+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP (/showthread.php?tid=2216)
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - sassparilla_kid - 11-22-2012
That sounds a little complex for my taste, but I like things as simple as I can get them lol
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - DirtDiesel - 11-22-2012
i like the idea of have full fuel until max rpm!!!
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 11-23-2012
(11-22-2012, 09:58 PM)sassparilla_kid That sounds a little complex for my taste, but I like things as simple as I can get them lol
It could be done with a RPM activated switch from Summit and a vacuum control valve as well. When the RPM is reached, the vacuum valve puts vacuum to the shut off actuator and that pulls the fuel back.
I have to use the ignition module to make the tack work on my 190e / 616 turbo car, so the signal is there to operate a RPM switch.
I can definitely feel when the Max speed governor is in action, it bugs me...lol
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - 300SD81 - 11-23-2012
If you get a vacuum proportioning valve, you could probably use the stock valve to cut off just enough fuel so that the engine stays exactly at max rpm.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - ronnie - 11-23-2012
I have to wonder if there really is a need for rev limiting? at least for non racing uses.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - raysorenson - 11-24-2012
(11-22-2012, 08:33 PM)OM616 I am going to eliminate the max speed governor on my personal pump, and I got to thinking that if I got rid of the vacuum shutoff actuator and made a solenoid one, I could build a module that monitored RPM and could set a Max RPM where it uses the shutdown solenoid to cut off fuel till the RPM drops to a certain speed where it turns off the solenoid and the rack is allowed to go back to full fueling. Basically turning the engine on and off repeatedly like a modern gas car.
How fast would the cutoff solenoid work? The more powerful engines in lighter vehicles will zip to redline very fast in lower gears.
What is a safe max speed for, say, a turbo OM617? If they can safely rev to 6500 rpms but volumetric efficeincy is worthless below, for example, 5800 rpms, would the governor perform adequately?[/quote]
Quote:This would allow full fueling right up to the rev limited speed, unlike the max speed governor, which starts cutting fuel long before red line.
How much of an RPM spread for max speed governor are you talking about? Can this be modified without side effect?
Quote:Then to take it a step further, a stepper motor such as an IAC from an old throttle body injection unit could be used to replace the ALDA so that it’s function could be controlled by computer as well.
This could be wonderful. Steppers do not need a position sensor to monitor movement so they can work in open loop, simplifying programming and circuit design. I haven't played with steppers yet, but I've researched installing them on my lathe for an NC conversion. A NEMA stepper in the 20kg/cm can be had for around $25.
MAP would be the only input needed, correct? The way the pump is designed, RPM need not be monitored for alda operation.
The issue of fitting the motor to the pump so that it can survive the vibrations would likely be the most complicated part.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 11-24-2012
(11-24-2012, 09:50 AM)raysorenson How fast would the cutoff solenoid work? The more powerful engines in lighter vehicles will zip to redline very fast in lower gears.
What is a safe max speed for, say, a turbo OM617? If they can safely rev to 6500 rpms but volumetric efficeincy is worthless below, for example, 5800 rpms, would the governor perform adequately?
A solenoid could be very quick, ( turn on a 6000 and off at 5500), where the vacuum actuator would be slow to return after it was activated. The only reason I see to have a rev limiter is in case of a stuck throttle during a shift or other malfunction. I bet the valves would float before the rods came out, but I see no reason to try to spin a 61X engine past 6K.
(11-24-2012, 09:50 AM)raysorenson How much of an RPM spread for max speed governor are you talking about? Can this be modified without side effect?
The Max Speed Governor will start counteracting the throttle as soon as 3500 RPM, as it has to be able to be close to the cut off point by the time the engine reaches the regulated RPM. So when I am powering up to get into position, as engine starts making good power the Speed governor is pulling off fuel and the power falls flat. With the modded PCs and good boost, these engines will take a lot more fuel at the top end compared to stock.
Quote: [OM616] Then to take it a step further, a stepper motor such as an IAC from an old throttle body injection unit could be used to replace the ALDA so that it’s function could be controlled by computer as well.
(11-24-2012, 09:50 AM)raysorenson This could be wonderful. Steppers do not need a position sensor to monitor movement so they can work in open loop, simplifying programming and circuit design. I haven't played with steppers yet, but I've researched installing them on my lathe for an NC conversion. A NEMA stepper in the 20kg/cm can be had for around $25.
MAP would be the only input needed, correct? The way the pump is designed, RPM need not be monitored for alda operation.
The issue of fitting the motor to the pump so that it can survive the vibrations would likely be the most complicated part.
Like I said, there are automotive stepper motors with enough travel to do the job. I would have a TPS as well, that way when you stab the peddle to get out of the way, the computer will lift the ALDA rod sooner, (pre boost) so you will get power sooner to get moving faster.
I modded a governor before where I eliminated the TC and Max speed governors, it was a lot of fun, very much like a good gas engine
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - raysorenson - 11-24-2012
I reckon the max speed governor does take too long to do it's job.
Quote:Like I said, there are automotive stepper motors with enough travel to do the job.
Yes, I noticed that the first time you mentioned it and I thought it was a bad idea. What are the pro's of using junkyard IAC stuff?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 11-24-2012
(11-24-2012, 07:27 PM)raysorenson Yes, I noticed that the first time you mentioned it and I thought it was a bad idea. What are the pro's of using junkyard IAC stuff?
LOL, junkyard?? nah.... these things can be had new for cheap, and as for the pros, they are designed to be used in "under the hood" conditions, that includes vibration, temperatures, and fuel.
I prefer to use known parts instead of getting something from Mouser and hoping that it will tolerate the environment, but that is me.
I most likely would not bother with controlling the ALDA via computer, but if done properly, it would be a nice tuneability feature.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - raysorenson - 11-25-2012
Here, we have an age-old forum quandry. A respected member who's demonstrated proficiency in a particular skill or knowledge set speaking of a separate discipline with too much confidence, possibly leading those who've stopped looking at his posts with a critical eye astray.
I'll continue to take my "chances" with the meticulously spec'd products found in mouser's catalog.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 11-25-2012
(11-25-2012, 09:39 AM)raysorenson Here, we have an age-old forum quandry. A respected member who's demonstrated proficiency in a particular skill or knowledge set speaking of a separate discipline with too much confidence, possibly leading those who've stopped looking at his posts with a critical eye astray.
I'll continue to take my "chances" with the meticulously spec'd products found in mouser's catalog.
So I should take you off my Christmas card list then? You don't work for Mouser do you? lol. I get a lot of stuff from them.
I do find it interesting that a simple idea discussed over coffee can become so personally aggressive. My point is that there are parts made specifically for automotive engine application, with track records of years of service, have good weather pack connectors, and can be had at any auto parts store for a reasonable price. I try not the reinvent the wheel when there is one that could very well do the job available. Of course there are other liner stepper motors out there that would work, that is without saying.
The concept of taking a part that Bosch designed off the pump and replacing it with anything else, regardless of where it comes from, is an arrogant thing to do to most people.
I am perfectly willing to compare outcomes with you when you have some run time on your design, who knows, maybe we will both learn something
__________
Additionally, I have designed and built automotive and military level, data acquisition based, actuator control systems from the board up
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - raysorenson - 11-25-2012
Me calling bullshit on someone on the intarweb is not personal. It's helpful:-)
You still sound like you don't know what you're talking about with this stepper motor stuff. Weather pack is what GM calls a sealed connector. I liken calling a sealed connector "weather pack" to someone calling nitrous oxide "NOS". Additionally, the uncrimped pins can be had from pretty much any sealed connector system and if not, wires can be soldered and heat shrinked. And finally, you'd need a very strange bird of a stepper for ALDA control if you want to avoid gear reduction, which is a deal breaker for me. I'd be surprised if you could find if you could find the ideal stepper under a hood.
On a more substantive note, why even use a stepper when you only want a small amount of linear motion? A solenoid would work faster, require no gearing and use only 2 wires with the price of needing position feedback. How much force is required of the ALDA?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 11-25-2012
(11-25-2012, 07:57 PM)raysorenson You still sound like you don't know what you're talking about with this stepper motor stuff. Weather pack is what GM calls a sealed connector. I liken calling a sealed connector "weather pack" to someone calling nitrous oxide "NOS". Additionally, the uncrimped pins can be had from pretty much any sealed connector system and if not, wires can be soldered and heat shrinked. And finally, you'd need a very strange bird of a stepper for ALDA control if you want to avoid gear reduction, which is a deal breaker for me. I'd be surprised if you could find if you could find the ideal stepper under a hood.
You caught me... 12 year GM R&D. I have no idea what you are thinking in regards to what you think I am taking about, "gear reduction" ?? I have attached a pic of what I have used for other apps with good success. The tip unscrews, which allows for other things to be attached.
Here is a quick pic of one I found on e-bay. No reduction needed, it moves in and out in small controllable steps (or in GM terms "counts") and holds its position with out power required.
(11-25-2012, 07:57 PM)raysorenson On a more substantive note, why even use a stepper when you only want a small amount of linear motion? A solenoid would work faster, require no gearing and use only 2 wires with the price of needing position feedback. How much force is required of the ALDA?
I really do not think you understand what I am talking about, but it sounds like you have a good plan, feel free to use what ever you what on your set up.
There is no arguing with anyone that thinks the other is an idiot, so I will leave this up to you... given you think I am full of shit, (not entirely impossible, I have never seen my insides to know for sure), would you prefer that I not post over here any more? I have no problem being called out, but at least know what the hell I am talking about, or provide some proof to support your claims.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - Tmadia - 11-26-2012
(11-25-2012, 09:39 AM)raysorenson Here, we have an age-old forum quandry. A respected member who's demonstrated proficiency in a particular skill or knowledge set speaking of a separate discipline with too much confidence, possibly leading those who've stopped looking at his posts with a critical eye astray.
I'll continue to take my "chances" with the meticulously spec'd products found in mouser's catalog.
Here is the true " age-old" quandry seen on the internet. Someone wants to try something new and there is no end of 'experts' claiming it won't work. Do you have [undefined=undefined]any[/undefined] evidence it won't work or are you just being contrarian for the hell of it? If you have evidence then bring it forward, if not then state your objections about it but don't claim you know for a fact it won't work because NOBODY knows. This is what experimentation is all about!
You and Forced Induction should go bowling...
Having been a mechanical engineer for the past 15 years I have seen things work that I was SURE would not. I have learned to keep my mouth shut unless I have tried it myself.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - raysorenson - 11-26-2012
Ahh, we're on the same page, you've just got the nomenclature mixed up. Unless you know something I don't, the picture you've posted is of a solenoid, not a stepper. Steppers rotate and require more than 2 wires.
While a stepper motor could get the job done, gearing would be required to change motion from rotational to linear. Since the linear motion required is very little, gear reduction might be necessary to allow a stepper motor to finely adjust ALDA position, unless you've got a stepper motor than can move in very small increments without detents, then you can just use a rack and pinion or worm gear to go from rotation to linear motion. The nice thing about stepper motors is that position does not need to be measured with a potentiometer so closed loop PID control isn't necessary. I don't like messing with PID control.
The best known automotive use of a variable position solenoid is an IAC valve and I see now why you mentioned IAC earlier. Steppers were used for IAC control in the 80's on some CFI setups but those gave way to solenoids. To my knowledge, all variable position solenoids in production automotive powertrain controls are used in closed loop and I don't see how ALDA control would be an exception. This sucks. You'll need a linear potentiometer ("string pot", as someone with your experience would know them;-) ) somehow rigged up to measure movement and, of course, fcvkin PID control.
It's starting to look like the M pump would be the best candidate for electronic ALDA control since a stepper could be more easily adapted.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 11-26-2012
(11-26-2012, 08:58 AM)raysorenson Ahh, we're on the same page, you've just got the nomenclature mixed up. Unless you know something I don't, the picture you've posted is of a solenoid, not a stepper. Steppers rotate and require more than 2 wires.
(11-26-2012, 08:58 AM)raysorenson I haven't played with steppers yet, but I've researched installing them on my lathe for an NC conversion.
Keep reading about stepper motors and you will eventually get to some that that are linear in action, such as the one pictured above. It is obvious that you have never had one in you hand or worked with this one, or one like it before, probably before your time, and as you said, these are new to you.
How this one works, the shaft has a key way the full length of the shaft. This key way allows a tab in the body to keep the shaft from rotating, yet allowing it to move in and out.
Inside the housing is a specially designed stepper motor. Inside the housing, the shaft is threaded on the OD, and the motor has threads on the ID of the Armature, so as the armature rotates, the shaft moves in or out depending on the direction of armature rotation. There are actually 4 pins in the connector to be clear. How you were able to see any from that pic is beyond me.
So to recap, we are not on the "same Page". The pictured item is not a solenoid, it is a liner stepper motor, the shaft does not rotate, but moves in and out in very small steps that are controlled my how many steps the motor turns. This unit has a very nice "Weather Pack" "4 pin" connector and is designed for use in under the hood conditions. This unit also has a threaded end so it can be easily attached to an adaptor to the pump.
Tmadia nailed it!!! Now stop embarrassing yourself and polluting my thread.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - raysorenson - 11-26-2012
A pic of where the step motor would go on the M pump. Possibly doable on the MW but the shutoff lever is on the other side and it might get too tight for a stepper.
![[Image: mpumpalda.png]](http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q316/Ochlockonee/mpumpalda.png)
If you just mapped against boost, programming would be super simple, adding throttle position would add another dimension to the map which I'd rather not play with right off the bat. Other options include valet mode (always a crowd pleaser), EGT and maybe even EBP fuel cut and passive anti-theft. I suppose you could also limit max fuel permanently if your pump is setup for 350hp but you've only got enough turbo for 275. Lotsa fun possibilities with this.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 11-26-2012
(11-26-2012, 01:01 PM)raysorenson A pic of where the step motor would go on the M pump. Possibly doable on the MW but the shutoff lever is on the other side and it might get too tight for a stepper.
If you just mapped against boost, programming would be super simple, adding throttle position would add another dimension to the map which I'd rather not play with right off the bat. Other options include valet mode (always a crowd pleaser), EGT and maybe even EBP fuel cut and passive anti-theft. I suppose you could also limit max fuel permanently if your pump is setup for 350hp but you've only got enough turbo for 275. Lotsa fun possibilities with this.
I do not think you really understood my last post.....you certainly have not addressed it!
Please start you own thread about your approach to this concept.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - raysorenson - 11-26-2012
(11-26-2012, 01:00 PM)OM616 So to recap, we are not on the "same Page". The pictured item is not a solenoid, it is a liner stepper motor, the shaft does not rotate, but moves in and out in very small steps that are controlled my how many steps the motor turns. This unit has a very nice "Weather Pack" "4 pin" connector and is designed for use in under the hood conditions. This unit also has a threaded end so it can be easily attached to an adaptor to the pump.
Tmadia nailed it!!! Now stop embarrassing yourself and polluting my thread.
Well, you do know something I don't. This is great, more options, each with their own merit. Thanks for the info. We'll see who gets what built first.
(11-26-2012, 01:25 PM)OM616 I do not think you really understood my last post.....you certainly have not addressed it!
Please start you own thread about your approach to this concept.
Chill with the roid rage, sir. There was one minute between our posts.
I will not be starting another thread, since I'd rather not have people begging me to produce a product that may never see the light of day [cough]10mm MW pump[/cough] and all the information I need has already been posted. Thanks again, and creative credit will go to you.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 11-26-2012
(11-26-2012, 01:38 PM)raysorenson(11-26-2012, 01:00 PM)OM616 So to recap, we are not on the "same Page". The pictured item is not a solenoid, it is a liner stepper motor, the shaft does not rotate, but moves in and out in very small steps that are controlled my how many steps the motor turns. This unit has a very nice "Weather Pack" "4 pin" connector and is designed for use in under the hood conditions. This unit also has a threaded end so it can be easily attached to an adaptor to the pump.
Tmadia nailed it!!! Now stop embarrassing yourself and polluting my thread.
Well, you do know something I don't. This is great, more options, each with their own merit. Thanks for the info. We'll see who gets what built first.
(11-26-2012, 01:25 PM)OM616 I do not think you really understood my last post.....you certainly have not addressed it!
Please start you own thread about your approach to this concept.
Chill with the roid rage, sir. There was one minute between our posts.
I will not be starting another thread, since I'd rather not have people begging me to produce a product that may never see the light of day [cough]10mm MW pump[/cough] and all the information I need has already been posted. Thanks again, and creative credit will go to you.
Is this your idea of an apology??? You either have balls or something stuck in your throat, perhaps some water will help your cough.
After your demonstration of your limited knowledge, I would not be worried about anyone begging you for anything, besides silence that is.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 11-27-2012
I actually got around to opening up the boxes with the master injectors and stroke counter today. It is like Christmas, only I paid for the presents.
The variable frequency drive is the last major component left, and it is not cheep either, nothing seems to be lol.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 01-20-2013
The motor controller came yesterday, so that is one less part that is needed. Just some gages, solenoid valves and fab materials left to build the basic machine with out the digital interface.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - MFSuper90 - 01-20-2013
Jeesh. Chill out fellas, we are all here to throw ideas around and talk to one another. I, for one, keep quiet if i think someone else posted something that was BS, because when i was little my mother taught me "If you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all"
I think its a cool idea, and will be watching the production
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - sassparilla_kid - 01-20-2013
What kind of gauges do you need?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 01-20-2013
(01-20-2013, 11:21 PM)sassparilla_kid What kind of gauges do you need?
I am going to use 5, 3inch face, 2inch range dial indicators. Don't bother to say "what?", it will all be clear you see some pics of it all together. lol I do it a little different than everyone else
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - mike-81-240d - 01-24-2013
I'll be back in a W123 again soon with plenty of money in my pocket to burn. Can I be one of the OM617 MW guinea pigs?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 01-24-2013
(01-24-2013, 01:31 AM)mike-81-240d I'll be back in a W123 again soon with plenty of money in my pocket to burn. Can I be one of the OM617 MW guinea pigs?
The goal is not to have any guinea pigs, and to be confident in the set up. I am very busy with work, the pump stuff is not a priority right now. I am picking up bits and pieces as I can to have everything to build the calibration machine when I get the chance.
It will depend if I am sick of building them by the time I get the ones I am committed to done.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - lpumb3 - 01-25-2013
so ah how bout that modded MW pump ? /-0
as far as max rpm limiter ? inorder to keep it simple can the gov srings be swaped to say 50% heavier springs(fly weight springs?) to , keep the gov from cutting fuel untill 4500-5500? i do understand what trying to be accomplished but i dont understand the different type of switches actuators .
i did find this site when i was goofing with the idea of VNTs , and trans vacuum controller , plus they ar giving away a free switch ? http://www.worldmagnetics.com/
neeat stuff ill learn more before i think ill even be able to contribute .
As far as these pumps its good to see that you are getting all your stuff to gether to build em OM 616 , looking forward to seeing videos/pics etc
for got to ask , should one consider opening up the passages into the injector bodys , right at the fuel lines , to accomodate 8/10mm elements /dvs / 314-315 injectors ?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 01-25-2013
(01-25-2013, 03:30 PM)lpumb3 so ah how bout that modded MW pump ? /-0
as far as max rpm limiter ? inorder to keep it simple can the gov srings be swaped to say 50% heavier springs(fly weight springs?) to , keep the gov from cutting fuel untill 4500-5500? i do understand what trying to be accomplished but i dont understand the different type of switches actuators .
i did find this site when i was goofing with the idea of VNTs , and trans vacuum controller , plus they ar giving away a free switch ? http://www.worldmagnetics.com/
neeat stuff ill learn more before i think ill even be able to contribute .
As far as these pumps its good to see that you are getting all your stuff to gether to build em OM 616 , looking forward to seeing videos/pics etc
for got to ask , should one consider opening up the passages into the injector bodys , right at the fuel lines , to accomodate 8/10mm elements /dvs / 314-315 injectors ?
Regardless where the Max speed setting is, the Governor starts cutting fuel about 1800 rpm prior, so power starts falling off and flatting out early.
To get full fueling up to 5000 RPM, you would need to set the max speed for about 7000 RPM. I have eliminated the max speed governor in a MW pump for a track car before, but I kind of like the idea of a rev limiter should something happen, so that is why I will be using a RPM switch to control a vacuum control solenoid, which will put vacuum to the shut down actuator, which will intern pull the rack back at 5000 RPM or where ever I want.
Changing the springs will not have an effect on the fuel reduction curve, as that is determined my the governor lever ratios and the plunger helix.
As for the injector bodies, they are good as they are, no need to mess with them. Much larger nozzles used in trucks use this type of body so flow capability is fine, it is the nozzles ability to flow more fuel in a atomized pattern that is the issue.
As for videos… not likely lol…I’m not one for the spotlite
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - lpumb3 - 01-25-2013
cool thanks om616 , i was thinking that the cut out would be from the fly weights inertia pushing against the gov spring . i still dont totally under stand where there inertia plays its roll ,and on what . i was hopeing it could be as si mple as just uprated (underrated)springs everywhere for all the extra speed happenign .
as far as the max speed gov, as you said it would need to be at 7k to get fuel to 5k. is that inside the range of adjustabilty or would an diferent spring/max gov/ be needed.let say i want to set my pump up to run 5-6k no problems . assuming i could find a element with th right design . is it possibly to runn them at 50-6k mechanically. is that simply not accomplish-able with out removal and modulation electronically as your hypothesizing .
lever ratios? are these the "sring levers " show in some of the cut aways in this thread .
i figured id ask about the injector bodys, since some of these big power truck guys are running larger lines . diddnt know if it would help the balance with all the new higher flowing parts of the puzzle .i just pulled the pump off of my donor and im going to "examine " it now . ill start taking pics with a real camera soon .
thanks agian for taking the time to school me , and help out , any momentum im making , is due to this forum and its members thank you all .
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 01-25-2013
(01-25-2013, 09:36 PM)lpumb3 cool thanks om616 , i was thinking that the cut out would be from the fly weights inertia pushing against the gov spring .
You are correct, the fly weight force increases as speed increases, and eventually starts to over come the spring. Changing the spring out for a stronger one will result in a higher speed before the weights will have enough force to overcome the spring.
(01-25-2013, 09:36 PM)lpumb3 i was hopeing it could be as si mple as just uprated (underrated)springs everywhere for all the extra speed happenign .
as far as the max speed gov, as you said it would need to be at 7k to get fuel to 5k. is that inside the range of adjustabilty or would an diferent spring/max gov/ be needed.let say i want to set my pump up to run 5-6k no problems . assuming i could find a element with th right design . is it possibly to runn them at 50-6k mechanically. is that simply not accomplish-able with out removal and modulation electronically as your hypothesizing .
You will need a stronger spring most likely to prevent any fueling reduction at those speeds.
(01-25-2013, 09:36 PM)lpumb3 lever ratios? are these the "sring levers " show in some of the cut aways in this thread .
Yep, that is them. The fuel is gradually reduced to cut off, not an on / off like EFI engines.
(01-25-2013, 09:36 PM)lpumb3 i figured id ask about the injector bodys, since some of these big power truck guys are running larger lines . diddnt know if it would help the balance with all the new higher flowing parts of the puzzle .i just pulled the pump off of my donor and im going to "examine " it now . ill start taking pics with a real camera soon .
thanks agian for taking the time to school me , and help out , any momentum im making , is due to this forum and its members thank you all .
the capacity of the lines has an effect on the injection, as does the DV, and nozzle. They may be using different lines to tune the injection system.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - lpumb3 - 01-26-2013
thanks again om 616,
so i the process of building a "high speed" pump could some lightening of the wieghts vs finding heavier springs as well as a few select up rated springs create a realative harmony inside the pump or no ? lets say i had the fly wheel on the bench and a digi scale . i take 2 grams out of each fly weight , and balance them all to fleas tits . (i dont know the weight ) but i would assume 10% no more .
would that then only multiply the need forces in tthe other parts of the pump 15%-30-45 etc.
i get you when you say the fuel is gradually cut . i understand that what going on in there is a crazy balancing act 1 effecting 3. etc . i want to try to keep this build comp manual . no elec stuff
cave man motoras far as the lines , i figured id ask , i see that the volume increase in the lines would be a formula far from my math capability's. these ar on BIG power trucks sled pullers . i was just interested in seeing if this may lend a hand in the formula
seeing as everything on both ends is being turned up .
awesome tread BTW lots to learn , hope fully im contributing
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 01-26-2013
The stock 617a pump is set to cut off fuel at 5200 (ish) RPM, and that is with the weights full out, so the weight assembly will tolerate the speed I think.
The reality of doing what you want, (regardless of how you go about doing it), is that to delay any reduction in fueling until 6000 RPM, I bet the rods would come out, or the valves would float before the governor reached the cut off point. Given that, why not just eliminate the high speed governor all together?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - lpumb3 - 01-26-2013
i was just curious , throwing out a little diffusion
. as you said i could just eliminate the gov. 5200 is plenty high already i guess i was curious if the srings and or flywheel weights could play a roll in fine tuning . as far as returning to idle would the wieghts have a drastic effect ? or would messing around with the wieghts/sprigns potentially solve tunning an element with say on similar to a trucks i guess ? (little off topic but as far as valve float ,has any one ever tried a second set of inner springs on an om head ?)
edit , i should prob have put the questions on your adjust thread . my bad =0
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 01-27-2013
(01-26-2013, 08:05 PM)lpumb3 i was just curious , throwing out a little diffusion
(little off topic but as far as valve float ,has any one ever tried a second set of inner springs on an om head ?)
edit , i should prob have put the questions on your adjust thread . my bad =0
Keep in mind that although the tack may read 5000 RPM, it is not making any more power than is required to keep the engine running, for example, in neutral, if you floor the throttle, the engine will rev up to 5/6 K and sit there with no load at all.
You are correct in that if you lighten the fly weights it will have an effect on the idle stability, how much will depend on how much weight you remove. Dieselmeken has done this on M pumps with success, so you might talk to him, he is a nice fellow and knows what he is talking about.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - lpumb3 - 01-28-2013
i was suprised at how much rev/range these motors had when i bought my benz . coming out of trucks as far as exp . i was amazed.
in another thread, cams are mentioned. could custom cam profile get that band stretched into the big numbers further ?
as far as making power up there :
ive realazed that (at leaststock) holding the pedal on the floor in third at 45k to 55k does no more than letting the thing shift into 4th and do its own thing around 3-35k except smoke .i had assumed there could be big problems screwing with those weights. id be interested in finding out what DM has done and its effects on the pump range.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 01-28-2013
(01-28-2013, 08:51 AM)lpumb3 i was suprised at how much rev/range these motors had when i bought my benz . coming out of trucks as far as exp . i was amazed.
in another thread, cams are mentioned. could custom cam profile get that band stretched into the big numbers further ?
as far as making power up there :
i had assumed there could be big problems screwing with those weights. id be interested in finding out what DM has done and its effects on the pump range.
The Prechamber doesn’t breath well at high speed, and the valves could be larger. The Finns have been opening up the PCs for a long time now, which allows them to get higher RPMs with lots of fuel.
The MW IP cam is fine, using 10mm elements will provide a very quick delivery rate.
The valve camshaft would benefit from a better grind for sure. There have been a couple of threads that identify a couple of grind shops that could rework the MB cam.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - poleshady - 05-12-2013
I have an M pump on my 617 now (it was imported from europe at some point i bought it in arizona then shipped it to hawaii, also has a factory 4 speed) some one is giving me a turbo 617 this weekend, and Im not sure which one to build. ive been reading threads on this stuff for months, and am still confused what i actually need to do to build one of these pumps up. I probably read what to actually do, from dieselmeken and others but its confusing without seeing them apart infront of me.
I dont want a speed demon, maybe 180-200 hp, am I asking too much? or should i stop while im ahead and have a running engine? any advice would help
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - SurfRodder - 05-13-2013
(05-12-2013, 11:28 PM)poleshady I have an M pump on my 617 now (it was imported from europe at some point i bought it in arizona then shipped it to hawaii, also has a factory 4 speed) some one is giving me a turbo 617 this weekend, and Im not sure which one to build. ive been reading threads on this stuff for months, and am still confused what i actually need to do to build one of these pumps up. I probably read what to actually do, from dieselmeken and others but its confusing without seeing them apart infront of me.
I dont want a speed demon, maybe 180-200 hp, am I asking too much? or should i stop while im ahead and have a running engine? any advice would help
I'd throw the turbo engine in now as that would be an improvement over the non-turbo. Then pull the M pump off the old engine and ship it to someone who knows what they're doing. I had my pump (an MW) rebuilt at a place here in CA, but that was with tomnik's elements and he no longer sell those directly. The M pump is by far more common to modify as that was the majority of the pumps avail in Europe where tha majority of the IP tuning takes place. Save up for dieselmenken or the other shop (who's name I forget, but the one who now sources tomnik's elements, a search should yeild the name) here to rebuild your M pump and install that with a larger turbo; like an HX-35 or similar Garrett VNT.
If you have any good yards over there or can afford a 4 speed conversion to be shipped to you, that is a great improvement over the slushbox as well. A full suspension rehab is also something I highly recommend as well as the late model w126 front brake conversion.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - poleshady - 05-13-2013
we dont have access to many parts here, and no junkyards unless you want to buy stuff from rusty hondas.
it has the manual 4 speed in it already. is that what you meant by slush box?
I havent found any decent shops here to do the work, I cant just buy slightly larger elements and put them in myself? it has to be shipped off? im sure shipping will cost as much as the work will.
for the brake conversion you need the spindle, calipers and rotors, anything else? and since we dont have any good junk yards here, can those be bough new at a napa or other auto parts store?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - Simpler=Better - 05-13-2013
(05-13-2013, 01:49 PM)poleshady we dont have access to many parts here, and no junkyards unless you want to buy stuff from rusty hondas.I've heard of pump calibration costing around $500 at the absolute cheapest.
it has the manual 4 speed in it already. is that what you meant by slush box?
I havent found any decent shops here to do the work, I cant just buy slightly larger elements and put them in myself? it has to be shipped off? im sure shipping will cost as much as the work will.
for the brake conversion you need the spindle, calipers and rotors, anything else? and since we dont have any good junk yards here, can those be bough new at a napa or other auto parts store?
The typical number that gets tossed around is $1500 for a super pump + shipping
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 05-13-2013
(05-13-2013, 01:49 PM)poleshady I havent found any decent shops here to do the work, I cant just buy slightly larger elements and put them in myself? it has to be shipped off? im sure shipping will cost as much as the work will.
Is it possible for you to tear the pump down and change the elements out?.... yes if you have the proper special tools to do it, and the service manual for the pump that shows how to do it... I know of a couple of people who have done it.... the issue is balancing the elements after reassembly, as this has to be done on a special machine. I know of one who has tried to balance the elements on the engine, but afterward the pump was put on a proper machine, and it showed how off they were.
If you have a Turbo 617 available and plan one putting that in place of the NA, then considering your location, you may be best served to adjust the Governor and put a VNT turbo on it, that combination will totally change how the car drives, and with the manual trans, I think you will be able to reach your "seat of your pants" performance goals. Just my 2 cents....
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - 1911diesel - 05-13-2013
any updates for us? how is your venture going 616 i have a spare pump and i keep staring at the elements going maybe tomorrow... but if i buy them ill buy enough for all 4 pumps and try n find a deal on having all 4 done.
so what is the best way to go about buying these elements? i have been to the web site and (i think) i have found the elements, but no buy it now or "cart". i see they have an ebay page, i even searched their part number in their shop, but no luck. I saw they have an american sales contact email. but alas i havent shot them an email yet. i am still looking for the barrels for the elements. are they just a part of the element? or do i need to order them as well? oh and if i do buy them, how will i know if they are the right ones? i have nothing to compare them to...lol how will i know a bad one from a usable one?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - mantahead - 05-13-2013
I know of one who has tried to balance the elements on the engine, but afterward the pump was put on a proper machine, and it showed how off they were.
this is so true om616, for all of those thinking it can be done DIY, think again, i've been there and got the t-shirt.
Here is a pic from Dieselmeken after i asked him to put the pump straight into the bench to see how close my DIY element swap was.
LEAVE IT TO THE EXPERTS.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - poleshady - 05-13-2013
(05-13-2013, 03:26 PM)OM616your two cents might have swayed me, everywhere ive heard dont touch the governor, and i know this link:(05-13-2013, 01:49 PM)poleshady I havent found any decent shops here to do the work, I cant just buy slightly larger elements and put them in myself? it has to be shipped off? im sure shipping will cost as much as the work will.
Is it possible for you to tear the pump down and change the elements out?.... yes if you have the proper special tools to do it, and the service manual for the pump that shows how to do it... I know of a couple of people who have done it.... the issue is balancing the elements after reassembly, as this has to be done on a special machine. I know of one who has tried to balance the elements on the engine, but afterward the pump was put on a proper machine, and it showed how off they were.
If you have a Turbo 617 available and plan one putting that in place of the NA, then considering your location, you may be best served to adjust the Governor and put a VNT turbo on it, that combination will totally change how the car drives, and with the manual trans, I think you will be able to reach your "seat of your pants" performance goals. Just my 2 cents....
http://mercedesforum.com/forum/diesel-performance-49/injection-pump-fuel-adjustment-mw-m-pumps-pyrometer-install-46097/
talks about it a little, but have you done it? or know someone who has with any insight or procedure, benefits etc? i did a quick search on it and didnt come up with anything. would you still expect the claimed 20-30 hp increase by fiddling with the pump adjustments, and the governor?
also should I play around with the MW pump, in case i break it or anything goes south and save the M pump for a rainy day? or would the m pump see better benefits?
thanks for that picture it convinced me not to do it myself. out of curiosity are the tuned to be within 1-2% of each other? or what kind of tolerance is acceptable?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 05-14-2013
(05-13-2013, 11:31 PM)poleshady your two cents might have swayed me, everywhere ive heard dont touch the governor, and i know this link:
http://mercedesforum.com/forum/diesel-performance-49/injection-pump-fuel-adjustment-mw-m-pumps-pyrometer-install-46097/
talks about it a little, but have you done it? or know someone who has with any insight or procedure, benefits etc? i did a quick search on it and didnt come up with anything. would you still expect the claimed 20-30 hp increase by fiddling with the pump adjustments, and the governor?
also should I play around with the MW pump, in case i break it or anything goes south and save the M pump for a rainy day? or would the m pump see better benefits?
thanks for that picture it convinced me not to do it myself. out of curiosity are the tuned to be within 1-2% of each other? or what kind of tolerance is acceptable?
Yes I have tuned RW governors which are on MW Injection Pumps... Quite a few actually....even wrote a doc that details the operation of the RW governor so at the end the, reader should have a good idea of what each adjustment does, how they affect each other, and how to recover the "balance" of the adjustments.
I have nothing good to say about the individual who posted the information that the link you posted leads to.... His instructions have resulted in many having an uncontrollable return to idle, and an over all imbalance of the adjustments. He recommends removal of a very important part, and not to adjust what really makes the difference power wise. I can only imagine that this is due to a lack of understanding.
I will also say that everyone that has followed my recommendations has had a successful outcome with good drivability and return to idle. Some have actually gone on to tune other members pumps with success as well.
I am not sure if there is a link to the doc in this thread or not. If some one knows where it is, it would be great if you could post a link to it.
I prefer the MW pump personally. You will need to install an Exhaust Temperature Gage before you start tuning... Also you must have a confident and "correct" understanding of the adjustments before you start turning screws. There are some special tools to make some of the adjustments and procedures to adjust them, but first learn how the governor works and ask questions. It has been a while since governor tuning has been discussed and I am sure there are others by now that are also interested to learn or could use a refresher.
You will be surprised how well it runs with a better turbo (boost sooner) and a tuned governor. I would recommend you first get the most you can out the MW pump before you start spending tons of money on a super pump that will require a big turbo and an intercooler to take advantage of the additional fuel it can deliver.
As for the element out put balancing, it is actually averaged over the full range of rack travel and speeds, as the spread will vary with speed alone, and poor quality elements will see a large spread with rack travel. If you do not know what you are doing, you can find yourself chasing the balance until you ware the pump out! lol
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - poleshady - 05-14-2013
Sounds good thanks, I'll keep an eye out for that link unless someone already has it.
I looked for some egt gauges, I found some on summit racing tat seemed to have the best best price, do you have a preferred brand or a price range that I should pay ?
What about storing the injection pump, should I get the fuel out and replace it with diesel purge, or run it until it runs out of fuel before I take the engine out ?
What would be more beneficial in this case, the stock turbo, rebuilt, maybe with that 60 trim comp wheel that ive head about, or a hx35 or something like that ?
I think I might be getting off topic from the original thread,
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 05-14-2013
(05-14-2013, 04:53 AM)poleshady Sounds good thanks, I'll keep an eye out for that link unless someone already has it.
Here is the link to the doc.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QkAv-HFaLqpK_5wKCln6DODkfw_DkjBHVYZXm0nUtEw/edit?hl=en&authkey=CJXuhs0I&pli=1#
(05-14-2013, 04:53 AM)poleshady I looked for some egt gauges, I found some on summit racing tat seemed to have the best best price, do you have a preferred brand or a price range that I should pay ?
Personally I use the Auto Meter Ultra-lite series gauges... Most are available in mechanical or full sweep analog electronic. I get mine from Summit as well so what ever their price is... You may find one cheaper on E-bay, but if there is a problem with it, I don't think you will have much recourse.
(05-14-2013, 04:53 AM)poleshady What about storing the injection pump, should I get the fuel out and replace it with diesel purge, or run it until it runs out of fuel before I take the engine out ?
I would not recommend running it dry or storing it dry, but at the same time, you do not want the fluid to varnish up over time...I am not sure if there is fuel stabilizer for diesel fuel or not...
The purge is a cleaner and I would imagine that it might attack the seals over time, but I am not sure on that. It may be best to empty out as much fuel as possible, (by tipping it, not running it dry) and then fill it with a thin hydraulic oil.
(05-14-2013, 04:53 AM)poleshady What would be more beneficial in this case, the stock turbo, rebuilt, maybe with that 60 trim comp wheel that ive head about, or a hx35 or something like that ?
Although this question is outside the realm of the topic, it is related, as with additional fuel, additional air is needed, so I only ask that great care is taken not to go into great detail about turbos, but a general reference to options is good, as one can then go to the turbo threads and research specifics there.
Personally, I want boost sooner, and that is generally controlled by the turbine side, and where a VNT type turbo is better for daily drivers. The governor adjustments will be shifting the fueling curve down to lower RPM ranges (where we drive) so the boost curve needs to be shifted down to lower RPMs as well.
I recommend going to the Turbo thread and ask your question there, as that is where the Turbo guys have posted results and will answer questions like yours.
(05-13-2013, 04:16 PM)1911diesel any updates for us? how is your venture going 616 i have a spare pump and i keep staring at the elements going maybe tomorrow... but if i buy them ill buy enough for all 4 pumps and try n find a deal on having all 4 done.
so what is the best way to go about buying these elements? i have been to the web site and (i think) i have found the elements, but no buy it now or "cart". i see they have an ebay page, i even searched their part number in their shop, but no luck. I saw they have an american sales contact email. but alas i havent shot them an email yet. i am still looking for the barrels for the elements. are they just a part of the element? or do i need to order them as well? oh and if i do buy them, how will i know if they are the right ones? i have nothing to compare them to...lol how will i know a bad one from a usable one?
Sorry, I missed your post...
If you are talking about 10mm elements, there are a gazillion different ones, along with thick and thin flanged, so you really have to know what you are looking for. The plunger and barrels are a matched set, (not purchased separately and plungers can not be swapped to other barrels).
I can see that you have a bad case of the excitements, and recommend that you do not do anything until you have done so much research that you are board with the project lol....
I also recommend that you look at this thread, there is a mention of a shop that has done MB pumps for members before. http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-4533.html
I am way behind schedule with my plans....
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 05-15-2013
Well my 616 IP has finally crapped out...
On the plus side this should be the motivation I need to get a pump built with the new elements to see how they balance up, and if the helix needs to be ground to even them up.
I will not have my machine built in time so I will see about building the pump up and taking it to a shop to strictly balance the elements out for me.
___
Up date;
I did a compression check as well and the compression is really low, it is used up.... I found a good used engine to replace it with so I will set that one up with the new pump and an up graded turbo.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - poleshady - 05-21-2013
I read that document and took a look at the IP, how do you guys manage to make all those changes to the tuning and get your hands in there with the oil filter in the way, or do you all have a remote oil filter already?