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+--- Thread: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump (/showthread.php?tid=2800)
368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 07-19-2011
hi guys,
i have been busy the last two months working with my w202 c250 turbodiesel. I think i have reached the end of the road with my electronic pump. I have had all known limits removed from the ecu including torque limiters and rev limiters and still it won't rev past 5500rpm. I know the engine may not rev much over 6000 without cams etc but on the dyno it starts cutting fuel at 4900rpm although it will rev to 5500. I can make 300hp on a standard ecu map with torque limits removed. If i fit a potentiometer between pins 6 and 7 on the pump harness it steps up the idle and makes more smoke and increases to 368 hp. I got the remap guy to add more fuel to the map and i run her with the potentiometer as well and she comes on boost earlier and then SHUTDOWN. The engine completly shuts down and stalls.
I don't like running this with a potentiometer as it sounds very lumpy and sounds nearly of a cyclinder but the EGTS dont rise over 450c while drifting.
I was out drifting for the first time and had another problem with her going into a limp mode and only reving to 4500rpm while down in power.
I think the only way forward is mechanical pump and throw that ecu over my shoulder. How much torture can one take?
Everyone has told me electronic pump will work if remapped etc but i have never seen this proof.
I would like to hear everyones views on electronic pump verses mechanical.
ps. I suppose 368hp is a fair achievement from an electronic pump.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - E300TSC - 07-19-2011
Wayne, in my opinion, the electronic pump should be every bit as capable as the mechanical one since it shares the business end with the M pump. When it gets down to it, the rack is identical and both pumps ultimately move the rack and deliver the fuel.
It sounds like things like RPM limits, etc... need to be addressed in the program.
I would be curious to see the results of the pump on a calibration machine at full rack travel just to see how much fuel it was delivering.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - winmutt - 07-20-2011
IIRC the electronic pumps are PWM controlled no?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 07-20-2011
(07-20-2011, 10:07 AM)winmutt IIRC the electronic pumps are PWM controlled no?yea pwm controlled by the ecu, I can't get anymore rpm.
Would it be any help if I lenghtened th rod on the solonoid to give more rack travel
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - 300D50 - 07-20-2011
Rack sensor mod?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - winmutt - 07-20-2011
(07-20-2011, 11:40 AM)300D50 Rack sensor mod?
This would make the most sense. Does the 605 have the same rack sensor that the non electronic IP's have? Seems like a simple resistor? might do the trick.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 07-20-2011
(07-20-2011, 12:34 PM)winmuttsorry, what is the rack sensor on the non electronic ip like.(07-20-2011, 11:40 AM)300D50 Rack sensor mod?
This would make the most sense. Does the 605 have the same rack sensor that the non electronic IP's have? Seems like a simple resistor? might do the trick.
The electric one has a square metal plate on the end of the rack. I was wondering if bending or moving it slightly, only this will give false readings right through the range.
I have tried resistors and can't get more rpm, only more diesel.
(07-19-2011, 07:49 PM)E300TSC Wayne, in my opinion, the electronic pump should be every bit as capable as the mechanical one since it shares the business end with the M pump. When it gets down to it, the rack is identical and both pumps ultimately move the rack and deliver the fuel.hi, the remap guy has removed rpm limits and got me from 4500 to 5500 but he can't find anything else.
It sounds like things like RPM limits, etc... need to be addressed in the program.
I would be curious to see the results of the pump on a calibration machine at full rack travel just to see how much fuel it was delivering.
The other problem i see is the standard MB map sensor is probably a 3 bar map sensor which will only read 2 bar positive pressure. I am running 2.6 bar so how can one get around this?
Anyone know what bar a standard map sensor is?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - randomdude - 07-20-2011
very neat indeed! got any links/vids?
im sure with a little google research you can figure out what cars use higher rate MAP sensor's and then maybe get lucky enough to find one at the JY/ local parts house.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - E300TSC - 07-20-2011
(07-20-2011, 04:16 PM)mantahead hi, the remap guy has removed rpm limits and got me from 4500 to 5500 but he can't find anything else.
The other problem i see is the standard MB map sensor is probably a 3 bar map sensor which will only read 2 bar positive pressure. I am running 2.6 bar so how can one get around this?
Anyone know what bar a standard map sensor is?
I don't think the MAP sensor is a problem unless it defaults to a lower signal voltage if you exceed it's top pressure. I believe that it simply delivers the full signal voltage when the lower pressure is achieved and stays there as boost rises.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - Captain America - 07-21-2011
There is only 1, 2, and 3 bar map sensors that I know of...
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - Volker407 - 07-21-2011
Did you think of using a Megasquirt ECU system? You could try to use the air throttle actuator to control the rack. Or use the original rack actuator with a megasquirt pwm-signal.
Does the pump in the W202 have a mechanical rpm limiter?
Gruß
Volker
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 07-21-2011
(07-20-2011, 06:22 PM)randomdude very neat indeed! got any links/vids?
im sure with a little google research you can figure out what cars use higher rate MAP sensor's and then maybe get lucky enough to find one at the JY/ local parts house.
here is a video link of drifting first time.
<iframe width="425" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/dB0Hqdj2bLw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
(07-21-2011, 02:22 AM)Volker407 Did you think of using a Megasquirt ECU system? You could try to use the air throttle actuator to control the rack. Or use the original rack actuator with a megasquirt pwm-signal.Think it is controlled by rack position sensor which sends feedback to ecu, could megasquirt control this? Unless the solenoid in the back of the pump is not physically long enough?
Does the pump in the W202 have a mechanical rpm limiter?
Gruß
Volker
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - 300D50 - 07-21-2011
(07-21-2011, 12:41 AM)Captain America There is only 1, 2, and 3 bar map sensors that I know of...
I can get 4 or 5 bar possibly, I'll have to check with Freescale.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 07-21-2011
(07-21-2011, 03:12 PM)300D50do you think this 5 bar would be compatibile with MB ecu?(07-21-2011, 12:41 AM)Captain America There is only 1, 2, and 3 bar map sensors that I know of...
I can get 4 or 5 bar possibly, I'll have to check with Freescale.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - E300TSC - 07-21-2011
I think with the high bar MAP sensors, you run the risk of lowering your signal voltage. As I understand it, the voltage runs from 0-5v or there about. So, if you blow 3 bar into a 2 bar sensor, you get 5v. If you blow 3 bar into a 5 bar sensor, you get about 3v.
At least that's my understanding.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - drumbreda - 07-22-2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0Hqdj2bLw&feature=player_embedded
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - Captain America - 07-22-2011
Yeah you would need to rescale the ECU for a map sensor change...
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 07-22-2011
(07-22-2011, 04:22 PM)drumbreda http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0Hqdj2bLw&feature=player_embeddedThanks lad for the proper video link. There are about 12 videos in total, you will see them listed when you watch this one.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - 300D50 - 07-23-2011
You could try a Freescale MPX5700ASX, that's a 7 bar sensor with a 5V output.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 07-23-2011
(07-23-2011, 02:19 AM)300D50 You could try a Freescale MPX5700ASX, that's a 7 bar sensor with a 5V output.would my ecu need rescaled to work with this?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - 300D50 - 07-23-2011
Yes, changing to any non-oem MAP sensor would require a rescale of the ECU.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 07-23-2011
hi,
on the other hand if i remove my 7.5mm elements from the electronic pump and fit them to the mechanical pump i have, how hard will it be to get over 5500rpm? Can i get this from the adjusting screws or will i need to change the governor springs or modify the weights?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - jeemu - 07-23-2011
If you like i can sell you my 8mm Myna Special pump.
Dynod 550hp 175fueling, max is 225
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 07-23-2011
(07-23-2011, 04:02 PM)jeemu If you like i can sell you my 8mm Myna Special pump.hi Jeemu, if i had some money sitting free i sure would buy that pump, i would love to but things are tight at the minute.
Dynod 550hp 175fueling, max is 225
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-05-2011
Hi,
just fired up the car on the old skool om602 pump with the 7.5mm elements. Idle is lumpy because the timing is out 1 tooth retarded. I have just figured out the pointer on this pump must be out. I fitted this pump before when it had 5.5mm elements and had the same problem. Then i fitted electronic pump with 7.5mm, so i have realised i could have made more power on electronic pump by moving pump 1 tooth.
Now i realise when i first fitted om602 pump i had to take it off and move 1 tooth, then i fitted electronic pump and it has been off timing 1 tooth.
Tomorrow i will remove om602 pump and move 1 tooth and re-fit. Its reving to 5400rpm first hit but slow to return to idle. This pump has no alda.
To me all this doesn't make sense. When i was reving to 4500rpm with electronic pump it made 240hp with full advance on pump adjuster slots.
When i removed it and advanced 1 tooth it made 266hp when fully retarded on the adjuster slots.
This was proven on the dyno and this was max power for both tooth positions, with max power being made on 1 occasion on full retard on the slots and max power on full advance on the other.
sorry if this sounds confusing.
You would nearly think i missed a tooth in between.
wayne
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - aaa - 08-05-2011
I was wondering how you manage to move the pump exactly one tooth.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-05-2011
(08-05-2011, 05:59 PM)aaa I was wondering how you manage to move the pump exactly one tooth.hi
remove pump and align pump pointer just away from centre of hole when re-fitting, may not sound too accurate but it works for me.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - Riverstick - 08-06-2011
Spill time it to 24 degrees before TDC....I did this before on a 310D Bremen van to get the timing correct as the pointer inside the governor housing was in the wrong position......
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-06-2011
(08-06-2011, 12:46 AM)Riverstick Spill time it to 24 degrees before TDC....I did this before on a 310D Bremen van to get the timing correct as the pointer inside the governor housing was in the wrong position......hi,
this method didn't work for me on the electronic pump because of not enough rpm signal to open the rack, so no diesel would come out.
But i must try this now on mechanical pump, thanks.
So if i had 24degrees btdc spill timing what would this be on strobe light? Would it be much different?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - Riverstick - 08-07-2011
Hi Mantahead....Can't really say on the strobelight as I found differences between different makes and models of diesel timing lights when I did experiment with them...I used to always remove the delivery valve from #1 and spill time from there...it takes a little time as a lousy milimeter or less in the movement of the injector pump can make a huge difference to an engine and its performance.
Alternatively....if your governor arm hasn't been tampered with....you can set the pump at 15 dgrees ATDC using the Mercedes factory recommmended method....using the Mercedes tools(locking clamp for the pump injector arm and a timing light(not strobe) for the finite adjustment).....any Mercedes independent would have this or if you're well in at the main dealer,they may lend it to you
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-07-2011
Hi, my timing was 5 degrees btdc so my pointer is out about 20 degrees. So I set crank at 5 degrees btdc and removed the pump. Then I turned pump to pointer and refitted, this give me back my 20 degrees. Checked it and now I have 25 degrees btdc with drip method and strobe
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - Riverstick - 08-07-2011
And how does it perform now Wayne?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-07-2011
(08-07-2011, 03:57 PM)Riverstick And how does it perform now Wayne?hi,
it sounds a lot better now with nice diesel knock and the pump is near the middle of the slots so i have plenty of adjustment each way. I can fine tune it on the dyno for maximum power.
It is a little slow to return to idle after:
7.5mm elements
inline electric pump
2 turns diesel quantity
1 turn on torque capsule
2 turns full load quantity
2 turns back on throttle stop
Maybe got a bit carried away for first adjustment.
Although i have no alda.
Do you know how myna fit that wastegate actuator and leave it independant from the stopper? It has to help with return to idle.
How could i leave adjuster screws coming out through the back cover for external adjustment, how would they seal?
No inlet manifold on yet to i get pump better set up.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - Riverstick - 08-07-2011
(08-07-2011, 04:48 PM)mantahead(08-07-2011, 03:57 PM)Riverstick And how does it perform now Wayne?hi,
it sounds a lot better now with nice diesel knock and the pump is near the middle of the slots so i have plenty of adjustment each way. I can fine tune it on the dyno for maximum power.
It is a little slow to return to idle after:
7.5mm elements
inline electric pump
2 turns diesel quantity
1 turn on torque capsule
2 turns full load quantity
2 turns back on throttle stop
Maybe got a bit carried away for first adjustment.
Although i have no alda.
Do you know how myna fit that wastegate actuator and leave it independant from the stopper? It has to help with return to idle.
How could i leave adjuster screws coming out through the back cover for external adjustment, how would they seal?
No inlet manifold on yet to i get pump better set up.
I do remeber tweaking the injector pump in an old naturally aspirated OM603 years ago and running into the
slow to return to idle problem.....I had to slacken the fuel delivery stud a tad to get her to tick over correctly....
By the way...how did you balance the delivery of the injector pump after fitting the 7.5mm elements?
I think there's a post on here somewhere where the contributor retrofitted the adjusting screws to the external rear cover of the pump sucessfully....
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-07-2011
(08-07-2011, 05:25 PM)Riverstickhi,(08-07-2011, 04:48 PM)mantahead(08-07-2011, 03:57 PM)Riverstick And how does it perform now Wayne?hi,
it sounds a lot better now with nice diesel knock and the pump is near the middle of the slots so i have plenty of adjustment each way. I can fine tune it on the dyno for maximum power.
It is a little slow to return to idle after:
7.5mm elements
inline electric pump
2 turns diesel quantity
1 turn on torque capsule
2 turns full load quantity
2 turns back on throttle stop
Maybe got a bit carried away for first adjustment.
Although i have no alda.
Do you know how myna fit that wastegate actuator and leave it independant from the stopper? It has to help with return to idle.
How could i leave adjuster screws coming out through the back cover for external adjustment, how would they seal?
No inlet manifold on yet to i get pump better set up.
I do remeber tweaking the injector pump in an old naturally aspirated OM603 years ago and running into the
slow to return to idle problem.....I had to slacken the fuel delivery stud a tad to get her to tick over correctly....
By the way...how did you balance the delivery of the injector pump after fitting the 7.5mm elements?
I think there's a post on here somewhere where the contributor retrofitted the adjusting screws to the external rear cover of the pump sucessfully....
i haven't balanced them yet but will do it tomorrow the same way i done my electronic pump. I run the engine at idle on four cyclinders with one injector pipe spraying diesel into a measuring tube for exactly one minute. Then i run her on all five to clear herself and them repeat the process over and over. After adjustments you will have a sweet idle and if you crack each injector pipe one at a time engine dies down the same on each cyclinder. Although i have no way to measure at full chat.
It will do for now until i make a bench.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - cleetus - 08-08-2011
Hi Mantahead,
did you have to or attempted to adjust the timing after the initial fit of the 7.5mm elements in the electronic pump??
did you need to make many adjustments to the elements when you balanced them too on the electric pump??
cheers
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-08-2011
(08-08-2011, 02:48 AM)cleetus Hi Mantahead,hi,
did you have to or attempted to adjust the timing after the initial fit of the 7.5mm elements in the electronic pump??
did you need to make many adjustments to the elements when you balanced them too on the electric pump??
cheers
yea a lot of adjusting with pump timing and adjusting to elements to get them the same.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - muuris - 08-13-2011
(08-07-2011, 04:48 PM)mantahead Do you know how myna fit that wastegate actuator and leave it independant from the stopper? It has to help with return to idle.ALDA does not affect return to idle at all. You've fitted the elements by yourself, you should have figured that out.. it only affects maximum fueling. When throttle lifted, it's all down to idle settings.
How could i leave adjuster screws coming out through the back cover for external adjustment, how would they seal?
The old Mynä way of making external ALDA was to make a fork of the stop lever. The actuator lets it go down but not up, until on boost. Simple and works as charm. I did my first ALDA the hard way: I removed the stop lever axle from the pump, drilled it so that the stop lever can move independent from the axle, then welded another lever to the axle. So the stop actuator could move it's original lever freely without axle needed to move, and also my external (no fork-like) actuator could limit fueling and engine would still stop.
The simplest way of making external adjustments is to modify only the pump back cover so it has plugs on the positions of the adjustments. Unscrew one, make adjustment, screw it back.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-14-2011
(08-13-2011, 11:35 AM)muurishi, when i first fitted elements it was to my electronic pump which didn't have alda or stopper lever. Now i have fitted them to my first mechanical pump, so should i now know everything about pumps?(08-07-2011, 04:48 PM)mantahead Do you know how myna fit that wastegate actuator and leave it independant from the stopper? It has to help with return to idle.ALDA does not affect return to idle at all. You've fitted the elements by yourself, you should have figured that out.. it only affects maximum fueling. When throttle lifted, it's all down to idle settings.
How could i leave adjuster screws coming out through the back cover for external adjustment, how would they seal?
The old Mynä way of making external ALDA was to make a fork of the stop lever. The actuator lets it go down but not up, until on boost. Simple and works as charm. I did my first ALDA the hard way: I removed the stop lever axle from the pump, drilled it so that the stop lever can move independent from the axle, then welded another lever to the axle. So the stop actuator could move it's original lever freely without axle needed to move, and also my external (no fork-like) actuator could limit fueling and engine would still stop.
The simplest way of making external adjustments is to modify only the pump back cover so it has plugs on the positions of the adjustments. Unscrew one, make adjustment, screw it back.
Thanks for explaining how the stopper was made independent from the axle.
My understanding was that the alda was holding back fuel until the engine came on boost and then it give full fuel. I thought that the wastegate actuator Myna used was holding the stopper half way and helping return to idle. Maybe i am wrong here.
So will a pump with an actuator supply more diesel on boost than a pump without?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-18-2011
hi,
i have sorted out my return to idle problem. It was to do with the TC adjustment and i made an adjustment to the throttle stop. No problems now to return to idle. I balanced the elements and loaded her on to the trailer. Tomorrow i will fit inlet manifold and put her back on the dyno.
I think she will still only rev to about 5500rpm the same as electronic pump but i want to take this 1 step at a time.
I can't wait to see what power she makes tomorrow. I am a little worried that she might make less power than the electronic pump but this is mechanical pump take 1.
There will be more to come, i don't give up easy.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - winmutt - 08-19-2011
Pics! Movies! Good luck!
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-21-2011
(08-19-2011, 09:18 AM)winmutt Pics! Movies! Good luck!hi no luck yet, have lost loads of power only made 226hp and less rpm
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - cleetus - 08-21-2011
are you sticking with the mechanical pump or possibly going back to electronic??
Shame you lost a fair amount of power fella
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-21-2011
(08-21-2011, 02:42 PM)cleetus are you sticking with the mechanical pump or possibly going back to electronic??hi, i will struggle on another while with mechanical pump.
Shame you lost a fair amount of power fella
What is everyones views on lightening the flyweights in the pump for more rpm. Is there any disadvantages?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - E300TSC - 08-21-2011
Jeemu actually ground off the stop on the timing mechanism for more total advance. I don't know how that effects max RPM though. Is there another set of weights for RPM control?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-22-2011
[/quote]hi, if the flyweights in the pump are lightened it should give more rpm as the weights won't have the same strength to push the rack back. Think idle springs will need changed.
CAN ANYONE SHED MORE LIGHT ON THIS, please.
Maybe Dieselmeken will help here.
yea i have more timing advance also.
I actually had more success with the mechanical pump than i thought.
Because i was running wide open exhaust housing and didn't have the rpm i only made 226hp.
I run it this morning with half exhaust housing and it made about 320hp cutting fuel about 4400rpm, so if i can rev to 5500rpm like electronic pump i should be on track to make more power.
video coming soon
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-25-2011
hi,
i called in at a pump shop yesterday about 20 miles from home, i asked about setting up my pump with the 7.5mm elements just for curiousity. I was trying to talk to him nicely but he went completely off on one. He said no no no no, i won't work at any thing that isn't standard, he was so ignorant i could not believe it.
He said i tuned a pump for a guy years ago and the guy came back and said "you blew my engine"
I asked him about matching me up with some stronger springs for more rpm and he said " i will set up a standard pump for you that is it. I said i am currently running 368hp and want more power what use would your standard pump be to me.
People wonder why i am working at my own pump.
Tomorrow i am goin to a company that makes springs.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - E300TSC - 08-26-2011
Hi Wayne, when you adjusted the quantities, how much did you move the rack bits? Did you measure the distance apart then move them a MM or 2?
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - mantahead - 08-29-2011
(08-26-2011, 07:29 PM)E300TSC Hi Wayne, when you adjusted the quantities, how much did you move the rack bits? Did you measure the distance apart then move them a MM or 2?hi,
yea i moved the ones that where suppling less fuel forward to i got them all even maybe 2mm. I went for more rather than less lol.
When you increase fuel to the low ones it seems to bring the higher ones down. I suppose you are using up more of the available fuel.
RE: 368 hp om605 with electronic pump - E300TSC - 08-29-2011
OK, thanks for that info. The ECU seeks a constant RPM at idle so that's why the higher quantity elements would run lower when you raised the others. The ECU is compensating for the higher power in the effected cylinders.