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+--- Thread: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel (/showthread.php?tid=2588)
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603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-04-2011
hi guys
my project for a super turbo diesel is ready and is just beginning again.
Yesterday I had my homemade clutch sinter metal installt. finally they hold the power
7mm elements hx40 2.3 bar pressure.
with the performance I was very pleased. brutal acceleration
. but the I need not tell you yes.so today drive and now he is gone. The engine rattles. at low rpm is nothing. when i give "gas" KLACK KLACK KLACK KLACK.
but can not tell what is going on. a storage or at least one pistonshit.
Now to my question
sould i repair it or buy another one?
The engine was a non turbo. it has no oil cooling and no "piston cooling?"
hold the power the original turbo engine?
is the cylinder head the same?
or should I immediately converted to 606?
had a sense that more? or is the expense too great? adjusts the transmission-`?
pffff sorry guys so many question in my head..
In any case, it is: my benz with smoking signs must run again
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Biohazard - 05-04-2011
Sounds like you may have found the limits of a non-turbo 617. Before saying its dead, I would recheck injection timing and valve clearance. If the timing is off, it could cause the CLACK,CLACK,CLACK noise. If it is dead and you can find a turbo 617 to start with, it may be better. The head castings are the same, but the turbo gets a better camshaft, better camshaft towers, sodium filled exhaust valves and stronger rocker pads. If you have access to a 606 engine, I would say go for that! It is a stronger engine and has much more power potential! Good Luck!!
Edit: So I just realized you have a non turbo 603. I'm not sure if the cams, etc are different from a turbo. My bad! I'd still say go for the 606 turbo though!!
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - tomnik - 05-04-2011
check all possibilities for the klack klack klack before you take the engine out and apart.
Try to find a 606 turbo and transfer your experience to that one.
Maybe try to limit boost.
How did the noise happen? Suddenly during hard acceleration or full pedal period? or worse every day a bit more?
Tom
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-04-2011
thanks for your fast answer
yes its a 603 in a w124.
I've already considered the motor into a 190 installed. but I like the 124. but has more weight, but what should....
thought about the timing but why should it not agree more now?
i have always been a klach clack but that is the sharp adjustment of 19 °
says votes pump maker.
that was heard in some videos. and was more quiet at speed and boost pressure. written off.
now it's really loud.
if the 603 is steadfast I would rather take, because everything else fits again. at 606 I belly much different ..
mfg
(05-04-2011, 02:47 PM)tomnik check all possibilities for the klack klack klack before you take the engine out and apart.the clack clack comes directly from the engine block
Try to find a 606 turbo and transfer your experience to that one.
Maybe try to limit boost.
How did the noise happen? Suddenly during hard acceleration or full pedal period? or worse every day a bit more?
Tom
accelerate even after the full throttle I heard the noise.
I will not stop the motor repair if it does not make sense. and he is broken again after 2 exits.
mfg
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - tomnik - 05-04-2011
check your timing, if possible dynamically with clamp and strope.
It happened to me that the pump shaft was not well seated in the timing device and the toothed bore in the timing device was damaged.
When lifting the pedal after a hard acceleration the timing changed and I was about 15 deg ahead.
Btw. you prefer the W201 because of weight but you use a N/A 603 as basic engine??
Tom
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-05-2011
(05-04-2011, 11:38 PM)tomnik check your timing, if possible dynamically with clamp and strope.
It happened to me that the pump shaft was not well seated in the timing device and the toothed bore in the timing device was damaged.
When lifting the pedal after a hard acceleration the timing changed and I was about 15 deg ahead.
Btw. you prefer the W201 because of weight but you use a N/A 603 as basic engine??
Tom
ok thanks time I check the timing.
i drive a 300d w124
I've only played with the idea. 603 or 606 ind a w201 because of the weight.
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Riverstick - 05-05-2011
Disconnect each injector pipe one by one with the engine ticking over...you can determine which cylinder is rattling this way....I've also seen several pre combustion chambers start rattling the way you describe when cross-bar which is mounted inside,becomes loose and rattles at medium to high revs.....this an easy enough problem to remedy without taking off the cylinder head.
With 2.3 bar boost pressure,you might be getting close the to 1200 degree melting point of your alloy pistons....make sure your original naturally aspirated OM603 has piston cooling squirting oil up under the pistons......
W124 is a better balanced chassis and will handle the torque better than the W201
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - tomnik - 05-05-2011
very good point.
Once the cylinder is determined take out the injector and look into the PC if the ball is still there and if it is loose (carefully with screwdriver).
No abnormality then do a compression check (on all cylinders).
Tom
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-05-2011
thanks for your helps!
the klacks are verry loud i thikt ist the connecting rod crankshaft bearings ore something.
but big thanks for your help.
do tomorrow check the compression and disconnect each injector pipe one by one and give then a feedback.
I fear to 99%, the original naturally aspirated OM603 has NO piston cooling squirting oil up under the pistons......
thanks
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - majesty78 - 05-06-2011
Sorry for your problems, but the google translated english is very funny to read *g*
Ich hoffe Du findest die Ursache so schnell wie möglich, Pleuellager klingt auch meiner Meinung nach am plausibelsten :-(
Grüße, Alex
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - dieselmeken - 05-06-2011
According to your explanation, there might be a injector that has seezed. The injector is open all the time, then you get a noise like the rodbearing is broken, but as long as you have oilpressure, im sure there is nothing wrong in the lower parts of the engine.
If you disconnect all the pipes, fill the inlet in the injector up with some fuel, crank the engine, the fuel shall be there, if there is no fuel in one of the injectors, the pressure from the piston has pushed it out = open injector.
Otherwise, do as riverstick wrote, a good tip. Best of luck / dieselmeken
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-06-2011
yes in part, a google translation. But here is the best forum with the best dieselfriends who know what i mean or write
Disconnect each injector pipe one by one.. no difference. same klack klack.
dieselmeken thanks for this i will tcheck this.
btw
I've bought a used motor. 603 960 original turbo.160000km with oil cooler, etc.
I will rebuild it in the next few days.
can i use my cylinder head from the NA? because I had only a 5000km done everything new.
thanks
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - tomnik - 05-06-2011
(05-06-2011, 12:57 PM)hansebanger77 Disconnect each injector pipe one by one.. no difference. same klack klack.
Can you check timing dynamically?
(05-06-2011, 12:57 PM)hansebanger77 can i use my cylinder head from the NA? because I had only a 5000km done everything new.
better keep the turbo head. Not sure if there is a difference in prechambers and valves but the cam shaft is not the same.
Tom
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-08-2011
Can you check timing dynamically?
no i have a tool for the IP with LED. where i can see the start of the injection. and then i see Grad on the plate in front..
better keep the turbo head. Not sure if there is a difference in prechambers and valves but the cam shaft is not the same.
sure the camshaft? no matter i could swap it..
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - tomnik - 05-08-2011
dynamically you check begin of injection. You checked begin of delivery which is not the same (depending on pop pressure of the injectors).
On top the position of the notch that lights up the LED has to be fixed by the one who assembled the pump, no 100% guaranty that this is correct to the elements.
Keep the turbo head with the turbo engine (and sell the N/A engine or just the head).
Tom
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - dieselmeken - 05-08-2011
(05-08-2011, 05:25 AM)tomnik dynamically you check begin of injection. You checked begin of delivery which is not the same (depending on pop pressure of the injectors).Always 100% at my shop. (OT Sorry)
On top the position of the notch that lights up the LED has to be fixed by the one who assembled the pump, no 100% guaranty that this is correct to the elements.
Keep the turbo head with the turbo engine (and sell the N/A engine or just the head).
Tom
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - jeemu - 05-08-2011
(05-06-2011, 09:44 AM)dieselmeken The injector is open all the time, then you get a noise like the rodbearing is broken, but as long as you have oilpressure, im sure there is nothing wrong in the lower parts of the engine.Here is picture what bearing may look a like still good oil pressure.
![[Image: img1655137.jpg]](http://kuva1.kuvablogi.com/iso/img1655137.jpg)
Just kalak klak klak
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-09-2011
(05-08-2011, 04:27 PM)jeemu(05-06-2011, 09:44 AM)dieselmeken The injector is open all the time, then you get a noise like the rodbearing is broken, but as long as you have oilpressure, im sure there is nothing wrong in the lower parts of the engine.Here is picture what bearing may look a like still good oil pressure.
Just kalak klak klak
the timing is the same as bevore.
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - dieselmeken - 05-09-2011
(05-08-2011, 04:27 PM)jeemu(05-06-2011, 09:44 AM)dieselmeken The injector is open all the time, then you get a noise like the rodbearing is broken, but as long as you have oilpressure, im sure there is nothing wrong in the lower parts of the engine.Here is picture what bearing may look a like still good oil pressure.
Just kalak klak klak
Ok I can be wrong, One time I thought I was wrong, and that was wrong also.
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-16-2011
This is my KLACK KLACK KLACK
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - yankneck696 - 05-16-2011
Is that one of them new fangled split beam connecting rods?
Well, at least ya found it.
Ed
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Biohazard - 05-16-2011
HOLY. CRAP. That is amazing! Heh, good work man!
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - yankneck696 - 05-16-2011
I'm gonna guess that the crank might need to be turned a bit? Otherwise, can the head be saved?
Ed
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Riverstick - 05-17-2011
Can you weld it......or superglue it together perhaps!
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - majesty78 - 05-18-2011
Where do the damages on piston crown come from?
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-18-2011
(05-16-2011, 07:34 PM)yankneck696 I'm gonna guess that the crank might need to be turned a bit? Otherwise, can the head be saved?
Ed
the head is ok but i take a other von the turbo engine what i work to rebuild..
(05-17-2011, 04:32 PM)Riverstick Can you weld it......or superglue it together perhaps!
I try to play with hose clamps
(05-18-2011, 01:20 AM)majesty78 Where do the damages on piston crown come from?
that would interest me.
above the small holes in the pistons. I think the small metal pieces were drawn. from my previous selfmade intake.
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-19-2011
hi
Should I get tested the injectors before install? the turbo has Anhören
labeled now 135bar not 115bar ?
thx
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - tomnik - 05-20-2011
pop pressure for turbos is 135 bar.
At least for checking the spray pattern you should test the injectors before installing them.
You mean with your self made intake you got some pieces in the cylinder that caused the damage?
Tom
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-20-2011
(05-20-2011, 12:09 AM)tomnik pop pressure for turbos is 135 bar.
At least for checking the spray pattern you should test the injectors before installing them.
You mean with your self made intake you got some pieces in the cylinder that caused the damage?
Tom
ok i will test it.
yes i mean. (the holes in the pistons) but i dont know.
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-20-2011
(05-20-2011, 12:44 AM)hansebanger77(05-20-2011, 12:09 AM)tomnik pop pressure for turbos is 135 bar.
At least for checking the spray pattern you should test the injectors before installing them.
You mean with your self made intake you got some pieces in the cylinder that caused the damage?
Tom
ok i will test it.
yes i mean. (the holes in the pistons) but i dont know.
all injectors are ok
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-28-2011
so my project is finished. halfway. I could not test properly because it's raining already 2 days.
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 05-30-2011
I just made a test drive
spinning tires in third gearturbo spool at 4000rpm late does make 2.2 bar and occasionally more.
how much pressure I can drive without something breaks again?
man can hardly hold back ..
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 08-16-2011
hello guys!
It's that time again .. my motor is scrap. 2nd cylinder fully rubbed.
I often drive with my car and thought he is stable since the rebuild.
I furh often fast and never had problems. after passage of a hill on the highway 250kmh I have only 5 cylinders. just thought head gasket. but unfortunately.
any one who has an honest opinion to a OM603 400hp +
What's wrong? Many people write that the 400hp engine is stable.
I've already invested a lot and am very nerfed.
I'm still useable infected by this abnormal performance. and am wondering what I should do now? `603 again? 2000km later everything in the ass. 606 would also be an option. But he will stand it? I'd also need a lot of new things. turbo exhaust manifold, intake manifold intercooler oil cooler. customize everything.
When I think of the young had the video to the w123 with 606 T tubo he says the engine has never been open! all stock? I can not believe it. or does so much more from the seriously?
I want your honest opinion and experience it.
thank you
the material-killer
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - jonbobshinigin - 08-16-2011
Were the 603 cylinders for NA or for a Turbo?
I have heard that the Turbo engine will hold 400HP, but not the NA.
Do you know how many HP you are making? You may want to try putting 606 rods into the 603.
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Riverstick - 08-16-2011
What is actually after failing on the engine this time?
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 08-17-2011
(08-16-2011, 02:58 PM)jonbobshinigin Were the 603 cylinders for NA or for a Turbo?
I have heard that the Turbo engine will hold 400HP, but not the NA.
Do you know how many HP you are making? You may want to try putting 606 rods into the 603.
after my first injury, it was then a complete turbo engine.
Unfortunately, there's always something in the meantime come. Unfortunately I was never on the test stand.
I think though that there were over 400. I also think that my compression was too high. is was an original mercedes replacement block. was planned and the cylinder head was also because I make all things new. 2.5bar boost pressure.
(08-16-2011, 04:30 PM)Riverstick What is actually after failing on the engine this time?
only 2. zylinder. all other are ok... damn
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Riverstick - 08-17-2011
Check your piston cooling jet underneath number two piston.....it looks like it wasn't doing its job properly....have you an Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge installed?....if not,you might want to install same and keep the EGT's under 1200 degrees....One thing is for sure is that heat caused your failure.....at 156mph at Wide Open Throttle,your OM603 was giving her all.....I wouldn't be disillusioned by this failure though....If you can keep her cool....she will continue to give you intoxicating power....reliably
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 08-18-2011
thank you very much!
Unfortunately I have not mounted etg. how can I check on the piston cooling jet best? just visually? I can not start now. is the heat better with a firing order manifold?.
I can throw away the engine. a replacement engine is cheaper than new pistons and grinding work ..
should i try again the 603, or try one 606?
the question is how much better this is 24v ..
priced and of course a different league. and many different parts exhaust manifold, intake everything else .. and can break as well.
thx
hans
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - mantahead - 08-18-2011
hi,
i have to agree with riverstick, an egt gauge is a must when pushing an engine like this. It may have saved this engine. It is a very important gauge.
I would go for a 606, you have your pump and turbo. Make an exhaust manifold and fit egt gauge and let her rip.
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 08-19-2011
yes you are right. it was my fault that I had no temperature gauge.
So you would like to take the 606 not 603 again.
Unfortunately there are any questions open
gearbox and clutch fits.?
stock oil cooler fits?
to take One used 606 from use car dealer without opening it, rebuild head gasket, other gaskets etc....is that good? or I have to rebuild everything from scratch? no man kann see ind the engin what is happend the last years. with the engine man can make a lucky hand or not.
I can not build manifold myself. perhaps a friend. where there is a plate that fits on the head. or a complet manifold. my hx40 is t3 flange. better i schould get t4?
Intake original use?
what injectors? pop pressure? timing ...
boooaa me boils the brain.
holds the 606 in the end more power ..
thx.
hans
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Riverstick - 08-19-2011
Hone your block....replace your piston...install an EGT gauge and drive on.....just don't let her get above 1200degrees when you're letting her roll. OM606 con rods are supposed to be stronger....not too sure about the dimensions though. If you try to rebuild another engine....it takes a huge amount of time and money.....what you have got is already rebuilt and a known quantity....and seemed to be performing excellently before getting hot. If heat is an issue at a later stage,then you can trick around with water mist....bigger intercoolers...etc....it's all part of the research and development procedure with these projects.
One thing I would seriously consider,if I were you,is Cermaic coating the top of the pistons and teflon coating the sides...the coat is 200-300 euros and the benefits are immense...there must be several companies in the fatherland able to perform this service for you.
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 08-20-2011
I've tried a Teflon coating over the motor oil. I think that this is already a wonderful thing.
believe it not, when I hone and new piston engine, piston rings connecting rod bearings, etc. is more expensive than a used motor .. other hand, I know what I used.
I think I must remain strong. which solution should I take ..
Many thanks
Hans
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Riverstick - 08-20-2011
You can hone yourself with a honing tool.. http://www.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.kierans-engines.com/honing3.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.kierans-engines.com/Petter_PAZ1.htm&h=480&w=640&sz=133&tbnid=caQl2PsfToXg5M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhoning%2Btool%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=honing+tool&docid=Vd2rZYPbINhcuM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Q5lPTsD3G8nNhAef5M3sBg&sqi=2&ved=0CFEQ9QEwBQ&dur=156 .... the damaged on the cylinder only looks superficial....Replace the damaged piston and rings(number 2)....hone all other cylinders and reassemble everything....Best case scenario is it works okay....and you have only invested time and a few hundred euros
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 08-20-2011
The damage is sometimes very deep. I think I need an oversize pistons. but only one is not good i think.
mfg
hans
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Volker407 - 08-20-2011
get another OM603, you already got all the parts as you pointed out yourself.
Put it in and then drive it with normal power for a certain time and look what the EGT´s do so you get used to it.
When you start making power start with less turbo pressure. Over 1,5-2,0bar turbo pressure you might need a thicker head gasket.
It would make sense to measure combustion chamber/prechamber pressure.
Gruß
Volker
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - hansebanger77 - 08-20-2011
(08-20-2011, 08:14 AM)Volker407 get another OM603, you already got all the parts as you pointed out yourself.
Put it in and then drive it with normal power for a certain time and look what the EGT´s do so you get used to it.
When you start making power start with less turbo pressure. Over 1,5-2,0bar turbo pressure you might need a thicker head gasket.
It would make sense to measure combustion chamber/prechamber pressure.
Gruß
Volker
danke das wird warscheinlich de bessere lösung und vorallem die günstigere sein. ich denke auch das ich viel zu viel verdichtung hatte..
mfg
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Hercules - 08-20-2011
(08-17-2011, 06:35 PM)Riverstick Check your piston cooling jet underneath number two piston.....it looks like it wasn't doing its job properly....have you an Exhaust Gas Temperature gauge installed?....if not,you might want to install same and keep the EGT's under 1200 degrees....One thing is for sure is that heat caused your failure.....at 156mph at Wide Open Throttle,your OM603 was giving her all.....I wouldn't be disillusioned by this failure though....If you can keep her cool....she will continue to give you intoxicating power....reliably
If high egt was cause of this,Why only one cyl. showing damage? Must determine if going to be successful in rebuild. IE-Cyl. running to rich-lean,piston to cyl. clearances to tight,exhaust restricted that cyl.??
Good luck, keep us posted
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Riverstick - 08-20-2011
(08-20-2011, 01:22 PM)Hercules [quote='Riverstick' pid='32793' dateline='1313624159']
If high egt was cause of this,Why only one cyl. showing damage? Must determine if going to be successful in rebuild. IE-Cyl. running to rich-lean,piston to cyl. clearances to tight,exhaust restricted that cyl.??
Good luck, keep us posted
There are a variety of reasons for an overheating engine to pick up on just one cylinder Hercules....given some more time and heat...then all others will follow
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Hercules - 08-21-2011
I agree 100% Rverstick,there are a variety of reasons,And those items should be investigated,before just going forward.Have seen many repairs made, only to have fail 2,3,4,5,6 times because the prevailing thought was that there was only one problem.
IE In One overheating engine,which had returned to the Mbz shop for the third time and each time some thing more was found,to be the cause and was a part of that problem, (thirteen) additional items were found by a good tech. that were all part of the overheating problem. My point being,be extremely through to have the most success. I Sure would be depressed if it were me to do an engine again for something that was missed. Just trying to help.!!!
RE: 603912 dead new build superturbodiesel - Hercules - 08-21-2011
I agree 100% Rverstick,there are a variety of reasons,And those items should be investigated,before just going forward.Have seen many repairs made, only to have fail 2,3,4,5,6 times because the prevailing thought was that there was only one problem.
IE In One overheating engine,which had returned to the Mbz shop for the third time and each time some thing more was found,to be the cause and was a part of that problem, (thirteen) additional items were found by a good tech. that were all part of the overheating problem. My point being,be extremely through to have the most success. I Sure would be depressed if it were me to do an engine again for something that was missed. Just trying to help.!!!