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+--- Thread: 10mm Element Thread (/showthread.php?tid=716)
RE: 10mm Element Thread - gsxr - 12-20-2010
(12-20-2010, 07:28 PM)mantaheadYou can get 6mm elements for the M pump from Bosch (or, from a used OM606 turbo pump). They'll put out about 50% more fuel than a stock OM602/603 pump with 5.5mm elements. New Bosch elements are ~$100 each, used pumps can sometimes be found for less.(12-19-2010, 02:07 PM)300D50 Yep, MW thin from the same place shred got them.hi,
if i had a mw pump i would be trying these asap, what else is available for the m pump that i can buy now?
No idea what cheap / large Chinese elements may be available for the M pump though.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - mantahead - 12-20-2010
(12-20-2010, 07:42 PM)gsxrhi,(12-20-2010, 07:28 PM)mantaheadYou can get 6mm elements for the M pump from Bosch (or, from a used OM606 turbo pump). They'll put out about 50% more fuel than a stock OM602/603 pump with 5.5mm elements. New Bosch elements are ~$100 each, used pumps can sometimes be found for less.(12-19-2010, 02:07 PM)300D50 Yep, MW thin from the same place shred got them.hi,
if i had a mw pump i would be trying these asap, what else is available for the m pump that i can buy now?
No idea what cheap / large Chinese elements may be available for the M pump though.
i also have om605 turbo pump, has it 5.5 or 6mm elements?
thanks
wayne
RE: 10mm Element Thread - gsxr - 12-20-2010
(12-20-2010, 08:19 PM)mantahead ]hi,Wayne, yes the OM605 turbo pump should also have 6mm elements. You can tell for sure if your pump tag has the full Bosch designation, PES5M60CxxxRSxxx as shown in the photo below. Not all the electronic pumps have that though.
i also have om605 turbo pump, has it 5.5 or 6mm elements?
thanks
wayne
![[Image: 606.912_pump09_tag.jpg]](http://www.w124performance.com/images/OM606_injection/606.912_pump09_tag.jpg)
RE: 10mm Element Thread - 300D50 - 12-20-2010
They only show 5.5mm for the M pump on the site, would likely be a special order.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - mantahead - 12-21-2010
(12-20-2010, 08:58 PM)300D50 They only show 5.5mm for the M pump on the site, would likely be a special order.hi,
my electric pump just has this tag, 011 87009 04585
0400 195 004
605 070 11 01 ER 0048
what horsepower could be got from this pump through remaping?
Have you read the thread on cut delivery valves? What you think about that?
(12-20-2010, 08:45 PM)gsxrhi,(12-20-2010, 08:19 PM)mantahead ]hi,Wayne, yes the OM605 turbo pump should also have 6mm elements. You can tell for sure if your pump tag has the full Bosch designation, PES5M60CxxxRSxxx as shown in the photo below. Not all the electronic pumps have that though.
i also have om605 turbo pump, has it 5.5 or 6mm elements?
thanks
wayne
sorry i sent my pump tag to 300D50 by mistake. It doesnt have the pes
number on this tag.
it reads 011 87009 04585
0400 195 004
605 070 11 01 ER 0048
if this has 6mm elements what power could be made through remaping?
Also what you think about the cut delivery valves?
Gonna run hx35
RE: 10mm Element Thread - winmutt - 12-22-2010
There are a few threads on cut delivery valves here. Nobody has been able to get a smooth idle with them. I don't think its a good starting place for power mods.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - gsxr - 12-22-2010
(12-21-2010, 07:23 PM)mantahead It doesnt have the pesIf you have a 605.960 turbo engine, and get an EPROM chip to max it out, I believe at most you'll get about a 20% power gain. That's about all the range there is left with a stock pump. The larger turbo won't make more power without additional fuel. If you want more than a 20% gain you'll need to get larger elements, and either a custom EPROM chip ($$$), or swap to a mechanical OM602 pump.
number on this tag.
it reads 011 87009 04585
0400 195 004
605 070 11 01 ER 0048
if this has 6mm elements what power could be made through remaping?
Also what you think about the cut delivery valves?
Gonna run hx35
As stated above, I wouldn't mess with delivery valves until someone finds a solution that offers real benefits without any drawbacks. At the moment, I don't see any advantage - just leave them alone.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - DrewGerhan - 03-01-2011
Any news with this????
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 03-02-2011
Unfortunately nothing substantial to report yet. I'm working on some intercoolers right now. I had a long period of not being able to work on anything, but now at least i get a chance to do some welding about once a week or so now.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - 300D50 - 04-04-2011
Just realized you have the wrong part number for the 10mm elements in the first post, looks like the one for new delivery valves.
Any more info?
RE: 10mm Element Thread - RonB - 07-22-2011
(03-15-2010, 12:20 AM)shredator Hello,A general rule of thumb has always that to add power to an engine you must add more fuel . You are on the right track but you also need to burn it properly and that smoke tells me there is too much fuel and it's not being burnt properly because of a lack of air .
Heres a minor update...
got the turbo, etc. bolted back up. Ran it today. At first, I had the timing set to 26btdc, and it nailed like crazy. I guess that I just didnt hear it before over the sound of the exhaust. I eventually set the timing to 15btdc, which is where it is in the following video. It still seems to nail a bit when I go wot from idle. I think that I will retard the timing a bit more, and see if that helps things.
I took it for a short drive right after I shot the video, and it doesnt really seem any faster than it was before. However that may be because of the huge turbo lag. My boost gauge shows nothing until about 3000 rpm and then goes up to 8-10. Is this the normal behavior of the stock turbo? Ill have a better sense of the difference once I get it out on the highway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eryj9oXNhuM
It looks like a lack of air ..too little air = smoke . You may have been right right about the turbo. Are you running a factory exhaust? it would pay to lose it and run a larger diameter pipe the full length. A turbo needs plenty of room to get the exhaust gas moving through it and your lack of boost/lag sounds like a blocked up muffler .
BTW Gus Pfister at Pacific Fuel injection is a real genius when it comes to pumps. he does MFI pumps for us and is known for his wok on modifying MFI pumps on porshes.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - 1911diesel - 05-10-2013
wow really guys, how did THIS thread die? has anyone else bought these plungers recently? i have been staring at them on the site since i found them. i have a spare IP that is begging to be played with.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - OM616 - 05-10-2013
(05-10-2013, 07:58 AM)1911diesel wow really guys, how did THIS thread die? has anyone else bought these plungers recently? i have been staring at them on the site since i found them. i have a spare IP that is begging to be played with.
LOL.... There have been several threads like this....
Problem 1 is that the majority of posters believed that the 10mm elements were way to big and they (being veterans of the sight) managed to convince the masses that they would not work.
Problem 2 is finding a shop that will install the aftermarket elements, and has the ability to adjust a non speck pump. (I do not like how shredator's pump guy adjusted the governor to limit fuel, that will be a problem for him).
Problem 3 is finding a shop that knows what other parts need to be used in combination with the 10mm elements to make them work well in a driver, as apposed to a pulling tractor...
I have built up a MW pump with 10mm elements with success.... learned a lot in the process too....
I am itching to get my calibration machine built so I can do a couple more for members that I have committed to as well as one for my turbo 616.
I think Greazzer might have a line on a shop that might do it for you, but not sure.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Simpler=Better - 05-10-2013
(05-10-2013, 12:40 PM)OM616(05-10-2013, 07:58 AM)1911diesel wow really guys, how did THIS thread die? has anyone else bought these plungers recently? i have been staring at them on the site since i found them. i have a spare IP that is begging to be played with.
LOL.... There have been several threads like this....
Problem 1 is that the majority of posters believed that the 10mm elements were way to big and they (being veterans of the sight) managed to convince the masses that they would not work.
Problem 2 is finding a shop that will install the aftermarket elements, and has the ability to adjust a non speck pump. (I do not like how shredator's pump guy adjusted the governor to limit fuel, that will be a problem for him).
Problem 3 is finding a shop that knows what other parts need to be used in combination with the 10mm elements to make them work well in a driver, as apposed to a pulling tractor...
I have built up a MW pump with 10mm elements with success.... learned a lot in the process too....
I am itching to get my calibration machine built so I can do a couple more for members that I have committed to as well as one for my turbo 616.
I think Greazzer might have a line on a shop that might do it for you, but not sure.
The pump machine seems deceptively simple if you're only working with 1 type of pump:
Test chassis (easy)
Stepper motor & controller (eh, I'll hire out :p)
Injectors & lines
Fuel capture system aka graduated cylinders
Or am I over-simplifying things?
RE: 10mm Element Thread - 1911diesel - 05-10-2013
(05-10-2013, 01:14 PM)Simpler=Better(05-10-2013, 12:40 PM)OM616(05-10-2013, 07:58 AM)1911diesel wow really guys, how did THIS thread die? has anyone else bought these plungers recently? i have been staring at them on the site since i found them. i have a spare IP that is begging to be played with.
LOL.... There have been several threads like this....
Problem 1 is that the majority of posters believed that the 10mm elements were way to big and they (being veterans of the sight) managed to convince the masses that they would not work.
Problem 2 is finding a shop that will install the aftermarket elements, and has the ability to adjust a non speck pump. (I do not like how shredator's pump guy adjusted the governor to limit fuel, that will be a problem for him).
Problem 3 is finding a shop that knows what other parts need to be used in combination with the 10mm elements to make them work well in a driver, as apposed to a pulling tractor...
I have built up a MW pump with 10mm elements with success.... learned a lot in the process too....
I am itching to get my calibration machine built so I can do a couple more for members that I have committed to as well as one for my turbo 616.
I think Greazzer might have a line on a shop that might do it for you, but not sure.
The pump machine seems deceptively simple if you're only working with 1 type of pump:
Test chassis (easy)
Stepper motor & controller (eh, I'll hire out :p)
Injectors & lines
Fuel capture system aka graduated cylinders
Or am I over-simplifying things?
more than once i have thought about building an IP flow bench. you sir are on the right track from the way i see it. you might want some large sized graduated cylinders but yeah i hope it works. 'cause if ya do and you make a thread about it ill pirate it and build one myself. im not a very good engineer, but monkey see monkey do. and im cheap so if i could do all my own injection builds myself i would never come out of the basement or where ever it was.
so base point on the 10mm plungers is they work, but it takes a lot of fiddling to get them to work proper? can you buy new barrels for the plungers from the same company? do the old barrels need machined to work with the larger plungers? am i missing another thread somewhere that has more of this information so i can stop asking questions? i promise i do use the search button, but i have found it is easier to use google to search the desired forum most of the time. and i still didnt come across this one until i was searching cut delivery valves...???
RE: 10mm Element Thread - OM616 - 05-10-2013
(05-10-2013, 01:14 PM)Simpler=Better The pump machine seems deceptively simple if you're only working with 1 type of pump:
Test chassis (easy)
Stepper motor & controller (eh, I'll hire out :p)
Injectors & lines
Fuel capture system aka graduated cylinders
Or am I over-simplifying things?
My limiting factor is time to play with it. I am using a 5HP motor with a variable frequency drive, I have a digital stroke counter made specifically for pump benches, and I also have the master injectors and lines.. I will not be using graduated cylinders however... Too messy and such....
Keep in mind that if it was truly easy everyone saying it is would be selling them lol... Only one other guy that I know of that is making one over at PP, so feel free to show us up !
(05-10-2013, 01:53 PM)1911diesel so base point on the 10mm plungers is they work, but it takes a lot of fiddling to get them to work proper? can you buy new barrels for the plungers from the same company? do the old barrels need machined to work with the larger plungers? am i missing another thread somewhere that has more of this information so i can stop asking questions? i promise i do use the search button, but i have found it is easier to use google to search the desired forum most of the time. and i still didnt come across this one until i was searching cut delivery valves...???
Here is a link to my thread on this subject. http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-2216.html
The barrel and plungers are purchased as a matched assembly. I ordered several different 10mm elements in order to select the best one IMOP, and the latest one I will be using is different from the first ones I used.
I went with the 10mm because they are used quite a bit as apposed to smaller elements that are rarely in stock, but could be made for a min order...
Knowledge of how to adjust the governor is needed and there are some other parts that will make the 10mm elements "play nicely" such as delivery valves and injector nozzles, and even some prechamber mods are needed, IMOP, to really take advantage of the benefits from running larger elements.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 04-13-2014
hey, I'm selling this pump, Shoot me an offer at kalen<dot>dodd<at>gmail.com I dont really check my pm's here.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - NZScott - 01-22-2015
Curiosity has the better of me. Where is this pump now?
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Eric78 - 01-22-2015
What is the benefit of 10mm elements in an OM617 MW pump other than just because you can? I was under the impression that the 617 heads only have enough flow for 250-300hp & you'd see that with 7.5mm elements.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - NZScott - 01-22-2015
(01-22-2015, 02:09 AM)Eric78 What is the benefit of 10mm elements in an OM617 MW pump other than just because you can? I was under the impression that the 617 heads only have enough flow for 250-300hp & you'd see that with 7.5mm elements.
Yes those would do the trick, but 10mm would inject the fuel quicker. That means more time for combustion, which in turn means more power
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Eric78 - 01-22-2015
(01-22-2015, 02:13 AM)NZScottBut it doesn't mean more power if you just don't have the flow to burn it, to get that kind of flow in a 617 isn't cost effective.(01-22-2015, 02:09 AM)Eric78 What is the benefit of 10mm elements in an OM617 MW pump other than just because you can? I was under the impression that the 617 heads only have enough flow for 250-300hp & you'd see that with 7.5mm elements.
Yes those would do the trick, but 10mm would inject the fuel quicker. That means more time for combustion, which in turn means more power
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Edian727 - 01-22-2015
i think the point is quicker injection as he mentioned. you do not have to max out your pump. if you had 10mm elements you would simply dial it back to get the fuel you need. and at the same fuel flow 7.5 will have a longer injection time then the 10's will.
If im not mistaken doesnt shorter injection time help with rpm's also? becuase of the shorter injection time
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Petar - 01-22-2015
The 10mm elements are overkill for a 617 but the point is that they are most commonly available upgrade elements for the MW pump.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - NZScott - 01-23-2015
(01-22-2015, 03:42 AM)Eric78 But it doesn't mean more power if you just don't have the flow to burn it, to get that kind of flow in a 617 isn't cost effective.
Correct me if I'm wrong...I'm far from an expert, I'll try explain a bit better:
If you turned up a stock pump with the 5.5mm elements right to the max, the engine would make black smoke not because the air flow is lacking but because the end of injection is too late meaning the fuel doesn't get burnt properly.
If you had a 10mm element pump delivering the same amount of fuel as before, the end of injection would be earlier, so the fuel gets more chance to burn. More power* comes from the same fuel amount being burnt properly, without smoke.
And of course elements that big will inject a bazillion times more than enough for these engines.
At least that's my theory, in practice it may be completely different
Only looking into 10mm elements as hopefully it's cheaper to get done in this corner of the world than sending a pump away etc.
*your results may vary
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Volker407 - 01-24-2015
(01-23-2015, 07:30 PM)NZScott(01-22-2015, 03:42 AM)Eric78 But it doesn't mean more power if you just don't have the flow to burn it, to get that kind of flow in a 617 isn't cost effective.
Correct me if I'm wrong...I'm far from an expert, I'll try explain a bit better:
If you turned up a stock pump with the 5.5mm elements right to the max, the engine would make black smoke not because the air flow is lacking but because the end of injection is too late meaning the fuel doesn't get burnt properly.
If you had a 10mm element pump delivering the same amount of fuel as before, the end of injection would be earlier, so the fuel gets more chance to burn. More power* comes from the same fuel amount being burnt properly, without smoke.
And of course elements that big will inject a bazillion times more than enough for these engines.
At least that's my theory, in practice it may be completely different
Only looking into 10mm elements as hopefully it's cheaper to get done in this corner of the world than sending a pump away etc.
*your results may vary
Basically you are correct.
But with installing those 10mm elements you change a system where every component was balanced to each other like pump, nozzles, timing, engine flow, compression and so on.
Increasing overall burning efficiency is also important. In the chart you see a rough element calculation.
~55cc is stock specification for OM617A
~66cc is stock specification for OM606A
55cc + 20% fuel = 66cc
OM617A has 125HP stock
OM606A has 177HP stock
125HP + 42% = 177HP
What I want to show, increased burning efficiency can help more than just pumping more fuel around.
Also, at the point when you reach the governor limit with those 10mm elements, the engine will probably still drown of fuel
Try it out, I am curious.
With "hand governor" and original Bosch elements it seems to work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5n8dWikEuo
Gruß
Volker
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Petar - 01-24-2015
You fail to to take into account that the 606 has a cylinder more than the 617...
Also 606 LA fuel spec is i think more like ~61cc at full power.
Knowing the maximum fuel spec is only a part of the picture. It's only fuel on maximum torque point. The 606 retains a lot more of it's torque towards higher RPM than the 617.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - NZScott - 01-25-2015
Yes, the 617 definitely lacks the volumetric efficiency the 606 has. I still prefer to train the old dog new tricks though (I'm not the biggest fan of putting fancy modern engines in old cars)
That video is interesting, I've seen it a few times. I bet the lightish smoke is raw diesel being spewed out if he was putting it to full rack by hand.
So there's at least 3 of the 10mm pumps around, but none have been proven yet.
I need to call up a Bosch pump rebuilder and see what reaction I get!