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+--- Thread: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand (/showthread.php?tid=2966)
Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - jonbobshinigin - 09-12-2011
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BOSCH-DIESEL-PUMP-TEST-STAND-/200650335797?pt=Automotive_Services&hash=item2eb7b12635
Let's just group buy one of these!
I am only partially joking...would this pump stand work?
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - Captain America - 09-12-2011
I say just chuck a fly wheel in a lathe and attach pump to that lol
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - E300TSC - 09-12-2011
It's only 2 grand, c'mon, somebody step up!
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - OM616 - 09-13-2011
OK, this is just too funny to pass up.
This is an attempt to be the voice of reason, during a recession, when every penny counts.
So lets say that someone does buy that incomplete machine with limited functions, (only two speeds, not a variable speed drive), ......... then what?
Scratch that,... lets say that someone buys a new, complete machine, that has all the functionality that the MW or M pumps need to set-up the pumps and governors, then what?
Collectively, there is just enough information out there to get some one into trouble.
What ever happened to the shop that was going to rebuild a pump for $500.00 if the customer supplied the elements?
If all one is concerned about is balancing the element out put, then a lathe, some graduated cylinders, and a way to lock the rack will do fine. You don't need to count revs to check the balance, output quantity yes, but balance no.
(for a stock set up, the rack is positioned to a specific depth, and the output is adjusted and balanced to a specific quantity, this matches the output with the governor settings. But everyone is putting larger elements in, so all the stock settings go out the window anyway, this is where the trouble part comes in).
If you figure its spinning at 1000 rpm, just watch the clock and let it run for a minute, (the longer the better), and compare the out put, adjust the barrels that are out of range and repeat.
Once the elements are putting out the same at low and high speeds, throw it on the car and proceed with extreme caution, as the element out put is now very different from what the governor thinks it is, and things could get exciting.
If, on the other hand, you want to set-up the governor, then the average lathe will not be sufficient.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - jonbobshinigin - 09-13-2011
Voice of reason...whatever!
Someone us are a sucker for taking on projects that we can hire our for $100, yet we decide to tackle it for $80 ourselves and days of research only to find out we are gonna have to spend $40 more to complete the task cause we bought the wrong parts the first time. In the end we spend $120 and countless hours to get something done imperfectly but somehow we feel good about it...
That said, I posted this for conversation mostly. But yeh...you are right.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - OM616 - 09-13-2011
(09-13-2011, 10:58 AM)jonbobshinigin Someone us are a sucker for taking on projects that we can hire our for $100, yet we decide to tackle it for $80 ourselves and days of research only to find out we are gonna have to spend $40 more to complete the task cause we bought the wrong parts the first time. In the end we spend $120 and countless hours to get something done imperfectly but somehow we feel good about it...
Very well said... I can say that because I have had that same mind set, only I'll keep at it until it is perfect or I am broke!!
Educations are expensive, but the knowledge gained is priceless. As long as one understands what you so eloquently stated above, then "proceed and be bold".... and if you can video tape it, I'm all about entertainment. lol
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - Captain America - 09-13-2011
Lathe FTW hahahahahhaahhaahahahahhhahahhahahahahahahaha
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - E300TSC - 09-13-2011
For the record, that machine has two ranges, not two speeds. It'll run variable up to around 4200 RPM.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - iheartboost - 09-13-2011
reason makes me unhappy. i want a us pump mod source.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - Captain America - 09-13-2011
"2 DIFFERENT RPM SETTING- 0-1250 AND 0-4200"
0 rpm up to 1250
&
0 rpm up to 4200
idk
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - kmaser - 09-13-2011
(09-13-2011, 10:46 AM)OM616 What ever happened to the shop that was going to rebuild a pump for $500.00 if the customer supplied the elements?Just to chime in here, I had my 6.5mm MW pump elements (from Tomnik) installed and the pump rebuilt by the shop "Deliveryvalve" found and organized for less than $600. I am currently rebuilding an OM617A to replace the one I blew up so once it's together I will report on whether it is a success.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - dieselmeken - 09-14-2011
Bosch EP375, This is the kind of machine that I did go to the yunkyard with around 1990.
Terrible drivesystem, Hydraulic drive, and often completly worn out. You will have to wait for min 30 minutes before the rpm was stable, but if you are going to turning candle holders, it can work.
This one didn´t even come with any testinjectors, just 6 pipes
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - winmutt - 09-14-2011
(09-14-2011, 12:18 AM)dieselmeken but if you are going to turning candle holders, it can work.
HAHAHHAHAHAH
Thanks for the laugh!
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - jonbobshinigin - 09-14-2011
x2...deiselmeken, can you see how desperate we are? Please save us from ruin and send us some pumps.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - dieselmeken - 09-14-2011
(09-14-2011, 12:05 PM)jonbobshinigin x2...deiselmeken, can you see how desperate we are? Please save us from ruin and send us some pumps.
soon my friend, soon.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - randomdude - 09-14-2011
^details on what the future holds??? for our desperate souls yearn for more diesel in our cylinders lol.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - pp d - 09-14-2011
(09-14-2011, 12:05 PM)jonbobshinigin how desperate we are?
Why don`t You take a ready solution and send Your pumps to Finland?
Tomnik`s elements are ready and very good.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - carlitosgy6 - 09-16-2011
(09-14-2011, 11:39 PM)pp d(09-14-2011, 12:05 PM)jonbobshinigin how desperate we are?
Why don`t You take a ready solution and send Your pumps to Finland?
Tomnik`s elements are ready and very good.
how much for that?
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - jonbobshinigin - 09-16-2011
It's mostly a cost and convenience issue...but if we have a local issue, it will be substantially less expensive.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - tomnik - 09-17-2011
(09-16-2011, 01:31 PM)jonbobshinigin It's mostly a cost and convenience issue...but if we have a local issue, it will be substantially less expensive.
from my experience you need more than 5 pumps until you reach the result that you would expect and this is only if your shop guy is really really good.
A "good" diesel guy makes money way easier than spending his valuable time in playing with your pump as there are no instructions to follow.
Either he will despair of all this stuff or he will ask for every single hour he plays.
A less expensive shop might never reach the goal.
Once a pump is o.k. on the bench there is no need for guarantee.
Stupid words: just pay and enjoy from the day the pump is in the car.
Tom
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - OM616 - 09-17-2011
(09-16-2011, 01:31 PM)jonbobshinigin It's mostly a cost and convenience issue...but if we have a local issue, it will be substantially less expensive.
Did you see post 11? It won't get any cheaper than that IMO. I certainly wouldn’t do it for that.
I'd say get yours done before he decides its not worth his time at that rate.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - tomnik - 09-17-2011
(09-17-2011, 10:13 AM)OM616 Did you see post 11? It won't get any cheaper than that IMO. I certainly wouldn’t do it for that.
I'd say get yours done before he decides its not worth his time at that rate.
this option is gone long time ago.
It was Scott finishing the pumps that David (Dervtuning) brought in.
Never had a pump from Scott but he spends his time on standard jobs and he is fully booked (at least was at that time).
Tom
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - OM616 - 09-17-2011
(09-17-2011, 10:52 AM)tomnik(09-17-2011, 10:13 AM)OM616 Did you see post 11? It won't get any cheaper than that IMO. I certainly wouldn’t do it for that.
I'd say get yours done before he decides its not worth his time at that rate.
this option is gone long time ago.
It was Scott finishing the pumps that David (Dervtuning) brought in.
Never had a pump from Scott but he spends his time on standard jobs and he is fully booked (at least was at that time).
Tom
I see...
You have got to figure that a standard rebuild is X amount at any given shop, and even if the shop had a good set up that they knew worked, and could set a High Performance pump up as quickly as if it was a stock rebuild, then you need to add to X , an additional "high performance" fee that goes with the High Performance territory.
If one can find a shop that will install aftermarket elements, just tell them to set he pump up to the stock specks, and turn it up your self. That lets the shop use standard specks that jive with each other, (the actual rack position will be different for the stock delivery quantity, but they should be able to match the out put to speed specks without a problem).The shorter delivery time alone will be a good performance improvement. I set the 10mm MW that I built to deliver the same fuel quantity and curve as a turned up stock pump, and it was a whole nother animal.
The shorter delivery duration makes a big difference. I have serious questions as to the functionality of the delivery valves at the higher delivery quantities and shorter delivery durations though, especially at high speed operation. I can not see how the DV plunger is not floating, which would through off the timing and quantity. I could see that I was chasing a ghost depending on how I ran it up, and I bet it was the DVs being pushed beyond their calibrated operating range.
I have measured the stock DVs and I am going to make some custom delivery valve holders that will limit the travel of the delivery valve plunger, and select a spring that can be set to the stock preload for a good idle, but it will have a higher spring rate to help prevent float. I want to try this on a 5.5mm pump first to see how the high speed EGTs are affected, the goal being to be able to recalibrate the DVs for the higher volume at the high speed range, in an attempt to stabilize the high speed injection timing, thus allowing more fuel for the same EGTs, or, reducing the EGTs.
It is the attention to detail when moding a component such as an IP that makes the difference between works ok, and works very well. The average rebuild shop just isn’t up to the challenge for only a couple of pumps.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - tomnik - 09-18-2011
I totally agree to what you say about the set up of a high performance pump.
But if someone is doing just one pump for his own use I think the money on saving the governor adjustment done by the shop is not in relation to the time and effort of doing this at home (on the car). For sure this does not work on the first attempt.
Good to hear that you also focus the DV.
For MWs there are several types suitable but for Ms the range for release quantity is limited. I found one type that works well.
Unfortunately the DVs for MW and M are not directly interchangeable.
You know that there are different springs depending on the type of DV holder?
Tom
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - DeliveryValve - 09-18-2011
(09-17-2011, 10:52 AM)tomnik(09-17-2011, 10:13 AM)OM616 Did you see post 11? It won't get any cheaper than that IMO. I certainly wouldn’t do it for that.
I'd say get yours done before he decides its not worth his time at that rate.
this option is gone long time ago.
It was Scott finishing the pumps that David (Dervtuning) brought in.
Never had a pump from Scott but he spends his time on standard jobs and he is fully booked (at least was at that time).
Tom
I think post 11 refers to BECS Pacific in Bakersfield, California. Which installed the tomnik elements that Scott and David failed to carry through and left people hanging.
I am not sure to what performance tune did that do to SurfRodder's and kmaser's pumps. I did however relay a message to them that kmaser did not want his pump set up too aggressive, but in a mild flavor and good idle. Again, hopefully those two guys will give a report on the outcome.
.
.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - OM616 - 09-22-2011
(09-18-2011, 01:38 AM)tomnik Good to hear that you also focus the DV.
For MWs there are several types suitable but for Ms the range for release quantity is limited. I found one type that works well.
Unfortunately the DVs for MW and M are not directly interchangeable.
You know that there are different springs depending on the type of DV holder?
Tom
I have a couple of different MW DV springs and I want to speck them out so I can get an idea of the different rates and preloads for the different applications, and use that as a reference for my selection of a new spring.
I did some quick math and found that the on the 616 MW DV that I have, the collar displaces .031 cc to the point where the bottom of the collar escapes the cylinder bore.
From that, I looked at the different delivery quantities at different throttle settings and have to conclude that the post injection line pressure must vary depending on the quantity of fuel injected, (+ that quantity required to obtain the pop pressure).
If you figure a conservative delivery rate of 40cc per 1000 strokes, (.040 cc per stroke), that alone is more than enough to push the DV plunger up enough to totally expel the collar. Now at slow speeds, the spring can keep the collar as close to the cylinder as possible, so at the end of injection, the returning flow pushes on the collar, which helps return the plunger down to it's seat, but at high speeds, I bet the plunger is thrown, and the extra distance allows some of the return flow to escape in to the element before the collar returns to the top of the cylinder, at that point controlling the quantity, but the pressure has already dropped prior to the collar reaching the cylinder. This would result in a lower post injection line pressure, and retard the injection timing of the next injection.
Add to that, an increased delivery rate and quantity at high speed, and I bet the plunger is thrown even more, totally altering the injection timing.
I want to be able to measure or determine the actual injection timing at different quantities and speeds to see how limiting the DV plunger travel and the spring rate affect the high speed delivery timing stability.
I sold the instrumentation I built to the Pump Shop that let me use their machine, so I need to build a Gen II version. I can identify the IP cam position and record it easy enough, but I am not sure if the injector output sensor will be quiet enough to be able to identify the actual start of an injection pulse at 2500 pump rpm. My thought is to over sample like crazy, and use the cam position to help isolate the window of data that needs to be processed.
The stock DV is meant for a low quantity and moderate speed. When we turn up the output, increase the delivery rate and operating speed, the stock DV set up is thrown out of calibration, and the full power / speed performance is reduced. High EGTs and smoke result from the unstable injection timing, (IMO), more than reduced VE on a supercharged engine. I need to build a set up to be sure.
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - Captain America - 09-23-2011
Thats a bit of work! But also the kind of work I enjoy!!!
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - randomdude - 09-26-2011
(09-18-2011, 01:38 AM)tomnik But if someone is doing just one pump for his own use I think the money on saving the governor adjustment done by the shop is not in relation to the time and effort of doing this at home (on the car). For sure this does not work on the first attempt.
just a quick question, the wording is confuzzling me a bit. are you saying that a person (if capable) should adjust the gov them self or have the shop do it. just want to make sure im understanding correctly.
thanks!
RE: Ebay Bosch Pump Stand - tomnik - 09-26-2011
Hi,
sorry for being not clear.
I mean if one guy wants a pump for his own use it does not make sense in my eyes to go through the governor adjustment and do it on his own.
In that case pay and enjoy!
Tom