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+--- Thread: 617 Franken-5-speed (/showthread.php?tid=323)
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 01-16-2010
(01-16-2010, 01:20 AM)charmalu As a matter of fact, I do have the 5 spd shifter and the 3 shift rods from the 86 190E. I also knocked off the VIN plate from the door post.
I usually try to remember to knock the plate off if Iam taking something major. I have a whole stack of plates from various cars.
this 5 spd I have from the 2.6 16V is totally different than the one you have. the levers on the box, fit on shafts that are splined, similar to the old slope back 4 spd iron box. your 5 spd has arms like the 4 spd with a bolt going into the center.
I`ll take a close up picture in the morning of both sides for comparison and post, now that I have it all clean and pretty.
Charlie
I decided to brave the freezing cold 48deg and fight my way out to the shop
here is a comparison of your 5 spd and mine, and the shift rods I pulled.
the lengths are 15, 21 & 23 inches. sure some goofy ends on a couple of them.
(01-16-2010, 02:56 AM)charmalu(01-16-2010, 01:20 AM)charmalu As a matter of fact, I do have the 5 spd shifter and the 3 shift rods from the 86 190E. I also knocked off the VIN plate from the door post.
I usually try to remember to knock the plate off if Iam taking something major. I have a whole stack of plates from various cars
this 5 spd I have from the 2.6 16V is totally different than the one you have. the levers on the box, fit on shafts that are splined, similar to the old slope back 4 spd iron box. your 5 spd has arms like the 4 spd with a bolt going into the center.
I`ll take a close up picture in the morning of both sides for comparison and post, now that I have it all clean and pretty.
Charlie
I decided to brave the freezing cold 48deg and fight my way out to the shop
here is a comparison of your 5 spd and mine, and the shift rods I pulled.
the lengths are 15, 21 & 23 inches. sure some goofy ends on a couple of them.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 01-16-2010
(01-16-2010, 01:20 AM)charmalu I also knocked off the VIN plate from the door post.
I usually try to remember to knock the plate off if Iam taking something major. I have a whole stack of plates from various cars
Charlie
genius. I wonder if I can get a yard to do that over the phone in the future. There are a total lack of MBs in any junkyards near me.
What does the actual shifter look like? Ive got two shifters that were mailed to me, but unfortunately they are both missing the handle itself, so I can't figure out what the pattern is. Those linkage rods are interesting, the whole transmission looks way older than mine.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 01-16-2010
I don`t have the shift knob either. the end was gone from it so I don`t know the shift pattern.
poking around on the internet I ran across this, don`y know the source but. Getrag gear box same one as used in the BMW M3, E30.
R 2 4
N
1 3 5
now I don`t know if yours and mine are even the same shift pattern.
one picture shows the difference between the 4 spd and 5 spd from the bottom.
Last night I decided to weight the 2 transmissions, that 5 spd is quite a bit heavier. gets heavier every time I move it around.
so I drag out the bathroom scale, weigh me, then pick up, each trans.
4-spd 54 lbs
5 spd 82 lbs.
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 01-16-2010
Ok, this is promising- here are the two I have, supposedly for a W201 5-speed. The nicer one looks similar to yours, except for the direction of the linkage pegs, the crappier one is totally different with no pegs, but looks more advanced with additional plastic and wiring. Its also slightly crushed to add to our fun.
Ive got the knob on the nicer one, but the end is ripped off. Damn it.
So, your 5-speed mechanism has all the linkage nubbins facing in, which kind of looks like the shift pattern above where reverse is next to 2nd.
Mine has two nubbins facing each other and the longest facing out, which kind of looks like the shift pattern above where reverse is next to 4th.
This is really really confusing. On those three shift diagrams, the third wide image is for a VIN off of "supposedly" a 1984 Grey market 190E with a 1-1 final ratio 5-speed, as told to me by the owner when I stole his VIN. What I find interesting is that in all three of the diagrams, the positions of the linkage rods as they relate to the arms on the tranny all look identical. "Maybe" as long as the shifter mechanism and shift rods match, they do the same thing at the tranny? I also still believe in the easter bunny.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 01-16-2010
Your shifter looks like a carbon copy of the one that was on mine.
take a look at my first picture, the holes where the shifters are mounted to the body will not line up.
the 201 uses a smaller rubber gasket. you can see an imprint on the underside of the shifter.
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 01-16-2010
I figure that adapting this mechanism to the hole in the 123 body should be at least straight forward, if not overly simple.
I took a picture of my shifter positioned the same way as yours, what do you suppose this metal bracket over on the right controls on both of them? They both clearly bolt to the same body style, but after that, different applications which I guess is a good sign since mines an overdrive and your's is a 1-1. I thinking about building some kind of framework to work this out outside of a car before puttting the tranny in. I just see myself losing my mind when all these shifting rods arrive in the mail.
Question 2- When you pulled yours out, was there anything that involved those two clips on either side of the shifter arms?
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 01-16-2010
I figured out what that plate is for. think it is for the reverse position.
hold the shifter up side down against your body, move the shift lever and you will see the pin move towards the slot. I couldn`t get it in because of the spring holding it.
I took a better picture showing it.
here is what the Haynes manual shows for the lever arrangement.
are you refering to the clips holding the shift levers to the shifter levers?
It is just those flat clips, I got one off, then shifted the trans lever to line up the next clip etc...
why wouldn`t the 4 spd shift rods work? just have to shorten them and maybe tweek them a little. or so it would seem.
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 01-16-2010
Could be that they would! All the levers are pretty much in the same place, why not? This image clears up everything and is SOOO much clearer than the MB parts diagrams. Again, many thanks
It seems I should start there with the three standard 240 rods, and see if it works before buying anything else. This is the most comprehensive Haynes manual I think I have ever seen.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 01-17-2010
(01-16-2010, 06:44 PM)dropnosky I figure that adapting this mechanism to the hole in the 123 body should be at least straight forward, if not overly simple.
I took a picture of my shifter positioned the same way as yours, what do you suppose this metal bracket over on the right controls on both of them? They both clearly bolt to the same body style, but after that, different applications which I guess is a good sign since mines an overdrive and your's is a 1-1. I thinking about building some kind of framework to work this out outside of a car before puttting the tranny in. I just see myself losing my mind when all these shifting rods arrive in the mail.
Question 2- When you pulled yours out, was there anything that involved those two clips on either side of the shifter arms?
This is interesting, your shifter is exactly like the Haynes manual. (Note: Post# 106 picture)
look close at yours and mine.
Mine, the shift finger pins are, right, left, left. the reverse plate slot goes up.
Yours, the shift finger pins are left, right, left. the reverse plate slot goes down.
this tells me we each have different shift patterns.
also your other 5 spd shifter looks way different. wonder what that fits?
wonder where I can find some info on my transmission? exactly where it fits in? the Haynes lists the 717.412, 717.410 transmissions and not the 717.404. what other applications was it used in? Iam going to be on the hunt for another 2.3 16V to see if it has the same trans as mine. or did someone swap it in from something else. when I pulled the shift levers off, and noticed how different 2 of them are, made me think maybe someone cobbled it together. especially when that one has the splice in it..
I don`t know why I didn`t see it until you pointed it out that my input shaft plate is a different design than yours. with yours being the same as the 4-spd, made it a lot easier to make your input shaft jig plate. must be a way to make a larger plate to incorporate one plate with holes for both type transmissions. I understand using the 4-spd to get the jig lined up and the bell housing bolts drilled. using my trans doing this same swap will be a real challange to get it right.
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 01-17-2010
The pins on yours are the same direction as the ones appear to be in this diagram, but the levers are different lengths, especially the innermost lever.
You may be right, I think that it may be some kind of swap in the past, especially with that union, its hard to tell. Its gonna be difficult to get that lined up perfectly so the input shaft is right in the center, but it occurs to me that since the pilot bearings are the same, you may be able to just hold that tranny up against an engine without a clutch or flex plate, slide the input shaft into the pilot bearing, and see how the bolt holes line up in order to make a jig without using the input shaft cover plate.
Ive been thinking about your suggestion to use the 240 shift linkage on the 717.411, and I think it can totally be done. The case is slightly longer, but as discovered before, the shift levers for 1-2 and 3-4 are the same position and distance from the rear bolt pattern on both the 4 and 5-speeds. The big difference is the distance of the R (240) and R-5 (190) levers are in the other direction from the same reference surface.
I make it about 1 1/8th inches on the 4-speed, and 1 6/8ths inches on the 5-speed. If the 240 R linkage rod is shortened by 5/8ths and the other two levers left alone, it should work just fine for the R-5 application on the 5-speed.
Then after that change, all three levers would have to be shortened the same and tweaked for final installation into a 123, just like a normal 4-speed swap.
a couple pics-
distance on the 5-speed R-5 lever hole-
distance on the 4-speed R lever hole-
Compared-
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 01-18-2010
Last night I was Googling for some info on the Getrag 5-spd trans. I came across a web site in the UK.
http://mercedes-190.co.uk/forums/5951
some of them are using brass bushings on the shift linkage to tighten up the shifts, in stead of using the rubber/nylon.
http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/217321/1/
there were 2 thread on shortening the shift throw
http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/6576914/1/
http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/222107/1/
I haven`t seen one yet, but there is a 6 spd Getrag, with 5th 1:1 and 6th OD. they come in the SLK 230 W203, not sure is that model come over to this side of the pond.
http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/6568052/1/
I also e-mailed a guy at Getrag, to see if a service manual is available for these Getrag transmissions. only thing is the Haynes, and it doesn`t cover the 717.404. we`ll see if the guy comes through with anything.
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - CID Vicious - 01-18-2010
Man, the last half dozen or so posts should be published as 'Why the Auto Industry Stopped Using Lever Shift Linkages'. That's just insane, what, four different shifter types for very similar chassis and transmissions? Maybe it's just the Benz guys being overengineering Germans.
And hey, score one for Haynes. Maybe they don't suck that bad, after all!
That W58 is looking better all the time
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 01-18-2010
Your transmission looks exactly like this diagram off the UK site, and the levers look in the right direction, I wonder-
That looks like some crazy pattern, would be a blast to get used to
These UK guys have some great ideas, I should never have followed the link! brass bushings, shorter shifts, 6-speed! I started another thread on that after reading through.
Cid, thats 4 SO FAR, I bet there are double digit types of shift patterns for these applications over what we've already discussed!
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - CID Vicious - 01-18-2010
Yeah, man, suddenly keeping my 240D as a commuter and getting a 400E for stupidity is looking reeeeaaaalll good!
I admire that you're sticking to it, diagrams like that make me want to run away screaming...reminds me of when that old lifer at Motor Trend was talking about the 85 parts in his XKE's throttle linkage.
I'm going to take a picture of the shifter on the W58 so you guys will hate me
.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 01-20-2010
Here is the reply from Getrag about a manual transmission manual,
Hello Mr. xxxx
thank you for sending the e-mail and the interest in information of the GETRAG transmission.
Unfortunately we have to inform you, that this Transmissionwill only be serviced by Mercedes Benz. With this situation also the service manuals are made directly by Daimler AG and we do not have service parts in our warehouse for this program and we are also not able to support you here in getting the service manual via GETRAG.
BUT:
What I know is the so called "Mercedes Benz Gebrauchtteile Center" that is selling used parts for all Mercedes programs.
Maybe they can help you, If it is not possible for you to get the requested parts or information from a Mercedes dealer.
For details, please visit their homepage: http://www.mbgtc.de/index.php?id=388&L=1
I hope this information helps you to solve the service (part) problem of your car.
Mit freundlichem Gruß - Best regards
Gernot Rapp
Key Account Sales
GETRAG
Getriebe- und Zahnradfabrik
Hermann Hagenmeyer GmbH & Cie KG
GETRAG InnovationsCenter
Hermann-Hagenmeyer-Straße
D- 74199 Untergruppenbach
Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Gernot Rapp
VK2 - Customerteam 2
Fon +49 (0)7131.644 -4422
Fax +49 (0)7131.644 -4414
E-mail Gernot.Rapp@getrag.de
Member of the GETRAG Corporate Group
www.getrag.de
Disclaimer: This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. If you are not the intended recipient
or a representative thereof, be advised that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is strictly prohibited.
If you have received this email in error please notify the sender. G. Rapp
________________________________
Von: Charlie xxxx [mailto: xxxxxxxxx
Gesendet: Montag, 18. Januar 2010 06:36
An: Krauss, Erich
Betreff: service manuals
Hello,
I have a Getrag model 717.404 5 speed manual transmission. I would like to know if there are any service manuals for the manual transmissions.
I have the after market manual by Haynes, for the Mercedes-Benz 190, 1984 thru 1988. the 2 transmissions listed are the 717.412 and the 717.410.
my transmission 717.404 has a different configuration and dissambly.
Do you have a service manual I could purchase, or know where I may purchase one?
there are many on the automatic`s, just not much for the manual gear boxes.
Thank You,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GETRAG Getriebe- und Zahnradfabrik Hermann Hagenmeyer GmbH & Cie KG •
GETRAG InnovationsCenter • Hermann-Hagenmeyer-Strasse • 74199 Untergruppenbach • Deutschland •
Kommanditgesellschaft mit Sitz in Untergruppenbach • Amtsgericht Stuttgart HRA 104271 •
Persoenlich haftende Gesellschafterin: GETRAG CH Beteiligungsgesellschaft mbH mit Sitz in Chur • Handelsregister Graubuenden •
Firmennr. CH-350.4.000.888-0 • Geschaeftsfuehrer: Dr. Robert Schwarz, Dr. Robert Martin Schwarz
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 01-20-2010
Well, thats annoying. You should have told him you were related to Graf Von Zeppelin. At least he was prompt in his response to you.
Id email the part number off to the classic center and see if you can even get a rebuild kit, then if that can be had, take a peek inside.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 01-20-2010
Yeah I should have said I was Harry Von Zipper
I stumbled across a G-Wagon site, and maybe found some manuals that might be what we are looking for, well maybe for mine
.this 4th transmission down sure looks like mine by the drawing. maybe the last 3 numbers designates the gear ratio?
http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/transmissions/getriebe.html
the GL 275 717.42 5 speed looks close. and they have a CD for $54
http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/trans.html
this link is a compliation of engine and trans info etc. covers the OM617.95 and a few others
http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/collult460.html
maybe some of this is helpful.
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - DeliveryValve - 01-20-2010
(01-20-2010, 09:29 PM)charmalu ....
I stumbled across a G-Wagon site, and maybe found some manuals that might be what we are looking for, well maybe for mine
this 4th transmission down sure looks like mine by the drawing. maybe the last 3 numbers designates the gear ratio?
http://www.4x4abc.com/G-Class/transmissions/getriebe.html
the GL 275 717.42 5 speed looks close. and they have a CD for $54
....
Here is a pic for ya Charlie.. for comparison...
.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 01-21-2010
Thank you Richard,
The drawing doesn`t have the levers attached, but looks so close to being the same set up. The dissasembly of the 717.404 and the 717.411 are not the same so I figure can`t hurt to have too many manuals on these things, since there doesn`t seem to much info available.
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - SurfRodder - 01-21-2010
I would definitely try to see if the 4 speed shifter works with the 5 speed. The clearances are pretty close with the 4 speed, but with a little creativity you should be able to get it to work with the 5 speed. On the 4 speed, the middle lever (IIRC) goes to the front arm on the tranny, the driver's side one goes to the middle arm and the smaller lever goes to the rear arm. When you move the shifter to each position, you can see what the linkage will do. IIRC on the 4 speed the gears 1 & 2 are on the front lever, 3 & 4 are on the middle (might have that backwards tho) and reverse is on the rear. For the 5 speed gear 5 is likely on the reverse lever (shaft) like most other 5 speeds of the era.
four speed shift pattern:
R 1 3
|_ | |
....2-4
(must pull up on shifter to get reverse, i.e. it is 'gated')
Since you dont know what the shift patterns are, I'd try to put the shifter in different positions and see what the levers do. On the trans, you can spin the input shaft and move a lever to see what speeds are on what arms on the tranny (and also determie if 5th truly shares an arm with reverse) by watching and comparing what the output shaft does... a paper plate with a few degree marks will assist you in figuring out what gears you are in, and if you are accurate with that you can get a pretty good estimate of your ratios as well.
with that knowledge, it'll be pretty easy to make something work. I had to do this process for my 4 speed swap as the donor vehicle I got my trans from was missing the linkages and I had to get some from another source with no pics/drawings/etc...
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 01-25-2010
So this morning I was in a yard looking for some throttle linkages off of an early SD and I notice what looks like a 190E in the brush at the bottom of a short ravine. From what I could tell, it had a stick handle, so I got the guy to tip it on its side so we could get a look at what might be down there buried in the icy muddy water.
Turns out it had a complete 717.412 5-speed! The gearbox is frozen, so its probably full of rust from the water down there, but I grabbed everything, including the linkage bars. The only thing I was unable to grab was the flywheel, which needed a torch to remove. may be promising from the condition of the input shaft, which does not seem that rusty, so ill have to take a peek inside. Ill shelve this little project for later.
Here are a few pics. Im expecting the three linkage bars off of a 240 sometime this week from the classic center, so we should be able to get a comparison of how they look and function.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 01-28-2010
Got my flywheel today. As usual, there is shipping damage, and I have to verify that this thing is still true. -sigh-
about 14 teeth on the starter ring are also damaged, but it can be cleaned up with a dremel.
Also received most of the clutch hydraulic system from the classic center, with the exception of the shift linkage bars, a piece of the line, and the pedals. Should have everything in a couple of days hopefully.
I took the housing back to a machine shop because I decided I was unhappy with the sliding tolerance (or lack therof) on the input and counter bores, and Im having them lightly chase it so I can adjust the bearings on the front of the case.
In the meantime while Im waiting for these things, since I was lucky enough to come across the additional 5-speed and shifter, I am going to modify the original shifter to make it a short shift.
Good news is that the car is also finally here! I am working on getting that running reliably also, but all the parts are starting to collect to actual perform the installation.
Here are a few pics of the flywheel, sourced out of WI and the standard Junkyard protective packing job.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 02-09-2010
major setback!
After weeks of waiting, Tom at the classic center has informed me that he can't source the 240 linkage bars since they are now out of stock. Ill have to find them in a yard or just make em.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 02-10-2010
Housing is back, ground out most of the interior weld on the corner, and I ended up having the bell pattern flycut to match the rear surface.
Earlier I had been under the impression that it was out between 10 and 15 thousandths, when I dropped it back off to have the bores recut at another machinist, I had him check the level on the bell as a second opinion. Turned out it was out almost 100 thousandths on one side which I also saw!
Its been cut down and now that surface is under 5 thousandths off from the other two stock surfaces, about the same tolerance that those stock surfaces have built in from MB. Feel much better that I did this, especially since it was so off.
A few pics-
the corner ground out, lots of sanding left to do-
the fly cut on the bell pattern-
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 03-01-2010
Havent forgotten about this project. Have been navigating the shift linkage bar waiting process. Ive got the three from the other tranny, and I used that VIN to source three duplicates from the classic center, of which 2 have actually made it to CA from germany so far. I assume the last one is being hand made in some german workshop but Im hopeful that it does exist after the 240 bar double fake.
Still missing the one bar, which should be on its way, and the second part of the clutch hydraulic line, which Tom Hanson tells me is now a duplicate for some part of the SLS on an SD apparently.
Worst case it can be made easily from some brake line, but he will send me this piece that is supposed to be the replacement, evidently you have to cut it and flare it to fit since the OEM part is no longer something that can be bought.
As soon as I know that the third bar actually exists, I will use the ones I have to modify.
Lots of other work on the intended wagon platform has been taking place, and I should have the automatic tranny down this weekend. manual is ready for installation, pedals are in (thanks Charmalu) new master and slave have arrived and most every other part of the system.
I also turned it into a short shift, pics to come of that. I figure what the hell. Took the shifter apart inside a paper bag with a light and extended all bars by 3/4s of an inch.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 03-03-2010
look what came in the mail today!
almost too nice to installRE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 03-04-2010
These are for the 5 spd, or 4 spd? strange why the one has a different end. sort of like the rods from my 5 spd.
almost look like stainless steel.
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 03-04-2010
Those are the 5 speed rods.
4-speed rods turned out to be N/A after waiting forever to hear from germany. Could be the specific VIN I was using to try and order them though. Would not surprise me if that were the case.
These three rods are ordered from the VIN I ripped out of the 190E 5-speed that was in the gully. (that was good luck finding that, otherwise I would be making my manual linkage out of 3 auto tranny linkage bars)
The flat space on the bar must be to limit twist and loss of travel on the shortest linkage bar. The crafty germans cut down on some material on these new bars and did not put the nice round feature the old ones have.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - winmutt - 03-05-2010
How much $ if you don't mind me asking. They are very pretty, much like my FW was. So shiny!
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 03-05-2010
They are not cheap, although Im still trying to determine exactly what these cost.
I know what the 240 bars were, like 40-60 bucks a piece. My card was put on file over at the classic center, and things just sort of arrive after being charged and shipped without warning, so Im hoping that these are around the same price as the 240 bars. These were being researched for price, but there have been several communication problems on charging and shipping. I guess I can't really complain that they are too efficient, having the stuff arrive without warning is way better than the order being forgotten entirely. They have been more than patient with my requests as well, I must admit. I would find me annoying.
Ill let you know when I either hear back, or get my credit card statement.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 04-24-2010
Ok, some time has passed, had some major trouble with originally intended recipient car, so I ended up purchasing another real POS to test this.
This new car is an 80 240, is complete and runs well with the exception of horrific rust, but Im pretty much on top of that issue.
heres a pic of the car-
The car was originally an automatic, which I have ripped out with great pleasure and installed the 5-speed. I used all 123 chassis new clutch stuff, EXCEPT for the fork behind the release bearing. That one I kept from the original 190, since its a hair longer.
Here are a few pics showing a 190 release bearing vs the 240 release bearing which is thicker. We will see if there are any issues with these two different chassis parts inside the bell. Other than that, the clutch and all that is 240 sachs brand.
the release bearings (crusty one is 190E)-
The 190 fork and 240 release bearing-
The tranny mounted right up without issue. i discovered that I had lost my clutch alignment tool, but a 10mm craftsman deepwell taped to a 15mm short 12 point worked perfectly as a crude tool. (The 10mm was EXACTLY the inner diameter of the pilot bearing, it was quite surprising).
There was one bolt that did not have a hole that lined up for some reason, that was right under the oil filter housing. All other bolts lined up, and I was able to use all the 240 auto hardware on the 5-speed without incident.
Tomorrow I will get the linkage and mount modified. The forward shaft of the auto 240 will have to be lengthened about 5 inches. I also have a manual 240 shaft in the garage which I estimate would have to be SHORTENED about 1 inch to 1.5 inches.
The shaft goes out on monday to be done, don't hold me to these numbers till its back and in! Im mailing it to a trusted driveshaft shop which did my 300D 4-speed shaft for about 120 bucks. They were very fast then, so I hope to have it back in about 1.5 weeks
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 04-25-2010
I'm jealous my 1980240d turbo 4sdp would rock with another gear! It red lines at 85 I cruise at 75-80mph and my mpg go straight down the toilet it's in its sweet spot between 55-65mph
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 04-25-2010
don't be jealous until it works
I am now regretting not repairing that second little ear that was broken off on the 5-speed housing, as the 240 exhaust bracket would have fit perfectly onto it. The 300 turbo uses a different mounting bracket off the bell housing, so It just never connected that there as a further purpose for these ears. Oh well, ill rig something up so it works.
Also, I still have to make a short piece of line since the second half of the clutch line is N/A from the classic center.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 04-25-2010
Good news on the shifter, simple installation-
Shifter is in, bolt holes on the driver side line up, I need the gasket from the 5-speed shifter for the body, since the 123 body gasket does not work and it will definitely leak. With the gasket made for this shifter though, it should work.
The hole in the body does not need to be modified, the only things that need to be done are two holes drilled and tapped, and a little piece of the the insulation cut away.
Still have to find out what the 201 chassis does for the reverse lights, there is a little clip thing on the bottom which is probably where the switch mounts.
some pics-
The hole as seen with the automatic stuff gone-
holes drilled, ready to be tapped-
insulation removed, lower right is the only place it interferes. This would probably be a little different car to car-
fully bolted down. The stock bolts for the automatic worked fine to bolt this shifter down-
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 04-25-2010
Got rained out today!
did manage to get the trans cross member mount modified though, and it looks like the shift linkage bars will have to be lengthened about 1 and 3/4 inches.
Some pics of the trans cross member modification. The bolt hole for the 5-speed comes down right on the forward edge of the 240 auto cross member, and instead of messing with the 4 holes on the sides, I decided I would cut apart my 300TD auto mount and make the 240D cross member wider so that the final cross member still had the stock ribbing and bolting pattern.
I cut kind of a diamond pattern out of the 300 mount, and similar out of the 240 mount. Two pieces at first-
Some shaping of the panel had to take place-
Heres the modified mount compared to a stock auto 240 mount-
Rubbercoating applied-
Next was deciding on what rubber mount to use. Ive got quite a selection of older ones to try. Its hard to tell cause I got these off of all old cars, so who knows what someone was using, but the top left is the 190E 5-speed mount, top right is the 300TD auto mount (identical), bottom left is the 240D auto mount, and bottom right is the 240D 4-speed mount.
The most robust of all of them is the 4-speed mount. I took the secondary bracket that was on the 240 auto, and installed it on the 240 manual mount. This will be the interim rubber mount until an ordered one arrives.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 04-25-2010
cool stuff thanks for the pics and right up on all of this!
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - winmutt - 04-28-2010
(04-25-2010, 05:56 PM)dropnosky The most robust of all of them is the 4-speed mount. I took the secondary bracket that was on the 240 auto, and installed it on the 240 manual mount. This will be the interim rubber mount until an ordered one arrives.
Interesting... The 240d 4 speed manual mount with the bracket was the strongest? My 300D euro had the heavy duty auto (like the top 2) and that is what I have been using. It is ~2?cm wider than the 240d. I did shove the rubber remanents of the old inbetween that gap at the bottom and last time I checked it was still there.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 04-28-2010
(04-28-2010, 09:40 AM)winmutt(04-25-2010, 05:56 PM)dropnosky The most robust of all of them is the 4-speed mount. I took the secondary bracket that was on the 240 auto, and installed it on the 240 manual mount. This will be the interim rubber mount until an ordered one arrives.
Interesting... The 240d 4 speed manual mount with the bracket was the strongest? My 300D euro had the heavy duty auto (like the top 2) and that is what I have been using. It is ~2?cm wider than the 240d. I did shove the rubber remanents of the old inbetween that gap at the bottom and last time I checked it was still there.
Of the 4 I had. The one that had the next most rubber was the 240 auto. Are they using a different rubber compound maybe?
Maybe I should rephrase that and state that the one that LOOKS the strongest and stiffest is the 240 4-speed. It had a round sleeve in the center surrounded by rubber instead of the oval sleeve that the auto one had. The other two did not have any of this central support stuff, and also had no way to bolt this extra little bracket which I assumed stiffened it up?
Maybe the 240 type is just outdated and uses old materials and the metal bracket to match the better rubber in the newer mounts off the 300TD and 190E. At any rate, I ordered the mount that is used on the 84 190E and we'll see if its the same as the one I pulled out of a yard.
Probably any of these will work forever after all this
I mailed off the driveshaft on monday, and since the U-joint has a bunch of flat spots, Im gonna see if they can replace it with one thats greasable. That should arrive at the shaft shop later this week I think
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - winmutt - 04-29-2010
The more movement the tail of the trans has the more jerking you'll get when shifting.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-02-2010
got the 190E mount, different from the other 4, looks pretty good. Pics later on tonight.
Also got the shifter handle, some stuff for the radiator support issue on the 240 (unrelated to this project, but very important), and I found a nice piece of brake line at NAPA for 6 bucks that should work great for the NLA clutch line.
30 inches 6mm line with the correct fittings. Only problem is that its a bubble flare instead of standard flare. Will have to be re-flared before it can go in. Wasted a lot of time trying to find an auto shop that actually had a flaring tool down here. WTF? most of these guys had no idea what I was talking about. Who is training these boneheads? Have to take it back with me upstate and do it there.
Drive shaft looks like it will be done monday for around 200 bucks. With that time frame I should have it (hopefully) by the end of the week with shipping.
Meanwhile the 240 POS edition will get some oil cooler lines, and the fender fitted today.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 05-02-2010
I'm curious what mileage it will get on the highway at 75mph my MPGs drop right off the engine is almost over reving
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-17-2010
driveshaft is FINALLY done and back in my hands!
I sent off the 240 shaft, and the shaft guy had a 300D end of a front shaft in his shop, so he swapped the ends in order to avoid having to make any kind of complex taper and keep the cost down. In the end with new carrier bearing, boot, mount, U-joint and balance and lengthening, came to about 210 bucks.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 05-17-2010
Sweet how long till the 1st road test?
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-17-2010
Im supposed to be 300 miles upstate by 2pm tomorrow until friday.
It looks like it will be next weekend before I can finish, although id sure love to drive this 240 up instead of my triton V8 powered ford van, which is killing me on fuel. If only the shaft had arrived on friday instead of monday. oh well. Good news is that my schedule calls for 600-700 miles a week driving for the next couple months, so this sucker will be tested well.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - hey_allen - 05-17-2010
Is there any chance that you are willing to share the name and contact info of the shop that did the driveline work for you?
All of the semi local shops that I have contacted are either unable, too scared, or just outrageously priced on doing work on MB drivelines. I am in the market to do a 4 speed swap, but not likely to happen when the one willing shop was estimating at near $600!
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-18-2010
I used a branch of Powertrain industries. Just looking at the bill, if I had not replaced the U-joint, it would have been about 150 bucks to modify the shaft, install the stuff I provided, and balance.
Also, replacing the U-joint also extended the time they worked on it, because they had to outsource and send it off to another shop for the correct staking tool or whatnot. Added about a week to the job. I think the place is nation wide, but I used the same branch I used before.
My experience has been that its a lot cheaper to modify a 300D shaft over a 240 shaft because of the taper in the front shaft that the 240 has. I guess it depends on the shop, but they were telling me that this way they don't have to weld back in the factory reduction in diameter, or make something similar. They can just do a straight tube. I lucked out that he happened to have some 300D parts kicking around, or the price may have been much higher
PM sent with their info
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - ForcedInduction - 05-18-2010
(05-18-2010, 07:42 AM)dropnosky but they were telling me that this way they don't have to weld back in the factory reduction in diameter, or make something similar. They can just do a straight tube.
Why go through all that? All they need to do is cut a section out, press in a connecting tube, weld the sections together and balance.
Factory 300D 4-m up top and modified 240D shaft bottom.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-18-2010
(05-18-2010, 12:44 PM)ForcedInduction(05-18-2010, 07:42 AM)dropnosky but they were telling me that this way they don't have to weld back in the factory reduction in diameter, or make something similar. They can just do a straight tube.
Why go through all that? All they need to do is cut a section out, press in a connecting tube, weld the sections together and balance.
Factory 300D 4-m up top and modified 240D shaft bottom.
Good point. I did not ask and they did not tell. They did not mention that path, but it may have been that they had the other flange right there and suddenly had an application for it.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-21-2010
Got back today, driveshaft, linkage, and trans mount installed.
First off, lengthening the auto shaft 5 inches is a little too long. I had to cut off 1/2 inch of the end nub to get it past the flex discs. Perfect would be 4.5 inches instead of 5.
Heres a pic of the 5-speed shaft next to a 240 4-speed shaft-
Installing the linkage, with the 616, there is tons and tons of room, the linkage bars had no interference issues with eachother. I did have a problem with the flattened wide short linkage bar for 5th/reverse. The end part for the clip did not come through the rubber grommet on the transmission side, and i had to sand down the grommet quite a bit to get the clip on-
welding in 1.75 inch spacers (made from the auto linkage) that dimension worked out just right, neutral position looks good-
Couple pics of how they line up underneath-
Couple pics of the custom trans mount, which worked out great-
The flex discs installed-
Had to double washer the closer bolts on the trans side flex disc to keep them from hitting the case. Otherwise went together normally. Rear was no problem except for having to nip the driveshaft and rusty hardware
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-22-2010
ive got to bleed, and bypass not in park safety, then its time for a test drive! Have an obligation for the middle of the afternoon, but I should be ready to take it for a spin afterwards
a few pics-
new clutch system-
bent OEM line inside-
NAPA line was a bit too long. Made up for that with some creative routing underneath-
Installed the OEM plastic nipple and line to the reservoir. I can see why they used these plastic lines from the factory, just spray some lubricant, and push it on and it pops into place. We will see how long it lasts, they told me there were no other parts to it, but I feel like it should have a couple of C clips at either end. It sort of looks like it
Had an issue with the speedometer cable! The 5-speed takes a square peg cable, and the 1980 240 has a flat rectangular peg!
I ground it down and filed it to fit, and it worked to go in. I will revisit this after the test drive to see if I need to replace this cable or not.
The two compared-
tranny side-
car side-
ground ready for filing final fit-