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+--- Thread: OM617 Performance (/showthread.php?tid=1505)
OM617 Performance - cgoodwin - 07-17-2010
I am looking for information on increasing the performance of the OM617, I find pleanty on the OM603 but little on the 617. I am looking to get 260-300hp and expect to use a different turbo, intercooler, modded pump (Myna) but was hoping to get some real world figures before I dig in. Anyone gotten this kind of HP from the 617?
RE: OM617 Performance - Rudolf_Diesel - 07-17-2010
(07-17-2010, 11:58 AM)cgoodwin I am looking for information on increasing the performance of the OM617, I find pleanty on the OM603 but little on the 617. I am looking to get 260-300hp and expect to use a different turbo, intercooler, modded pump (Myna) but was hoping to get some real world figures before I dig in. Anyone gotten this kind of HP from the 617?
Search this site and threads by me
RE: OM617 Performance - Biohazard - 07-17-2010
Currently Rudolf has the best threads going on 617 power. I HIGHLY recommend checking his progress.
As far as I know, 3 of us here (myself included) have injection pumps at DervTuning. Rudolf's pump is first up. DervTuning also has a thread about testing that pump, there are some links in it to Youtube videos.
I'm almost ready for my pump, but have a few upgrades I'm trying to get done before the pump gets to me. I need to upgrade my exhaust and install an elec radiator fan (long road trip in the desert, I don't trust the stock fan).
As far as real world numbers, I'm sure Rudolf will be posting those up just as soon as he has them!
I'm waiting to see how much power his 7.5mm elements can put out with his awesome supercharger/turbo set up.
RE: OM617 Performance - JTY - 07-18-2010
(07-17-2010, 11:58 AM)cgoodwin I am looking for information on increasing the performance of the OM617, I find pleanty on the OM603 but little on the 617. I am looking to get 260-300hp and expect to use a different turbo, intercooler, modded pump (Myna) but was hoping to get some real world figures before I dig in. Anyone gotten this kind of HP from the 617?
There's no problems getting 250-300hp from 617A, but only with 617A.
Normal 617 can't handle the increased stress, been there than that
Just get yoruself M-pump with 7mm elements, good exaust manifold, good intake and bigger turbo. Very simple
You can check my 300SD superturbo project for some info.
RE: OM617 Performance - mk216v - 07-26-2010
(07-18-2010, 05:57 PM)JTY(07-17-2010, 11:58 AM)cgoodwin I am looking for information on increasing the performance of the OM617, I find pleanty on the OM603 but little on the 617. I am looking to get 260-300hp and expect to use a different turbo, intercooler, modded pump (Myna) but was hoping to get some real world figures before I dig in. Anyone gotten this kind of HP from the 617?
There's no problems getting 250-300hp from 617A, but only with 617A.
Normal 617 can't handle the increased stress, been there than that
Just get yoruself M-pump with 7mm elements, good exaust manifold, good intake and bigger turbo. Very simple
You can check my 300SD superturbo project for some info.
I'm a noob to this site(not to performance tuning however) and it seems like a great resource. Like cgoodwin, I'm interested to learn what a built 617A w/ larger turbo, a-a or a-w i/c, modded IP, 2.5-3" exhaust, etc, will do for both hp and more importantly tq. Sadly even after searching on this site, there doesn't seem to be 1-3 popular "starter" setups(ie Garrett GTx turbo, i/c from x source, IP from x source, DP from x source) for use on a 617A, but instead a wide mishmash of turbos and i/c's and such(I can understand why as many are grabbing turbos from other junkyard TD applications, ebay i/c's, etc).
It just makes it difficult for the noob's to know what works the best, and for even veterans to compare with each other, as with SOOOO many different setups, comparing them all is fruitless.
RE: OM617 Performance - GREASY_BEAST - 07-26-2010
(07-26-2010, 10:45 PM)mk216v It just makes it difficult for the noob's to know what works the best, and for even veterans to compare with each other, as with SOOOO many different setups, comparing them all is fruitless.
Since there is no "shit in a box" solution for these things, it pretty much comes down to experimentation. That's why it's fun. I disagree that comparison is fruitless, comparing solutions and results (torque/power curves, 0-60 times, hell even subjective things like handling impressions), gives one an idea of what is possible. One fact of life is that cat-skinning can be done many different ways. Since there are no boxed kits for these cars, one is saved by default from the delusion of the "only" solution.
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 07-27-2010
I hate "Shit In A Box" cars..... Like Hondas. That's why I bought My 300. Everything is custom, no two cars are the same. And yes you CAN benefit from the info here because you will not be able to copy one setup, but rather use ideas and setups from many different guys to put together your own version of what YOU think will work best.
RE: OM617 Performance - mk216v - 07-27-2010
(07-26-2010, 11:02 PM)GREASY_BEAST(07-26-2010, 10:45 PM)mk216v It just makes it difficult for the noob's to know what works the best, and for even veterans to compare with each other, as with SOOOO many different setups, comparing them all is fruitless.
Since there is no "shit in a box" solution for these things, it pretty much comes down to experimentation. That's why it's fun. I disagree that comparison is fruitless, comparing solutions and results (torque/power curves, 0-60 times, hell even subjective things like handling impressions), gives one an idea of what is possible. One fact of life is that cat-skinning can be done many different ways. Since there are no boxed kits for these cars, one is saved by default from the delusion of the "only" solution.
"Shit in a box"---you mean like much of the stuff you find on eBay?
I agree it can be fun, but it can also be frustrating.
Yes, comparing may give an idea what is possible but IMHO improvement over one's custom setup can be more difficult/expensive/etc than not since there is no standardization. Let's say two guys with 617A's with different i/c's(size, routing, placement) and different turbo setups (trims, a/r's, whatever) compare setups...any data compared between the two is really irrelevant IMHO until there is only ONE sole component difference between the two vehicles (let's say if everything was the same but the turbo differences). If the turbo specs are the only variation then it's much easier to see a delta(+ or -).
That's all I'm saying.
(07-27-2010, 02:13 PM)Captain America I hate "Shit In A Box" cars..... Like Hondas. That's why I bought My 300. Everything is custom, no two cars are the same. And yes you CAN benefit from the info here because you will not be able to copy one setup, but rather use ideas and setups from many different guys to put together your own version of what YOU think will work best.
What you THINK will work best? See my post above...
Data is key IMHO. Thinking and theorizing is just that--thoughts and theory. Do you think professional race teams just hypothesize about what will work best and then implement it and call it good vs hypothesizing/thinking/theorizing followed by testing testing testing, and more testing, and then more testing, probably re-thinking/theorizing many times along the way?
You guys answered my question--doesn't seem to be the standardization and data checking on top of that, that I was hoping there would be. It is what it is.
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 07-27-2010
(07-27-2010, 03:18 PM)mk216v(07-27-2010, 02:13 PM)Captain America I hate "Shit In A Box" cars..... Like Hondas. That's why I bought My 300. Everything is custom, no two cars are the same. And yes you CAN benefit from the info here because you will not be able to copy one setup, but rather use ideas and setups from many different guys to put together your own version of what YOU think will work best.
What you THINK will work best? See my post above...
Data is key IMHO. Thinking and theorizing is just that--thoughts and theory. Do you think professional race teams just hypothesize about what will work best and then implement it and call it good vs hypothesizing/thinking/theorizing followed by testing testing testing, and more testing, and then more testing, probably re-thinking/theorizing many times along the way?
You guys answered my question--doesn't seem to be the standardization and data checking on top of that, that I was hoping there would be. It is what it is.
Why are you complaining?
THIS IS NOT A RACE TEAM!
What do you think the race teams started as? Race teams? NO! They started as guys like us trying things out and collaborating together and against each other. The guys on here don't generally have the money to put into all the data collection and standardization your talking about. I sure as hell don't! I just browse around and get ideas based on what is discussed and use my head to figure out what will best suit my goals for the car
Hey man if you got the time and money, be my guest!
RE: OM617 Performance - mk216v - 07-27-2010
(07-27-2010, 05:48 PM)Captain America Why are you complaining?
THIS IS NOT A RACE TEAM!
What do you think the race teams started as? Race teams? NO! They started as guys like us trying things out and collaborating together and against each other. The guys on here don't generally have the money to put into all the data collection and standardization your talking about. I sure as hell don't! I just browse around and get ideas based on what is discussed and use my head to figure out what will best suit my goals for the car
Hey man if you got the time and money, be my guest!
CaptAmerica,
You're misunderstanding--I'm not complaining. I simply asked a question about if there were known high quality&performing component combinations (X turbo specs, X i/c, X injection pump, X size of downpipe/exhaust, etc) for those w/ the 617A like me who are looking, and you provided the "shit in a box" analogy. You answered my question--it doesn't seem like there are any proven combos. And that's ok if that's ok with you.
The race team analogy was to point out that race teams do more than just "trying things out and collaborating"---even starter race teams(privateer or professional) have to collect data to be successful(and quickly move forward and improve) or else they won't. For example, after adding a larger turbo, are the EGT's too high--if so, what's the cause and/or what could help reduce them?...etc.
Perhaps I'm the only one who feels this way (although I doubt it looking at ForcedInduction's posts and others who seem educated about gathering data), but if you're not gathering any data (boost, EGT's, dyno figures, etc--save for the dyno time, it's not THAT expensive to gather that data) and then comparing it with others who have VERY similar setups to yours(in order to see where you might be able to make an improvement), then it's all apples and oranges and will make progress a bit more difficult.
FWIW, for those who are buying new parts(I realize that many on here are buying used/wrecking yard components, but even that could be more standardized), standardization wouldn't take any more money than not; the first guy buys a Garrett turbo w/ X trim/AR/etc, a-w i/c from X company, etc, then tests it and gathers data. The second guy(who wants to improve on what the first guy did) buys the same i/c but goes with a different A/R on the turbo and tests his. They compare EGT/boost/power figures....and on and on and on. Eventually the "sweet spot" for the money will be found. Again, it comes down to making single changes with comparable setups.
Sorry to rock the boat--keep paddling.
<beer>
RE: OM617 Performance - Jtn190D - 07-27-2010
Very good point man.
RE: OM617 Performance - GREASY_BEAST - 07-27-2010
The thing is, everything pales in cost compared to the pump. A 3" Mandrel-Bent turbo-back exhaust can be built for less than $300. An intercooler can be fitted for less than $200. You can't get a performance IP for less than $1200. The shape of the damn downpipe is absolutely irrelevant. Just get a big exhaust pipe and let the stuff out. Its all in the injector pump, and there are lots of people working on that. Read some threads by Tomnik, DervTuning, and Rudolph_Diesel before you go running your mouth about shit that doesn't matter AT ALL. The problem is that no matter how crazy you get about scavenging and intake fluid dynamics, there is no way you are going to get around the fact that the OM617 is a two-valve uniflow engine. Even with the high-performance 4-valve crossflow OM606 all you need is enough airflow and a myna pump and you can have as much power as you want.
The high end development considerations that you are talking about that would be worthwhile would only center around how to make the turbo spool faster, and how to keep things cooler. Even so, it is really simple stuff and there's no "data" to be collected. The fact is using caveman tech it is possible to make more power than is possible to put on the road, and get good mileage if you want it...
EDIT: Furthermore there is no need to "compare turbochargers" in the wild on these engines. The method you are advocating is called "guess-and-check" and it is most certainly NOT what any intelligent race team will do.. There is a reason they have computers and math and stuff...
RE: OM617 Performance - yankneck696 - 07-27-2010
OK, here's my opinion & we all know what an opinion is worth... How the hell can you standardize performance on cars that have had up to 7 previous owners, unknown maintenance records, hundreds of thousands of miles and are at least 25 YAERS OLD ??? If you have about $7-8,000, buy a rebuild (maybe up to 10,000) & buy a dyno, full datalogging system with flowscan, too. you now have about a $50-75,000 investment on a 25+ year old vehicle. What I LOVE about this site is all of the variations, ingenuity, trying different things, engineering phenomenal parts & even TOOLS.
All I have ever had for a Merc Diesel was an old 240D engine & STUFFED into a Samurai with a ford probe turbo adapted to a hacked & welded 617 manifold. Behind the Sammy transfer case, I had an old Datsun transfer case mounted backwards to run 2 rear axles (first 8" Toy open always drives, 2nd, LC 40 rear offset diff welded) & a LC40 front axle in the front. Ran it on veggie on a hacked up system with a pair of Racor FRG 900 filters. Made my own TIT fuel lines to preheat the veggie & an ace hardware valving setup to switch over from the diesel in an outboard tank to a beer keg for the veggie. If I remember right, it was 4.56 gears running military hummer tires & rims with homemade adapters. Wobbled like a 450pound hooker running from the cops, but I drove it for 3 years while (Of course) working at a junkyard. Built it there, too. Fixed it every monday & tuesday night after work. Ran it in the swamp endlessly each weekend, won alot of bets ( lots of Natty Ice) & pulled out alot of trucks much larger, went alot of places that $30,000 - $50,000 trucks wouldn't dare. It's still running as the parts pulling truck at the yard & the only "fabrication tools" I had were a drill, sawzall, torch, cheap harbor freight 110 fluxcored wire feed welder & parts from every make & model of car & truck we had. Even hydraulic steering from some weird military forklift. To round it all out, the side & rearvier mirrors were from a '72 dodge aspen, cable operated. Oh, the winch was from a Duce, hydraulically driven with a pump I found in the trunk of a car.
There's your baseline...
"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible" Frank Zappa
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we all do what we want, we try different things, no 2 cars will EVER be the same on this site, but you can get alot of inspiration to do alot of persperation from this site. Read all of the back posts & see the evolutions of some of the projects. There will never be kits for these cars ( except the old 240 turbo kits from 3 or more decades ago). I havent touched a merc in 3 years, I think. I check this site every day & input what I do to possibly help others. Peace & MOD IT !!!!!
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 07-27-2010
(07-27-2010, 09:51 PM)GREASY_BEAST The thing is, everything pales in cost compared to the pump. A 3" Mandrel-Bent turbo-back exhaust can be built for less than $300. An intercooler can be fitted for less than $200. You can't get a performance IP for less than $1200. The shape of the damn downpipe is absolutely irrelevant. Just get a big exhaust pipe and let the stuff out. Its all in the injector pump, and there are lots of people working on that. Read some threads by Tomnik, DervTuning, and Rudolph_Diesel before you go running your mouth about shit that doesn't matter AT ALL. The problem is that no matter how crazy you get about scavenging and intake fluid dynamics, there is no way you are going to get around the fact that the OM617 is a two-valve uniflow engine. Even with the high-performance 4-valve crossflow OM606 all you need is enough airflow and a myna pump and you can have as much power as you want.
The high end development considerations that you are talking about that would be worthwhile would only center around how to make the turbo spool faster, and how to keep things cooler. Even so, it is really simple stuff and there's no "data" to be collected. The fact is using caveman tech it is possible to make more power than is possible to put on the road, and get good mileage if you want it...
EDIT: Furthermore there is no need to "compare turbochargers" in the wild on these engines. The method you are advocating is called "guess-and-check" and it is most certainly NOT what any intelligent race team will do.. There is a reason they have computers and math and stuff...
(07-27-2010, 10:05 PM)yankneck696 OK, here's my opinion & we all know what an opinion is worth... How the hell can you standardize performance on cars that have had up to 7 previous owners, unknown maintenance records, hundreds of thousands of miles and are at least 25 YAERS OLD ??? If you have about $7-8,000, buy a rebuild (maybe up to 10,000) & buy a dyno, full datalogging system with flowscan, too. you now have about a $50-75,000 investment on a 25+ year old vehicle. What I LOVE about this site is all of the variations, ingenuity, trying different things, engineering phenomenal parts & even TOOLS.
All I have ever had for a Merc Diesel was an old 240D engine & STUFFED into a Samurai with a ford probe turbo adapted to a hacked & welded 617 manifold. Behind the Sammy transfer case, I had an old Datsun transfer case mounted backwards to run 2 rear axles (first 8" Toy open always drives, 2nd, LC 40 rear offset diff welded) & a LC40 front axle in the front. Ran it on veggie on a hacked up system with a pair of Racor FRG 900 filters. Made my own TIT fuel lines to preheat the veggie & an ace hardware valving setup to switch over from the diesel in an outboard tank to a beer keg for the veggie. If I remember right, it was 4.56 gears running military hummer tires & rims with homemade adapters. Wobbled like a 450pound hooker running from the cops, but I drove it for 3 years while (Of course) working at a junkyard. Built it there, too. Fixed it every monday & tuesday night after work. Ran it in the swamp endlessly each weekend, won alot of bets ( lots of Natty Ice) & pulled out alot of trucks much larger, went alot of places that $30,000 - $50,000 trucks wouldn't dare. It's still running as the parts pulling truck at the yard & the only "fabrication tools" I had were a drill, sawzall, torch, cheap harbor freight 110 fluxcored wire feed welder & parts from every make & model of car & truck we had. Even hydraulic steering from some weird military forklift. To round it all out, the side & rearvier mirrors were from a '72 dodge aspen, cable operated. Oh, the winch was from a Duce, hydraulically driven with a pump I found in the trunk of a car.
There's your baseline...
"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible" Frank Zappa
I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we all do what we want, we try different things, no 2 cars will EVER be the same on this site, but you can get alot of inspiration to do alot of persperation from this site. Read all of the back posts & see the evolutions of some of the projects. There will never be kits for these cars ( except the old 240 turbo kits from 3 or more decades ago). I havent touched a merc in 3 years, I think. I check this site every day & input what I do to possibly help others. Peace & MOD IT !!!!!
Yeah! I thought I was the only one for a sec.... whew!
RE: OM617 Performance - mk216v - 07-27-2010
Gee, what a warm and friendly welcome to the forum.
Again, not looking for a "kit"--just looking for proven/reliable upgrade combinations for the 617A newbies.
Different strokes for different folks...I'll leave it at that.
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 07-27-2010
I am still new myself but have quickly discovered that there is no such thing as "proven/reliable upgrade combinations for the 617A newbies"
Start with the normally neglected maintenance items to restore the car back to factory performance then go for upgrades. Going back to factory is the baseline everyone trys to achieve. This is a small forum too. if you want somewhere with the most "data" (not really) try Benzworld... There are like a million members there.
Then READ, READ, READ! try to remember..... and put your creativeness to use! Every car here is unique, as previously stated.
You ARE welcome here as far as I'm concerned; but you made what sounded like an accusation/insult in post #8, my guard instantly went up, and I shoot first, ask questions later....
If you state what vehicle you have and what your goals are, we can definitely make recommendations!
I think I portrayed my opinion correctly? I'm only 22!
RE: OM617 Performance - mk216v - 07-27-2010
(07-27-2010, 11:28 PM)Captain America I am still new myself but have quickly discovered that there is no such thing as "proven/reliable upgrade combinations for the 617A newbies"
Start with the normally neglected maintenance items to restore the car back to factory performance then go for upgrades. Going back to factory is the baseline everyone trys to achieve. This is a small forum too. if you want somewhere with the most "data" (not really) try Benzworld... There are like a million members there.
Then READ, READ, READ! try to remember..... and put your creativeness to use! Every car here is unique, as previously stated.
You ARE welcome here as far as I'm concerned; but you made what sounded like an accusation/insult in post #8, my guard instantly went up, and I shoot first, ask questions later....
If you state what vehicle you have and what your goals are, we can definitely make recommendations!
I think I portrayed my opinion correctly? I'm only 22!
Ok, that's all you had to say.
I FULLY agree with you; get ALL the maintenance done and vehicle in primo "stock" shape/reliability, then start down the upgrade path. No use in modifying a vehicle that is behind on it's maintenance needs.
I've been reading and taking all the info in, but again, with everyone running different setups, I've already found it difficult to sort out "what works the best." Coming from more modern German automotive realms, there are popular combos that most run(mainly euro upgrades so really straightforward bolt-on components; larger turbos, more efficient i/c's, larger injectors, etc)...and then once that setup is maxxed out for power is when individuals take that known setup and engineer it further. That's what I'm used to so I expected in some ways I'd find the same here.
Sorry about any accusations/insults in post #8. Looking back I can see how your guard went up but throwing stones wasn't my intent--I was just trying to push you a bit on the data/info (boost, EGT, dyno sheets) front. Sorry about that. <peace>
Well I have a W460 G-Wagen LWB, 4spd manual....currently 617(non-A) w/ 88hp. In general, looking for reasonable MPG still but lots more torque than I have(or don't have
) but am not trying to create a supercharged/turbocharged monster. Just something that has good upgrade options(IP mod, 2.5-2.75" SS exhaust, i/c, turbo upgrade, etc) over stock for down the road when I grow used to the stock power. 3 options I'm deciding between; 617A(would be the most period-correct of the 3 but I've driven a local SWB G w/ this stock setup and 4spd auto and it was ho-hum), 603A(I've driven a local one w/ this stock swap and 5spd manual and it had good power), or 606A w/ 603A IP(I've ridden in Krash's w/ 4spd auto and 2nd gear flare, w/ stock turbo I believe, modded IP, and 2.5"? exhaust--damn thing scooted!!!!).TIA for any help or suggestions!
I appreciate you posting back up.
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 07-28-2010
Cool man, So now that were buddies
...These motors are so simple almost anything helps to get more out of it. make absolutely sure fuel supply from the tank is sufficient, glow plugs are good, valves are adjusted, alda is clean and obstruction free, cam is properly timed, then rebuild the injectors with some good nozzles and make sure they are balanced nice (I have yet to do this)... then you gotta dump the coin to go further, well kinda,...
I just put a bigger compressor wheel in my stock turbo (60 trim from 45) for more efficient boost that will allow me to crank it up when it want.
adding a VNT/VGT will take fabrication... as will an intercooler, A/W seems the easiest and most efficient for the W123,24's
I've read you can go insane with cool boost (38-40psi before things break)
then you have the fuel battle.... I have not even looked into that yet because my mind does not have the capacity to store everything...
RE: OM617 Performance - Rudolf_Diesel - 07-28-2010
I looked high and low for some kind of performance parts, what I found was stuff I could do myself. I read much more than I post and do more work than talk about it. I am a hands on type of person and will try to build what I need by my own invention or reverse engineering what has already been done that is either no longer available or cost prohibitve.
When I started my EM9D project I searched for about two weeks straight for a crank pulley, I found a few places that would build a custom one for $600.00. I could not justify buying what I ended up making for $60.00.
All of the parts have been fabricated by me. It would have been nice to just buy a kit, but for one there is NO fun in that route. If you want it easy then a Honda or SBC is the way to go. There is NO market for these cars as far as performance, WE are trailblazing the way to go.
There are a few ways to go, VNT, Twin Charge, Compound or just an upgraded turbo. As we go along we can see what the best option is, patience is what is needed to see what others are doing. Once they have the perfect set up then you can copy and do you own.
I am building my car because I thought the green wagon was cool and wanted to see if I could do the same. Once I am done I want to be known as the tan sedan from So Cal with the OMG617.
As you search through the net you will find a common cause all over the world - we all want to go faster. We have a few from Europe that we can learn much from. If it wasn't for tomnik, my project would only be eye candy - we are all here to help.
I hope you don't feel we aren't helping, we are on a common quest.
RE: OM617 Performance - GREASY_BEAST - 07-28-2010
I guess the problem comes from asking the impossible. There are no "proven setups" because there are no bolt-on parts. Therefore it is not possible to have a "proven setup"...
If you want a 617a tuning baseline look at the threads titled "C111", I think they are stickies. Essentially, what they had was a long-runner intake manifold, a big turbo with intercooler, large free-flowing exhaust, and a custom IP. Granted, that car was designed for one thing only: a specific power output at a specific rpm in order to set long-distance speed records. However, just by looking at it you can see how crude and easily replicable the induction tract was...
Here's your recipe for something marginally better than the C111:
(1) custom tubular exhaust manifold
(2) W115 300D long runner intake manifold with integrated A/W IC
(3) modified injection pump
(4) 3" exhaust
All of these things must be manufactured by you, because there is no one else to do it. Do you see yet why there is no "baseline" as you describe?
Just follow "first principles" of fluid dynamics with respect to the airflow and provided you have read your turbo map correctly you will be all set. Its the turbo map which dictates all the performance characteristics.
The limitation is still the fact that the OM617 simply cannot flow enough air efficiently to make lots of power.
There was apparently one that made 340hp or so but apparently it grenaded under (lots of) boost. Others have been claimed around 300hp. The C111 was something like 230hp.
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 07-28-2010
Easy on those SBC's! that is my gas motor of choice Rudolf! And not because I can buy shit ally day long, but because they are simple like the 617's and you can make your own parts.
I didn't buy this as a kit:
RE: OM617 Performance - JTY - 07-28-2010
(07-28-2010, 12:24 AM)GREASY_BEAST The limitation is still the fact that the OM617 simply cannot flow enough air efficiently to make lots of power.
There was apparently one that made 340hp or so but apparently it grenaded under (lots of) boost. Others have been claimed around 300hp. The C111 was something like 230hp.
One OM617A here in finland made these numbers:
341hp/535nm, 1.8bar, hp diesel IP ja hx40super
And one around 380hp at 2.8bar, but it exploded
If you keep the boost under 2bar you are safe with OM617A rods, but over
that you get problems. We have several OM617A here in Finland that where boosting over 2bar and bent rods.
And back on the topic, so much talking but no action
Just bolt 7mm element IP, bigger turbo, nice IC, good exhaust and you get around 200-250hp very easily.
RE: OM617 Performance - yankneck696 - 07-28-2010
Pardon my post, as I now see it as rude in ways. This is a tinkerer's, site. It's not a team site, but we are all working towards the same 2 basic things. MPG ( efficiency) & power. There is a sticky about Dyno sheets, but it even is not standardized. Different types of dynos, different measurement units* even different brands of dynos give different readings. Yeak, I was tweaked by one of your posts & went off in a rant. Well, now y'all know the whacked ride I built in the junkyard. I work on alot of diesel powered boats & now got an old '75 Penn Yan tunnel drive & was planning on stuffing a modded 617 in it. Alas, it's reverse rotation. As an example, I can go to the PY BBS & in 5 minutes, know exactly what I need to change to make it happen, but the parts are VERY rare & no engineering data exists on them & I gave up on the idea, unless I come across a true 1:1 reversing transmission for less than $3000. You're playing in an arean that's truly in it's infancy. People are going where no others have gone before. By the time that there is some form of standardization with the 617A, most of the cars will be gone. Hell, try to search on the internet for specific measurements to build any adapter plate. I did for months. I wanted to stuff one in my Dodge Raider. Good luck in your ventures. If you like getting dirty, smelling like diesel, purging air, readjusting your bowden cable, fabricating, scavenging, going to junkyards (even if just for mockup), modding filter housings, then this will be your first site in the morning & your last at night. It surely is for me & again, I havent owned a merc for 3 years & didn't even have internet access when I built my contraption. I just stuffed junk together & tweaked. Have fun with your merc.
RE: OM617 Performance - ForcedInduction - 07-28-2010
(07-27-2010, 09:51 PM)GREASY_BEAST The method you are advocating is called "guess-and-check" and it is most certainly NOT what any intelligent race team will do.. There is a reason they have computers and math and stuff...Exactly. There is a map for damn near ever compressor on the market and there are several turbo calculators on the net that will even plot out the airflow and PR for you!
Here is one already setup for a factory OM617a: http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml?FeetASL=0&Tamb=30&Bore=90.9&Stroke=92.4&nCyl=5&RPM=4500&VE=85&Boost=12&Ec=75&Eic=0&PdropIC=0&TambIC=30&wiPercentMethanol=0&wiRate=0&wiTemp=0&SFC=0&AFR=0&maxInjectorDutyCycle=0
Quote:Gee, what a warm and friendly welcome to the forum.You know the saying, "you made your bed..."
Quote:Again, not looking for a "kit"--just looking for proven/reliable upgrade combinations for the 617A newbies.Pyrometer, VNT turbo in the GT20-25 range, intercooler (air or water, doesn't matter), high output injection pump and fine tuning of all the injection and transmission settings.
Or if you want a simple and free jump to 145hp; Install a pyrometer, yank the rack limiter and set the boost to 15psi.
There is no universal "kit" by any definition. What parts you choose massively depends on what you want the car to do; track, autocross, rally, drag, high altitude, desert heat, the arctic, highway cruiser, stoplight sprinter or just a well-rounded sporty daily driver. Somebody might be fine with a tiny instant stump pulling torque VNT while somebody else wants a sky-high rpm extreme horsepower HX40.
What do YOU want to do is basically what everyone is asking.
Quote:Well I have a W460 G-Wagen LWB, 4spd manual....currently 617(non-A) w/ 88hp.Thats your big limitation. The non-turbo 617 can't reliably handle additional stress (thermal and physical) from a turbo. MB completely redesigned the engine internally just to add the 9psi of boost. You can add a turbo and turn up the fuel it will make more power, but don't expect to see big numbers without bearing or piston failure.
I'd experiment with the non-turbo engine but have something waiting on the sideline to replace it.
RE: OM617 Performance - mk216v - 07-28-2010
AWESOME info all, thank you!!
My apologies for causing a stir to begin with. It wasn't my intent.
It's exciting to see this "market" in the infancy stages--great things to come!
You all have helped me understand that a 617A upgrade(from my 617) may not be the setup for me. Researching 603A and 606A's now...
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 07-28-2010
(07-28-2010, 05:41 AM)ForcedInduction Here is one already setup for a factory OM617a: http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml?FeetASL=0&Tamb=30&Bore=90.9&Stroke=92.4&nCyl=5&RPM=4500&VE=85&Boost=12&Ec=75&Eic=0&PdropIC=0&TambIC=30&wiPercentMethanol=0&wiRate=0&wiTemp=0&SFC=0&AFR=0&maxInjectorDutyCycle=0
Forced, I cant get the map to show up anymore.... In firefox it shows nothing no matter the chosen compressor and in IE it just show a red X
Have you had any problems?
RE: OM617 Performance - ForcedInduction - 07-28-2010
(07-28-2010, 03:32 PM)Captain America Have you had any problems?
The maps don't plot out for me either. I've sent several e-mails questions to the site's contact link with no replies.
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 07-28-2010
Damn it!
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 03-09-2011
Hey forced, or anyone. Are there any working turbo map calculators that you prefer these days? Or can you post all the needed input specs so I can look for one myself? I know the obvious things like elevation, rpm, boost; but don't know VE%, and cfm ....
Thanks
RE: OM617 Performance - aaa - 03-09-2011
http://www.motorgeek.com/portal/block/mx_turbocalcs/flowcalc.php?FeetASL=0&FeetASL=0&Tamb=21&Bore=90.9&Stroke=92.4&nCyl=5&RPM=3900&VE=67&Boost=25&Ec=60&Eic=70&PdropIC=0.05&TambIC=21&wiPercentMethanol=50&wiRate=100&wiTemp=21&SFC=0.49&AFR=13.3&maxInjectorDutyCycle=85&fullpage=true&page=flowcalc
Why would you need cfm? No I don't know VE either.
RE: OM617 Performance - Captain America - 03-10-2011
(03-09-2011, 08:55 PM)aaa http://www.motorgeek.com/portal/block/mx_turbocalcs/flowcalc.php?FeetASL=0&FeetASL=0&Tamb=21&Bore=90.9&Stroke=92.4&nCyl=5&RPM=3900&VE=67&Boost=25&Ec=60&Eic=70&PdropIC=0.05&TambIC=21&wiPercentMethanol=50&wiRate=100&wiTemp=21&SFC=0.49&AFR=13.3&maxInjectorDutyCycle=85&fullpage=true&page=flowcalc
Why would you need cfm? No I don't know VE either.
Guess CFM is calculated...
Your link is similar to what Forced used.
BTW the not2fast calc works again for the most part...
My Setup Below
Motorhead:::: http://www.motorgeek.com/portal/block/mx_turbocalcs/flowcalc.php?FeetASL=0&FeetASL=1450&Tamb=30&Bore=90.9&Stroke=92.4&nCyl=5&RPM=4500&VE=85&Boost=13&Ec=75&Eic=0&PdropIC=0&TambIC=30&wiPercentMethanol=0&wiRate=0&wiTemp=0&SFC=0&AFR=0&maxInjectorDutyCycle=0&fullpage=true&page=flowcalc
Not2Fast:::: http://www.not2fast.com/turbo/glossary/turbo_calc.shtml?FeetASL=1450&Tamb=30&Bore=90.9&Stroke=92.4&nCyl=5&RPM=4500&VE=85&Boost=13&Ec=75&Eic=0&PdropIC=0&TambIC=30&wiPercentMethanol=0&wiRate=0&wiTemp=0&SFC=0&AFR=0&maxInjectorDutyCycle=0
EDIT: I use the stock Garrett T3 with a 60 trim wheel
RE: OM617 Performance - aaa - 03-10-2011
Yeah I had noticed the not2fast site trying to hotlink its compressor map images from motorhead. Looks like motorhead is the original one, or at least the compress map images work there.
RE: OM617 Performance - ForcedInduction - 03-10-2011
(03-09-2011, 03:54 PM)Captain America Are there any working turbo map calculators that you prefer these days?
Not2fast still works fine for me.
Here is a flow converter to work with Holset's KG/second format maps: http://www.softschools.com/measurement/massflow_conversion/
RE: OM617 Performance - rdavisinva - 04-04-2015
(07-18-2010, 05:57 PM)JTYI know this thread is old as the hills, but perhaps the subject is alive...(07-17-2010, 11:58 AM)cgoodwin I am looking for information on increasing the performance of the OM617...
There's no problems getting 250-300hp from 617A, but only with 617A.
Normal 617 can't handle the increased stress, been there than that
Just get yoruself M-pump with 7mm elements, good exaust manifold, good intake and bigger turbo. Very simple
You can check my 300SD superturbo project for some info.
Where does one locate an M-Pump with 7mm elements???
RE: OM617 Performance - rdavisinva - 04-04-2015
(07-27-2010, 07:30 PM)mk216vI know this thread is old as the hills, but perhaps the subject is alive...(07-27-2010, 05:48 PM)Captain America Why are you complaining?
THIS IS NOT A RACE TEAM!
What do you think the race teams started as? Race teams? NO! They started as guys like us trying things out and collaborating together and against each other. The guys on here don't generally have the money to put into all the data collection and standardization your talking about. I sure as hell don't! I just browse around and get ideas based on what is discussed and use my head to figure out what will best suit my goals for the car
Hey man if you got the time and money, be my guest!
CaptAmerica,
You're misunderstanding--I'm not complaining. I simply asked a question about if there were known high quality&performing component combinations (X turbo specs, X i/c, X injection pump, X size of downpipe/exhaust, etc) for those w/ the 617A like me who are looking, and you provided the "shit in a box" analogy. You answered my question--it doesn't seem like there are any proven combos. And that's ok if that's ok with you...
In summary. think you are simply looking for a baseline, starting point, standard what have you, it just doesn't exist.
The shit-box term in my mind is that set of parts that comes in a box, gets delivered by a shipper, you open it up and spend the weekend bolting it on, all fits "out-of-the box... come Monday presto you have a fast ride.
I think there are ways to establish a baseline, but there are only a few handfuls of people supplying performance pumps.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you need to establish a goal.
My goal is to get between 160 and 190 HP.
To reach this it is my understanding that the starting point should be a pump that can deliver more fuel.
Once you have that in place, you can try some different components, intercooler, different turbo, and so on.
When you have reached your goal, then you decide if you are happy, or if you want more power and go to the next step.
I don't know about you, but I have chosen to not adjust the MW-Pump.
Not because it can't be done, but because I think it will be hard to reach 190HP with the MW-Pump.
If you don't have more fuel, you won't get more power and everyone I've talked to says the MW-Pump runs out of fuel before reaching the performance thresholds most of us are looking for.