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+--- Thread: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front (/showthread.php?tid=2169)
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - dieselboy - 02-05-2011
Tell you guys what. I have a dyno date in march. I'll take my spares and mod them ad see if I can do a before and after without touching the pump.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ForcedInduction - 02-05-2011
(02-05-2011, 05:49 PM)Volker407 So you say prechamber atomization is better altough common rail has higher injection pressure (3-4 times higher than our OM61Xs got) and can superheat through pre-injectionsYes. IDI injects and vaporizes all the fuel at the same time. Common rail still has separate injections which means the fuel still has less time "in heat".
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - jeemu - 02-05-2011
Om616. If you need some information, shoot at pm.
Big holes= big power
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - led-panzer - 02-05-2011
I don't know what you think being a martyr is going to solve. It would seem jeemu could solve this whole argument by posting a dyno before and a dyno after the mods.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-06-2011
(02-05-2011, 11:18 AM)OM616 Implying that the members that posted information that you disagree with are liars is nothing but confrontational. If we can not trust what a member says, then what is the point. I mean heck, anyone that has any skill with a graphics program can create a dyno sheet that supports anything.
I say enough. Statements that contradict solely for the sake of contradiction are aggressive, and deter members from posting. Unless you have something relevant to "CONTRIBUTE" to a thread, don't.
While this is very true, I recommend everyone stay on topic here.
What I think would prove to be beneficial here is some simple testing. Why doesn't someone rig up a testing station? Lets stop talking theoretical and half assed tests, lets start talking scientific experimentation. I would think a pop tester rigged with some prechambers that are mounted into a jar that is similar in size to that of a piston would provide some interesting results. Video record the differences.
This would be a real contribution that would far surpass anything that has been contributed in this thread so far. Jeemu has more power without fully knowing whats going on. I have a half cocked theory that more holes would be better. Forced thinks its a bad idea period.
Less talk more walk here people. The point of this board is to do more than the others.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - DieselSchlepper - 02-06-2011
Joking, but I wonder sometimes if the "Flame Front" refers to the "flaming" going on in this thread?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - willbhere4u - 02-06-2011
I would Rig up the injector, pop tester, prechamber, and a glow plug get the plug hot and inject the fuel use a slow motion camera and see if there is any noticeable difference with the burn time between the two prechamber? just stand back lol
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - tomnik - 02-06-2011
without an air temperature of ?? > 200-400deg C ?? in the jar you won't see fire...
Tom
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - erling66 - 02-06-2011
Not trying to be "negative", bu I can't see how this test will provide any useful information. You will need to create the same conditions you have during compression and combustion. The only way to do that(for people with normal equipment) is to use an engine in a car. If you don't have access to a dyno, you can do a road test.
I normally use the same uphill, try to test during same temperature and humidity. and for example use third gear and time acceleration from 2000-5000rpm with WOT. Not perfect but it will tell you if the engine has more power.
I hope someone will do that(I can't, we have ice on the roads now) and tell us about it. We will take your word for it(well most of us
) when you tell us if it helped or not
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-06-2011
(02-06-2011, 03:05 PM)erling66 Not trying to be "negative", bu I can't see how this test will provide any useful information.If you were testing for flame front yes. I think just seeing how the fuel mists and is dispersed would be very interesting. I believe that FI is right about Jeemu's bigger holes, that Jeemu is wasting fuel as it is being sprayed on the piston and walls and not misting in the middle. There is no doubt in my mind he is seeing more power from more fuel but I think more holes are the solution not bigger ones.
Somewhere I read a detailed thread/doc on the injectors, the angle of injection, the rotation of the pintles etc and the specific reasons they were changed. One of the items the thread/doc impressed was that fuel on the cylinder walls and piston head is essentially wasted. Even without firing the fuel in my suggested test you should be able to clearly see the difference. A simple example of my idea is the garden hose sprayer. One jet, lots of pressure. 6 jets, a shower. 32 jets, a fine mist. We definetely want a fine mist.
An additional problem to my idea is the physical integrity of the pc itself, which is where Jeemu's solution *might* be the only correct one.
If I had a pop tester this video would already be shot
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ForcedInduction - 02-07-2011
(02-06-2011, 09:12 AM)winmutt What I think would prove to be beneficial here is some simple testing. Why doesn't someone rig up a testing station? Lets stop talking theoretical and half assed tests, lets start talking scientific experimentation. I would think a pop tester rigged with some prechambers that are mounted into a jar that is similar in size to that of a piston would provide some interesting results. Video record the differences.That wouldn't show anything useful since there is no combustion, or even airflow. You would also have to pump 37 stokes/second to simulate 4500rpm.
(02-06-2011, 10:15 AM)DieselSchlepper Joking, but I wonder sometimes if the "Flame" Front refers to the "flaming" going on in this thread?Yeah. I thought that was pretty obvious given the person who typed it.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - jonbobshinigin - 02-07-2011
(02-05-2011, 06:29 PM)dieselboy Tell you guys what. I have a dyno date in march. I'll take my spares and mod them ad see if I can do a before and after without touching the pump.
This sounds good :-) At least seems to be the most conclusive thing thusfar!
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - casioqv - 02-07-2011
(02-05-2011, 06:29 PM)dieselboy I have a dyno date in march.
Let's hope that dyno has some way of measuring diesel engine rpm... if so I might do my D24T just for fun.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - 300D50 - 02-07-2011
It better, most dyno's can read a tach amp signal...
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - dieselboy - 02-07-2011
Actually I have 2 dyno dates in march. I hope my 10mm elements show up before the 2nd one.
Does anyone have the tool to remove the precup or has anyone made a tool? It doesn't look to hard to make. But if I had a pic it would make making it alot eaiser.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - casioqv - 02-07-2011
(02-07-2011, 02:50 PM)dieselboy Does anyone have the tool to remove the precup or has anyone made a tool?
You can rent it on PeachParts, or buy it from MercedesSource. You need a slide-hammer with a special attachment to pull the pre-chamber, and a separate tool to remove and re-torque the locking collar that holds it in. Maybe you can copy the design from the MercedesSource photos?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-07-2011
(02-07-2011, 02:50 PM)dieselboy Actually I have 2 dyno dates in march. I hope my 10mm elements show up before the 2nd one.
Does anyone have the tool to remove the precup or has anyone made a tool? It doesn't look to hard to make. But if I had a pic it would make making it alot eaiser.
I have the shimano crank bolt and the lock ring tool. Security deposit + shipping + 6 pack.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - casioqv - 02-07-2011
(02-07-2011, 02:59 PM)winmutt I have the shimano crank bolt
The pre-chamber puller is the same threads as a bicycle crank puller?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - 300D50 - 02-07-2011
(02-07-2011, 02:50 PM)dieselboy Actually I have 2 dyno dates in march. I hope my 10mm elements show up before the 2nd one.
When didya order em? how much?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-07-2011
(02-07-2011, 03:02 PM)casioqv(02-07-2011, 02:59 PM)winmutt I have the shimano crank bolt
The pre-chamber puller is the same threads as a bicycle crank puller?
22m * 1. Yes. $9 at any bicycle shop.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Captain America - 02-07-2011
(02-07-2011, 12:28 PM)casioqv(02-05-2011, 06:29 PM)dieselboy I have a dyno date in march.
Let's hope that dyno has some way of measuring diesel engine rpm... if so I might do my D24T just for fun.
WOT Performance in riverside can do diesels all day
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - dieselboy - 02-07-2011
I'm going to a socaps meet at Fontana sunrise ford on Sunday the 8th. Since the bronco transmission is in 2 pieces im taking the merc.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ForcedInduction - 02-07-2011
Pulling the prechamber is the easiest part, its removing and torquing the collars without fucking up the slots thats difficult.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MTUPower - 02-07-2011
(02-05-2011, 07:31 PM)jeemu Om616. If you need some information, shoot at pm.PM box is full... waiting to send one.
Big holes= big power
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Captain America - 02-08-2011
I think Kent's tools are pretty cool..
http://www.mercedessource.com/node/8478
http://www.mercedessource.com/node/8479
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ForcedInduction - 02-08-2011
(02-08-2011, 01:17 AM)Captain America I think Kent's tools are pretty cool.
Just the typical rip-off price for Mercedes$ource.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - DeliveryValve - 02-08-2011
diesel911 over at peachparts makes a good tool. I have an early variation of his tool but similar to the current version.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=282469
.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-08-2011
(02-07-2011, 03:56 PM)ForcedInduction Pulling the prechamber is the easiest part, its removing and torquing the collars without fucking up the slots thats difficult.
With the right tool its a cinch. I ruined three sockets making a home made tool. The secret is the angle of the dog ears and the ability to lock them in.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Motorhead - 02-10-2011
Man this is a great site, I remember about a year ago there was some heated discussion about pc's but not like this, imho I think there can be some tunning advantages screwing around with the pc and I agree the best way to find clues to this question is on the dyno.
One thing I have access to is both chassis & engine dynos so there may be some testing on hot bulb changes going on in the I.E. for the SoCal crew, keep this thread going!
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - dieselboy - 02-10-2011
Where we talking? I wanted to compare stock to modified with my stock injection pump and then stock vs modified with my 10mm pump.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - BRABUS - 02-10-2011
Hi
Anyone know what threads on the pre-chamber puller ?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-10-2011
22mm x 1. You want to use the shimano crank puller, available at your local bike store. Walmart didnt carry it last time I checked.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Captain America - 02-10-2011
(02-10-2011, 01:42 AM)dieselboy Where we talking? I wanted to compare stock to modified with my stock injection pump and then stock vs modified with my 10mm pump.
Yeah Where!?!
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - BRABUS - 02-10-2011
(02-10-2011, 10:08 AM)winmutt 22mm x 1. You want to use the shimano crank puller, available at your local bike store. Walmart didnt carry it last time I checked.like this?
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-Shimano-BIKE-TL-FC10-CRANK-PULLER-TOOL-/350434655738?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5197887dfa
Thanks !
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-10-2011
Looks about right.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - gen3performance - 02-11-2011
I'm as curious about this topic as everyone else here and would like to see some results.
I'll donate a set of five pre-cups from a 1981 SD to whoevers going to the dyno. Whoever wants them, just PM me.
It would be nice to see the graphs from a variety of different sized precups and just how the hp/torque curves increase or decrease or move around.
Now that I think about it, I have two sets of five I'll donate.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - dieselboy - 02-11-2011
I'm good I have 3 spare sets and 1 set of 4 that the 5th one broke off and fell into the cylinder.
If any one else in the SoCal area would like to dyno on march 6th pm me I'll give you the info.
It's 50$ for a run. Last time 1 run = 3 pulls.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Captain America - 02-11-2011
I've got two spare sets that still need to be pulled ...
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - 85-300Dt - 02-11-2011
pulling 'em is one thing, as i understand refitting is a precision deal ..from peach
Quote:TimFreeh
10-01-2003, 10:29 AM
One other measurement that is critical is the dimension that the prechamber tip protrudes out from the head.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ForcedInduction - 02-12-2011
(02-11-2011, 09:16 PM)85-300Dt pulling 'em is one thing, as i understand refitting is a precision deal ..from peach
Not at all. The only thing you need to consider is if the head has been machined. If it has, you use a thicker seal ring.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - dieselboy - 02-12-2011
Nope they are key'd and bottom out.
They can only go in one way.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - tomnik - 02-13-2011
there are different shims to adapt the hight position for different head thickness (dressed to seize after repair).
Tom
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Captain America - 02-22-2011
Looks like I have all three? styles of pre chamber now... '81, '82, '85 in my hands
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - dieselboy - 02-22-2011
Yeah I was looking at the ones I pulled they have 3 different sized holes I needto buy some drill bits.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-23-2011
(02-22-2011, 03:50 PM)Captain America Looks like I have all three? styles of pre chamber now... '81, '82, '85 in my hands
Clean them up and lets see some pics for starters!
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - yankneck696 - 02-23-2011
I am looking forward to real results on this. I think there is room for improvement in them.
Ed
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Captain America - 02-24-2011
(02-23-2011, 05:33 PM)winmutt(02-22-2011, 03:50 PM)Captain America Looks like I have all three? styles of pre chamber now... '81, '82, '85 in my hands
Clean them up and lets see some pics for starters!
I still need to get the tools to pull them. The '82 and '85 don't run. Im driving the '81 currently. I will pull all three, compare and come back with pics
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-24-2011
You can get the ring collar tool at pelicanparts the cheapest. I have one you can borrow for shipping costs both ways. I also have a 22mmx1 ring you can borrow. The ring, a washer, bolt and a slide hammer will pull em out. You will need replacement shims but they are cheap.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Captain America - 02-24-2011
Thanks for the offer.
I'm definitely gonna buy the tools
You have a link to pelicanparts? it's not working for me...
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-28-2011
http://www.pelicanparts.com/euro/catalog/shopcart/TOOL/POR_TOOL_MERCED_pg10.htm
If you want you can buy mine. I sincerely doubt I will be using it anytime in the future.