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+--- Thread: water injection gph? (/showthread.php?tid=2149)
water injection gph? - larsalan - 01-17-2011
so, which of these nozzles should I use? my fuel, turbo and engine are all stock.
1,2,3 gph?
they also have a pump that says it's 250psi I think I would use that and all the little wires it comes with for $134
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Water-Injection-Nozzle/c28/index.html
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 01-17-2011
If only one stage, 3gph set for 7psi trigger.
If two stage, 1st 1gph@4psi and 2nd 2gph@9psi.
Put the nozzle in the outlet of the turbo compressor housing (there is a flat spot for it). Do not put it in the intake manifold or you'll just flood #1 cylinder.
You'll need a minimum 3gallon container to last a tank of fuel.
RE: water injection gph? - led-panzer - 01-17-2011
I see you use 6gph total, although yours is very well distributed, how much is too much?
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 01-17-2011
6gph is right on the edge, even with only 35% methanol I can hear the detonation rattle until the upper RPM range. I'm considering downsizing the 1gph port nozzles to 0.75gph (4.75gph total).
RE: water injection gph? - Walkenvol - 01-18-2011
What specifically is accomplished by water injection. Until now, all I've read referenced to it was to clean out from running WVO. I know forced is opposed to WVO so obviously there's another benefit.
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 01-18-2011
(01-18-2011, 08:07 AM)Walkenvol What specifically is accomplished by water injection.
Additional air cooling, additional fuel (methanol) and carbon cleaning.
RE: water injection gph? - BRABUS - 01-18-2011
Forced :
What of these do you think i should use on my om617 superturbo
35, 70, 150, 200, 300, 400, 600, 1000cc/min ??
Going to be a one stage setup.
RE: water injection gph? - BlueCrayfish - 01-18-2011
300ccm.
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 01-19-2011
I had also meant to ask, without a pyrometer, how would you calculate the temp of pressurized air? That is like if ambient air temp is 10c/50f then what would it raise to under (x)psi?
I have been googling for a formula or an online calculator but come up empty handed.
--
I guess it's fully explained here
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/turboflow.html
but I'm too dumb to read it all. Maybe someone can just sum it up. Or have a simpler guide. I guess the volume of the compressed air has a factor in it but that volume should be fairly static. The volume of the intake manifold, turbo housing and one open cylinder?
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 01-19-2011
shit, I have seen that one too. But I don't understand it.
-
when I try to use that calculator I get results saying that at 12 psi and ambient air temp of 10c the increase in temp reaches to 70c.
That would not be close to 100c. I thought we were trying to inject water/meth above the boiling temp of water?
RE: water injection gph? - Walkenvol - 01-19-2011
Hey forced,
My reading on the subject implies the benefit is to keep tempratures down to allow more fuel to be burned which would lead one to think this is more applicable to an engine with the ability to turn up the IP. I've read where you advocate the OM617 is limited by the IP's inability to deliver more fuel. Am I missing something beyond the added fuel of the methanol? How much power in your experience does this add and at what level of boost does your water injection kick on?
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 01-19-2011
It's also claimed that the water you put into a cylinder is not compressible so you are decreasing the volume of the chamber and thereby increasing compression ratio.
And that the way methanol or alcohol burns increases the amount of diesel that is burned. Scientific studies and all. That is to say that without the other type of fuel present diesel will be incompletely combusted.
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 01-20-2011
(01-20-2011, 07:40 AM)Pliskin(01-19-2011, 02:12 PM)larsalan That would not be close to 100c. I thought we were trying to inject water/meth above the boiling temp of water?
The idea isn't to boil the liquid, its simply to absorb heat. That is, increasing the liquid temp from ambient to 70c and causing it to evaporate. Also, methanol's boiling point is 65c.
Quote:And that the way methanol or alcohol burns increases the amount of diesel that is burned. Scientific studies and all.That is false. There is no such "catalytic effect", its purely a marketing scam used by shady sellers.
http://www.labontemotorsports.com/ontrack/DIS_WP.pdf
this is a "scientific study" I was citing. There is even a picture so it must be true.
Also nice to know that meth boils at 65c
Plus the air is pressurized so that is part of the equation too. I guess I'll just have to be satisfied that at 4 psi we can start to vaporize water/meth.
RE: water injection gph? - Spaceraver - 01-20-2011
Larsalan: We inject water/methanol to cool the charge air as much as possible. If it were a gasser engine the methanol would add to the combustible mix and raising the octane number and thus aid the power. In a diesel it's prime job is for cooling and as Forced says, carbon cleaning. The Methanol is a secondary factor. The added water will not be in such a quantity that it is removing significant cylinder chamber volume, so the compression ratio does not go up by much.
Walkenvol. The Methanol is mostly there to keep the water from freezing in the winter, it's basically windshield fluid, not much else. See the wiki page for it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_%28engines%29
And do read his thread on the subject. http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/port-injection-stage-water-methanol-injection-t-1504.html
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 01-20-2011
^ but.....
here is a us patent for water injection systems. That claims to promote "complete combustion".
http://www.google.com/patents?hl=en&lr=&vid=USPAT6698387&id=cksQAAAAEBAJ&oi=fnd&dq=water+injection+turbo+diesel+complete+combustion&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q=complete&f=false
RE: water injection gph? - Spaceraver - 01-21-2011
Ill make the snide comment.. ^What he said. Patents are a good and a curse. Patents for the sake of patents alone is shitty, but to protect something you have spent years to develop and not have somebody steal the idea..
RE: water injection gph? - winmutt - 01-22-2011
Now that we are getting OT. patents are useless unless you have big pockets to defend them.
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 01-22-2011
Well something makes water injection advantageous. Good news just won a 150psi 'coolingmist' shurflo pump on ebay. $72. just need a few more things, check valve, nozzle, switch, tap a hole. Some good weather and free time.
Hope I won't be infringing on anyone's patent.
just kidding, how can you patent blowing water and alcohol into a combustion chamber? I do what I want.
RE: water injection gph? - Walkenvol - 01-24-2011
larsalan - do you plan on injecting the water automatically at a set level of boost or will it water all the time?
How are these systems controlled by the boost levels?
RE: water injection gph? - led-panzer - 01-24-2011
Called a Hobbs switch I believe. this site has some good information
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 01-24-2011
Yeah, I will inject either water or water/meth at 6.5 or 7 psi. We'll see how it goes.
Some asshole keeps deleting my posts - ForcedInduction - 01-25-2011
(01-24-2011, 01:23 PM)Walkenvol How are these systems controlled by the boost levels?
Yes. Exactly what pressure depends on personal preference.
RE: water injection gph? - Walkenvol - 02-02-2011
Instead of injecting water and methanol, could compressed natural gas be injected into the intake manifold?
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 02-02-2011
(02-02-2011, 03:30 PM)Walkenvol Instead of injecting water and methanol, could compressed natural gas be injected into the intake manifold?
http://www.dualfuel.org/Dual%20Fuel%20Engines.htm
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 02-02-2011
(02-02-2011, 03:30 PM)Walkenvol could compressed natural gas be injected into the intake manifold?
No. Any raw fuel injection will cause severe detonation.
W/M works because the alcohol bonds with the water to form a stable bond (hygroscopic) until combustion heat vaporizes it to separate molecules.
RE: water injection gph? - MTUPower - 02-02-2011
(01-18-2011, 08:23 AM)ForcedInduction Additional air cooling, additional fuel (methanol) and carbon cleaning.You had in the past said your WI showed no drop in IAT or a corresponding drop in EGT's- when did that change occur and what precipitated it?
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 02-02-2011
Uh-oh here comes the war.
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 02-03-2011
(02-02-2011, 10:15 PM)MTUPower You had in the past said your WI showed no drop in IATI did not, I do not have an IAT gauge.
Quote:or a corresponding drop in EGT's- when did that change occur and what precipitated it?It never did.
RE: water injection gph? - yankneck696 - 02-03-2011
Quote:
or a corresponding drop in EGT's- when did that change occur and what precipitated it?
It never did. Endquote
How come you didn't get a cooling affect? Did you experiment with different meth levels? I know you put quite a bit of work into your system, was it all for naught?
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 02-03-2011
![[Image: File:Water_vapor_pressure_graph.jpg]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_vapor_pressure_graph.jpg)
Finally, I'm hot on the trail. 1 psi = 51.7149326 torrhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Water_vapor_pressure_graph.jpg
looks like 7psi is right under 400 torr. So, if the intake manifold is 80c that should insure water is in vapor form. I'm kinda scared to put liquid water into a cylinder. The hydrolocking and all. Also that water will expand to 1700 times it's volume when changing to gas from liquid!
How much does an oil like diesel expand to when it's combusted?
RE: water injection gph? - led-panzer - 02-03-2011
(02-03-2011, 08:02 PM)yankneck696 Quote:
or a corresponding drop in EGT's- when did that change occur and what precipitated it?
It never did. Endquote
How come you didn't get a cooling affect? Did you experiment with different meth levels? I know you put quite a bit of work into your system, was it all for naught?
It was for 13 rwhp
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 02-04-2011
(02-03-2011, 08:02 PM)yankneck696 How come you didn't get a cooling affect?I never said I didn't. A reduction in IAT doesn't guarantee a reduction in EGTs, especially since the added heat of methanol combustion offsets most, if not all, of the cooled intake air benefits. "Free power", basically.
(02-03-2011, 11:13 PM)larsalan Also that water will expand to 1700 times it's volume when changing to gas from liquid!That has no effect on power. The water:air volume is far too low for it to produce any measurable increase in pressure.
(02-03-2011, 11:28 PM)led-panzer It was for 13 rwhpBingo. Anything else is bonus-points.
RE: water injection gph? - yankneck696 - 02-04-2011
(02-04-2011, 06:55 PM)ForcedInduction [quote='yankneck696' pid='24151' dateline='1296781346']How come you didn't get a cooling affect?I never said I didn't. A reduction in IAT doesn't guarantee a reduction in EGTs, especially since the added heat of methanol combustion offsets most, if not all, of the cooled intake air benefits. "Free power", basically.
Ok.... I am surely not trolling here, but I wonder why you are against propane & natural gas injection, then?
Ed
RE: water injection gph? - 300D50 - 02-05-2011
Propane/NG will self-ignite slightly before the piston reaches TDC in most cases (due to temperature), so you have the engine compressing a burning mixture for a few degrees, then TDC passes, and the mixture "bounces" back.
Severe cases (engine hot, ember of soot/coke on a valve, etc) you can have a DDT when the piston is just after BDC, or indeed with the intake valve still open.
It can be ok in some instances, but prolonged use can cause issues.
Then again, the stoichiometry of propane is such that it has a very narrow range of flammability in air, so if you were able to "tease" the mixture to right outside that range, you might be good.
Hope that helps explain the issue a bit better.
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 02-05-2011
(02-04-2011, 07:02 PM)yankneck696 why you are against propane & natural gas injection, then?Detonation. Water/Methanol is a sable bond that won't ignite until after its vaporized and the bond is broken by combustion heat.
Propane, NG are raw fuels that will ignite as soon as the compression temperature is high enough or it comes in contact with the prechamber ball.
RE: water injection gph? - yankneck696 - 02-05-2011
I guess I shoulda figured that out, but thanks.
Ed
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 02-06-2011
(01-17-2011, 07:55 PM)ForcedInduction If only one stage, 3gph set for 7psi trigger.
....
You'll need a minimum 3gallon container to last a tank of fuel.
So, will a 3gal/hr nozzle actually use 3 gallons when operating for 1hr?
I have wired and plumbed everything up and just as I tested the setup I went through a half gallon milk jug in about 10 miles.
maybe I will have to put a tank in the trunk. I had planned to jamb a gallon wiperfluid jug in the engine bay but, that might be too small.
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 02-07-2011
(02-06-2011, 05:29 PM)larsalan So, will a 3gal/hr nozzle actually use 3 gallons when operating for 1hr?Yes, more if you run 200+psi.
Quote:I have wired and plumbed everything up and just as I tested the setup I went through a half gallon milk jug in about 10 miles.You should pull the nozzle and make sure its atomizing and the valve is sealing when its off.
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 02-07-2011
your saying it would be siphoning? There is a check valve between the pump and nozzle that should take 6psi to open. The pump is 150psi
I have bought 2 - 2.5gallon jugs of water from the store and plan to put them in the trunk on the sides behind the wheel wells. Then we'll see just how much water is used. Sounds like with it running constantly like on the highway I will be using more water/hr than diesel/hr.
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 02-07-2011
(02-07-2011, 07:28 AM)larsalan There is a check valve between the pump and nozzle that should take 6psi to open.There needs to be a valve to stop flow. A check valve isn't suitable.
RE: water injection gph? - larsalan - 02-07-2011
this is the valve
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/p178/Nickle-Plated-Water-Injection-Check-Valve/product_info.html
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/Water-Injection-Check-Valve/c31/index.html
I guess it says it's 22psi to open. So, there should be no way a vacuum pulled on it by the stock turbo should ever let anything by.
That whole system is acting wonky. Sometimes it doesn't want to pump. gets air in the line or something. And I have a toggle switch that has a led in it and another led both wired in parallel but, neither bulb will light even though there is current running across them. Maybe they burned up. I thought an led could be wired into a 12v system no problem.
RE: water injection gph? - yankneck696 - 02-07-2011
Most LEDs are 3VDC (as remembered from years ago.) there should be a resistor inline for 12VDC.
RE: water injection gph? - Captain America - 02-08-2011
Last time I connected a non 12v LED to a battery it exploded in my face!
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 02-08-2011
Most LEDs have a built in resistor for 12V unless they are specifically listed otherwise.
RE: water injection gph? - 300D50 - 02-08-2011
(02-08-2011, 05:37 AM)ForcedInduction Most LEDs have a built in resistor for 12V unless they are specifically listed otherwise.
Not true, in fact it's the opposite.
Most LED's do NOT have a resistor unless it IS specified.
Automotive LED panel indicators MIGHT have them, sometimes they don't.
RE: water injection gph? - yankneck696 - 02-08-2011
It made him feel like he was right...LOL
Ed
The table below shows typical technical data for some 5mm diameter round LEDs with diffused packages (plastic bodies). Only three columns are important and these are shown in bold. Please see below for explanations of the quantities.
Type Colour IF
max. VF
typ. VF
max. VR
max. Luminous
intensity Viewing
angle Wavelength
Standard Red 30mA 1.7V 2.1V 5V 5mcd @ 10mA 60° 660nm
Standard Bright red 30mA 2.0V 2.5V 5V 80mcd @ 10mA 60° 625nm
Standard Yellow 30mA 2.1V 2.5V 5V 32mcd @ 10mA 60° 590nm
Standard Green 25mA 2.2V 2.5V 5V 32mcd @ 10mA 60° 565nm
High intensity Blue 30mA 4.5V 5.5V 5V 60mcd @ 20mA 50° 430nm
Super bright Red 30mA 1.85V 2.5V 5V 500mcd @ 20mA 60° 660nm
Low current Red 30mA 1.7V 2.0V 5V 5mcd @ 2mA 60° 625nm
IF max. Maximum forward current, forward just means with the LED connected correctly.
VF typ. Typical forward voltage, VL in the LED resistor calculation.
This is about 2V, except for blue and white LEDs for which it is about 4V.
VF max. Maximum forward voltage.
VR max. Maximum reverse voltage
You can ignore this for LEDs connected the correct way round.
Luminous intensity Brightness of the LED at the given current, mcd = millicandela.
Viewing angle Standard LEDs have a viewing angle of 60°, others emit a narrower beam of about 30°.
Wavelength The peak wavelength of the light emitted, this determines the colour of the LED.
nm = nanometre.
Ed
RE: water injection gph? - winmutt - 02-08-2011
Whats low is the level of intelligence involved in the threads I have to keep editing. Keep it on topic or take a vacation.
RE: water injection gph? - ForcedInduction - 02-08-2011
(02-08-2011, 09:46 AM)300D50 true
Thats why its important to know what you're working with.
RE: water injection gph? - Captain America - 02-09-2011
Yeah I wasn't paying attention...