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+--- Thread: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP (/showthread.php?tid=2216)
Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 02-02-2011
I am not sure how this works, but this is one way to find out.
I am curious as to how many members with MW IPs want, (and can afford), a modded IP, and how many members with M IPs want, (and can afford), a modded IP.
I put the "can afford" because I want lots of stuff that I can't afford. Consider this non scientific market research.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - ForcedInduction - 02-02-2011
Little can be done to the MW, the rest of the world uses the M so all the parts and tuning knowledge is for it.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 02-02-2011
(02-02-2011, 05:15 PM)ForcedInduction Little can be done to the MW, the rest of the world uses the M so all the parts and tuning knowledge is for it.
I'd put a 10mm MW up against an M any day. Knowledge is power.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - ForcedInduction - 02-02-2011
10mm has no benefit over 7mm if they don't know what they're doing with the governor or engine.
By your response I can guarantee that your mind is already 100% set on the MW, which leaves this thread defined as "bait", aka, trolling.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - led-panzer - 02-02-2011
Nobody has any dyno proven results with a 10mm pump, until they do the M is still king.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 02-02-2011
(02-02-2011, 06:23 PM)led-panzer Nobody has any dyno proven results with a 10mm pump, until they do the M is still king.
I'm working on the dyno numbers. The car the 10 mm is in is currently buried, literally.
There are 8mm MW elements available as well if one so desires.
(02-02-2011, 06:15 PM)ForcedInduction 10mm has no benefit over 7mm if they don't know what they're doing with the governor or engine.
By your response I can guarantee that your mind is already 100% set on the MW, which leaves this thread defined as "bait", aka, trolling.
Although I do think the MW is a better IP to work with, it is the market that sets the demand. If there are enough Ms to make it worth while then Ms it is. I am just curious as to how many members are in the market and what type of pump they have.
Also technically, I am a Troll as I live under the bridge, the Mackinaw Bridge that is. The Youpers call us down here Trolls. lol
Always a pleasure.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - Biohazard - 02-02-2011
Voted. MW. It's what I have already and what I had for a spare.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - E300TSC - 02-02-2011
I voted but I would add that my vote is for the eM pump...
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 02-02-2011
Their neck and neck. So far it is a close race!
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - winmutt - 02-02-2011
According to Bosch, the MW is technically superior. I believe this is from the versatile applications, ease of tuning and 900bar capacity.
I of course have the M in the 603 so its a winner.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - jonbobshinigin - 02-02-2011
I voted M since it is on cars with a better platform for tuning.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - aaa - 02-02-2011
This is boiling down to an om617 vs om603 deal... m pump on a 617 is a big disadvantage simply because they're harder to find stateside.
So the real question is, how many members want to and can afford to pimp their om617s. It would really help if you defined the "afford to" part.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - dieselboy - 02-02-2011
Define "afford".
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - winmutt - 02-02-2011
(02-02-2011, 10:27 PM)dieselboy Define "afford".
Means and ways to obtain something. Assuming range of 800-2000 dollars.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - 300D50 - 02-03-2011
MW for me, it's what I have, and it looks MUCH simpler to tweak than the M, if you have the tools.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 02-03-2011
(02-02-2011, 11:53 PM)winmutt(02-02-2011, 10:27 PM)dieselboy Define "afford".
Means and ways to obtain something. Assuming range of 800-2000 dollars.
I could not have said it better my self.
Another way to determine if one can afford something is the rule of thumb, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it". Don't mean to sound snotty.
I am taking another look at this because of the issues with some members and the gentleman that they sent their pumps to.
This poll is just a simple fun & way for me and everyone else to get a feel for how many members are competing for resources. I ”think” Tomnik said that he will have a second batch of M elements some time this year.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - George3soccer - 02-03-2011
My 603 gets bombed from a "711" "Big Gulp Cup" and the eM is the superior Big Gulp Cup.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 02-03-2011
LOL!!
I didn't intend for this to be a 61X vrs 60X or one pump is better than the other, but it is funny how naturally competitive we can are. It's all in good fun until someone gets smoked out.
I talked with the owner of the pump shop, where I set the 10mm IP, about renting his equipment or giving him a percentage sort of thing, (I am using a spare machine in the back), but he was not interested because he has enough work and doesn’t want anything to do with the risk, and that includes doing it under his roof. I can do stuff for his son and myself, but that is it.
I still have an angle yet to try as he desperately wants me to sell him the digital interface that I have on his spare machine and I have not yet agreed to sell it to him, but then again, he is letting me use his equipment so I can't get too big headed.
I can build my own machine, but these days I keep saying to myself, "that’s a house payment", when I look at the cost of the parts. Additionally, I want to have an engine on the Dyno so I can do a couple of pulls with each pump. Right now my dyno is configured for a super bike, so I not only have to find a good and Cheep 617a, but I have to build a new stand. No big deal, as long as there is enough work to justify the time and expense to gear up.
I am surprised to see how many members voted. I also thought that it would be a 2 to 1, M to MW ratio, but their really close.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - winmutt - 02-03-2011
I still think a basic bench can be built easily enough for under $500. All you need is a stepper motor, some pipets, some tubing and some elecitrical bits and pieces. Unless there is something I am missing. It can measure delivery quantity at X rpms. Not sure what else is needed.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 02-03-2011
(02-03-2011, 04:23 PM)winmutt I still think a basic bench can be built easily enough for under $500. All you need is a stepper motor, some pipets, some tubing and some elecitrical bits and pieces. Unless there is something I am missing. It can measure delivery quantity at X rpms. Not sure what else is needed.
The problem is it takes quite a bit of torque at high speeds to be able to run the pump through its entire range, say bottom end in the 250 rpm range and top up to the 3000 rpm range. When I did a full load run up to see the fueling curve, the machine I am currently using had a hard time above 2,000rpm, and really could not get up to 3,000 with the 10mm.
You could get away with lower power set up if all you wanted to do was balance the elements and do the governor adjustments on the car. But then again, would you give your pump and elements to a guy with a vice, a drill, and some pipets? LOL.
The proper test injectors will get you to $500. Then there is the temperature controlled fuel and oiling systems. If I was just going to do my stuff, then yes I could get away with a very crude set up. I want to put out a quality and consistent product, plus the right equipment saves time.
I’m interested in work with you to build something for yourself. That would give you the ability to play at will.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - mantahead - 02-03-2011
But then again, would you give your pump and elements to a guy with a vice, a drill, and some pipets? LOL.
The proper test injectors will get you to $500. Then there is the temperature controlled fuel and oiling systems. [/quote]hi,
can your engine injectors not be used as test injectors or is there something special about the test ones?
wayne
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 02-03-2011
(02-03-2011, 06:29 PM)mantahead But then again, would you give your pump and elements to a guy with a vice, a drill, and some pipets? LOL.hi,
can your engine injectors not be used as test injectors or is there something special about the test ones?
wayne
[/quote]
Thanks for the post Wayne
The test injectors are special and can be set to a pressure and balanced to a very fine degree, the goal being to eliminate injector influence to the out put reading.
Part of the set up process is to take an out put measurement of one element and test injector. Then switch the injector and rerun the out put test, the results should be the same, then test the next injector, and so on. This allows any differences in flow to be noted for correction during the element balancing.
IMOP, if your real injectors are in very good shape and balanced very well, then I don't see why you could not use them for your own IP. The test injectors are balanced much closer than the engine injectors, so if one of the engine injectors is popping at a lower pressure, the elements will be balanced to compensate, and as long as the injector stays with the element your ok. But if you change the injector, the balance could be off.
In a nut shell.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - 300D50 - 02-03-2011
So what you're saying is, if one could take an uber-beefy freaking monster stepper, gear it down right so it has enough torque, and keep the RPM at the proper rates, one could tweak a pump?
Drat, I have everything needed but a spare pump and a set of injectors with test nozzles...
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - ronnie - 02-03-2011
have a nema 42 stepper off an old bridgeport series 2 that we modernized.....
I'll vote for MW
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - jonbobshinigin - 02-03-2011
I would be willing to make contributions for someone with the time and equipment to commit to this task. Time being the most valuable resource for most of you I am sure. I am 24 and single so I have the most time I am sure, but I lack in knowledge, experience, etc...Therefore, maybe some of us could send in a used pump, $50, or anything that may be of use and get this show on the road. I know this sounds very Idealistic but, well, it is!
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 02-04-2011
(02-03-2011, 09:22 PM)jonbobshinigin I would be willing to make contributions for someone with the time and equipment to commit to this task. Time being the most valuable resource for most of you I am sure. I am 24 and single so I have the most time I am sure, but I lack in knowledge, experience, etc...Therefore, maybe some of us could send in a used pump, $50, or anything that may be of use and get this show on the road. I know this sounds very Idealistic but, well, it is!
The test injectors are totally different than the engine injectors. I have attached a picture of one type.
If you could vary the motor speed by at lease 1000 rpm, and it had enough torque to turn the IP at the desired Brakeaway speed, then you could do a traditional governor setup. You could use different sized pulleys to get the speeds where you wanted and then vary the speed and watch the rack measurement to see if the fuel is reducing at the desired speed.
If someone found a small lathe, they could use the gear box to change gear ratios. Change the motor with a stronger one,(variable speed would be great), and your almost there.
The element balance can be done with fixed speeds, slow (idle engine speeds), and a good upper-mid range speed, (3000-4000 engine rpm).
Spinning the IP is just one of many things that are needed. Additionally you need the special gauge holders, and special tools to take apart the IP and put it back together. They are pricey to say the least.
I have my own machine/fab shop, with a good deal of machine design and build experience, and I am willing to assist, (donate services), a member that is interested in building their own machine.
Once someone has a running bench, the learning curve gets really steep.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 12-02-2011
If anyone is a good hunter, there is a crushed 300D with the custom 10mm MW I built some where in the Michigan area I think.
I went to the pump shop to say hi and see if the owner wanted to sell the pump, (the drive train blew up on a test drive), as I wanted to use the elements for my 616 turbo.
When I got there the car was gone, so I asked about it and they said a scrap guy came around and offered them $300 for it and the shop owner was sick of looking at it so he sold it to him. Missed it by two weeks!! Oh well.
I asked if he had the name of the company that took the car and he didn't ask. The guy gave him cash and he didn't ask any questions.
The car was silver with blistering clear cote, a decent case of rust as well, tan interior, and a hole in the side of the trans. So if anyone is wondering the yards, you may want to keep an eye out. Good Hunting.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - garage - 12-02-2011
Damn, if i was in Michigan i would be on one SERIOUS mission right now.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - ronnie - 12-02-2011
Yea I would be on the same mission too.
The ip runs at 1/2 half engine speed? so no need to go more then half red line rpm I would assume?
My lathe only gives 550 rpm spindle speed. 16rpm at the slowest. 5hp gear driven. My wifes is only a little south bend, so don't think that will do. She is making noises about a bigger lathe.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - E300TSC - 12-02-2011
I find it a complete hoot that your wife wants bigger, more powerful tools! And I mean that in the friendliest, most envious way!
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 03-25-2012
I have been watching the discussions about the M pump elements, and had a thought. What if someone built a MW that made more "Drivable" power? Would everyone here in the USA still keep kneeling to the M pump Gods? Anyway, just a thought.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - JustPassinThru - 03-25-2012
Is it "just" a thought, or does the question signify possible interest by a Bosch-bench-equipped modder of these hypothetical modded MW pumps?
Incidentally: cool bridge you live under. Much prettier than any bridge in the Seattle or San Francisco Bay area.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - sassparilla_kid - 03-25-2012
I would just like a pump that allowed me to merge with highway traffic in short distances when I get behind someone in a fully loaded van or a little old lady that doesn't go above 40mph on the ramp, leaving me about 40 yards to try and make up the distance before getting hit by big trucks lol
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - aaa - 03-25-2012
There will always be demand for MW from US OM617 people. It's just that nobody is meeting the demand.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - ronnie - 03-25-2012
and US 616 people.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - DeliveryValve - 03-25-2012
(03-25-2012, 04:56 PM)aaa There will always be demand for MW from US OM617 people. It's just that nobody is meeting the demand.
The real issue is access to larger elements and finding units that are affordable.
I think of the 1970's-80's w116/w123/w126 crowd being a lower cost type of folk. So the market is really for folks looking to spend way under a grand for elements and install/calibration for their $1000 or so jalopy. Just sayin...
.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 03-25-2012
(03-25-2012, 06:00 PM)DeliveryValve(03-25-2012, 04:56 PM)aaa There will always be demand for MW from US OM617 people. It's just that nobody is meeting the demand.
The real issue is access to larger elements and finding units that are affordable.
I think of the 1970's-80's w116/w123/w126 crowd being a lower cost type of folk. So the market is really for folks looking to spend way under a grand for elements and install/calibration for their $1000 or so jalopy. Just sayin...
That is my point. Although it does intrigue me how people decide on how much they are willing to pay for something they want based on what they paid for the car, I mean what if some one gave it to them, lol?
I have been modding 10mm elements, but there is a group that you just cant convince that 10mm elements can be set to run in these little engines, so that leaves the 8mm elements that most people are comfortable with.
Regardless of elements used, the total job will be over $1000 with the parts and all.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - sassparilla_kid - 03-26-2012
I spent more money just getting my air conditioner fixed than what we paid for the car, so I'm in for the long haul here. Probably have twice what we paid for the car in just routine maintenance stuff that had been neglected for years, and I'm still not even close to getting all of it done.
Oh and the air conditioner stopped working 3 months later, to so-and-so's at the European Auto place here didn't check for leaks when they charged the system, so the refrigerant all leaked out. Definitely not taking it back over there though, I'll fix it myself or take it somewhere the people are competent
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 03-26-2012
I wonder if a six cylinder MW would fit on a 606?
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - yankneck696 - 03-27-2012
The Perkins Phasor might fit the bill...
Ed
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 03-28-2012
So it seems the market is divided into two categories, those who want/need more fuel, and those that want a more aggressive tune up.
For those who want/need more fuel, new elements are unavoidable, and given it seems that only the 60X guys are looking for serious fueling increases, it is tempting to build a 10mm MW Superpump for a 60X application.
For those who want a more aggressive tune up, new elements would not be necessary, and for the most part even new Performance Governor springs could be avoided to keep the cost as cheep as possible. In this case it would be best to tune the Governor in the car, which requires someone with the knowledge to come to their location or they have to travel, which = cost going up.
The Stock MW with 5.5mm elements can be tuned to run very nicely for a daily driver, larger elements would increase the efficiency and performance, but for an additional cost.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - sassparilla_kid - 03-29-2012
(03-28-2012, 05:38 PM)OM616 The Stock MW with 5.5mm elements can be tuned to run very nicely for a daily driver, larger elements would increase the efficiency and performance, but for an additional cost.
Any ideas on power/performance gains and mileages of the two options?? I'm having trouble seeing how larger elements could increase efficiency
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - yankneck696 - 03-29-2012
Larger elements tuned properly for the same cc's of injection will inject quicker & atomize better, henceforth more efficiency.
Ed
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - raysorenson - 03-29-2012
I would be interested in the same output as a performance tune up but with larger elements to reduce the worry about EGT's.
One of the MW pumps in my driveway fleet belongs to my GF. She's not interested in an EGT sensor installed in her pretty interior, nor is she interested in so much power that she needs an intercooler or a shift kit.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - toyfreak - 03-30-2012
I would be down for a 10mm, but not for a while since I still have to rebuild my engine and finish a long list of other things. Probably be looking for 250-275 lb-ft of torque down low.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 03-30-2012
(03-29-2012, 09:33 AM)raysorenson I would be interested in the same output as a performance tune up but with larger elements to reduce the worry about EGT's.
One of the MW pumps in my driveway fleet belongs to my GF. She's not interested in an EGT sensor installed in her pretty interior, nor is she interested in so much power that she needs an intercooler or a shift kit.
Some free advice,....... If you really like this girl, do not touch her car. No good will come of it. lol....... Seriously!
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - Simpler=Better - 03-30-2012
(03-30-2012, 11:34 AM)OM616(03-29-2012, 09:33 AM)raysorenson I would be interested in the same output as a performance tune up but with larger elements to reduce the worry about EGT's.
One of the MW pumps in my driveway fleet belongs to my GF. She's not interested in an EGT sensor installed in her pretty interior, nor is she interested in so much power that she needs an intercooler or a shift kit.
Some free advice,....... If you really like this girl, do not touch her car. No good will come of it. lol....... Seriously!
Women truly appreciate repairs that start with broken OEM parts and finish with replaced OEM parts in a timely fashion
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - raysorenson - 03-30-2012
(03-30-2012, 11:34 AM)OM616 Some free advice,....... If you really like this girl, do not touch her car. No good will come of it. lol....... Seriously!
I dunno, working on the GF's car seems to be serving me pretty well. You see, her last BF was a politician and all he wanted to do was make promises to it. The one before that a doctor and all he wanted to do was examine it. The one before that was a musician and all he wanted to do was play with it. Then she met me. I tore it up the first night and I've been working on it ever since.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - George3soccer - 03-30-2012
thats a good one.
RE: Poll: Number of MW owners vrs M owners who want a modded IP - OM616 - 03-31-2012
(03-30-2012, 12:17 AM)toyfreak I would be down for a 10mm, but not for a while since I still have to rebuild my engine and finish a long list of other things. Probably be looking for 250-275 lb-ft of torque down low.
The om617 will not be a torquer motor because it is so small. To help get as much bottom end as possible, go to a smaller VNT turbo so it can start building boost at or near idle, advance the camshaft, and advance the IP timing as much as possible, (it will either start clattering bad or wont want to start), and ream the PC holes.