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+--- Thread: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project (/showthread.php?tid=1179)
1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 02-28-2010
OK, so I've been working on this project for about a year and a half now and I thought I'd document it here.
Engine goals:
400 smoke free HP!
Modified stock electronically controlled IP with 7.5mm elements and modified delivery valves.
Custom injector nozzles.
Holset HX40 turbo feeding an Eaton M90 Supercharger.
Possible air to water intercooler combined with stock air to air intercooler.
EGR electrically bypassed and replaced with open tube.
Transmission goals:
Possible ZF6 manual transmission.
Suspension goals:
Performance shocks, bushings and springs.
Here's the baseline dyno run:
![[Image: dyno.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/dyno.jpg)
Intake diagram:
![[Image: MBInduction.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/MBInduction.jpg)
Initial supercharger fitting:
![[Image: 04b7a2a6.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/04b7a2a6.jpg)
Initial turbocharger fitting:
![[Image: 4961e2c4.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/4961e2c4.jpg)
Supercharger idler pulley mount:
![[Image: IMG_4079.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/IMG_4079.jpg)
Belt routing:
![[Image: pulleys2-1.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/pulleys2-1.jpg)
More to come...
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - Rudolf_Diesel - 02-28-2010
Can't wait to see how you do yours! Keep up the good work...
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 02-28-2010
Thanks, you too!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - jagoras - 02-28-2010
wow looks great, keep up the good work!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 03-02-2010
Stuff I did this weekend...
SC is mounted with prototype mount and I used a piece of bailing wire to measure for the new belt:
![[Image: IMG_4264.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/IMG_4264.jpg)
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - ForcedInduction - 03-02-2010
Good old bailin' wire. I laugh when people try to call it "mechanics wire".
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - yankneck696 - 03-02-2010
I personally would put one of the stages of intercooling between the TC & SC. Since you're going all funky, you can use a dual zone air conditioning compressor (think SUV's & minivans) to cool seperate circuts of water & run both intercoolers A/W. I know it's more belt changes, but just think about it.
Ed
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 03-09-2010
I wish I had the room for more options when placing the components. I'm pretty much stuck with the design as is. Believe me, I've been working on this for so long that I've pretty much analyzed it to the nth degree.
Not that the comments aren't appreciated...
So, tonight I fitted the new belt. Everything works well and alignment and clearance seems adequate.
I figured, "what the hell", so I gave it a spin and it started up. Everything seems to operate as planned with a couple issues: One, is that the mount will have to be re-designed. The diesel power delivery is VERY rough and it shakes the crap out of everything. Also, the torque turning the supercharger changes with RPM and the whole mount flexes back and forth when the engine revs up and down.
Finally, the SOUND! At idle, it purrs with a noise similar to an electric fan but anything above that swells into an annoying shriek that sounds much like a Formula One car. This might be cool at a track but it'll get downright agrivating before long under normal operating conditions.
Now granted, the intake is still open but I'll have to seriously consider some noise reduction measures as part of the design now. I only revved it to about 4000 RPM before I lost my nerve. It really IS that loud!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - shredator - 03-15-2010
What will your "anti-bark" valve consist of? I was under the impression that diesels didn't really need those because there is no throttle. How will it be controlled?
your car is gonna be rad
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 03-17-2010
You'd think it would be the case that a diesel would not have a problem with this as you say, since there's no throttle. My truck has a huge blow back every time I shift gears at full throttle or about 25PSI. It sounds like a big sneeze.
When I was researching a turbo, I liked the performance of the HX40 but was told that the shaft was somewhat tender under shock loads at higher boost levels. To protect it, I came up with a relief valve that consists of a simple butterfly bypass that will pop open either in response to a cable attached to the throttle or my means of an electric switch and solenoid.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 03-29-2010
Update:
Injectors are currently out of the car getting new nozzles.
DV's getting updated and new viton O-rings installed.
Working on replacing the EGR with a straight tube.
Will probably powder coat the intake and valve cover while I have all the injection lines off.
(That should be good for about 10 HP...
)
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - willbhere4u - 03-29-2010
superchargers do scream if there is no intake tube on them the noise is the air going in to them not out! a long tube to your air filter should quiet it up a bit
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - ForcedInduction - 03-29-2010
(03-29-2010, 09:51 AM)willbhere4u a long tube to your air filter should quiet it up a bit
The turbo will be blowing into its intake.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - willbhere4u - 03-29-2010
That should do the trick!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 04-24-2010
Tiny update on this:
Sean Watts and I spent 4 hours today farting around with the new nozzles I got from tomnik. The pintles have about twice the area of the stock ones so they lift much easier. Most of the shims ended up being around 2 mm. I'll edit this post later with the pop pressures and shim thicknesses if anyone's interested.
Next step will be to paint the valve cover while everything's off if it.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - tomnik - 04-25-2010
What pop pressure do you intend to set up?
Experience over here on a 603a stock showed best results at 135 bar. Before it was 155 bar, but he did not compensate with the full load screw and fuel delivery and noise did not satisfy him.
At 135 he was very happy with low end power, no smoke and less consumption.
Tom
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 04-25-2010
Hi Tom,
These are the final settings:
1. 146.5 bar / 2125 PSI
2. 148.6 bar / 2155 PSI
3. 148.6 bar / 2155 PSI
4. 148.9 bar / 2160 PSI
5. 148.6 bar / 2155 PSI
6. 145.6 bar / 2112 PSI
The spray pattern is excellent and the pop is very crisp. I'm looking forward to getting them installed to try them out!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - Tymbrymi - 04-26-2010
(04-25-2010, 08:14 PM)E300TSC The spray pattern is excellent and the pop is very crisp. I'm looking forward to getting them installed to try them out!
Tomnik, are these custom designed nozzles or just ones you've found from a reputable source?
Hope they work well E300TSC!!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - tomnik - 04-26-2010
you know that the 261 and others have a flat on the needle. Those have 3 flats and were designed for stationary veggie engines to reduce carbon build up. Originally they come from Italy but exclusively available in Germany.
My friend had them installed in his 603a at 135 bar pop pressure and he liked them.
Tom
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - gsxr - 04-27-2010
Tom, what do you think about the 314 nozzles compared to the 265 nozzles? I have a set of the 314's in my 603 and they seem to work great.
![[Image: nozzles_265_vs_314.jpg]](http://www.w124performance.com/docs/Bosch/nozzles_265_vs_314.jpg)
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - tomnik - 04-27-2010
to be honest I have never tried the 314 but people say that they are happy with them. Nozzles are like religion, everybody has his own interpretation of what is good.
Tom
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 05-04-2010
I finally installed the injectors tonight and then promptly killed the battery trying to get the system primed. It's on the charger now and I'll try again tomorrow.
One question: WIS says that the injector torque is 40N/M or 30#/ft. Is this right? It seems awfully loose to me. Can anyone verify?
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - tomnik - 05-04-2010
I only know that for the 601-603 engines the injectors get 70-80 Nm.
But you can check by taking out one injector and have a look at the heat protection shield if it is bent (contact with the outer diameter of the injector).
Tom
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - jeemu - 05-05-2010
Hi. Yes 605/606 injectors must tight at 40nm. Dont go tighter.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 05-06-2010
Thanks for the information. I believe I need a more delicate torque wrench. The one I have does not do a good job at lower torque settings.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 05-18-2010
OK, update: I have the exhaust manifold and turbo back off. Have to repair a broken stud from a previous owner.
Now that I have the supercharger in about 95% of it's final position, I'll re-evaluate the turbo mounting and exhaust plumbing. SC mount is being revised as well and I'll be ordering the new aluminum plate this week some time.
On the injection side, I have all the injectors back in and have test run it. It seems really loud now compared to before when idling. Not nailing, just a regular injection noise, kind of like a 603. Very smooth and quiet when it's revved up though.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - gsxr - 05-18-2010
New nozzles can be really loud at idle for a few hundred (or few thousand) miles until they break in. BT, DT. If that's what's going on, they should quiet down eventually.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - Tymbrymi - 05-19-2010
(05-18-2010, 08:54 AM)gsxr New nozzles can be really loud at idle for a few hundred (or few thousand) miles until they break in. BT, DT. If that's what's going on, they should quiet down eventually.
I've had this experience as well... also with delivery valves.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 05-20-2010
Spent about 4 hours today working on this. At long last, I've got the final mounting location for the turbo. It's amazing how much space you can appear to have and how fast it gets used up with a bigass turbo.
After scooting and twisting and shifting over and over, I've decided that the best thing to do is to move the engine mount 4" forward. There is an extra set of mounting holes on the engine and it'll be fairly easy to fab up a new lower mount. This move will give me all the room I need to properly mount the turbo and give clearance for all the fittings.
The next step will be to purchase all of the required raw metals and begin cutting the pieces of the exhaust manifold and other mounts. I'll also turn over the manifold plate to the fabricator for the CNC plasma cutting.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 06-21-2010
Raw materials in now. Time to get to desigining the final exhaust setup.
Injection-wise, the engine is significantly quieter now at idle. I have put close to 600 miles on the new injectors and indeed, they are working much better. Initial observations suggest an improvement in fuel economy - ~150 miles per quarter tank as opposed to ~125 before the injector swap.
The engine runs sliky smooth at higher RPM's but there are some remaining nagging problems:
Power delivery seems a little "soft" compared to before. Possibly higher pop pressure retarding the injection?
More smoke at idle and under hard acceleration. Again, retarded injection timing?
Lots of ignition knock in a narrow band between 900 and 1300 RPM. Above or below that is dead quiet except for a persistant "tack, tack, tack" from #5 at idle. This noise was there with the previous injectors as well and I confirmed the cylinder with the crack test.
Possibly something with the delivery valves or pump element? I looked into the pre-chamber and the ball was in place.
Ideas?
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - tomnik - 06-21-2010
Do you have the possibility to check dynamic begin of spray? (with piezo and strope lamp).
Completely different source of nailing at and near idle is the fuel pump.
On my 603a a well working fuel pump eliminated also idle smoke.
Try this first before you touch injectors and IP.
Tom
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - gsxr - 06-22-2010
Tom, do you mean the fuel lift pump? The little one on the side of the IP? That can make a real difference??!!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - tomnik - 06-22-2010
(06-22-2010, 08:59 AM)gsxr Tom, do you mean the fuel lift pump? The little one on the side of the IP? That can make a real difference??!!
Yes. When I got my 603a it smoked at idle and was nailing until 1000-1200 rpm. I changed nearly everything without any difference. The last thing I did was to replace the lift pump. Manually operated outside the car already showed a different sound. Nailing and idle smoke were completely solved.
I posted this on a German forum to help a guy with the same issues.
After many bad comments on my answer the guy send me a PM and told me that the lift pump was the problem...
I think it's not completely filled elements due to low inner fuel pressure at low rpm.
It is very easy to change the lift pump instead of injectors or even IPs.
Tom
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - ForcedInduction - 06-22-2010
If its not providing enough pressure at idle it will starve the engine when you try to accelerate, you'd get a "mushy pedal" response.
Changing the lift pump would replace the check valves as well.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 06-22-2010
Thanks for the responses. I priced a new pump today and it's about $125. Not too bad I guess. Will the stock pump supply the 400HP fuel needs?
No sense replacing it with the stock pump if I have to get something bigger later.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - ForcedInduction - 06-22-2010
AFAIK, there is no other pump to replace it with. Worst case scenario you can get an electric pump from a Powerstroke or something and delete the mechanical pump completely. I've been thinking of doing it just for eliminating the lift pump's pulses, it would certainly make bleeding the system easier!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - Captain America - 06-23-2010
(06-22-2010, 03:44 PM)ForcedInduction If its not providing enough pressure at idle it will starve the engine when you try to accelerate, you'd get a "mushy pedal" response.
Changing the lift pump would replace the check valves as well.
Mushy peddle meaning a bog off the line like you push the peddle and nothing happens for a second or two? Guess I should check my pressure...
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 06-23-2010
When I talk about "soft" response to the throttle, I'm just referring to a SOTP feeling that I'm not getting quite the return in acceleration for input to the pedal as I'm used to. Granted, I didn't drive the car for a couple months so I could be imagining it. Top end acceleration is still strong it's just the "off idle" clatter and lack of response that's gotten my attention.
So, the plot thickens: I just got back from dealing with having run the car out of fuel. Lukily I was at work and it died in the parking circle rather than on the interstate.
Here's a little history:
A couple months ago, the car ran out of fuel while I was driving on the highway to work. This had never happened before and it really caught me by surprise since the gauge still registered about 1/8th full. Normally, I get about 50 miles more out of the tank at this point. I got it towed since I thought it was a more serious problem but after I found nothing wrong, I went back to driving it as usual, every day.
Fast forward to this morning. The gauge was about the same reading as before and as I drove along, I could feel this very gentle surging. Again, this caught my attention since the car is normally rock solid. It's also dead quiet inside so I have to pay close attention to feelings rather than noises.
Sure enough, It coughed and died shortly after pulling into the driveway at work and I nursed it into a safe spot where I could leave it for a while.
So, going over the details:
1. I see no bubbles in the fuel lines or leaks so it's not an air problem.
2. Since I'm having the low RPM clatter, could it be the weak pump causing both problems?
3. I have never replaced/cleaned the fuel strainer. Could it be that no fuel can be pulled in once the level reaches a certain point?
It seems logical that the problems are interrelated. I'd like to try an electric pump but I need to make sure the basic systems are functioning properly first. Maybe later, if the stock systems prove to be inadequate.
Thoughts?
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - tomnik - 06-23-2010
2. in combination with 3. makes sense to me.
Can you measure the vac (pressure) just before the lift pump coming from the tank?
High vac= restriction from the tank
low vac= restriction from the tank AND weak lift pump.
Regarding your idle nailing and what you describe I tend to weak lift pump.
Fuel gauge, sender unit in the tank might be on top and not related to the issues.
Tom
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 06-23-2010
Thanks Tom,
I'll do a vacuum test on the fuel feed from the tank.
-Evan
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - gsxr - 06-24-2010
If the car ran out of fuel at an indicated 1/8 tank, I'd suspect the supply & return hoses were connected backwards at the frame rail... on the older cars (124, 126, etc) it is very easy to get these reversed. Not sure if the 210 is the same but it's worth checking into...
Tom, great info about the lift pump - thanks for sharing!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 07-12-2010
Here are the vacuum readings for this tank:
Full Tank
Idle: 1", Full throttle: 3"
1/8 Tank
Idle: 2.5", Full throttle: 5"
I don't know what these readings mean but the engine runs much quieter with a full tank.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - willbhere4u - 07-12-2010
Check to see if the system is venting? IE if you pull off the gas cap and it sucks in a lot of air its probably got an issue
as it sucks the fuel out of the tank air ha to fill the void if not it creates a suction on the tank and remaining fuel!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 07-13-2010
Venting is OK, no giant sucking sound from the cap...
I do notice that if I introduce air into the system, the bubbles surge through the clear lines very quickly. So, the fuel is moving very well.I'm wondering now, it the regulator spring has weakened and it's not generating enough pressure.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - jeemu - 07-13-2010
(07-13-2010, 05:17 AM)E300TSC Venting is OK, no giant sucking sound from the cap...Original lift pump is not good for over 150/6cyl. As so when use high rpm
I'm wondering now, it the regulator spring has weakened and it's not generating enough pressure.
as we use. Original fuel lines is also one thing that what are upgrade list when want BIG power.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 08-15-2010
Made great progress today getting the engine running perfectly again at stock specs.
1. I replaced 2 injection lines that were damaged by a previous owner/mechanic having over tightened them causing minor leakage.
2. I replaced all the rubber pads and plastic clips holding the hard lines.
3. I advanced the injection timing. Result: MUCH quieter idle and NO clatter burst when accelerating between 1100 and 1400 RPM.
4. Re-torqued #5 delivery valve holder. Result: Eliminated #5 cylinder "nailing".
On the road, power delivery is much crisper and engine noise and vibration are greatly reduced. I'm extremely happy with the way the engine is running now and HEARTILY endorse the new injection nozzles I got from Tomnik! Thanks!
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 08-21-2010
Worked on the new SC mounting plate today. It uses a different mounting strategy that I think will be more solid. It's also simpler than the old one and stiffer.
There will eventually be a cover of some sort over the SC that will also bridge the gap to the valve cover.
![[Image: P6200082.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/P6200082.jpg)
![[Image: P6200083.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/P6200083.jpg)
I will ultimately have to shave or angle the top of the plate as it doesn't completely clear the hood pad.
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - Artem - 08-29-2010
whats new?
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - E300TSC - 09-04-2010
More new stuff today:
I did some more shaping of the mounting plate and it's now about 90% done. It's only rough cut so I have to go back and mill the edges to square them up. This mount is much stronger than the other one and I think it'll ultimately look better when finished.
I also did a test fit of the SC and tomorrow I'll start measuring to fab up the outlet funnel.
![[Image: P9040083.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/P9040083.jpg)
![[Image: P9040082.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/P9040082.jpg)
![[Image: P9040084.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Mercedes/P9040084.jpg)
RE: 1998 E300 W210 Superturbo Project - winmutt - 09-07-2010
Nothing like a 3day holiday to get things done
Looks good.