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+--- Thread: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... (/showthread.php?tid=1862)
poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-15-2010
Hello,
awhile ago I add some aTF on the fuel as the old tale said it will clean the injectors. I use granville dextron II as they told me at the factory it was a mineral ATF, what is apparently needed.
On the same time I removed the CAT.
The car was not the same and never has been since. After a clean tank of oil I thought it was the CAT removal that messed it up. Wrong!
Yesterday I injected half litre of ATF in a close loop to clean the pump as the car was not itself. Today the poor wee mite was worse
Not reving high properlly, studdering... like fuel starvation...
Damn ATF...
I now have in the lines/ pump some professionnal fuel cleaner, nearly at 100% ratio, and I am thinking of letting it sit like this all night, what would some reckon, is that OK? Or I better start the car and let is mix with the fuel?
Is there anything I can use to clean the pump out of the ATF mess?
Sorry to the MOD, I think it should be in maintenance, not tuning? Oops...
Cheers.
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - garage - 10-15-2010
(10-15-2010, 11:11 AM)Olivier Hello,
awhile ago I add some aTF on the fuel as the old tale said it will clean the injectors. I use granville dextron II as they told me at the factory it was a mineral ATF, what is apparently needed.
On the same time I removed the CAT.
The car was not the same and never has been since. After a clean tank of oil I thought it was the CAT removal that messed it up. Wrong!
Yesterday I injected half litre of ATF in a close loop to clean the pump as the car was not itself. Today the poor wee mite was worse
Not reving high properlly, studdering... like fuel starvation...
Damn ATF...
I now have in the lines/ pump some professionnal fuel cleaner, nearly at 100% ratio, and I am thinking of letting it sit like this all night, what would some reckon, is that OK? Or I better start the car and let is mix with the fuel?
Is there anything I can use to clean the pump out of the ATF mess?
Sorry to the MOD, I think it should be in maintenance, not tuning? Oops...
Cheers.
Olivier
Have you replaced all your filters?
What is this CAT??
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-15-2010
Yes, all filters are OK. Even when this happened awhile ago I replaced the filter and it was the same, no change. I even run the car on diesel, still the same.
I injected some high pressure air backward in the fuel line to clear anything there too.
The CAT is the Catalitic convertor. I gutted at the same time and I thought I was having problems with back pressure etc...
Cheers.
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - garage - 10-15-2010
Your diesel has a catalitic convertor????
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-15-2010
He has indeed.
its a 1997 E300 turbo.
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Syncro_G - 10-15-2010
How far have you driven since running it on ATF?
You might just have air in your IP from changing the filters.
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-15-2010
No air.
I drove it awhile, there is no bubbles. Nothing. All sealed properlly.
The other "thought" is that the ATF moved some crud while cleaning and its now blocking some pipes?
I was told the blockage might be at the fuel pressure regulator? It might be right as this is at high pressure/ loaded/ rev that the car struggle. Where is it? Can I took it off and just clean it or I need to move the pump out of the engine?
Thanks.
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - plurkje - 10-15-2010
ATF is not for injection pumps! I quess you found that one out. You probably created a lot of wear inside the pump by using synthetic automatic transmission fluid. I don't believe there's a cheap way out of here. Consider a new pump. Good luck
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-15-2010
It was a mineral ATF.
How would ATF create wear when its design to prevent it...
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - tomnik - 10-15-2010
if you mean the pressure regulator in the return line from the IP it is located on the side of the IP towards the engine.
But the crud should not get there as this is the return line and the filters are before the IP. Do you have a transparent pre filter?
Run the engine by supplying diesel from a can via disconnected fuel supply line. Don't bypass the filters.
After 20 min with diesel the ATF should be out of the IP.
Depending on how much mud is in the tank it is obvious that the mud is loose and blocs the filters.
Do you have a tank strainer?
Don't focus too much on the IP, look for fuel supply from the tank.
Tom
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-15-2010
Hi Tom,
Dunno what pressure regulator was point out to me?
If the filters are before, as you said, there shouldn't be anything there.
It as something to do with the fuel supply/ pressure?
The tank strainer as been removed, this is why I have injected pressurised air backward the lines as I thought it was something in the pipes. No. All clear there.
I runned the engine on diesel when the bother started few month ago, after the atf/ cat thingy this is why I thought it was the CAT removal that was creating bothers as it was all the same. Even on Dino the car was the same the on Veg.
The tank should be OK as I cleanned it 2 years ago when I had the strainer blocked.
Defenitly all started when I put some ATF in. Went worse yesterday with more ATF injection. Then something is in the pump blocking the pressure,debis, dirt ot gumming from the ATF?
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Mcrae645 - 10-15-2010
Tom is right. Run the motor from a separate can of diesel. It would a good idea to manual check the fuel pressure going into the injection pump with a gauge. How well does it idle? Is it smoking at any RPM?
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-15-2010
No smoke at any RPM ( that I can notice anyway), great idle. Only since the first time I tried some ATF, the car as been poorly. When I mean poorly its that is as became the same as an original E300TD. Before it had the Whoomff! a goog kick in the back when the turbo kicked in. Now its settle... Tammed. Worse the last few days, and worse today ( after the ATF). it got problem with high revs.
The fist time ( I should have say) I inverted the fuel line suspecting a blockage aleardy, feeding with the return, same attitude, tame... This is why I thought it was the CAT removal that was the bother. Nope.
Again today, worse studdering at high rev, I was hoping the "what ever blockage" would be spat due to the fuel demand/ pressure. Nope. Same....
Not sure if I can connect a separate tank to feed it directly, but again, when I reversed the lines it was the same. Now unless the return is also clogged, which I doubt it, this mean the pump as a blockage inside....
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - ForcedInduction - 10-15-2010
(10-15-2010, 11:11 AM)Olivier as the old tale said it will clean the injectors.Myths tend to be exactly that, myths.
ATF is a hydraulic and lubricating oil, not a fuel. Leave it for transmission and steering systems where it belongs.
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - ben2go - 10-15-2010
If the ATF burned thru,it could have gummed up the exhaust valves and turbo.Maybe damaged some sensors.I'm not familiar with the E300,so I am just making a guess at something not all ready mentioned.
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - yankneck696 - 10-15-2010
Just as a bit of info, the "Allfuel" 2 1/2 tons ran fine on filtered trans fluid, if I remember right.
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-16-2010
Thank you all for the replies.
Still wondering how I could de'clogged the pump tho, I am thinking something inside as been dislodge by the ATF and its blocking something... That's a lot of something...
I'll see how it react this morning after the fuel system sat in fuel cleaner liquid all night...
Yep Yankneck, I heard this and also I know that some hydraulic oil ( which must be very similar then ATF) made a wonderfull fuel as well. But who are we to say so
All the best.
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Mcrae645 - 10-16-2010
(10-15-2010, 02:45 PM)Olivier No smoke at any RPM ( that I can notice anyway), great idle. Only since the first time I tried some ATF, the car as been poorly. When I mean poorly its that is as became the same as an original E300TD. Before it had the Whoomff! a goog kick in the back when the turbo kicked in. Now its settle... Tammed. Worse the last few days, and worse today ( after the ATF). it got problem with high revs.
No smoke, great idle, only problem at higher rpms usually is fuel supply to the pump or fuel pressure at the pump. The chance of a blockage in the pump is slim. If the ATF did dislodge something it more than likely would have seized a plunger or an injector.
Without fuel the engine will not make boost and without boost the engine management will not add fuel. So you also may want to look at the turbo system and the boost sensor.
As far as running ATF "Forced" is right. Not the best thing for it. Will it burn it? Yes, I have a Ford tech that I know that runs his early Powerstroke on nothing but filtered ATF. He knows he is shortening the life of his fuel system but he has done the calculations and he thinks he will be ahead in the end.
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-16-2010
A plunger? Where are they?
I had the injectors lowered a wee while ago, all was good there, untill the atf... But one or more could be clogged now?
I have plenty of boost pressure, just not enough fuel in the pods as the poor car is studdering as soon as the fuel demand get highter.
its a wee odd to me?
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Mcrae645 - 10-16-2010
(10-16-2010, 01:54 PM)Olivier A plunger? Where are they?
I had the injectors lowered a wee while ago, all was good there, untill the atf... But one or more could be clogged now?
I have plenty of boost pressure, just not enough fuel in the pods as the poor car is studdering as soon as the fuel demand get highter.
its a wee odd to me?
The plungers are inside the pump. Please ignore them now. More than likely the injectors are fine. Why did you have them lowered? If an injector or a plunger had a problem you would not have a nice idle.
How did you get the ATF into the system? Did you move any of the fuel supply lines? Are they connected correctly? Can you get a fuel pressure gauge to check it when the engine is studdering?
Do you have a boost gauge?
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-17-2010
Hi Mcrae645,
I lowered the injector as I had 2 differents story on good or bad it can be on veg, then I decided to try it and found out myself about this. No change on the car there.
I run the ATF through a close loop directly from the bottle. The feeding line in the bottle, the return line going back into the bottle, untill I burn about 1/2 litre.
All lines are back to their proper connection now, no bubbles.
I got a boost gauge and it goes up to 15PSI. It wobble as soon as the engine start to studder.
Went for a wee spin this morning, when flooring the car it start to studder a bit but still pick up speed( slowly), after 3000 rev this is where its cutting off, studder, especially if I floor it pass the 3000RPM it got troubles getting highter, but if I am easy on the throttle it can slowly goes up.
I cannot get a fuel pressure gauge at the moment and I would't know where to connected? This feel indeed like a pressure/ fuel restriction.
I am going to try a Moli purge in the next few days. Any other suggestons before this would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Einar - 10-17-2010
I only have one question, are your fuel pump dry?
I used oil on my E300D(124 `95), to clean the fuel system.
After this the engine was weaker and weaker, and is leaking diesel on the top.
Still a perfect idle, no noise that should not be there, but no power, much fuel consuption(?), but my only got power at 5000 rpm...
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-17-2010
Yes its dry, I changed the Orings on the delivery velves a while ago.
Cheers.
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-22-2010
Updates.
Got the Moly purge diesel por line this morning, runned it strait into the pump after I purge it with pure diesel.
Strangely enough the car was a wee odd at iddle on diesel, like missing a beat once in awhile?
Anyway, same as before, the car is poorly under load.
When stationary I can rev over 5000rpm and stay there, when under load it start to studder at over 3000rpm.
Any ideas?
What about the lift pump been clogged? Would that be a possibility? Is that easy to remove?
Thank you.
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-22-2010
Updates.
I removed the thingy pictures above. Really messy as fuel and engine oil went on to the alley way where I did it. Not good...
This is just a plunger thingy, nothing I could see, I did not really look into the 2 holes tho but from a quick look all seems squeaky clean.
Car it the same. Then it was not that.
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - plurkje - 10-24-2010
If the lift pump is bad, the result is hard to start after a longer period. Due to the internal leaks of fuel pressure. The cheap way of fixing this is placing one-way valves in the hoses. Did you run you car on poor fuel or veggie oil?
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - tomnik - 10-24-2010
is there a strainer in or near the main fuel filter?
I found such a strainer on a Vito 2,3 turbodiesel and was surprised cause you could not imagine that it is there.
Tom
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 10-26-2010
(10-24-2010, 03:07 AM)plurkje If the lift pump is bad, the result is hard to start after a longer period. Due to the internal leaks of fuel pressure. The cheap way of fixing this is placing one-way valves in the hoses. Did you run you car on poor fuel or veggie oil?
Oh, this is not the lift pump then as idle is OK and re start is OK, well sometimes a little longer to fire but only a second late, nothing major.
One way valves, to which directions? Also those are clear hard pipes, not easy to play with, they would need to be changed with rubber fuel lines.
I am on WVO, this is not the bother tho, the first post stated what as gone wrong and this since the ATF.
Thanks.
(10-24-2010, 05:51 AM)tomnik is there a strainer in or near the main fuel filter?
I found such a strainer on a Vito 2,3 turbodiesel and was surprised cause you could not imagine that it is there.
Tom
All is clean there. The tank strainer, the pre-filter, the filter.
THe lines are also squeaky clean.
Cheers.
Car still poorly tho. Its all OK untill I press the pedal harder, under load after 3000RPM it studder and got bother reving highter, but if I go gently it goes OK. Look like the rack ( I think) is not acting properly anymore???
Cheers.
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 11-15-2010
A little update.
I rebuild the lift pump.
Did the delivery valves.
Got a SOV ( as I broke mine) from Alastair ( thank you, top man)
Car still the same, under load after 3000 it studder...
One think I'll be looking at soon is the pressure releif valve on the return line. This might be the bother as its weak and as discussed on PP it might release too much and the IP is not pressurised....
Olivier
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 11-16-2010
All OK ish now. Just need some little tweakings.
I changed the fuel filter and the car is nearly back to his former self.
With the new L/P, D/V done, pressure banjo that might be stronger then the one I had, and the new filter, all better now.
Yeepee!
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - plurkje - 11-21-2010
(10-15-2010, 12:06 PM)Olivier Yes, all filters are OK. Even when this happened awhile ago I replaced the filter and it was the same, no change. I even run the car on diesel, still the same.
So you replaced the filter twice(?), but were convinced it wasn't the blame. To me this is an exemple of how things go wrong when you're not writing it down the way it is. It took you more then 1 month to find out that the 1e reply on your story already did pin point where to look.
My advise; be more precise.
RE: poorly IP pump after trying the old ATF cleaner... - Olivier - 11-24-2010
The filter was part of the story, but not all of it.
As I said the lift pump / the pressure banjo / the DV have been changed/ repaired.
Also got a SOV from Alastair ( top guy
)Without the above, changing the fiilter was not doing anything as I put a new one in, swap it was an "older one" but still fairly new with no resuts.
The filter was only the last bit at the end that needed attention.