+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: Delivery valves (/showthread.php?tid=120)
Re: Delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 12-05-2008
Quote:why would they design brake lines to swell? how are these different?
Why do you think the brake pedal has some give to it when you step on the brakes? Why is it not the same feel as stepping on a block of concrete?
One glaring difference in the comparison of a brake system to an injection system is that the "plunger" for the brake system is enormous relative to the line volume, whereas with the injection system, that is not the case. Another is that the injection system is trying to squirt fuel out the other end, whereas with the brake system it is trying to actuate a piston. Again, the "flexibility" is still observed in the brake system. If you don't believe me, go stomp on the brakes a few times. You will not ever get it to harden up to the point where it doesn't give at least a little bit (or you will burst something)..
Re: Delivery valves - totaldisaster - 12-05-2008
that was a simple example. If they (lines?) were designed to give in that direction, they would be regular service items. Fatigue in metals is very real, continuous repetitive cycles would weaken the lines. and it probabaly does, but I think it is safe to say that these lines are designed to overcome fatigue due to the presssures they incurr.
What do you think of the volume being increased du to the removal of the collar? I just reread the beginnings of this thread, and I think the added fuel is from more ore less increasing the volume of the cahmber by removing the collar of the DV.
look up the modulus of elasticity for steel - or some steel alloy
Re: Delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 12-05-2008
Young's Modulus. Yes. But the flexing isn't much, and its not really bending the lines back and forth, just sort of bulging them out a little bit, and such a small bit that it is well within the elastic region and doesn't contribute hardly anything at all to hardening and the formation of cracks... thin I know, but its all a guess anyway lol...
Here's an experiment: Get a wooden stake (with blunt ends) about 3ft long. Stick one end on the injector line, and the other end (gently) on the side of your head near your ear. You can "hear", more like feel, the injection pulses in your skull. Why? Something has to be transmitting that pulse to the stick to your head. If not the flexing of the line, then what?
But the question remains: Why does removing the collar from the delivery valve mean more fuel goes in? Is it just due to secondary injections or is it actually more volume per injection?
And: Why does increasing the injector hole size yield more power?
These are really the important things to answer.
Re: Delivery valves - tomnik - 12-06-2008
GREASY_BEAST But the question remains: Why does removing the collar from the delivery valve mean more fuel goes in? Is it just due to secondary injections or is it actually more volume per injection?
And: Why does increasing the injector hole size yield more power?
I'll try again:
it is the collar getting out the bore when the DV moves upwards that opens the way for the fuel towards the injector. No collar and you have a sudden start of flow (just when the increasing pressure of the element lifts the cone).
At the end of injection the damping effect is missing and here you also have a sudden shut down of the flow. Here I am not sure about what happens exactly. The risk of a pressure wave is higher and cause a second injection, depending on pop pressure and if there is a restriction orifice above the DV.
nozzle:
in general I would say it is the duration of injection that is just shorter. Only this might got provide more power but you simply have more time to inject more fuel. That is the original reason on stock engines with better nozzles: decreasing the duration of injection (the same amount of fuel is injected but within a shorter time will increase the efficiency=better mileage and lower emission).
I will collect different DVs for comparison. 616, 617a and 606 and my new custom made one to see the evolution.
How can I upload a xls file?
Tom
Re: Delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 12-06-2008
I'm still having a little trouble believing the story. I see exactly what you mean now, but I'm not sure if it tells all. When the DV moves up (which it does the instant the plunger starts to push if the diesel is incompressible, it displaces some volume in the "injector room". This has to cause the pressure to rise, and if the system is incompressible, it must result in injection... right? I think I have to go learn about fluids, because I believe there is something non-obvious going on here... there is too much that just doesn't quite add up to me. It makes more sense to me if I think of the injector line as being sort of a pressure accumulator, not unlike the air accumulators in the 300TD suspension... If this were the case, if the injector line did indeed absorb some of the energy of the impulse provided by the injector then that would be related to the amount of deformation, which would be related to the restriction in the end (the injector).. that way, some of the swept volume doesn't make it out the end... I know my reasoning is hazy at best, I think this really has to be formulated mathematically to actually understand it, which I don't know how to do.. yet.
EDIT: changed the bold sentence to read "...some of the swept volume..." from "....some of the injection volume..." meaning that the swept volume of the pump element should be the sum total of the volume fuel injected provided there is no compressibility in the system.
Re: Delivery valves - tomnik - 12-07-2008
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0061534.html">http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0061534.html</a><!-- m -->
(not our DV but the principle is the same)
out of this I read that there is a gap between collar and DV cylinder that has also influence on damping. The smaller the gap the smaller the lost volume, but then tends to bounce back (depending on pop pressure).
collar width and location: smaller and the more towards the cone = earlier delivery
collar diameter: smaller =more damping (safer regarding double injection) but more back flow
no collar: max. earliest delivery, but higher risk of double injection (more fuel flowing in the line) and there is absolutely no damping= double injection.
This is just regarding the collar. Weight of DV, spring, pop pressure and line length (time for the reflection wave to arrive at the then closing DV) are not included.
Tom
Re: Delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 12-07-2008
That's cool! I wonder if increasing the pop pressure in conjunction with full cut DV's, and larger nozzles would lessen the likelihood of secondary injections?
Re: Delivery valves - tomnik - 12-08-2008
GREASY_BEAST That's cool! I wonder if increasing the pop pressure in conjunction with full cut DV's, and larger nozzles would lessen the likelihood of secondary injections?
I fear there are too many parameters influencing the DV tweaking. M and MW are not interchangeable. There are 2 versions in the MW of the 617a, I will check what is in my car currently (from a spare IP I have the better ones).
Further I will try to find a little harder springs. Then see how it goes (depending on the weather, I don't drive the car on salty roads).
Tom
Re: Delivery valves - winmutt - 12-08-2008
GREASY_BEAST I think if you do this you will break something, whether it be the internal camshaft in the IP, or something else. The pressure has to go somewhere. However, I think the MW pump is rated for some obscenely high working pressure, so within reason, the idea of increasing pop-pressures with cut DVs could be tried.. I kind of like it so far.. I think it would be more successful if it were done with larger injector nozzles.
One more thing:
The injection can't be just a simple sin(theta) because the injection pump has inside it a cam, with a profile, not a crank.
Per cylinder it is a simple sine wave. The idea still applies regardless of how many other cylnders exist.
There is certainly the chance to break the cam shaft. Someone has to have documentation on that max working pressure. Perhaps a Bosch shop? IDT there is a need to change the injector size as the nozzle is not the impeding force here, it is the pop pressure. I am sure the pump limit is much lower than the max flow.
Re: Delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 12-08-2008
Quote:Per cylinder it is a simple sine wave. The idea still applies regardless of how many other cylnders exist.
Draw a picture of a cam lobe. You will see what I'm talking about.
EDIT: it's actually quite square (well, it exhibits square qualities...)
Re: Delivery valves - winmutt - 12-09-2008
GREASY_BEASTThe cam lobe is an ellipsis with a smaller radius on the side that is not the shaft itself. In rotation this causes the plunger to rise and fall. This plunger movement very much a non square wave over time. The delivery valve acts to make the bottoms more square by setting a secondary pressure stop (making a cut off). If the DV was removed the wave would continue to decrease gradually.Removing material from the bottom of the collar means it pops earlier and closes later making the overall injection sequence longer.Quote:Per cylinder it is a simple sine wave. The idea still applies regardless of how many other cylnders exist.
Draw a picture of a cam lobe. You will see what I'm talking about.
EDIT: it's actually quite square (well, it exhibits square qualities...)
Re: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 12-09-2008
The pump cam is not like the engine cam. Its shaped to have a very fast rise for injection then a very slow return after the peak.
Re: Delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 12-09-2008
Nice pic Forced! So its neither square nor sinusoidal, but something that looks like an ocean wave viewed from the side... Maybe the slow downstroke is to prevent cavitation?
Re: Delivery valves - winmutt - 12-09-2008
GREASY_BEAST Nice pic Forced! So its neither square nor sinusoidal, but something that looks like an ocean wave viewed from the side... Maybe the slow downstroke is to prevent cavitation?
!Its beautiful!
AND it makes complete sense. Particularly in reference to what I was talking about. They are making squarewaves, this is the leading edge and the delivery valve is making it square on the back end. By delaying the delaying the close of the the valve by removing material from the bottom of the collar you are increasing the injection time.
God I would love a Bosch bench. We need to make one.
Re: Delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 12-10-2008
What does a Bosch testbench consist of? Basically, you want to measure the output of each plunger individually, right? So 5 graduated cylinders and a way to spin the thing?
Re: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 12-10-2008
Plus about $100,000 worth of equipment with a 420volt stepper motor to spin the pump an exact number of turns.
![[Image: Tst_Bh_Fuel_Injection_Pump_Test_Bench.jpg]](http://img.alibaba.com/photo/11706225/Tst_Bh_Fuel_Injection_Pump_Test_Bench.jpg)
As simple as they look, nothing any of us do at home could come even remotely close to what those machines do. The best we could hope for is one to come onto the market used for cheap (under $10,000) and fix whatever may be wrong with it.
RE: Delivery valves - totaldisaster - 01-17-2009
Last insight for me on the cut DV:
It is simply the addition of volume from lost metal in the plunger cavity. This explains the overfueling and smoke at low throttle, whereas upper percentages of throttle seem normal.
the ratio of added fuel to stock fuel supply approaches 0:1 as throttle increases.
low throttle ratio of added fuel to stock could be 1:1
expecting the fuel delivery components to accurately 'add' volume due to expansion (especially after 25 years) completely negates the purpose of the $100,000 machine Forced has presented to the equation.
RE: Delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 01-21-2009
(01-17-2009, 03:31 AM)totaldisaster Last insight for me on the cut DV:
It is simply the addition of volume from lost metal in the plunger cavity. This explains the overfueling and smoke at low throttle, whereas upper percentages of throttle seem normal.
Not quite. The "added volume" or maybe "replaced volume" would have no effect on fuel delivered because it does not affect the swept volume of the pumping element. Just increasing the number of resident fuel molecules in the DV holder does not make more fuel molecules move when the plunger plunges. Its a combination of fluid effects. This stuff is available to read about. Google Patents isn't a bad place to look.
Also, the effect you described of the low-end power increasing while top-end power remains constant just wasn't present (at least in my case)... Top end power increased so drastically that it caused "massive" (or at least some) wheelspin and tranny slippage.
RE: Delivery valves - winmutt - 01-22-2009
AFAIK The only thing it does is increase the duration of the injection cycle, there by increasing the amount of fuel. The amount of fuel stroked is not the absolute amount of fuel delivered.
RE: Delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 01-24-2009
Maybe my 35% overbore 265 nozzles courtesy of Jon Link will add some new information to the model! I'll start a new thread about this and link it here.
EDIT: Link to the Injector Nozzles thread
Injector Nozzles
(01-22-2009, 01:53 PM)winmutt AFAIK The only thing it does is increase the duration of the injection cycle, there by increasing the amount of fuel. The amount of fuel stroked is not the absolute amount of fuel delivered.
RE: Delivery valves - HoleshotHolset - 04-08-2009
It's very good to see you guys still hammering out the details on the cut DV's.
I kinda feel like I lobbed a live grenade over the fence by introducing them to you - especially after seeing how they created a rough idle.
BUT - success doesn't come easy...and hats off to those willing to be guinea pigs on these Mercedes IDI engines.
A Mercedes IDI may be in my future soon. I'm growing very bored with my current daily driver and want something without a big payment in this 'interesting' economic climate. I haven't made up my mind as to whether to go with a W124 or W210....both have come WAY down in price over the past few years. The W210 would be the better daily driver - but much harder to crank up due to the electronic controls.
Beers,
Matt
RE: Delivery valves - kamel - 04-09-2009
I would suggest the 124. My dad's 210 is falling to pieces with only 150,xxx on the clock.
RE: Delivery valves - HoleshotHolset - 04-09-2009
(04-09-2009, 12:27 AM)kamel I would suggest the 124. My dad's 210 is falling to pieces with only 150,xxx on the clock.
What exactly is giving up the ghost on that W210? See - it's comments like this that scare people away from the newer chassis!
Getting the turbo'd OM606 with a W210 wrapped around it is tempting.
Beers,
Matt
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 09-04-2009
Here are the DV's from the 617 and 606a M-Pumps.
The numbers are 102-201 and 102-210.
The 617 DV holder is marked 0.030, the 606a 0.024
RE: Delivery valves - kamel - 09-04-2009
Interesting...
BTW: the aforementioned 210 wagon is to the point where the cost of repairs has grown larger than the value as a whole if everything worked. Its a clean comfy car, don't get me wrong but needs WAY too much maintenance and repair.
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 09-04-2009
They're in, but there is no discernible difference in power via the Butt-Dyno®. Just a more rattly idle and a less haze on the top-end. The #5 cylinder's nailing is more pronounced throughout the rpm range too.
I'll give it a week or two to decide if I'll switch back.
RE: Delivery valves - tomnik - 09-04-2009
would be interesting if begin of injection changed, not static begin of delivery. Onlyif this is the same you can compare power.
Tom
RE: Delivery valves - winmutt - 09-04-2009
I am of the opinion that modifying the DV is a false economy. In the picture is om617 on the left?
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 09-04-2009
(09-04-2009, 08:48 AM)winmutt In the picture is om617 on the left?
Yes.
RE: Delivery valves - winmutt - 09-04-2009
IIRC then it looks like it has a greater volume than the om60x one. Odd that.
RE: Delivery valves - SurfRodder - 09-04-2009
(09-04-2009, 03:23 PM)winmutt IIRC then it looks like it has a greater volume than the om60x one. Odd that.
that would make sense as they have the same displacement, no?
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 09-04-2009
(09-04-2009, 04:09 PM)SurfRodder that would make sense as they have the same displacement, no?
Per cylinder the 617 has more air volume, but the 606a pumps nearly 2x the fuel per cylinder.
RE: Delivery valves - SurfRodder - 09-04-2009
(09-04-2009, 04:26 PM)ForcedInduction Per cylinder the 617 has more air volume, but the 606a pumps nearly 2x the fuel per cylinder.
wow, I didnt know that... makes me wanna build up a 606 even more!
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 09-04-2009
(09-04-2009, 05:47 PM)SurfRodder wow, I didnt know that... makes me wanna build up a 606 even more!
Don't forget that I'm talking about the non-turbo 617. 88hp vs 178hp.
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 09-07-2009
The original 617 DVs are back in. I couldn't stand the rattly idle any more.
RE: Delivery valves - Tymbrymi - 09-09-2009
(09-04-2009, 04:26 PM)ForcedInduction Per cylinder the 617 has more air volume, but the 606a pumps nearly 2x the fuel per cylinder.
How do you figure? That doesn't make any sense to me... They are the same displacement, and the 606 is a 4-valve crossflow head vs. a 2-valve counterflow head.
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 09-09-2009
(09-09-2009, 08:07 AM)Tymbrymi How do you figure? That doesn't make any sense to me... They are the same displacement, and the 606 is a 4-valve crossflow head vs. a 2-valve counterflow head.
617na pumps out 17.6hp/cyl.
606a is 29.7hp/cyl.
Even the 617a is 24hp/cyl.
A 617 would have to work 35.6hp/cyl to make the same 178hp as a 606a.
RE: Delivery valves - Tymbrymi - 09-09-2009
(09-09-2009, 10:59 AM)ForcedInduction 617na pumps out 17.6hp/cyl.
606a is 29.7hp/cyl.
Even the 617a is 24hp/cyl.
A 617 would have to work 35.6hp/cyl to make the same 178hp as a 606a.
Sorry, I get the twice as much fuel part, but the 617 having twice the air volume is what confuses me.
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 09-10-2009
Static volume per cylinder.
RE: Delivery valves - Tymbrymi - 09-10-2009
Ahhh... the per cylinder part is what I was missing. Each cylinder has more volume in it because the displacement is the same while there is one less cylinder in the 617. Correct?
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 09-10-2009
Yes. 90.9mm x 92.4mm vs 87mm x 84mm. The oversquare design is also another reason the Finns can revv the 60x to 7k.
The 3.5L 603 changed that to 89mm x 92.4mm.
RE: Delivery valves - willbhere4u - 11-17-2009
I agree compressing a liquid is impossible but the fluid under pressure may expand the lines and housings and cause the pressure waves they where talking about!
like filling a balloon with water if you put a`hole in it it will spray out under pressure but the water didn't compress!
that's why explosives work well under water!!!
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 11-17-2009
All substances are compressible, its known as bulk modulus.
Just because we can't easily see something with our eyes doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Some people have a hard time believing we breathe 75% nitrogen (for example) because nitrogen and oxygen are both clear and odorless.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/bulk-modulus-elasticity-d_585.html
Even diamonds are compressible, 442 GPa, while air's BM is 0.000000142 GPa
RE: Delivery valves - willbhere4u - 11-17-2009
If you turn a fluid in to a gas then you can compress! in a liquid state is is impossible to compress!!!
if u put it under enough pressure to heat it and turn it in to a gas it will compress!
this is simple highs school science!!! fluids don't compress
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 11-17-2009
(11-17-2009, 02:50 PM)willbhere4u If you turn a fluid in to a gas then you can compress! in a liquid state is is impossible to compress!!!Look up "bulk modulus", its a well known scientific fact.
Quote:this is simple highs school science!I think we've moved well beyond high school science here.
FYI, gasses are fluids.
RE: Delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 11-17-2009
(11-17-2009, 08:11 PM)Yagsicnal Son, have you graduated High School?At this point I'm convinced you haven't even completed 1 year of college.
Did you even see the chart? Please, master, explain how they can come up with BM for fluids if they cannot be compressed?
How about The Indian Academy of Sciences? Is their research pseudoscience?
http://www.ias.ac.in/sadhana/Pdf2006Oct/543.pdf
Quote:We are speaking of fluids and fluid compressability is immeasureable, THEREFORE it is an unuseable commodity.Immeasurable and insignificant to Joe Schmoe, but in hydraulic machines where timing is based on fluid movement it plays a big role, as the document I linked to concluded, to the engineer designing a precision device it presents an important factor to build into the design.
http://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/200/Issue/Article/False/70094/Issue
Also, lets not forget that the entire concept of turbocharging revolves around bulk modulus.
Quote:Theory is nice but that is another subject.Absolutely right, we are discussing known facts, not ideas.
Quote:Apparently you are the ...Thats known as an "ad hominem attack" and it will not be tolerated. It is very insulting as well as factually incorrect. Do you really want to stoop down to that level?
Shall we bring out the old saying "Those that can't do, teach", professor?
RE: Delivery valves - Gurkha - 11-17-2009
Dunno about ... but FI's advice are based on substance and I speak from experience.
Fluid is compressible, any change in volume (reduction) due to pressure is considered as compressibility. Mind you there is thermodynamics coming into play here as well. We are talking about density change in fluids if I am not mistaken. Compressibility of fluids is defined as 1 volume-% per 100 bar. In flight simulators servo systems for instance, this same compressibility plays a key part in its performance. Here compressibility is a least desired factor and so delivery valves are placed accordingly.
RE: Delivery valves - tomnik - 11-18-2009
A few days ago I saw a diesel article where they said that the dynamics of injection (IP - injector) is closer to acoustic laws than to mechanical. The pressure waves running in the hard lines produce a lot higher pressure for opening and injection than just out of the IP. The running system is precisely tuned regarding hard line length, inner volume, nozzle spring and of course delivery valve.
The new custom nozzles are nailing like hell (that’s what my friend told me when he tested them). Now I’ll try to get them running by playing with the DV. Let’s see what turns out.
Tom
RE: Delivery valves - willbhere4u - 11-18-2009
ya learn something new every day!!!
RE: Delivery valves - winmutt - 02-10-2010
Someone posted this link on pp:
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Injection/AmbacMenu1.htm
pp link:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showpost.php?p=2402369&postcount=80