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+--- Thread: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs (/showthread.php?tid=6521)
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RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 09-10-2015
Ok, but newtons to lbs is 1n=.2248----lbs.
So your saying that stock springs have a seat pressure of 57n or 12lbs. And full lift of 170n or 38.2lbs
And the 612 springs are 110/317n or 24/71lbs.
These numbers have to be way off. Or are completely different than a turbo 606. As I already posted we measured the stock om606 turbo springs at 55/110lbs. And the new ones are going to be 74/173. So that would be like 330/800n.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-10-2015
no way ,
a stock 605 Spring color code yellow and green, can never require 80kg/f at 26mm compression, cause 800N/9.2 is almost 80KG/F
not even a 612, maybe it requires 30kg/f at 26mm compression. more less what i tested.... your numbers are a way too far unless u have a already modified engine!!!
whats the color code on the springs??? MB identyfy the springs by color code and wire diameter
thats interesting your numbers....
u´re maybe right there´s a problema in my scale. give-me some time to figure it out
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 09-10-2015
I do not know what the color codes are but the 800n was for the new springs from Ferrea. The stock springs were less like 500n.
But your numbers honestly make less sense to me unless we are simply talking about different things. I do not see how any engine would have springs that soft much less a boosted one. Even factory stock boost would keep the intake valves open with 12lb springs in them. No way anyone would be running 20-30lbs of boost on them.
We must be talking about different measurements.
Anyways. I am going to pull the trigger on the Ferrea springs as soon as we have the hardware sorted out.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-11-2015
new numbers , maybe u like more this ones....
605 @ comp height 27mm 215N
612 @ comp height 27mm 417N
test error more less 5%
this ones are pretty much acurrate, they were collected using old/used springs
New ones can reach more 10% but nothing like 800N , wich i consider to be too much.
as said previously u have M104 springs rated from 400N till 600N , they use them in diff displacement engines i belive.
depending on price maybe i´ll go this way.
anyhow give us some more info on those ones u mentioned, despite they are from a proibited region , we never know.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 09-11-2015
I have to ask when you convert newtons to lbs what do you get? Are you measuring newtons per square centimeter?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-11-2015
no man, my measure is not like that.
i measure like MB factory does is KG/F kilograms force, basically u apply weight on top of Spring til it reaches desired compression , the Newton measure is just a question of maths, the weighing device or scale , can´t play KG or LBS.
it can but u can´t compare. so my testing was made with reeference in KG/F . and then converted to newton with a factor of 9.2Newton to kilogram.
why u say that , stock Spring in a 605/6 are really week i can easyly compress one in my hand. like 10mm compression
so u can do the same , u can see they are very week.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-14-2015
Update on the Spring issue
somewhere in the line i´ve done some mystake and ended up confusing and dress the shirt by the feet. since my engine was formerlly a N/A whe i converted it to turbo i changed the head too, not totally but the parts that needed and those were , exaust valves, and springs, the head was made to flow better and the N/A intake cam was left in place, one tooth behind.
The reason the numbers were not adding on was cause i was testing on the N/A springs.
Now the engine is fitted with stronguer than stock springs at the intake side. springs used were the OM 612 intake.
OM 612.962 uses intake oval wire Spring 47mm height color code red purple/pink and white. 420N at compression height 27mm
exaust 2.8 wire 47mm height colour code yellow and green . 220N at compression height 27mm
OM 605.960 uses same Spring for exaust and intake colour code white and yellow, 320N @compression height 27mm.
some versions of the M104 and M111 uses a Spring part number A111.053.00.20 colour code purple yellow or yellow yellow, rated at 600N
this Spring is not drop in, but only need a slight grind at the base, and the Spring seat should be changed by the one in the engine OM612.962 , users of N/A intake cams should exercise care about the compression height of 27mm.
the Spring found in the OM611/2/3 are drop in for 605/6 . and they run great for intake.
in few days the part numbers for a drop in swap will be posted.
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - hooblah - 09-15-2015
What's the reason for changing inlet springs? Are people seeing valve float at high rpm?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-15-2015
as promissed part number for the valve i was talking about....
A 611.053.02.20 , Spring plate can be the same as the 605/6
drop in !!!!
even if they dont float, for those who have a IP able to pump past 6000Rpm they do improve a lot the engine performance.
well at least in mine
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - EvoPeter - 09-17-2015
(09-14-2015, 03:20 PM)barrote intake cam was left in place, one tooth behind.
What gains did you get by doing this? I also have a om605 turbo engine with N/A intake cam. But i have it in the same spot as turbo cam.
So 611.053.02.20 is rated 30% stiffer then om605 original valve springs? My new engine i will rev 7000rpm so i need some good springs. I was running around 6300-6500rpm on the revlimiter this summer with stock springs drifting.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-17-2015
(09-17-2015, 07:06 AM)EvoPeter(09-14-2015, 03:20 PM)barrote intake cam was left in place, one tooth behind.
What gains did you get by doing this? I also have a om605 turbo engine with N/A intake cam. But i have it in the same spot as turbo cam.
So 611.053.02.20 is rated 30% stiffer then om605 original valve springs? My new engine i will rev 7000rpm so i need some good springs. I was running around 6300-6500rpm on the revlimiter this summer with stock springs drifting.
One thoth behind is a matter of saying
,My engine was lagging almost 10º , diference between camshaft correct place and crankshaft correct position, so a new chain was needed, but is too expensive 190€plus 23tax rate , so
.redrill the sprocket , wich is in the exaust cam. power drill and eye measures , ended up staying a 3º before OT
, one thooth behind, if u consider the exaust does not matter.diference, the engine is going through the 5500 still pushing against the seat, that with the mentioned valves the 611 in the intake.
The 611.053.02.20 is drop in solution and is 30% stiffer than a 605.96X stock Spring.
what u would want is something else, pm me and i´ll try to explain ....
i´m tired of writing for the fishes....
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 09-22-2015
(09-15-2015, 03:34 PM)barrote as promissed part number for the valve i was talking about....If these are really the same shape and stiffer, then fantastic, thank you for finding out!
A 611.053.02.20 , Spring plate can be the same as the 605/6
drop in !!!!
even if they dont float, for those who have a IP able to pump past 6000Rpm they do improve a lot the engine performance.
Luckily the same part number was also used in the OM648, so they are readily available here in the US as well.
Always better to be safe than sorry when it comes to springs in an engine that gets abused.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - deviance - 10-21-2015
so can I oder 24pcs A 611 053 02 20 spring to my om606?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - EvoPeter - 10-21-2015
(10-21-2015, 06:35 AM)deviance so can I oder 24pcs A 611 053 02 20 spring to my om606?
Yes. They are only 25% stiffer so im going to run with KMcams valvesprings due to my 7000rpm limit. But i have both the 611 and 111 on my workbench.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 10-21-2015
the A111 part number is not stiff enough ?
as i told u in PM they can be made to work with 5 min cutting and grinding.
i´m not just sure if they clear enough with the N/A intake cams.
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - deviance - 10-21-2015
and 24pcs or 12pcs
Change all or only the exhaust side?
Thank You Guys!
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 10-22-2015
Lol ,
if i were u i would change the intake side and leave the exaust as it is.... or if depending on walet size... change all of them...
but that is my opinion...
But there´s something u need to know about changing the exaust side: in order to have a good behaviour the Spring seat must be changed to the part number mentioned, despite in the intake side u can remove the seat with a magnetic tool, the exaust wont come off without removing the valve seal, depending on your technic to remove the seal i may end up damaging some of them, so seals may be required too.
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - deviance - 10-22-2015
I have twin turbo setup and my problem is about 2000-2500 one cylinder is stop and hard to start again (i dont know in english sorry) i think i have too big emap. When i used with one turbo i get this problem about 5500.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 10-22-2015
This thread is about drop in springs or any type of Spring ... that is drop in or other solution
if your engine is not running well , that is another issue wich has nothing to do with valve strenght...
of course if i can help u solving the matter i´ll be happy but for that u need to post a lot more info
regards...
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - EvoPeter - 10-23-2015
(10-21-2015, 08:58 AM)barrote the A111 part number is not stiff enough ?
as i told u in PM they can be made to work with 5 min cutting and grinding.
i´m not just sure if they clear enough with the N/A intake cams.
regards
Yeah i know. But i dont know how well the spring will respond to the N/A cam and the cutting and grinding so im going to run with the KMcams springs instead. They said their springs supports up to 13mm lift. Could be good if i wanted different cams in the future.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 10-23-2015
i installed one (111) after some 5 min grinding and cutting and shaping ended very well 11mm lift , and as i said ...
of couse it is possible to make it 12mm but 11 is nough , valve lift even with the N/A cam should be less than 9mm.
For how much is that KM cam Spring ? with seat and holder?
regards... the might be cheaper than using a MB
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - EvoPeter - 10-23-2015
(10-23-2015, 04:42 AM)barrote i installed one (111) after some 5 min grinding and cutting and shaping ended very well 11mm lift , and as i said ...
of couse it is possible to make it 12mm but 11 is nough , valve lift even with the N/A cam should be less than 9mm.
For how much is that KM cam Spring ? with seat and holder?
regards... the might be cheaper than using a MB
regards
Well did the calculations now and KMcams wants total 350euro. MB wants 180euro for 10x 611 springs, 10x 111 springs, 10x spring plate for m111.
But i have not still made up my mind to 100% yet.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 10-23-2015
yep i see..., i belive i can make a package for u , with a litle less than that....
hold your decision as much as u can. i´ll get in touch
regards.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - deviance - 11-09-2015
I got 48pcs so i have A 611 053 02 20 sale for 100 euros!
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 11-09-2015
(10-22-2015, 04:09 AM)barrote But there´s something u need to know about changing the exaust side: in order to have a good behaviour the Spring seat must be changed to the part number mentioned, despite in the intake side u can remove the seat with a magnetic tool, the exaust wont come off without removing the valve seal, depending on your technic to remove the seal i may end up damaging some of them, so seals may be required too.
To be clear, does this only apply to the 111 springs, or also to the 611?
Thanks.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 11-10-2015
Hello fine people,
The A111 sping mentioned above, does not fit drop in, but can be easily modified to fit. this procedure is not recomended for beguinners.
The A611 is drop in, but as stated for those who want to replace all springs for the A611, the Spring seat/holder should be replaced as well, and in this case the seat on the exaust side does not come off without removing the valve stem seal.
it has to do with the valve guide and nothing to do with the Spring or seat.
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - deviance - 11-10-2015
I need 020 Mercedes A 6060531025 SPRING RETAINET TOP for exhaust side?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 11-10-2015
(11-10-2015, 04:24 AM)barrote The A611 is drop in, but as stated for those who want to replace all springs for the A611, the Spring seat/holder should be replaced as well, and in this case the seat on the exaust side does not come off without removing the valve stem seal.
it has to do with the valve guide and nothing to do with the Spring or seat.
Interesting. How does changing the spring affect the valve guide? Sorry, I am not understanding.
According to the EPC, the OM648 engine that uses the 611 springs comes with the standard OM606 seats:
http://mercedes-benz-teile.info/view_SubGroupAction.php?lang=E&mode=BM&class=1&aggtyp=FG&catalog=64V&model=211226&spmno=0&spmaggtyp=M&spmaggmdl=648961&spmaggcat=63T&group=05&subgrp=060
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - EvoPeter - 11-11-2015
Yesterday i installed A611 springs on exaust side and KMCams performance springs on intake side with their bottom plate. Straight drop in. Lets see when the summer comes if they make 7000rpm. They should when standard springs worked good with 6500rpm and 2,5bars boost when drifting.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 11-11-2015
(11-10-2015, 06:47 PM)Matej(11-10-2015, 04:24 AM)barrote The A611 is drop in, but as stated for those who want to replace all springs for the A611, the Spring seat/holder should be replaced as well, and in this case the seat on the exaust side does not come off without removing the valve stem seal.
it has to do with the valve guide and nothing to do with the Spring or seat.
Interesting. How does changing the spring affect the valve guide? Sorry, I am not understanding.
According to the EPC, the OM648 engine that uses the 611 springs comes with the standard OM606 seats:
http://mercedes-benz-teile.info/view_SubGroupAction.php?lang=E&mode=BM&class=1&aggtyp=FG&catalog=64V&model=211226&spmno=0&spmaggtyp=M&spmaggmdl=648961&spmaggcat=63T&group=05&subgrp=060
if it does why do u worry about that!!!
i´m sure they dont, the seat for the A611 Spring is listed above and phisically they are a bit diff too , despite all that diff the Spring will not come out , even the Spring retainer is diff but again u can use them as well , the Spring does not go anywhere....
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 11-11-2015
(11-11-2015, 07:37 AM)EvoPeter Yesterday i installed A611 springs on exaust side and KMCams performance springs on intake side with their bottom plate. Straight drop in.So you had no trouble fitting the 611 springs on the exhaust side with the stock OM606 spring seats?
(11-11-2015, 04:41 PM)barrote if it does why do u worry about that!!!Sorry, it was not my intention to offend you, I was only looking at part numbers in the EPC. I guess I will find out for myself when I get another OM606.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - EvoPeter - 11-12-2015
(11-11-2015, 11:45 PM)MatejI did measure them before installation after reading barrote´s post. The A611 spring i mounted on exaust side was 0,5mm wider on the outside but from what i could see it was a good fit.(11-11-2015, 07:37 AM)EvoPeter Yesterday i installed A611 springs on exaust side and KMCams performance springs on intake side with their bottom plate. Straight drop in.So you had no trouble fitting the 611 springs on the exhaust side with the stock OM606 spring seats?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - EvoPeter - 11-12-2015
Tried to make an attachment but it didnt work so here is a pic i uploaded.
Click to see full picture.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 11-12-2015
(11-11-2015, 04:41 PM)t barrote if it does why do u worry about that!!!Sorry, it was not my intention to offend you, I was only looking at part numbers in the EPC. I guess I will find out for myself when I get another OM606.
[/quote]
i´m not upset, u should use MB EPC to check those things.... can imagine the assle it is to drive in MB parts store , chat with people use the system, compare things , and then somebody say seats are the same as 606!!! yes they are cause
611/12/13/46/47/48 have at the intake the same Spring as the 604/5/6 intake Spring , so seat is the same daddada
The Spring u want is exaust!!! and exaust is diff
as another member said , people should read more....
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 12-15-2015
So i have not gotten the 6110530220 or the 0120 spring personally but I was looking into it. I found in WIS documents about the change and the spring force on the seat. And was surprised to find that it said it went from 150n - 250n at about the same install height. This is the same as we measured the stock om606 turbo spring. I found several threads on sprinter forums about it as well. It does look like a direct fitment but it also looks to be the same basic spring rate. I am going to order one in just for giggles and measure it. I do not know if other engines maybe n/a have softer springs or if they are worn out.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 12-22-2015
Valve spring tester is not here yet but I got the springs in yesterday did a quick test where I put the 611 spring and the 606 spring on a bolt and tightened it down. Stiffer spring will not compress as much. All in all they look to be pretty close to the same. I will get real specs when the spring tester comes in. Still dealing with Ferrea our setup as well. Wrong locators and to small inner dia. for exh side came in last week and we are trying again.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 12-22-2015
missing the V engines... dddadad maybe some of them do the trick too.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - MartinB - 01-01-2016
In newer OM611/12/13 is reduced closing force on INLET VALVE SPRINGS from 250N to 150N. Exhaust is still the same. And yes Whipplem104, they must be same. OM606 and early OM611 use identical valve springs
part no. 606 053 05 20 - replaced by 611 053 00 20 - replaced by 611 053 02 20. So.. 606 053 05 20 = 611 053 02 20. Surprise or disappointment?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - MartinB - 01-01-2016
And Barrote, you are wrong with your converting. 1 kilogramme-force = 9,807 newton.
So, your measuring 612 @ comp height 27mm 417N/9,2= 45,326kgf*9,8= 444N = 100 lbs
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 01-03-2016
Whatever u say!!! I did ended the right and wrong discussion long time ago.
I' m happy with my springs. Are u with yours?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - MartinB - 01-03-2016
I hope, that i will be
Just want to share what I found in EPC.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 01-04-2016
Yes thanks for having EPC. Cause i don't!!!
Would u be a gentleman and check in the wis for 605.960 spring part number and test data?
And same for the 612.98?
Thanks in advance?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - MartinB - 01-04-2016
I wrote it in my previous post (#88). For 612.98 is this change as of 335865 engine number.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 01-04-2016
i see.
In the picture i posted , there is 605/6 td springs and 612.8 springs from exaust, even the diff colour code is visible.
The measures i made to this springs gave me about 25% stiffeness, and by measuring the wire size that can be visible aswell.
I belive CDI engine at some point used the 606 part number , and then a new part number came around 611 and MB discontinued the 606 part number.
The intake Spring in CDI´s is the same as 605/6 N/A very soft one, but part number became 611, and the 606 one was discontinued.
This does not mean u can´t have them, when consulting the WIS tool this part numbers still exist , and replacement parts are noted in the MB EPC, and consequently u can purchase them.
The WIS tool give along with the maintnance charts , service letters wich explain this changes, and sometimes why they happened.
in your post 88, u dont have the test data for the diff springs, 606 Vs 611.
regards