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+--- Thread: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance (/showthread.php?tid=2295)
1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-19-2011
So I just completed installing a HX-35 on my 1999 E300TD. Lemme just say it acts completely different now! It is a bit more laggy at low RPM, but when this thing spools up it comes on like a freight train!
From the feel of the car, it definetely feels faster overall, however I would like to get rid of some of the lag down low tho...I'm thinking of trying out a HE341 or something different on this thing...any thoughts on this?
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - ForcedInduction - 02-19-2011
Its $500 but...
![[Image: supra_2147_28572646.jpg]](http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/supra_2147_28572646.jpg)
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-19-2011
I've seen those! Do they work well? Or are they all talk?
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - yankneck696 - 02-19-2011
That's real nice. Do you put the valve on the inner or outer scroll? I bet somebody could make them cheaper.... (hint hint)
Ed
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-19-2011
Somebody like this guy! I have an entire machine shop at my disposal!
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - dieselboy - 02-20-2011
Did you change your fueling at all? When/if you increase your fueling you will loose some of the lag.
You know some people say that 20psi from a small turbo is the same as 20psi from a larger turbo. Im not one of them.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - ForcedInduction - 02-20-2011
(02-19-2011, 07:39 PM)gen3performance I've seen those! Do they work well? Or are they all talk?Yes they work. Its the same concept as a VNT turbo but less direct. You're basically cutting the turbine housing A/R in half. So with the 12cm housing you'll effectively have 6cm with the valve closed (which is what the "quick-spool" HY30w uses).
(02-19-2011, 09:36 PM)gen3performance Somebody like this guy! I have an entire machine shop at my disposal!Get at it! If you could cut $300 off their asking price you could have a real market. The big limitation to selling them would be if they have any patents on the concept.
(02-20-2011, 02:56 AM)dieselboy some people know that 20psi from a small turbo is the same as 20psi from a larger turbo. Im not one of them.Thats right. Airflow isn't altered one bit by the size of the turbo, its limited by the VE of the engine.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-20-2011
I have changed the fueling on the car. I had the ecu flashed to 215hp by USA speedtuning. In addition to this I made a small box with a toggle switch, resistors, and a potentiometer that allows me to max out the rack on the electronic IP...here is the link
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/full-load-increase-electronic-governor-t-731.html
I dont know what the original wastegate was set at on the car, but this HX-35 is set somewhere around 15-18psi. If the stock turbo was in the same ballpark as 15psi(guessing), then the HX-35 pulls WAAAY harder at 15psi than the stock turbo!
I am going to make one of those plates this week...I already have it drawn on Solidworks and the tool paths programmed.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - ForcedInduction - 02-20-2011
(02-20-2011, 03:55 PM)gen3performance If the stock turbo was in the same ballpark as 15psi(guessing)
The stock turbo peaks at 12psi and is reduced by the ECM as RPM rises to 6psi. That tiny turbo would explode if it were to be pushed to 15psi!
Quote:How are you revving 5500?He isn't.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - mantahead - 02-20-2011
hi,
I have hx35 mounted on my 1998 w210 c250 with 20mm spacer between turbo and manifold to allow for quick spool valve. I will dyno the car with both scrolls open, then i will fit my other spacer which has one scroll blocked off. I will dyno car with each spacer and see the difference. There is videos on youtube of a supra which spools 1000rpm earlier with valve. If your going to make a valve like me you can use engine valve guides for the bushes for the butterfly shaft as they will take the heat and won't seize if enough clearance is left. Remember not to let the butterfly open to quickly or you will get a short delay in boost.
I was wondering if i used electronic pump with 7.5mm elements and your resistor set up, would this increase my rpms? Do these resistors increase rpm?
wayne
(02-20-2011, 03:55 PM)gen3performance I have changed the fueling on the car. I had the ecu flashed to 215hp by USA speedtuning. In addition to this I made a small box with a toggle switch, resistors, and a potentiometer that allows me to max out the rack on the electronic IP...here is the link
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/full-load-increase-electronic-governor-t-731.html
I dont know what the original wastegate was set at on the car, but this HX-35 is set somewhere around 15-18psi. If the stock turbo was in the same ballpark as 15psi(guessing), then the HX-35 pulls WAAAY harder at 15psi than the stock turbo!
I am going to make one of those plates this week...I already have it drawn on Solidworks and the tool paths programmed.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-20-2011
I'm not getting any more RPM out of the engine, it still seems to govern out around 5000 RPM. It just seems to increase fuel up to that point.
The car has been late to shift on a few occasions and the car has not over revved. It just holds around 5000 RPM until the transmission catches up.
I wonder if fooling with the tachometer signal would allow for more RPM?
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-21-2011
Oh! Mechanical pump! I was thinking you had an OM606 with electronic pump.
Is that a stock 617 pump with governor spring mods or will the stock pump go that high? Or is it even a stock pump for that matter?
Just noticed your sig...are you running an auto? Does it still pull at those revs?
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - mantahead - 02-21-2011
(02-20-2011, 08:09 PM)gen3performance I'm not getting any more RPM out of the engine, it still seems to govern out around 5000 RPM. It just seems to increase fuel up to that point.hi,
The car has been late to shift on a few occasions and the car has not over revved. It just holds around 5000 RPM until the transmission catches up.
I wonder if fooling with the tachometer signal would allow for more RPM?
that might work, if the ecu see's less rpm it might rev higher. More resistors needed. lol
Is there no one out there running a big element electronic pump at high rpms on om605/6 ???
wayne
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-21-2011
I'm not sure off hand, but if there is someone doing it I would also like to know!
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - mantahead - 02-21-2011
(02-21-2011, 02:16 PM)gen3performance I'm not sure off hand, but if there is someone doing it I would also like to know!hi,
i have 2 electronic pumps and 1 old cable pump with no alda. I dont know which pump to fit elements to. I am trying to find out of a remapping guy if the tables can be adjusted to run more rpm.
wayne
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - muuris - 02-21-2011
Just looking at boost gauge won't tell boost/backpressure ratio, which is a much better meter of airflow.
(02-20-2011, 08:09 PM)gen3performance I'm not getting any more RPM out of the engine, it still seems to govern out around 5000 RPM. It just seems to increase fuel up to that point.It won't increase fueling as it isn't a gasser engine. Your increase in performance is due to better breathing. Original turbo was chosen to be responsive, the sacrifice in top end performance was meaningless.
Why try to fool ECU's rpm sensor, why not just remap it? Don't see the point of changing turbo and not doing it, as a clear performance increase is just few hundred bucks away..
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - mantahead - 02-21-2011
(02-21-2011, 02:42 PM)muuris Just looking at boost gauge won't tell boost/backpressure ratio, which is a much better meter of airflow.hi,
(02-20-2011, 08:09 PM)gen3performance I'm not getting any more RPM out of the engine, it still seems to govern out around 5000 RPM. It just seems to increase fuel up to that point.It won't increase fueling as it isn't a gasser engine. Your increase in performance is due to better breathing. Original turbo was chosen to be responsive, the sacrifice in top end performance was meaningless.
Why try to fool ECU's rpm sensor, why not just remap it? Don't see the point of changing turbo and not doing it, as a clear performance increase is just few hundred bucks away..
do you know anyone has done this successfully and can run high rpm with remap on om605/6?? Do the tables in the map allow for that much rpm? If i knew someone could do this i would go for it.
wayne
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - tuikku - 02-21-2011
.
Muuris is right, this is pressure-controlled engine.
In orig program fuelling rate is 0mm^3 -> 5400rpm.
But, the program is only software, nothing denies to change it how ewer needed.
The program is not the problem, iron is, always.
If I understand right, the first tuning was made to standart engine.
Because of very small original turbo, you cannot rise the pulling revs over 5000rpm.
As I looked very quickly the program, it seems, that 75mm^3 is possible, and that gives +300hp/5500rpm.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - jonbobshinigin - 02-21-2011
Gen3, I will buy one of those quick spools if you make a batch!
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-22-2011
Let me just clarify what I have done to my car so far.
I first installed a 3 inch diameter exhaust system.
Next, I had the ecu remapped from the stock 177hp/330nm to 218hp/412nm. I did not max out the fueling with the remap because I wanted to stay in what was considered a 'safe' zone of egt's, egp's, etc. The car barely, barely smoked at WOT after the remap.
I then made and installed a variable resistor box that will 'fool' the rack travel on the electronic IP. This box allows me to go to what I assume is maximum fuel output with the pump. I do not go WOT for more than a few seconds with it on. Also, the car would smoke quite heavily at WOT with the box turned up.
Lastly, my most recent upgrade was installing an HX-35 turbo. The mid to redline pull of the car has been greatly improved with this turbo, but the low rpm performance has suffered as well. I do understand that the turbo change has not increased the fueling quantity and the increase in performance is most likely from more of the fuel being burnt. The best indication I have seen to confirm this is that the amount of smoke coming from the tailpipe at WOT+resistor box on is significantly less than it was with the stock turbo.
I hope this gives a better understanding of the cars manners since the turbo swap.
And I also agree...a remap would be the better option to adjust the rpm of the engine compared to fooling the ecu.
The best option would probably be a full remap on a dyno
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - E300TSC - 02-22-2011
Sounds like a good set of mods! Nice job.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-22-2011
Thank you E300TSC. I must say your list of mods is also very impressive!
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - muuris - 02-23-2011
gen3performance, seems I missed your earlier post the last time. Your turbo change makes sense, good thing you're not killing the engine with stock turbo.
tuikku, you should know stock 6mm elements aren't good for 300hp. The best result I know is about 260hp.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - tuikku - 02-23-2011
(02-23-2011, 03:27 PM)muuris gen3performance, seems I missed your earlier post the last time. Your turbo change makes sense, good thing you're not killing the engine with stock turbo.
tuikku, you should know stock 6mm elements aren't good for 300hp. The best result I know is about 260hp.
In orig pump voltage map, the largest fueling rate is 65mm^3.
But there is still also room to increase voltage ~20% without limp-mode, that means still under 5V voltage.
75mm^3/5500rpm means ~300hp, calculate it.
65mm^3/5500rpm is ~260hp..........
So, if you are able to get the full 65mm^3 out from program, you are also able to get more.
If not, you must cheat the program even to get to 65mm^3 level...
There are plenty of limiters.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - winmutt - 02-23-2011
This thread is worthless with out: pics, videos and dyno charts!!!!!!!
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - muuris - 02-25-2011
(02-23-2011, 05:18 PM)tuikku In orig pump voltage map, the largest fueling rate is 65mm^3.
But there is still also room to increase voltage ~20% without limp-mode, that means still under 5V voltage.
75mm^3/5500rpm means ~300hp, calculate it.
Calculations and real life have a difference
A couple of mech pumps have been made by Mynä with 6mm (OM606 stock) elements and they won't give 300hp. Even if you can get enough fuel to theoretically produce 300hp, it won't be injected quick enough to be burnt well. The last mm^3s are just heat and smoke.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - tuikku - 02-26-2011
(02-25-2011, 05:06 PM)muuris(02-23-2011, 05:18 PM)tuikku In orig pump voltage map, the largest fueling rate is 65mm^3.
But there is still also room to increase voltage ~20% without limp-mode, that means still under 5V voltage.
75mm^3/5500rpm means ~300hp, calculate it.
Calculations and real life have a difference
Tuostapa
... Winter was cold, but car is good...
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - muuris - 02-27-2011
(02-26-2011, 05:28 AM)tuikku Tuostapa
... Winter was cold, but car is good...
Starting to get off topic, but I don't see your point. That would be 280hp on 6-cyl and I commented earlier that best I know is 260hp. Both are under 300.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-27-2011
Here's some pics of the install.
http://s776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/gen3performance/E300TD%20HX-35%20Swap/
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-27-2011
Also the car has a check engine light on now. I believe the light is MAF related due to the symptoms. The car will lose power at around 4000RPM on a WOT pull. Moreover, the car is doing some weird shifting at times. I dont have a connector for my Snap on MT2500 scanner to check the codes, but I will be getting one soon.
Is there anything I should be looking at with the turbo wastegate vaccuum accuator that could be setting off a code? All I did was block the vaccuum port on the accuator after the turbo swap.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - E300TSC - 02-27-2011
I know the ECU want's to see 0 boost at level cruise. When you enter a highway, accelerate to speed then hold a fairly constant speed for a little while, the wastegate opens. As long as the throttle position is varying, it won't go into this "cruise" mode.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - tuikku - 02-27-2011
.
There is simply too large difference to actual, and specific boost pressure.
You have there tuned program, where boost pressure ask is rised.
With a lot of bigger turbo, actual pressure rising don´t reach program ask enough quicly.
Restart repairs the situation.
Happens also with vnt-chargers, easy to repair.
Nothing to do with MAF.
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-27-2011
Can you elaborate on this a little? So I should constantly be varying the pedal at cruise speed to prevent the computer from seeing boost?
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - tuikku - 02-27-2011
.
MB is boost controlled.
All the time, when you press the pedal to ask power, or you just drive, you also ask boost pressure.
Program (orig) asks pressure all the time.
If the difference between the realised pressure and the one, program "wants" comes too large -> limp mode.
Big turbo -> slow boost rise, too slow -> too big difference -> limp mode.
Here you have the orig. map, where you can see, what the programs demand is.
Axels are fuelling rate, mm^3 and rpm.
In map there is specific boost pressure, that program wants.
It is ery easy to change anything that need.
![[Image: 1tszdv.jpg]](http://i56.tinypic.com/1tszdv.jpg)
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - mantahead - 02-27-2011
(02-27-2011, 03:38 PM)gen3performance Also the car has a check engine light on now. I believe the light is MAF related due to the symptoms. The car will lose power at around 4000RPM on a WOT pull. Moreover, the car is doing some weird shifting at times. I dont have a connector for my Snap on MT2500 scanner to check the codes, but I will be getting one soon.hi,
Is there anything I should be looking at with the turbo wastegate vaccuum accuator that could be setting off a code? All I did was block the vaccuum port on the accuator after the turbo swap.
have these problems started from you fitted bigger turbo? If so, i had problems with a MAF on a petrol SR20 nissan engine fitted to my opel manta. The problem was caused by air turbulence through the MAF as it was to close to the turbo and because i had increased the pipe size feeding the turbo. It would stop fueling at 4000rpm and wouldn't idle when warm. I know it is petrol but MAF's all work similar.
wayne
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 02-27-2011
I never had the engine light come on until after the turbo swap
What would I need for hardware and software to program the ecu on my own?
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - 300D50 - 02-27-2011
Good luck... it's all secret black-ops to program them...
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - mantahead - 02-27-2011
(02-27-2011, 05:56 PM)gen3performance I never had the engine light come on until after the turbo swaphi,
What would I need for hardware and software to program the ecu on my own?
if this is the same as my 98 c250 turbo diesel the chips have to be removed from the ecu and 'read' and new chips 'burnt' with modified file and refitted. New chips are very cheap but i would have to buy files from remap guy. Although my car does not use a MAF it uses map sensor.
The other problem i had with the sr20 was 'boost cut'. The MAF was seeing to much airflow being pulled through and would cut engine off as i was running over factory boost limit. It was seeing this through the MAF and not a boost sensor. I got around this by using a fuel cut defender which clamps the voltage from the MAF to ecu.
wayne
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - E300TSC - 02-27-2011
(02-27-2011, 06:40 PM)300D50 Good luck... it's all secret black-ops to program them...
Yeah, I sure as hell would love to get hold of the mapping software and a PROM queen or some such device...
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - 300D50 - 02-27-2011
I can burn prom's all day long, the map software is what you become a eunich for...
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - dust - 03-01-2011
How difficult was the swap?
RE: 1999 W210 HX-35 performance - gen3performance - 03-01-2011
It wasn't too terrible. It took me about a week to do working on it a few hours a day. Its just time consuming making everything line up and fit.