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+--- Thread: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps (/showthread.php?tid=1544)
Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Captain America - 07-28-2010
Posted for mk216v....
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - garage - 07-28-2010
goodstuff
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - mk216v - 07-29-2010
Thx much Cody!
Crap though--some of the page corners are illegible due to my original copy(and then faxing). If you'd like me to fax again I can, or if anyone can't read a certain something, PM me and I'll type the text for you.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - DeliveryValve - 07-29-2010
(07-29-2010, 03:42 PM)mk216v ...
Crap though--some of the page corners are illegible due to my original copy(and then faxing). If you'd like me to fax again I can, or if anyone can't read a certain something, PM me and I'll type the text for you.
Joe Mondello has been around for long time. Although not a diesel, I was always impressed with the power he got out of Oldsmobile gasser engines back in the day including over sized 350s that used the Olds diesel blocks. He knows how to make power.
Here is a nice copy...
.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - garage - 07-29-2010
Thanks DeliveryValve!
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Captain America - 07-29-2010
NICE!
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - mk216v - 07-30-2010
Thanks DeliveryValve! <thumbup>
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Captain America - 07-30-2010
X2! ...
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - DeliveryValve - 07-30-2010
No problem fellas…
Here is some of my thoughts relating to the article. For some time I’ve been thinking about port modification for more velocity and combustion chamber modification. I was thinking of messing around with it, but of course I don’t have the proper equipment or resources to create or test my theories. I ended up giving my spare cylinder head to Rudolf_Diesel last year for him to mess around with it when he gets bored so I hope he does something with it.
My combustion chamber modification would have been similar to Mondello’s article, though I would have been more thinking in terms of aiding in swirl combustion instead of breaking vortices. And the ports…. Well.. I believe it really needs to be raised quite a bit to get some velocity. But again, I don’t have equipment and resources to test that theory. Valve seat angle modification would be worked on also. I would of thought a standard 3 angle would of done the job, but Joe says otherwise. It would be cool to have a flow bench!
(617 cylinder head pic boosted from Konstan's thread at peachparts.)
The other thing Mondello mentions is about velocity from the exhaust port to spool up the turbo faster.
Biohazard posted a picture of his recently painted stock exhaust manifold that I think is fascinating because it clearly shows hot spots in the 2 in 1 runner as opposed to the single runner. This is from his “Flying Pumpkin” thread.
http://superturbodiesel.com/std/the-flyin-pumpkin-t-1153-2.html
Biohazard’s assessment: “..creating hotspots or high pressure areas like this manifold seems to be doing probably isn't helping anything. I'm thinking its from the different exhaust flow directions inside the manifold banging into each other right at the turbo opening. Probably why the single runner hasn't turned color yet... “
I agree with his take. It does seem those hotspots are areas of restrictions. Maybe exhaust routing should be taken a bit more seriously to ease flow to the turbo? Of course this would require some money or knowhow to do so!.
.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-01-2010
Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Pretty sure it's just a standard valve job and port match. Sure would love to put a stock cylinder head on a flow bench, along with the ported one. I have one of each hanging out if someone wants to volunteer a flow bench? 
If you have access, it would give the community some solid numbers!
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-02-2010
All I have at the moment are pics of the ports. You can still see the marks from the gasket around both the intake and exhaust ports. The guy didn't go full race crazy on the porting, just opened it up a bit and smoothed it out. It may be hard to see, but the surfaces of all the runners isn't super smooth. It's shiney, but it has a bit of the golf ball texture to it that you need for full air flow capability.
Intake ports:
Exhaust ports:
Again, I didn't have them hogged way out. I just wanted better than stock air flow with decent street manners.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Captain America - 08-02-2010
Its cool that like the article says, hog out the ports a keep the valve size stock for the velocity.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - garage - 08-02-2010
Right on thanks biohazard!!
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - ConnClark - 08-02-2010
Just to note that inducing swirl and turbulence in an IDI engine isn't going to get you anything. That is the prechamber's job.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - mk216v - 08-02-2010
(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-02-2010
(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - DeliveryValve - 08-03-2010
(08-02-2010, 11:38 AM)ConnClark Just to note that inducing swirl and turbulence in an IDI engine isn't going to get you anything. That is the prechamber's job.
Hey Conn, can you explain a bit more as to why swirl is not going to increase efficiency in an IDI?
I understand the prechamber's job in terms of combustion. But I would imagine having intake air swirl it's way in would increase efficiency in combustion in combination with the prechamber and the spent combustion swirling it's way out would increase scavenging of the rest of the gasses.
Even in later pre-chamber head renditions, Mercedes decided to have somewhat a shaped chamber..
603 Head
602 Head
Those examples maybe a bit of a stretch in terms of swirl combustion.
Anyhow It maybe hard to shape the combustion chamber on a 617 though because of the shallow water jacket in between the two valves.
.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - mk216v - 08-03-2010
(08-02-2010, 07:18 PM)Biohazard(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
I'll ask, thanks for the offer on S&H both ways.
It's a 617A head or ???
He's outside McMinnville, so ~1hr SW of Portland. S&H would be less I imagine.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-04-2010
(08-03-2010, 06:49 PM)mk216v(08-02-2010, 07:18 PM)Biohazard(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
I'll ask, thanks for the offer on S&H both ways.
It's a 617A head or ???
He's outside McMinnville, so ~1hr SW of Portland. S&H would be less I imagine.
Sweet! My ported head is a 617a turbo head. The stock head is a greasy 80 300D non turbo head. Port / valve size is, to the best of my knowledge, identical to the turbo ones. I know of the differences in cam grind, cam finish, sodium valves, etc. But for flow bench numbers, it should suffice. Let me know if your guy would be willing to volunteer some bench time! I know where McMinnville is, I have a friend down that way. Wouldn't be a bad excuse to take a trip.
Gives me a good reason to hot tank that head too... Currently, the grease is doing its job preventing rust.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - mk216v - 08-04-2010
(08-04-2010, 12:20 AM)Biohazard(08-03-2010, 06:49 PM)mk216v(08-02-2010, 07:18 PM)Biohazard(08-02-2010, 02:44 PM)mk216v(08-01-2010, 10:58 PM)Biohazard Looks like I'm going to have to try to weld up a header when I get back from Bonneville... LOL
I'm also planning on swapping on my ported cylinder head, but I don't want to post up a pic because it's not as sexy as this one!
Anyone with a (Superflow) flow bench?
I have a suggestion in OR if needed....he has been porting some of the finest watercooled VW (gas/petrol) heads for 30yrs. I could ask him if he'd be interesting with providing flow data.
If they're willing to volunteer time, I'll cover the shipping both ways. Or, Drive the heads down myself if its cheaper. I'm just between Tacoma and Seattle.
I'll ask, thanks for the offer on S&H both ways.
It's a 617A head or ???
He's outside McMinnville, so ~1hr SW of Portland. S&H would be less I imagine.
Sweet! My ported head is a 617a turbo head. The stock head is a greasy 80 300D non turbo head. Port / valve size is, to the best of my knowledge, identical to the turbo ones. I know of the differences in cam grind, cam finish, sodium valves, etc. But for flow bench numbers, it should suffice. Let me know if your guy would be willing to volunteer some bench time! I know where McMinnville is, I have a friend down that way. Wouldn't be a bad excuse to take a trip.
Just throwing this out there--any way to find a stock 617A head, just so we're comparing apples to apples in case there happens to be a difference in the non-A vs A?
I'll contact him tomorrow first to see if he has some spare time to provide.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - ForcedInduction - 08-05-2010
(08-04-2010, 11:55 PM)mk216v in case there happens to be a difference in the non-A vs A?
There shouldn't be beyond the camshaft and exhaust valves. None of the SAE or other documentation has mentioned changing the casting, reinforcing anything, coolant flow, etc etc.
What are the serial numbers on the two heads?
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-05-2010
I'll get the serial number of the ported 617A head tonight, the n/a head tomorrow. The n/a head is still over at my dads place. I know I've looked at both of them, and I believe the casting numbers are the same. Will verify though.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - ConnClark - 08-05-2010
(08-03-2010, 06:42 PM)DeliveryValve(08-02-2010, 11:38 AM)ConnClark Just to note that inducing swirl and turbulence in an IDI engine isn't going to get you anything. That is the prechamber's job.
Hey Conn, can you explain a bit more as to why swirl is not going to increase efficiency in an IDI?
I understand the prechamber's job in terms of combustion. But I would imagine having intake air swirl it's way in would increase efficiency in combustion in combination with the prechamber and the spent combustion swirling it's way out would increase scavenging of the rest of the gasses.
Even in later pre-chamber head renditions, Mercedes decided to have somewhat a shaped chamber..
603 Head
602 Head
Those examples maybe a bit of a stretch in terms of swirl combustion.
Anyhow It maybe hard to shape the combustion chamber on a 617 though because of the shallow water jacket in between the two valves.
.
DeliveryValve,
Swirling in a DI engine helps flow more air past the injector fuel streams which boosts combustion in the cylinder and evens out the temperature distribution.
With an IDI engine you have the jets of combustion gasses from the prechamber mixing the air and spreading the heat out. The prechamber jets are arranged in such a way to cause several counter rotating vortices. Adding swirl to the air in the chamber is not going to enhance the mixing already being done by the jets of combustion gasses in any significant way. If it would they would angle the prechamber ports in a way to promote it. The same thing goes scavenging the exhaust out of the cylinder.
One thing to keep in mind is that it takes energy to cause the air to swirl. Using the intake ports to do it relies on power taken from the crank. The mixing done by the prechamber ports draws power directly from the combustion avoiding energy conversion losses.
The OM603 and OM602 may have more of a chamber in the head to prevent as much air from going into the prechamber. This might have been done to reduce overall combustion gas temps for emissions or to reduce temps for the aluminum head.
If you want to really help an IDI engine by circulating the air before the compression stroke you need to get it to flow through the prechamber somehow. In the 30's NACA did some experiments by having an intake valve in the prechamber. Of course this would require a whole new head to try it with our engines.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - willbhere4u - 08-05-2010
Air swirling also helps air flow pass the intake valves as they open!
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - DeliveryValve - 08-05-2010
(08-05-2010, 11:05 AM)ConnClark ..... If you want to really help an IDI engine by circulating the air before the compression stroke you need to get it to flow through the prechamber somehow. ....
(08-05-2010, 11:40 AM)willbhere4u Air swirling also helps air flow pass the intake valves as they open!
My thoughts exactly. But I failed to convey that message to Conn earlier.
Again, I would imagine getting more efficient flow of air into the combustion chamber would help in getting more air into the pre-chamber through those tiny jet holes.
.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - willbhere4u - 08-05-2010
I'm not sure but I don't thing air really needs to get in to the prechamber but fuel dose need to come out of it!
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-05-2010
I've confirmed the casting numbers on both heads are the same; 617 n/a and 617a.
Casting number: 617 016 03 01. I forgot I had written down all the numbers on that engine when we were parting out the car.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - mk216v - 08-06-2010
(08-05-2010, 11:08 PM)Biohazard I've confirmed the casting numbers on both heads are the same; 617 n/a and 617a.
Sweet, thx! I'm waiting to hear from him now...
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - tomnik - 08-06-2010
The pre chambers are bigger in diameter on the lower part on the turbo...
Tom
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-06-2010
(08-06-2010, 01:59 PM)tomnik The pre chambers are bigger in diameter on the lower part on the turbo...
Tom
Good info Tom. I can understand it affecting running operation, but do you think this would affect a flow bench reading?
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - mk216v - 08-06-2010
Damn, he doesn't have any time to flow them for us...he has 6 kids now and has no time.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-06-2010
(08-06-2010, 07:13 PM)mk216v ...he has 6 kids now and has no time.
Eek! I have NO kids and NO time. Can't imagine having 6 kids right now... I'd be ragged. Don't suppose you know what he would charge for something like that through the shop?
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Syncro_G - 08-07-2010
There's a race shop in Oakland, CA - they tune gassers for track but the owners are mercedes diesel heads. They said they'd set up a flow/grind system for the 617A head but they wanted about $900 in initial setup/tooling fees.
I have a few friends locally who are interested but it's a really awkward arrangement. if we did a group purchase, we'd eat the set up cost but the person who comes after would get the deal (setup paid for)
So we're all kicking back to see who makes the first step.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - tomnik - 08-07-2010
(08-06-2010, 03:28 PM)Biohazard Good info Tom. I can understand it affecting running operation, but do you think this would affect a flow bench reading?
it was just an info, cause you found out that the casting #s are identical.
Maybe they just increased the lower bore for the turbo PC.
Not affecting air flow but an input for those who think of converting a n/s head to turbo.
Tom
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-07-2010
(08-07-2010, 12:24 AM)tomnik(08-06-2010, 03:28 PM)Biohazard Good info Tom. I can understand it affecting running operation, but do you think this would affect a flow bench reading?
it was just an info, cause you found out that the casting #s are identical.
Maybe they just increased the lower bore for the turbo PC.
Not affecting air flow but an input for those who think of converting a n/s head to turbo.
Tom
Still good info to have.
I've been thinking of boring out the holes in the PC, like Jeemu did on his, for more flow. But, I still have to get the head swapped on and all that still. Also, still playing with the idea of getting the head o-ringed. Then there is still the possibility of going in on the head flow settup costs that Syncro_G had mentioned. Bah. Too much to spend money on, not enough paycheck coming in. LOL I may just have to skip the flow testing part and just swap the fricken head on already. Lots to do this weekend to finish getting ready for the roadtrip, lots to do when I get back from Bonneville.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - mk216v - 08-07-2010
(08-06-2010, 07:54 PM)Biohazard(08-06-2010, 07:13 PM)mk216v ...he has 6 kids now and has no time.
Eek! I have NO kids and NO time. Can't imagine having 6 kids right now... I'd be ragged. Don't suppose you know what he would charge for something like that through the shop?
Hehe, I hear ya. I currently have 4 furry kids (ie dogs) and that's enough right now. I can't imagine 6 kids who need the same attention but are also jibber-jabbering. WOW.
The head stuff is a side gig for him as it doesn't bring in enough $ for the shop. He's too busy with sales and building exhausts and such during the day to do anything "uber cool" like heads.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-07-2010
No worries! Never hurts to try, right?
I'm going to swap the head on when I get a free weekend after Bonneville Speedweek. Need a set of heatshields and the tool for the prechamber lock rings, then its on like Donkey Kong!
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - DeliveryValve - 08-10-2010
(08-07-2010, 09:24 PM)Biohazard Need....the tool for the prechamber lock rings, then its on like Donkey Kong!
Diesel911 at peachparts.com makes a good cheap lock ring tool. You might want to contact him.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=282469
.
RE: Performance Diesel Head And Engine Preps - Biohazard - 08-11-2010
Thanks for the link! I'll have to look into that.