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+--- Thread: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front (/showthread.php?tid=2169)
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Turbo - 12-27-2012
Jeemu is a very nice Guy, but love secrets
(12-26-2012, 11:22 PM)OM616(12-26-2012, 07:30 PM)Turbo OM616
Do you know if Jeemu posted some numbers of the bigger injectors and the change of the nozzle hole for the prechamber?
As far as posting actual hole sizes, not that I know of. I have spoken with him privately though. He is a very nice fellow. I do not feel at liberty to share specifically what we talked about though, as he has not posted it for a reason I suppose.
They are very competitive with these engines over there so any technical advantage is a benefit, so very little will ever be posted for all to see.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 12-27-2012
(12-26-2012, 06:11 PM)OM616(12-24-2012, 05:42 PM)MFSuper90 How did you go about enlarging the injector seat? And what is the purpose of doing this?
I have an extra head laying around so I think I will try out some modded PC's also. Sounds like a cheap and worthwhile mod
I used my lathe and a boring bar. You do not want to use a drill!!! You will hit the ball!!!
I imagine the larger area helps clear out the injector tip with fresh air. MB says to do this to help reduce smoke, and it is standard on 85 models I think.
I don't have a boring bar small enough to do that, so maybe I'll just skip that step.
Our lathe is a hendley that was used in WWII, good lathe but its much too big for something as small as a prechamber
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 12-27-2012
(12-27-2012, 06:12 PM)MFSuper90(12-26-2012, 06:11 PM)OM616(12-24-2012, 05:42 PM)MFSuper90 How did you go about enlarging the injector seat? And what is the purpose of doing this?
I have an extra head laying around so I think I will try out some modded PC's also. Sounds like a cheap and worthwhile mod
I used my lathe and a boring bar. You do not want to use a drill!!! You will hit the ball!!!
I imagine the larger area helps clear out the injector tip with fresh air. MB says to do this to help reduce smoke, and it is standard on 85 models I think.
I don't have a boring bar small enough to do that, so maybe I'll just skip that step.
Our lathe is a hendley that was used in WWII, good lathe but its much too big for something as small as a prechamber
Oh come on you pansy!!!
I learned on a belt driven lathe that was originally powered by a steam engine, lol. However, if you are not confident using the machine, you are right not to try it.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 12-27-2012
The real problem is my smallest boring bar is like 3/4"
Can't wait to get my crank puller in the mail and try some new chambers!
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MTUPower - 12-30-2012
I'd love to buy a set of altered/enlarged PC's for my wagon with the MYNA pump.... I'd make it worth someone's time!
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 12-30-2012
(12-30-2012, 10:45 AM)MTUPower I'd love to buy a set of altered/enlarged PC's for my wagon with the MYNA pump.... I'd make it worth someone's time!
They would definitely help with the smoking and you would notice the additional power. The thing is getting some good used PC for your engine. New ones are way to expensive.
Do you have the special tools to pull the PCs?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MTUPower - 12-31-2012
(12-30-2012, 01:12 PM)OM616- No but I can go get a whole head from the junkyard and have my indie loan me the tool if I have no other alternative. Interested if I get some PC's? Thanks!(12-30-2012, 10:45 AM)MTUPower I'd love to buy a set of altered/enlarged PC's for my wagon with the MYNA pump.... I'd make it worth someone's time!
They would definitely help with the smoking and you would notice the additional power. The thing is getting some good used PC for your engine. New ones are way to expensive.
Do you have the special tools to pull the PCs?
edit: It might be easier to get the tool and pull them at the yard. Anyone want to loan/rent the tool to me?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 12-31-2012
I got the crank puller today to make my own PC puller tool, Have to weld some stuff up then see if she works
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Simpler=Better - 01-02-2013
(12-31-2012, 12:22 PM)MFSuper90 I got the crank puller today to make my own PC puller tool, Have to weld some stuff up then see if she works
I have a cracked head with 1985 PCs in it riding around in the back seat of my car. Want to lend me that tool once you confirm it works?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 01-02-2013
(01-02-2013, 08:39 AM)Simpler=Better(12-31-2012, 12:22 PM)MFSuper90 I got the crank puller today to make my own PC puller tool, Have to weld some stuff up then see if she works
I have a cracked head with 1985 PCs in it riding around in the back seat of my car. Want to lend me that tool once you confirm it works?
Well got the tool made, looks kinda jerry-rigged, but it works pretty good. Simpler=Better, I'll see what i can do.
Pulled my PC's and the big middle hole measures .132, the smaller outside ones measure .120, and the small ones on the backside of the PC measure .092
I am going to have a local shop open up the seat ID to 14mm and drop the seat 1mm, then ream them out myself.
Any ideas on how much bigger I should go?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Simpler=Better - 01-02-2013
I think that 0.136" was the biggest OM616 has gone so far. Can you try a homemade sandblast/extrude hone to radius the inner edge of the holes?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 01-02-2013
(01-02-2013, 01:01 PM)Simpler=Better I think that 0.136" was the biggest OM616 has gone so far. Can you try a homemade sandblast/extrude hone to radius the inner edge of the holes?
It should be noted that am currently running .136" dia holes on my 616 PCs which have a smaller burn tube ID than the 617a PC.
When I go to install the new injectors, I am going to increase the holes to probably .145"
My goal is to have more hole area than the burn tube has so the pressure head is at the base of the burn tube, which should increase the filling velocity and chamber swirl.
The 617 pc has a larger burn tube ID, so it would require larger holes to match the area % differential I am currently running in my 616.
It is possible to add a hole between the two on the back side, this would allow for overall smaller holes while increasing total area, tapering the inlets sounds like a nice thing too.
If you add an additional hole, do not use a regular drill bit, I would recommend using a M.A. FORD, Hi-Rock drill, it is made for hardened steel and is very rigid, makes a nice clean hole. Or any other straight flute drill for hardened steel for that matter would be better than a helical flute drill.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 01-02-2013
Om616,
Are you making all the holes the same size?
I was think of just taking the stock hole size for each one (except the small drain hole at the tip) and increasing them by say, maybe .01?
So it would be like one .142 hole, two .130, and two .100?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 01-02-2013
(01-02-2013, 02:30 PM)MFSuper90 Om616,
Are you making all the holes the same size?
I was think of just taking the stock hole size for each one (except the small drain hole at the tip) and increasing them by say, maybe .01?
So it would be like one .142 hole, two .130, and two .100?
LOL.... I opened them all up the same, but do what you feel comfortable with, anything that helps the PC breath better will help. I did not taper or bevel the holes on mine, so I will add that next time.
A member posted that all he did was taper the holes and saw a benefit. Now that you have the tools to pull the PCs, you can always increase them later if you want.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 01-02-2013
(01-02-2013, 04:30 PM)OM616(01-02-2013, 02:30 PM)MFSuper90 Om616,
Are you making all the holes the same size?
I was think of just taking the stock hole size for each one (except the small drain hole at the tip) and increasing them by say, maybe .01?
So it would be like one .142 hole, two .130, and two .100?
LOL.... I opened them all up the same, but do what you feel comfortable with, anything that helps the PC breath better will help. I did not taper or bevel the holes on mine, so I will add that next time.
A member posted that all he did was taper the holes and saw a benefit. Now that you have the tools to pull the PCs, you can always increase them later if you want.
Hmmm. Decisions, Decisions
I think I will leave them in the same size ratio (one big surround by two smaller) and open the back holes up some too. There has to be some reason why Mercedes didn't leave them all the same size.
And as you said, I can always go bigger
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 01-02-2013
(01-02-2013, 04:38 PM)MFSuper90 Hmmm. Decisions, Decisions
I think I will leave them in the same size ratio (one big surround by two smaller) and open the back holes up some too. There has to be some reason why Mercedes didn't leave them all the same size.
And as you said, I can always go bigger
I’m sure MB was worried about emissions, some complex post ignition swirl in the cylinder, or who knows what. If you look a swirl chamber head like a VW has, it only has one big hole. Who knows what MB was thinking.
MB changed the holes size a couple of times up and down, who knows what complex issues the engineers were creating so they could solve them.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ronnie - 01-02-2013
I machined the 616 heads to fit the 617a pc's and opened them .010 all except the tiny one on the bottom. which is about .145 for the largest one. seems even bigger would be fine but have not tryed it.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MTUPower - 01-02-2013
(12-31-2012, 12:22 PM)MFSuper90 I got the crank puller today to make my own PC puller tool, Have to weld some stuff up then see if she works
Got a picture of your tool?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - larsalan - 01-02-2013
(01-02-2013, 09:49 PM)MTUPower Got a picture of your tool?
where is this thread headed?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 01-03-2013
(01-02-2013, 10:18 PM)larsalan(01-02-2013, 09:49 PM)MTUPower Got a picture of your tool?
where is this thread headed?
I little bit of everywhere
I don't really have anyway to upload pics to my computer, or I don't know how
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Simpler=Better - 01-03-2013
wutwut!?!?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 01-03-2013
(01-03-2013, 03:48 PM)Simpler=Better wutwut!?!?
well would you look at that
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - lpumb3 - 01-23-2013
how would one determine if he has good or bad PCs? cracks , wHite metal ?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 01-23-2013
(01-23-2013, 05:42 PM)lpumb3 how would one determine if he has good or bad PCs? cracks , wHite metal ?
Sure indications:
![[Image: prechamber1.jpg]](http://winmutt.com/images/benz/w123%20maintentance/om617%20broken%20prechamber/prechamber1.jpg)
![[Image: prechamber2.jpg]](http://winmutt.com/images/benz/w123%20maintentance/om617%20broken%20prechamber/prechamber2.jpg)
![[Image: prechamber3.jpg]](http://winmutt.com/images/benz/w123%20maintentance/om617%20broken%20prechamber/prechamber3.jpg)
As you can kind of see in #2, the atomizer is gone as well. Probably what made the whole in the bottom...
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 01-25-2013
The tools I made are not as pretty as yours...
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 01-25-2013
(01-25-2013, 05:03 PM)OM616 The tools I made are not as pretty as yours...
Now your just showing off
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 01-26-2013
What reamers are you guys using to open up the holes? I am trying to decide what to buy...
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ronnie - 01-26-2013
solid carbide
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 01-27-2013
(01-26-2013, 08:39 PM)ronnie solid carbide
But what size, or sizes?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Simpler=Better - 01-27-2013
A solid carbide boring bar for the center, and some nice .140 (?) diam carbide reamers for the holes
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 01-28-2013
I just saw this link over on PP by gxsr. This is a tool to remove the lock ring to remove the PC.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Benz-Pre-Combustion-Chamber-Ring-Removal-Tool-/320735030382
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ronnie - 01-28-2013
Think I did .145 for the center hole and .135 for the ones on each side of that. the tiny one on the bottom I did nothing, and it seems .100 for the others. this is all inchs by the way, no metric here....
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 01-29-2013
I am currently running .136 dia on all 5 holes in my 616 turbo.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 01-30-2013
Help me out here, maybe I am just having a brain fart.
You use reamers to open up the holes, so do you get a set of them and just keep going up one size at a time? or get a drill bit, drill it, then clean it up with a reamer?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - lpumb3 - 01-30-2013
(01-23-2013, 06:03 PM)winmutt(01-23-2013, 05:42 PM)lpumb3 how would one determine if he has good or bad PCs? cracks , wHite metal ?
Sure indications:
As you can kind of see in #2, the atomizer is gone as well. Probably what made the whole in the bottom...
thanks for the pics ,
question should i get these out of the head before i remove it ? will in be a pita if i pull the head off now and set it asside to deal with later when i have the $ for a tool ?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ConnClark - 02-01-2013
Has anybody done a dyno test on this yet or are we still in the realm of power increases using HHO ?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - Simpler=Better - 02-01-2013
(02-01-2013, 02:48 PM)ConnClark Has anybody done a dyno test on this yet or are we still in the realm of power increases using HHO ?
If anyone near Canton, NY and has a W123 and two sets of PCs/crush washers I can get a dyno run scheduled.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-01-2013
AFAIK this is only a mod for when you are pushing too much fuel.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - MFSuper90 - 02-01-2013
(02-01-2013, 04:57 PM)winmutt AFAIK this is only a mod for when you are pushing too much fuel.
I'm not pushing to much fuel, I am just doing it for the fun of it
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 02-01-2013
(02-01-2013, 04:57 PM)winmutt AFAIK this is only a mod for when you are pushing too much fuel.
And it is perfectly ok for you to keep thinking that! lol
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - ronnie - 02-01-2013
I have not dyno'd but did do some hill climb tests,and it did show a noticeable improvement. I am pushing a good bit of fuel, or at least as much as the stock pump can do. However even at less fueling this mod helped, so have to say I think it should be done as one of the basic things to do when starting to build for performance.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - sassparilla_kid - 02-03-2013
The only problem is that hardly anybody has the pullers needed to get the precups out
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - larsalan - 02-03-2013
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(01-28-2013, 12:51 PM)OM616 I just saw this link over on PP by gxsr. This is a tool to remove the lock ring to remove the PC.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Benz-Pre-Combustion-Chamber-Ring-Removal-Tool-/320735030382
Go on and get one
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - sassparilla_kid - 02-03-2013
Isn't there a slide hammer puller thing needed also to get the chamber out? Or do you just remove the collar nut holding it in and then it comes out?
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - larsalan - 02-03-2013
(12-07-2012, 05:00 AM)Captain America(12-07-2012, 01:50 AM)sassparilla_kid I may have already asked this, or it might be somewhere earlier in the thread, but how difficult is it to pull pre-chambers?
Need special tools.
http://www.mercedessource.com/node/8479
And
http://www.mercedessource.com/node/8478
as seen in Post: #242
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - winmutt - 02-04-2013
Or just ask. I rent the collar tool for a pack of beer,deposit and shipping.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - poleshady - 06-05-2013
(01-03-2013, 03:48 PM)Simpler=Better wutwut!?!?
i made something similar to this, 3 of the retaining rings came out, but two were already damaged and just got worse... so they arent coming out.. so i dont know what to do. get a huge easy out? can you buy replacement rings? i cant imagine it would be wise to go ahead and only do 3 of the 5 pre chambers..
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 06-05-2013
(06-05-2013, 06:23 PM)poleshady i made something similar to this, 3 of the retaining rings came out, but two were already damaged and just got worse... so they arent coming out.. so i dont know what to do. get a huge easy out? can you buy replacement rings? i cant imagine it would be wise to go ahead and only do 3 of the 5 pre chambers..
Does your collar tool thread into the collar to secure it to the collar?
If you look at post 275, (I think), you will see a pic of the tools I made. The collar socket is held tight against the collar with a bolt that is inside the socket, this keeps the socket from popping off and rolling the edges of the collar.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - poleshady - 06-05-2013
(06-05-2013, 06:32 PM)OM616(06-05-2013, 06:23 PM)poleshady i made something similar to this, 3 of the retaining rings came out, but two were already damaged and just got worse... so they arent coming out.. so i dont know what to do. get a huge easy out? can you buy replacement rings? i cant imagine it would be wise to go ahead and only do 3 of the 5 pre chambers..
Does your collar tool thread into the collar to secure it to the collar?
If you look at post 275, (I think), you will see a pic of the tools I made. The collar socket is held tight against the collar with a bolt that is inside the socket, this keeps the socket from popping off and rolling the edges of the collar.
yeah it threads into the pre chamber not the collar itself. it cut into and took out chunks of the ring, didnt slip out
im on the phoe with the dealership now to see if they can find the part...doesnt sound promising.
luckily they can order them, 8 bucks each, now i need to find an easy out big enough.
RE: Prechamber Mod "Flame" Front - OM616 - 06-05-2013
(06-05-2013, 06:34 PM)poleshady yeah it threads into the pre chamber not the collar itself. it cut into and took out chunks of the ring, didnt slip out
im on the phoe with the dealership now to see if they can find the part...doesnt sound promising.
luckily they can order them, 8 bucks each, now i need to find an easy out big enough.
If the socket is threaded into the PC it will not allow the ring to unscrew. The socket must use the threads in the ring that the injector uses, they are very coarse and the PC threads are very fine. The Fine PC threads are used to pull the PC once the ring is removed.
The Rings are available for not much money so don't worry about that. You need to make a better tool that threads into the collar, not the PC.