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+--- Thread: 617 Franken-5-speed (/showthread.php?tid=323)
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 05-22-2010
sweet!
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-23-2010
tentatively, it seems to be working! Ive got some shift linkage issues Im working on, the reverse, overdrive bar I think needs to be lengthened, I had to hold it in 5th. Then when I got back, it would not easily go into 4th, but would easily go into 5th.
Im getting some ramps today and trying to resolve this, sick of the jack stands
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-23-2010
Ok, working as advertised!!
The speedometer is working properly, the W201 fork and W123 release bearing appear to be working together, and the W123 Master cylinder and W201 slave cylinder appear to be working together.
There is no drivetrain noise at speed, I have now put about 20 miles on the car in three test drives, so I will see how that develops.
I was having an adjustment problem with the overdrive, the linkage had to be tweaked slightly and run out a bit further as it was not completely going into gear and grinding. I think just a tad more and it should be taken care of.
Stuff left to do drivetrain wise-
1- Final adjustment of R/5 bar
2- Ive got to attach the exhaust pipe bracket. I just removed it for the test drives, but it needs to attach to the transmission somehow.
3- I have to reseal the plug on the bottom of the trans as it is seeping slightly
4- I have to wire in the neutral safety and wire in the reverse lights, which will take a trip to the yards to find the W201 switch.
That should be about it, then its time to put some miles on it. Unfortunately I sprung a fuel leak on the final test drive, and I have about 50 things to do to get the car technically road legal which I will be working on for the rest of the day.
So far, the 616 feels ready for overdrive at about 55-60 mph. I have to put a tach in this car and fix the odometer as well. I get to change my signature!
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 05-23-2010
Dose is still accelerate in 5th from 60-75 nicely? my car really likes 50-65mph and can do 75mph for extended periods but it's working for it
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-24-2010
(05-23-2010, 11:30 PM)willbhere4u Dose is still accelerate in 5th from 60-75 nicely? my car really likes 50-65mph and can do 75mph for extended periods but it's working for it
Well, honestly, I forgot just how incredibly gutless the 616 is
, The local highway here is pretty hilly and curvy and the 616 would not support overdrive on the uphills. There are a lot of gear changes anyway with traffic as well. seems to have decent power though on the flats. I will try and cruise for some distance and see how it does when I reach a more open highway. Trying to fix the fuel leak today, debating whether or not I want to jump in feet first and take this car upstate before sealing the floor or not. I may have to get some earplugs
Would not be a problem except Im a little worried that the family dog (who comes with me) will fall out the floor pan in the course of the 5 hr drive. He has a habit of trying to sit as close next to the drive as possible, which is where the biggest hole still is
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-24-2010
Ok, I just uploaded a video I took of the first test drive where I discover that Im popping out of overdrive since the linkage is too short.
I was not happy, but its been adjusted out. My biggest problem was that you can move the arms underneath and it will go fully into gear, but you really need someone up top showing you how far the shifter moves the same arms. In other words that shift arm on the trasmission will pull the shift arms on the stick further than you can actually move them from up top. When I got someone to shift from above while I watched the translated movement, it became far more clear
In this video you can see it partially go into gear, then pops out and grinds. horrible noise with the floor missing, totally amplified! Wear some headphones for the full effect.
1-4 worked great though. Ill post another video next weekend with it adjusted out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWEbgU9j1Rw
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - Kozuka - 05-24-2010
You used the 240D linkage right? Looks like it needs that extra half inch or so. Wore headphones *nasty* 5th.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 05-24-2010
Big difference having an over drive you can here how high 4th is compared before it pop's out of 5th
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-24-2010
have to head upstate again, but I am still having strange issues with overdrive which I will think about throughout the week. So, now its adjusted fine, throw of the stick moves it completely into gear, but most of the time it won't stay unless you hold it, sometimes it works perfectly, sometimes not.
If I don't get it figured out, im going to toast the gear accidentally. I swapped the shifter assemblies, and its really amazing how different it is to shift based on the quality of the shifter!
The first one is really clean, and it shifts beautifully, the second one is crusty and nasty, and its really hard to shift. I would assume it were in the transmission if I did not have this comparison.
I took a really close look at both shifter assemblies and I think the problem could be in them. Things are unbelievably complex. They both have a steel ring worn to various degrees in the bottom. The ring has a boot which must be to soften the shifting I guess.
heres a pic of the good one-
Notice this metal ring that is worn here, and the crack right on the bottom? the bad one does not have that, but its even more worn in the center rubber section.
The crack widens when you put pressure on the shifter towards where the overdrive position is, and on the crappy one, the boot is worn out completely. They both are broken in a different way, but Im not sure whats broken has anything to do with the issue.
just in case I am going to pull apart my 717.412 next weekend and check it against my photos of pulling apart the 717.411 to make sure something is not missing from the tranny, or if something is misadjusted inside. Fortunately, if it is an internal problem related only to overdrive, its on the end of the transmission thats accessible.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 05-24-2010
Good luck this will be tit's when it working correctly!!!
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - winmutt - 05-26-2010
I believe some or all of the shifter internal parts are replaceable and available from classic parts.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 05-26-2010
(05-24-2010, 01:20 PM)dropnosky have to head upstate again, but I am still having strange issues with overdrive which I will think about throughout the week. So, now its adjusted fine, throw of the stick moves it completely into gear, but most of the time it won't stay unless you hold it, sometimes it works perfectly, sometimes not.
If I don't get it figured out, im going to toast the gear accidentally. I swapped the shifter assemblies, and its really amazing how different it is to shift based on the quality of the shifter!
The first one is really clean, and it shifts beautifully, the second one is crusty and nasty, and its really hard to shift. I would assume it were in the transmission if I did not have this comparison.
I took a really close look at both shifter assemblies and I think the problem could be in them. Things are unbelievably complex. They both have a steel ring worn to various degrees in the bottom. The ring has a boot which must be to soften the shifting I guess.
heres a pic of the good one-
Notice this metal ring that is worn here, and the crack right on the bottom? the bad one does not have that, but its even more worn in the center rubber section.
The crack widens when you put pressure on the shifter towards where the overdrive position is, and on the crappy one, the boot is worn out completely. They both are broken in a different way, but Im not sure whats broken has anything to do with the issue.
just in case I am going to pull apart my 717.412 next weekend and check it against my photos of pulling apart the 717.411 to make sure something is not missing from the tranny, or if something is misadjusted inside. Fortunately, if it is an internal problem related only to overdrive, its on the end of the transmission thats accessible.
Isn`t that worn part, the brass bushings they are using that I listed up in post#111?
http://mercedes-190.co.uk/single/?p=8160322&t=6576914
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-27-2010
Isn`t that worn part, the brass bushings they are using that I listed up in post#111?
http://mercedes-190.co.uk/single/?p=8160322&t=6576914
Charlie
[/quote]
Yeah, you are right, thats exactly what it is! Somehow I completely missed that part of the shift mod they were doing. Ive got the crappy shifter turned into a short shift, but I did not remove them to do that, I just cut and welded them on the unit. maybe I should just go all brass for these bushings.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - charmalu - 05-29-2010
Yeah, sometimes ya can`t see the forest for the trees.
I located a 5-spd out of a 85 190-E 173,426 miles indicated.
a 717.411 trans.
I might go back today an drop it. 50% off this weekend
someone got the shifter, but the rods are still there. maybe they
removed the shifter so snoopy eyes wouldn`t notice the 5-spd knob,
and coming back for the kill.
Charlie
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-30-2010
well, I need parts for the good shifter-
Its got this aluminum piece that looks like a yoke that it cracked like a said before. I took the thing almost completely apart, there is some trouble with a peg that keeps the spring loaded end of the shaft in for the reverse lock out, so I have not completely removed this plastic piece.
some pics-
The rubber parts for this one are in way way better shape than the ones for the other one, but the other one the metal is in better shape. I am taking that one apart now to see If I can't just get the flipping thing to work for the interim
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-30-2010
Eureka! I know what the problem is! Have been doing research of old photo archives of mine.
I am missing a detent spring, here is a pic of when I first took apart this tranny a year ago. I must have lost this spring in transit when I moved.
There is a swivel lockout on the reverse/overdrive internal shift arm, and the spring missing would mean it would sort of randomly swing back and forth.
This totally explains the sometimes working, sometimes not overdrive. I took the thing on I think 12 test drives with the linkage and shifter in different adjustments, and moved it all over the place. I even went so far as to weld in a little extra length on the lever, now I have to remove it. Those components are totally eliminated from the problem
To fix this I have to pull the forward driveshaft, linkage arms, and the rear cover on the tranny, hopefully tomorrow morning.
Also, took care of the shifter temporarily, combined the best parts of both shifters and fixed the bad bushings with something we all have around the hosehold.
The pic does not show it clearly, but take a guess what fits almost perfectly in that bore-Removing the rubber bushing there totally changes the feel of the shift, I really like it, its a closer harder feel, but I still have the rubber underneath so not jarring. Now the shifter moves into gear and slots in firmly vs kind of a spring loaded feel they normally have
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 05-31-2010
still not fixed, despite playing with it all day today. There are actually several tiny parts missing from the reassembly.
The problem here is that I disassembled the darn thing a year ago, moved jobs and apartments several times carrying it around in a box, then put it back together when it was no longer fresh in my mind. This was an incredible mistake, should have put it back together then and taken it apart later on.
Water under the bridge, just prolonging it working correctly. Out of time again this weekend.
So, here is one of the parts that was missing-
the transmission can actually be 90% disassembled while bolted to the engine, but still I had to remove a LOT of stuff to get it all apart. After buttoning it all back up again and taking it for a test drive, realized that I failed to put back in a crucial snap ring which was missing also.
You can imagine how angry I was, fortunately I am calm now. This piece fits on the end of the countershaft and locks the central part of the overdrive synchro. Without this, Im guessing that the syncro can slide down a bit and actually disengage the gear. It sure as hell needs to be there, thats for sure. This plus the missing spring are all parts of the greater problem with the overdrive issue.
heres a pic of the snap ring-
Ill have to break it down again next weekend.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 06-01-2010
Good luck hope it all works out! Pics are the way to go when disassembling something for an extended period of time its' nice to have for reference when reassembly
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 06-06-2010
we're in business for real this time!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vZEJbGeuSk
Ok, admission time-
Why this did not work immediately was because I forgot no less than THREE important pieces directly related to the overdrive gear. Actually pretty interesting what was happening, otherwise I probably would not be admitting this on the forum.
When I reassembled the transmission, I forgot (1) a small shift detent mechanism spring that controlled a little swinging lock, (2) the snap ring that holds the overdrive synchro in place on the splines, and (3) a thrust washer behind the overdrive gear between it and the case.
Frankly, I can't believe that it even went into gear at all. When it made that horrific noise, that was actually not the gears grinding, that was the overdrive gear being forced into a division plate in the case. When I would "put" it in overdrive, the central part of the synchro would slide back because of no snap ring, and the lever would push the gear into the aluminum housing, resulting in that god awful noise. This would only happen every now and then, because the swinging lockout without its spring would sometimes prevent even that.
whoops.
All that stuff is in there now, and its working great! Now to finish up the floor of the car and put some miles on it to see how she holds up! More importantly I get to start on adapting my second 717.412 to the 617 to drop in my wagon! heres a few pics of it disassembled on the car, overdrive exposed-
Important thrust washer, you can see the scoring on the case above the lay shaft for overdrive, the cut is not too deep-
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - DeliveryValve - 06-06-2010
(06-06-2010, 04:23 PM)dropnosky we're in business for real this time!
...
That is awesome that is it working! Great job! You got me the bug if I find a 5 speed 190!
.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 06-06-2010
glad to here it's working!!!!
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 06-14-2010
finally got the car itself safe enough to take upstate and performed first real test drive on the tranny, about 330 miles.
Cruising at 70-75 the 616 returned just over 32 mpg with 4 snow tires on it and the stock 3.69 rear end! Very very pleased about that. I may look into a 3.46 diff at some point as well.
the 616 in overdrive was able to handle all the grades as well without downshifting. There were a few places where I though I was playing with the edge of the power band, but in most cases it had plenty of torque.
Need to put a tach on it, there was plenty of power past 75, but I was a little concerned about where I stood RPM wise up there. Speedo is off as well.
#1 issue so far with about 400 miles altogether on the tranny is that when the stick is in overdrive, you cant put a damn CD in the stereo. I cannot believe how irritating that became in such a short period, you have to downshift if you want to change the music, or pop it into neutral. Looks like I have to get an ipod and use the aux in port on the stero.
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - willbhere4u - 06-15-2010
get a top ejecting CD player It should just barley clear the top of the shift knob
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - meareweird - 06-15-2010
Very nice work!!
RE: 617 Franken-5-speed - JB3 - 06-16-2010
(06-15-2010, 03:18 PM)meareweird Very nice work!!
Thanks!
I see you have the same tranny in the original type car. What rear end does your car have? What speedometer does it have? Im trying to figure out if I should try and put in a 190 speedo to match the tranny.