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+--- Thread: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed (/showthread.php?tid=5559)
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 04-19-2015
Is customs balking at the manifold? You already have the pump, right?
Do those differentials come out of the sec or what?
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 04-19-2015
Oh I see it looks like a 240 diff.
Neat that you are refreshing it all, but why go with a lower gearing when you plan more torque and power?
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 04-19-2015
Yea I have the pump, it's in and running. I shipped my intake to Sweden, and the government there is for some reason holding up the show.
With a lightweight flywheel and a big turbo, I'm going to lose low end torque. Shorter gears should make it so I don't miss it too much. I'll have an absolute top speed of 120mph, which I can not ever forsee myself doing. Mostly light city, back country road driving, some highway but I really only do 75 anyway.
Plus, I have a (very eventual) plan to one day see if I can put a 6 speed in the car, the ratios would be perfect.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 04-19-2015
Adding an intercooler to the intake or what?
My head was cracked at #4 and it has taken me awhile to get a replacement as I cannot be bothered to delete the sls. I am doing a lot of Ubering around at the moment. I think I cooked the head back in 2005 and it has taken this long to finally lose compression. Pistons seem OK in terms of play from the top.
I think my pump is in Sweden. Or maybe it is still in the mail. Will have to check.
I am probably going back together stock exhaust and turbo, with a rebuilt Dieselmeken pump, rebuilt kkk turbo and rebuilt head. I can use the old head as a jig for a new exhaust header and turbo setup. I guess it's true what they say - you should never use your daily driver for hot rodding, because you really can't afford to be without it long enough. Maybe I can work out an intercooler setup while I am at it. Definitely going to delete the EGR after cleaning out my intake! Gosh what a mess. Didn't help that the turbo has been leaking oil into it.
My timing chain is reading less than one degree of stretch after 196,000 miles. Is that even possible? You have to squint to convince yourself there is any stretch at all. I have run a lot of Mobil 1 through it, but it had 82,000 when I bought it.
Found a Getrag 5-speed setup. Tempting.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - MFSuper90 - 04-20-2015
So led....
Searching Akron/canton craigslist. I come across a 300D with a hoodstack, he341, and a ridiculous ad description. Was this you? Haha I can't post a link with my phone or I would...
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 04-29-2015
(04-20-2015, 05:03 PM)MFSuper90 So led....
Searching Akron/canton craigslist. I come across a 300D with a hoodstack, he341, and a ridiculous ad description. Was this you? Haha I can't post a link with my phone or I would...
I don't know how I missed this post
The ad is still up, and hell no that wasn't me
What a piece of shit hahaha
http://akroncanton.craigslist.org/cto/4986959341.html
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 04-29-2015
So Edian727 sent me a huge chunk of dirt from Washington, but I chipped away at it carefully and found a 3.69 differential
Cleaned inside and out, gave the inside a good brake cleaner douche. Seems to be in good working order.
New axle seals + hardware.
Next is dropping the subframe.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - Edian727 - 04-29-2015
wow thats a beauty compared to what i sent to you. Glad to see someone using it instead of it sitting in my garage dreaming of a w123. Is your intake finally out of custom's?
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 04-29-2015
It is! Currently at F-tune performance.
Fred is cooking something up that I'm sure will be amazing
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - MFSuper90 - 04-30-2015
That craigslist ad was too funny
What's the reason for going with the 3.69 led?
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - F.R.A.S - 05-01-2015
(04-29-2015, 07:36 PM)led-panzer It is! Currently at F-tune performance.
Fred is cooking something up that I'm sure will be amazing
Hope it will be to your satisfaction
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - DeliveryValve - 05-04-2015
(05-01-2015, 03:03 AM)F.R.A.S(04-29-2015, 07:36 PM)led-panzer It is! Currently at F-tune performance.
Fred is cooking something up that I'm sure will be amazing
Hope it will be to your satisfaction
Can't wait to see it!
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - RobRaziel - 05-12-2015
Awesome car. I just got a 300d myself. It's pretty sweet
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - F.R.A.S - 05-13-2015
The new intake flange for the om617
![[Image: 210381-f97c1406f4ac379427f4c09546839a42.jpg]](http://www1.garaget.org/gallery/images/211/210381/210381-f97c1406f4ac379427f4c09546839a42.jpg)
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 05-13-2015
(05-13-2015, 03:18 AM)F.R.A.S The new intake flange for the om617
Can't wait to see the magic you guys work
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 05-14-2015
Makes more sense than hacking up a w115 intake.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - lgreeley83 - 05-24-2015
Did you buy an intercooler piping kit or anything you can refer me to? I'm getting ready to do the same mount setup. Just bought the intercooler :-).
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 05-25-2015
No piping kit. I think I used 4 2ft 90 degree bends and straight couplers. That will get you into the engine bay. 45degree silicone couplers to connect to the intercooler
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 06-08-2015
Moving slow lately due to a variety of things.
- new subframe bushings
- new control arm bushings
- new axles
- new diff mount
- 3,69 differential
- 18mm rear springs
- Bilstein HD shocks
- metal swaybar links
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - Purplecomputer - 06-12-2015
That's Beautiful
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - waz - 06-12-2015
Now that's funny.
The orange pumpkin with the green parts branching off from it.
That's great!
(Darn, now I'm thinking about Charlie Brown and the "Great Pumpkin.")
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - raysorenson - 06-12-2015
You're going to have to keep that clean. Lime green looks awful dirty.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-25-2015
(04-19-2015, 05:36 AM)led-panzer Yea I have the pump, it's in and running. I shipped my intake to Sweden, and the government there is for some reason holding up the show.
With a lightweight flywheel and a big turbo, I'm going to lose low end torque. Shorter gears should make it so I don't miss it too much. I'll have an absolute top speed of 120mph, which I can not ever forsee myself doing. Mostly light city, back country road driving, some highway but I really only do 75 anyway.
Plus, I have a (very eventual) plan to one day see if I can put a 6 speed in the car, the ratios would be perfect.
Is there any precedent for an om617 burning 160cc of fuel? I think this is going to require a pressure ratio of quite a bit over 4:1, probably more than 5:1. With great intercooling.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - Petar - 06-26-2015
The OM617 burns around 40cc NA (1 Bar atmospheric pressure
That means:
1 Bar - 80 cc
2 Bar - 120 cc
3 Bar - 160 cc (That's around 45 Psi for you imperial guys)
So yeah that's at least 4:1 PR, probably more to account for inefficiencies
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 06-26-2015
The pump is set at 140cc, 160cc is the absolute maximum. I am hardly the first person to run 140cc, even on a 617. 5:1 pressure ratio is just silly. My boost will not exceed 35lbs.
Bench racing and calculations only get you so far
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 06-26-2015
(06-26-2015, 05:20 AM)Petar The OM617 burns around 40cc NA (1 Bar atmospheric pressure
That means:
1 Bar - 80 cc
2 Bar - 120 cc
3 Bar - 160 cc (That's around 45 Psi for you imperial guys)
So yeah that's at least 4:1 PR, probably more to account for inefficiencies
These are arbitrary numbers. The n/a engine may have been set at 40cc, I would bet it's capable of burning near twice that.
There are numerous technical advantages to consider as well. 7.5mm elements, 315 nozzles, big prechambers - all to make injection significantly faster (more power, less smoke, lower EGT's)
Specially made manifolds to make flow as efficient as it can get. A large efficient turbo, a large well placed intercooler, resulting in that 35lbs being near ambient in temperature.
My point being I'm in uncharted waters for the U.S. tuners. Let's get some real dyno numbers and see.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-26-2015
It is way more than 4:1 because BSFC is like 70% and the compressor is 70% max efficient. You cannot even burn 120cc of fuel at 4:1 PR. DENSITY ratio yes 4:1. But not pressure. You are looking at 4atm of boost.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-26-2015
Yes you stand to make some gains on volumetric efficiency, which should help a bit.
Not trying to be a killjoy but I just ran through this and found I would need 4:1 PR to burn 120cc with optimal cooling and compressor efficiency. That was based upon VE of 85%, AFR of 18:1. Density is not an arbitrary number.
You could run more fuel of course, but it sounds smoky and Egt may be a problem.
Of course calculations can be completely wrong also. Look forward to seeing what it can do. But I would put some forged rods in the motor as part of the project. I guess that is my point: if you hope to burn all 140cc of fuel, you are talking amounts of boost known to be potentially problematic on stock rods.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - Keino - 06-26-2015
Im guessing no black smoke means the fuel is burned/consumed.
Im running 1.9bar boost with a Borgwarner S200G on my 617.952 with 7.5mm pump set to aprox 130-140cc im guessing.
No black smoke @ pedal to the metal when boost is at 1.9bar.
My prechambers are stock. Using monark nozzles, no idea of partnumber but was told they would flow better than the stock bosch ones.
I don't think Led will have any problems burning the fuel
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-26-2015
(06-26-2015, 05:20 AM)Petar The OM617 burns around 40cc NA (1 Bar atmospheric pressure
That means:
1 Bar - 80 cc
2 Bar - 120 cc
3 Bar - 160 cc (That's around 45 Psi for you imperial guys)
So yeah that's at least 4:1 PR, probably more to account for inefficiencies
Yes. A lot more.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-26-2015
(06-26-2015, 10:18 AM)Keino Im guessing no black smoke means the fuel is burned/consumed.
Im running 1.9bar boost with a Borgwarner S200G on my 617.952 with 7.5mm pump set to aprox 130-140cc im guessing.
No black smoke @ pedal to the metal when boost is at 1.9bar.
My prechambers are stock. Using monark nozzles, no idea of partnumber but was told they would flow better than the stock bosch ones.
I don't think Led will have any problems burning the fuel
I think your experience shows that he will probably be able to defuel the pump enough to prevent black smoke at full throttle. That is very different from being able to burn a specific quantity of fuel.
If you have to guess what your pump is delivering, then you cannot really say much about how much fuel you are burning. It may be delivering substantially less fuel than you think.
You may also not know how much air mass you are delivering without knowing intake temp. What about power? Any dyno runs?
Not easy to draw any conclusions. But it sounds like a fun car.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - Keino - 06-26-2015
(06-26-2015, 12:33 PM)atypicalguy I think your experience shows that he will probably be able to defuel the pump enough to prevent black smoke at full throttle. That is very different from being able to burn a specific quantity of fuel.
If you have to guess what your pump is delivering, then you cannot really say much about how much fuel you are burning. It may be delivering substantially less fuel than you think.
You may also not know how much air mass you are delivering without knowing intake temp. What about power? Any dyno runs?
Not easy to draw any conclusions. But it sounds like a fun car.
Well, According to dieselmeken the pump delivers aprox 140cc the way he adjusted it. I've been adjusting the screw since then, but adjusted it back a while later ( measures the height of the screw, and got it back to the same position) So should be around 140cc.
No idea about intake temp and no dyno run.
And yes it's a fun car
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-27-2015
(06-26-2015, 01:18 PM)Keino(06-26-2015, 12:33 PM)atypicalguy I think your experience shows that he will probably be able to defuel the pump enough to prevent black smoke at full throttle. That is very different from being able to burn a specific quantity of fuel.
If you have to guess what your pump is delivering, then you cannot really say much about how much fuel you are burning. It may be delivering substantially less fuel than you think.
You may also not know how much air mass you are delivering without knowing intake temp. What about power? Any dyno runs?
Not easy to draw any conclusions. But it sounds like a fun car.
Well, According to dieselmeken the pump delivers aprox 140cc the way he adjusted it. I've been adjusting the screw since then, but adjusted it back a while later ( measures the height of the screw, and got it back to the same position) So should be around 140cc.
No idea about intake temp and no dyno run.
And yes it's a fun car
I will try running some Calc with different air to fuel ratios and see how that affects it. Should only be 1/18 off though, so I'm not sure where all that unburned fuel is going. Perhaps the VE is much higher than 0.85.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-28-2015
Could the actual fuel delivery be reduced by starvation from the lift pump Keino?
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - Keino - 06-29-2015
That I do not know!
I haven't modified the fuellines whatsoever.
Dieselmeken should know I think.
Sorry for going Off topic in here Led.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-29-2015
Could the actual fuel delivery be reduced by starvation from the lift pump Keino?
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 06-29-2015
140cc, a little over twice what the stock elements can provide. 35lbs of intercooled boost, more than twice the amount of stock airflow. I'm not seeing how this is so unbelieveable.
You know it's 140cc per 1000 strokes of the element right? So 0.140cc per injection
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-29-2015
It's unbelievable because if you do the math for a 3L motor with 130cc per injector x 5 cylinders with 3L displacement, and 1.9 bar of boost, with 75% volumetric efficiency, 70% compressor efficiency, 80% intercooler efficiency, you get an air to fuel ratio of 12.9:1, which would mean 12% of your fuel would go out the tailpipe as black smoke, which would be a hell of a lot of smoke. AFR should be 17-18:1 for complete combustion.
The numbers are important in designing a setup to burn a certain fuel amount in a certain motor, which is what both you and I are doing. You need to know how much air you need to burn all the fuel. Then you select a turbo to provide that air amount efficiently at your chosen rpm.
Basically either chemistry and physics are right, or Keino is right and I am making faulty assumptions. But I double checked the math and assumptions with Dougal and bush65 over at 4btswaps. If Keino is correct about boost, and correct about no smoke, then there is no way he is correct about his fueling level.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - MFSuper90 - 06-29-2015
"Complete combustion" yes, maximum power? Probably not.
If it smokes a little too much, just turn the pump down a little?
I see where all these calculations can be handy, but nothingness in real life work theoretically as it should. No two engines are the same, that's why I do minimal calculations and spend my time actually doing it. You just have to make sure you have your stuff in order. Like putting a hx82 on a om617 wouldn't make any sense.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 06-30-2015
I guess you have a point, but the calculations are actually pretty simple and I don't have time to do it twice. There seem to be a lot of setups out there that don't work as intended. I don't just want huge power at the top end, so compounds.
If there is a big range of air fuel ratios that work, that is also interesting. But a car that makes a ton of black smoke anywhere in the rpm range is probably going to cook my head with Egt and not be good for picking kids up at school.
I would just copy that turbo Dave setup but I have no idea from his comments what his final turbo setup looked like. In particular the high pressure turbo.
The proper thing to do for smoke is turn the boost up so you can burn all the fuel. Not turn the fuel down.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - Petar - 06-30-2015
I see your point. There are a couple of things that you don't know:
1- Actual engine VE
How do you know if the om617 has a VE of maybe 85-90 ?
2- Intercooler efficiency
We run really BIG intercoolers here
3- Actual injected fuel quantity
IPs are calibrated against standard test injectors which might flow more than our injectors.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 07-01-2015
Thanks thus is the sort of thing I was looking for.
I will ask Dieselmeken if he can test against standard om617 injectors.
I think 80% intercooling is as efficient as you can get. So I already assumed that.
Volumetric efficiency is hard to pin down. But 2 valve indirect diesels are pretty bad typically and worse at higher rpm. Like 75%. Would be fun to put a mass ow sensor in the intake.
I think there is much less than 120cc being actually delivered. Or people are too busy having fun to pay attention to the smoke in the rear view mirror.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - F.R.A.S - 07-01-2015
The factor you are not considering here (if I haven't missed anything) is the EGT. Stock EGT is way below the maximum power output. To get up there where you have the sweet spot the car is gonna smoke quite bad. So this smokeless thoughts will go down the drain.
Even the new diesels smoke when giving full power. Like the BMW 335d and 535d. Not as stock but stock they are just that. Stock... That's not even close to maximum power.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 07-01-2015
(07-01-2015, 03:00 AM)F.R.A.S The factor you are not considering here (if I haven't missed anything) is the EGT. Stock EGT is way below the maximum power output. To get up there where you have the sweet spot the car is gonna smoke quite bad. So this smokeless thoughts will go down the drain.
Even the new diesels smoke when giving full power. Like the BMW 335d and 535d. Not as stock but stock they are just that. Stock... That's not even close to maximum power.
My wife drives a 2014 toureg 3.0 and it may smoke but if so, it all ends up in the dpf. So I am not sure what you mean that the latest diesels smoke because they all have dpfs.
Anyway for a street car daily driver the smoke is undesirable.
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - Keino - 07-01-2015
(07-01-2015, 12:16 AM)atypicalguy Or people are too busy having fun to pay attention to the smoke in the rear view mirror.
Did actually do that today, and it is hard to tell, but maybe you are right, I might have a small amount of black smoke. Gonna have a friend drive behind me and look some day to make sure.
This is actually good news, means I have to turn up boost
A bit scary at the same time 
Gonna try to get back to Original topic.
Led, what's the status like? Got ur custom intake/exhaust manifold etc yet?
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 07-01-2015
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=996&highlight=oldtimer
The bottom of the first page in that thread discusses Air Fuel ratios, on a 617 no less. According to them, the best power output comes at 13:1, and yes there is smoke.
Settings can be adjusted. When I go to the dyno or track, of course Ill have everything adjusted balls to the wall, smoke be damned. Just cruising around I can have "smoke free" settings, and maybe 50 less HP.
Got the shipping quote today from F.R.A.S, once the payment goes through it will be on its way. Hopefully Ill get it next week or the week after. Once I verify everything fits I'll send out the exhaust manifold and turbine housing for ceramic coating. Then figure out an exhaust and get the clutch/flywheel in (going to my buddy's shop with a lift for that) she'll be ready to roll coal
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - NZScott - 07-02-2015
Fantastic. See if you can beat 341hp
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - atypicalguy - 07-02-2015
Looks like a nice build!
I think a more reasonable thread on diesel tuning would be this one:
http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showthread.php?28841-Diesel-Tuning.-A-F-Ratios-etc.
Good luck with it,
Karl
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - led-panzer - 07-10-2015
Got my big box of parts from Sweden this morning, courtesy of F-tune performance
The flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate all look great. Flywheel weighs 18lbs. Rev Rev Rev.
The manifolds fit great in the chassis. No interference or issues
The issue I do have is the HX35 compressor housing is too big, and hits the hood.
So. I've played with this every way possible and there's no non-hack way to fit it.
Which means I need to find another turbo. Ideally the same flow rates and wheel sizes, just in a smaller package. Looking at maybe a GT3076R.
Thoughts anyone?
RE: led-panzer's 1984 300D 4-speed - Keino - 07-10-2015
Oh shit
What a shame.
You better get another one asap.
I wanna see this beast roll
It's about time.What was the flywheel weight originally?