reason why I sold you my 6mm M-pump. No IP shop within 100miles of me would agree to touch my pump the moment I mentioned doing anything other than a rebuild/tune to factory calibration. Even the independent shops wouldn't since it would have been a one-off job (unprofitable).
I am working on a contact in the US who can do it and also want to. i'll let you know.
Concerning the cost for swapping the elements including rebuild of the IP (new gasket set, no parts damaged) and custom adjustment I can tell more in about 10 days. Right now I have an IP (MW) sent to a shop and I will join the adjustment and note the settings, hopefully on Monday. The final cost has to be discussed with them but in any case below 500 EURs.
Tom
RE: Real #'s - Tymbrymi - 09-23-2009
(09-22-2009, 02:47 PM)ForcedInduction(09-22-2009, 04:33 AM)tomnik This is compromise!So? Everything is a compromise when building a powerful daily driver.
Everyone is willing to take different compromises. Personally, I want to be able to get in and floor it without making the people disappear behind me (and mostly the resultant sky high EGT). With an electronic rack this won't be a problem though!
(09-23-2009, 01:35 AM)tomnik Operating an element (end of effective stroke) beyond the calculated point is not correct=high exhaust temp and bad emission.Not always... keep in mind that MB used a 5.5mm element for the entire range of HPs available up to the ~175HP OM606. You are definitely limited though, but we all knew that anyway.
(09-23-2009, 01:35 AM)tomnik The 8 and 10mm MW will not work in our small MW (plunger stroke)x2 There are two different sizes of the MW pump, and I'm pretty sure they won't work in our pump.
(09-23-2009, 01:35 AM)tomnik Effective stroke has to end before the plunger has reached its max, travel speed. The curve "plunger travel over cam rotation" is like a long "S". Starting slowly for filling the element, increasing speed for the range of effective stroke and slowing down near TDC.That makes good sense! Do you also happen to have a technical reference of some kind that talks about this? I would be very interested in reading it.
(09-23-2009, 01:35 AM)tomnik Concerning the cost for swapping the elements including rebuild of the IP (new gasket set, no parts damaged) and custom adjustment I can tell more in about 10 days. Right now I have an IP (MW) sent to a shop and I will join the adjustment and note the settings, hopefully on Monday. The final cost has to be discussed with them but in any case below 500 EURs.
I'm assuming that price is for tuning only? ie, doesn't include the elements as well?
RE: Real #'s - tantank79 - 09-23-2009
Any chance you guys want to take this to another thread so we can hear more about the car posted earlier?
RE: Real #'s - Motorhead - 09-23-2009
Another thread is OK but I started this thread to get some #'s and as I am learning about the 617 I see the I/P is the limit so start a new one if you want or continue with all the great info here.
I build gas engines that make 2,500+h.p. but know so very little about my diesel and I will need all the knoledge you guys can share, thanks again for all the help.
RE: Real #'s - tomnik - 09-24-2009
(09-23-2009, 06:18 AM)Tymbrymi Do you also happen to have a technical reference of some kind that talks about this? I would be very interested in reading it.
enjoy it. (out of the yellow technical Bosch books)
The 500 EUR is a rough estimation for swap and set-up. Elements not included, still waiting for the final cost calculation.
Tom
RE: Real #'s - winmutt - 09-24-2009
That is upside down...
RE: Real #'s - winmutt - 09-24-2009
Do you have any info on calibrating the M pump? I have 6mm elements I want to swap in but not sure how fuel quantity is calibrated etc.
RE: Real #'s - tomnik - 09-24-2009
(09-24-2009, 01:17 PM)winmutt Do you have any info on calibrating the M pump? I have 6mm elements I want to swap in but not sure how fuel quantity is calibrated etc.
You want to do it on your own?
Install the elements, check begin of delivery of each element and get them better than 0.5 deg by changing the roller that is running on the cam. Different roller diameters are available therefore (this is one of the big disadvantages of the M compared to the MW, there you just have to change the shims under the element flange).
Then adjust equal quantity by adjusting the rod connection behind the left side cover. Next is putting on the governor and at least adjusting the start quantity to spec. All further adjustments is up to your needs.
This info just came out of my head. As I do not have the tools and a bench I get this job done by a specialist.
Tom
RE: Real #'s - winmutt - 09-25-2009
I would like to do a rough calibration so I can make sure I am not wasting my money sending it to a bench to be properly calibrated.
RE: Real #'s - dalek - 09-25-2009
(09-20-2009, 10:54 AM)Hulkgreen I followed some links and came across the build up of the green wagon and it is turbo charged and supercharged !! With ALOT of Custom Fabriction of aluminum .... It produced so much BOOST they had to use metal straps at all the pipe joints where there is silicone hose !!!
http://www.kolumbus.fi/valtonen.motorsport/images/mb%20034.jpg
Funny thing is that I think I not only know what supercharger that is but I also might have one. Small world I tell you