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+--- Thread: 10.0 mm plungers (/showthread.php?tid=119)
10.0 mm plungers - tantank79 - 05-17-2008
In the past there had been some talk of sourcing larger plungers for the IP, but it seemed there was still some confusion as to their source. After learning the pump tag code based on the info given here:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.rockymountainmoggers.com/dieselspritzenundsquirtenstuff.html">http://www.rockymountainmoggers.com/die ... stuff.html</a><!-- m -->
and a lot of google searching I learned that many medium duty trucks and some farm implements also used the MW pump. So the hunt was on.
A trip to the local truck salvage yard yesterday netted a find of two sets of 6, 10.0 mm plungers. Both sets were located in what I believe to be mid 80's to mid 90's International Harvester 1700 series trucks with the DT 466 inline 6 cylinder engine. The pump tags on both trucks began with this code: PES6MW100
Thought ya'll might find this helpful. Happy hunting.
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - winmutt - 05-17-2008
10mm? wow. Let us know how they work out.
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 05-17-2008
That a LOT of fuel! I'm not sure if the RW gov can handle plungers that huge. Brandon on the *chuman forum was planning on trying them but I haven't seen any results yet.
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - Telecommbrkr - 05-17-2008
I don't have my CD's with me right now, but what do these plungers look like?
And, If one was willing to spend the money, could these plungers be fabricated/machined?
Does anyone know if, and what sizes of all the possible plungers for the MW IP that exist but just waiting for us to find the part #'s
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - tantank79 - 05-18-2008
I should have clarified that I didn't actually purchase these, just found them and thought I would pass on the source info. However, I have been seriously considering trying to build a pump with them since learning of their existence.
So I'm curious, why do you guys think the pump might not be able to handle plungers this large. I have heard others say the engine may not idle smoothly, which I could care less about. Other than this, what problems do you think may occur?
As far as size and shape, they look to be the same size as our plungers. These had the same two stud, rectangular-ish mounting plate. The flange on this mounting plate looked like it might be a little thicker. If so, what kind of problems would that cause?
Other applications seem to be out there but haven't been found yet. Searching around on Google will net several parts lists from Chinese manufacturers, but I would count them out as unreliable. For the MW pump I have seen sizes listed as 5.5, 8, 9, 10, and 21 mm (although that last one seems huge and could be a typo). These 10mm units are the only ones I have been able to find a North American vehicle source for.
So I guess I'm ultimately looking for some advice. Do you guys think it would be unwise to purchase these units? The yard owner didn't want to pull parts from the injection pump but offered the whole pump (in unknown condition) for $250. I don't know a whole lot about buying medium duty truck parts. Is that reasonable?
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - ForcedInduction - 05-18-2008
Myna's 7mm plungers are known to be good for 500hp.
Lets say, for example, that the 7mm plungers can move 76cc of fuel per stroke (5mm stroke). The 10mm would move 157cc with the same stroke. Thats about 2x the fuel or about 1000hp! (That 21mm plunger would move 692cc or 9x the fuel!)
Thats why the RW governor would have a hard time controlling it. The pump would spend most of its life running in the lower 10% of its rack travel and be very sensitive. Unless its a dedicated race engine it would have horrible drivability manners and one hell of a smoker!
Still, I'd like to be proven wrong on that idea.
$250 is reasonable for a used parts pump.
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - GREASY_BEAST - 05-19-2008
another concern with using 10mm plungers, besides the possibility that the governor might not be able to control them, is that they present a considerable stress increase on the camshaft inside the IP. If the camshaft in the mercedes MW is the same as that in the navistar MW, then that probably doesn't matter. It would definitely be something to look at. If you have the means to swap the parts and have the pump balanced, by all means try it!!! It would be really cool to see how/if it works.
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - HoleshotHolset - 05-19-2008
Good find!
(FWIW: The DT466 is an extremely popular and powerful engine in the tractor pulling circuit...)
$250 for a used pump in 'as-is' condition is pretty good.
Too bad that DT466 is an I6 - you could have swapped your governor section onto that pump, run it on the pump bench and call it a day (oversimplified of course...). I'd imagine the camshaft would be different as well - there's no way you could luck out so well in that regard...but it is possible. The MB pumps I've seen have splined input shafts...the other options would be tapered (smooth) or tapered + keyed.
Did that MW out of the DT466 have the same mounting flange that the MB IPs have?
The A and P-series pumps I've dealth with have a 4-bolt flange...
Beers,
Matt
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - bgkast - 05-19-2008
tantank79 Searching around on Google will net several parts lists from Chinese manufacturers, but I would count them out as unreliable. For the MW pump I have seen sizes listed as 5.5, 8, 9, 10, and 21 mm (although that last one seems huge and could be a typo). These 10mm units are the only ones I have been able to find a North American vehicle source for.
We need some of those 8 mm valves
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - tantank79 - 05-27-2008
Didn't get to look at the input style on the camshaft since the pump was still bolted onto the truck. Also, since I was focused on the elements, I didn't pay much attention to the mounting flange. If I recall correctly it was the normal flat/slotted/rotatable (whatever you want to call it) design, but I'm unsure how many bolts it had.
As far as the 8mm elements, rumor has it they are for some different series/grade of MW pump that operates at a higher pressure than ours. Therefore, they were designed with a different mounting flange to accommodate the pressure. However, I don't know if this thought has ever been solidly confirmed, so take it for what it's worth. Heck, find them and prove someone wrong.
Supposedly a company called Hypermax has quite a bit of experience with MW pumps by way of the DT466. As far as I know no one has contacted them yet in regard to our smaller MW pumps, but it's worth a shot. Anyone dealt with these guys? Other thoughts?
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - bgkast - 05-28-2008
What's a DT466? I've heard of Hypermax, it's worth a shot.
Edit: this is why I've heard of them: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.gohypermax.com/Related.aspx?id=d38d5e37-71c0-4cd4-99a0-670abd4b7b4e">http://www.gohypermax.com/Related.aspx? ... 0abd4b7b4e</a><!-- m -->
![[Image: RR_07-2Ab%20(Large).jpg]](http://www.gohypermax.com/links/RR_07-2Ab%20(Large).jpg)
They seem to be all Ford, and I know no IDI Fords used a MW pump, they use a stanadyne rotary pump.
Re: 10.0 mm delivery valves - tantank79 - 05-28-2008
"The Navistar DT engine family is a line of mid-range inline-6 diesel engines. With horsepower ratings ranging from 210 to 350 hp (260 kW), the Navistar DT engines are used primarily in medium-duty truck and bus applications...
From 1984 until late 1995, the DT engines used a Bosch pump-line-nozzle (PLN) mechanical direct fuel injection system. 1984 through 1992 DTs used a Bosch MW style pump, while the 1993-1995s used a Bosch P style pump,"
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DT466">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DT466</a><!-- m -->