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+--- Thread: OM617 motor swap need some advice (/showthread.php?tid=3237)
OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 01-06-2012
Hey guys this is my first post but have been reading lots of threads and lurking around here.
So heres the deal, I did lots of research on small diesels and found that this motor seemed to be my best choice for my conversion. The motor is going into a 67 109 5 door wagen with a tremec 176 tranny and a salasbury rear axle a british dana 60.
I bought the whole car a 1983 300D turbo automatic. The car runs good starts in 0deg weather and runs good once up to temp.
I know the valves are important to keep adjusted on these cars and will do that first thing. The motor revs slow so going to check the banjo bolt tonight and prep the motor for removal.
Questions
#1 what items do I not need, things that can be removed to help clean up engine bay of rover. IE egr etc.
#2 what performance up grades can be done while out of car to get more power from the motor, rover will weigh about 5k and be a close ratio 4spd.
#3 Im kind of a diesel power junkie and I know didnt pick the easiest motor to mod but wondering what to do in the intake and intercooler department, I have some intercoolers from variouse rigs I have built and was thinking one of my porsche 930 intercoolers might be enough? there small and same displacement but I know diesels like there air.
#4 Where is a good source for a good manual for this motor as im not sure where everything is located that needs to be transplanted to the rover IE glow plug relays any shut off valves needed to kill motor when key is turned off etc.
So guys any help would be great and im really looking forward to this motor going into the Rover.
Cheers Ed
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - larsalan - 01-06-2012
alaska
I guess you can lose the ac stuff
more power means more fuel and air. Do you see the thread about pump tuning? It's sticky at the top of the engine performance section I think.
Maybe can steal a manual of the net? Or just send pictures and ask whatever,
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - rdavisinva - 01-06-2012
(01-06-2012, 09:54 PM)aka rover Hey guys this is my first post but have been reading lots of threads and lurking around here.
So heres the deal, I did lots of research on small diesels and found that this motor seemed to be my best choice for my conversion. The motor is going into a 67 109 5 door wagen with a tremec 176 tranny and a salasbury rear axle a british dana 60.
I bought the whole car a 1983 300D turbo automatic. The car runs good starts in 0deg weather and runs good once up to temp.
I know the valves are important to keep adjusted on these cars and will do that first thing. The motor revs slow so going to check the banjo bolt tonight and prep the motor for removal.
Questions
#1 what items do I not need, things that can be removed to help clean up engine bay of rover. IE egr etc.
#2 what performance up grades can be done while out of car to get more power from the motor, rover will weigh about 5k and be a close ratio 4spd.
#3 Im kind of a diesel power junkie and I know didnt pick the easiest motor to mod but wondering what to do in the intake and intercooler department, I have some intercoolers from variouse rigs I have built and was thinking one of my porsche 930 intercoolers might be enough? there small and same displacement but I know diesels like there air.
#4 Where is a good source for a good manual for this motor as im not sure where everything is located that needs to be transplanted to the rover IE glow plug relays any shut off valves needed to kill motor when key is turned off etc.
So guys any help would be great and im really looking forward to this motor going into the Rover.
Cheers Ed
Ed:
I just completed this swap in a 1972 109 (LHD Austrian Fire Birgade SW with low miles) that originally had a euro 6 cyl.
Tonight got it running really well.
What adapter, flywheel, clutch are you using?
I used the LR diesel mounts and what a mistake.
The whole vehicle rattled from the floorboards to the tropical roof!
Refabbed the motor mounts using the stock Mercedes 300D W123 rubber mounts turned upside down and no vibration at all... amazing.
send me an email at rdavisinva at my yahoo account and will send you some pictures.
Was rushed to get an OM617 Turbo Diesel (TD) engine in the vehicle and driving, so didn't prep the engine... what a mistake.
Engine would start right up, smoke, and run rough, the didn't want to restart.
Have been buying pick-n-pull engines for under $400.
Bought a set of valve adjustment wrenches, compression, tester and pop-tester for the injectors along with the injector heat shields (seats).
Compression was OK, but found a bad injector.
Pulled injectors from 3 OM617 TDs and tested them all.
Put the best 5 that had the closest pop pressure (1950) and best/finest spray pattern.
Of the 15 tested, 7 were bad.
Also has incorrect routing on the spill over lines from the injectors and corrected this as well.
The shut off solenoid I was using was holding vacuum and adding to the did not want to restart issue.
Started it up about 8:00 PM and it ran like a sewing machine.
Also have a turbo rebuild kit and plan to rebuild the turbo.
I love our 300 TD wagon and using the same engine in the 109 will be satisfying.
They go forever!
Sorry I didn't address all your questions, perhaps later...
Saw your post and had to reply.
Happy new Year!
RDavisinva
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 01-06-2012
(01-06-2012, 09:58 PM)larsalan alaska
I guess you can lose the ac stuff
more power means more fuel and air. Do you see the thread about pump tuning? It's sticky at the top of the engine performance section I think.
Maybe can steal a manual of the net? Or just send pictures and ask whatever,
Cool thanks for the help AC will be removed Ill check out the pump tuning thread for sure.
Cheers Ed
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 01-07-2012
(01-06-2012, 10:35 PM)rdavisinva Ed:
I just completed this swap in a 1972 109 (LHD Austrian Fire Birgade SW with low miles) that originally had a euro 6 cyl.
Tonight got it running really well.
What adapter, flywheel, clutch are you using?
I used the LR diesel mounts and what a mistake.
The whole vehicle rattled from the floorboards to the tropical roof!
Refabbed the motor mounts using the stock Mercedes 300D W123 rubber mounts turned upside down and no vibration at all... amazing.
send me an email at rdavisinva at my yahoo account and will send you some pictures.
Was rushed to get an OM617 Turbo Diesel (TD) engine in the vehicle and driving, so didn't prep the engine... what a mistake.
Engine would start right up, smoke, and run rough, the didn't want to restart.
Have been buying pick-n-pull engines for under $400.
Bought a set of valve adjustment wrenches, compression, tester and pop-tester for the injectors along with the injector heat shields (seats).
Compression was OK, but found a bad injector.
Pulled injectors from 3 OM617 TDs and tested them all.
Put the best 5 that had the closest pop pressure (1950) and best/finest spray pattern.
Of the 15 tested, 7 were bad.
Also has incorrect routing on the spill over lines from the injectors and corrected this as well.
The shut off solenoid I was using was holding vacuum and adding to the did not want to restart issue.
Started it up about 8:00 PM and it ran like a sewing machine.
Also have a turbo rebuild kit and plan to rebuild the turbo.
I love our 300 TD wagon and using the same engine in the 109 will be satisfying.
They go forever!
Sorry I didn't address all your questions, perhaps later...
Saw your post and had to reply.
Happy new Year!
RDavisinva
RDavisinva
Thanks for the reply and nice to see theres a Rover guy out there in the same boat I am.
Well looks like I will be useing the factory motor mounts turned upside ? for space reasons I would think. Also mine is the six cylinder chassis as well so fitment should be good. Did you have clearance issues around the diff to the oil pan.
Im using a 4x4labs.com adapter plate and billet flywheel to a chevy clutch and a ford v10 high torque starter motor. I also am using a rangie P38 power steering box with the mercedes pump. I am installing disc brakes and have converted clutch and master over to later style units. Advanced Adapters built my bellhousing and my series to tranny adapters.
I really want to clean up the motor as much as possible before installation. so anyhting that isnt needed I want gone.
Im looking at using the stock tach and putting it in a series gauge housing.
Id like to see some pics of yours mine is still long off from being done but ready for the motor fitment.
Thanks Ed
Did you transfer the mercedes glow plug relay ?
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - rdavisinva - 01-08-2012
Ed:
Am currently on the 3rd try at motor mount fabrication.
1.) Land Rover Diesel Mounts attached to the stock Land Rover chassis mount - no good transferred too much vibration.
2.) Mercedes W123 diesel mounts upside down attached to the stock Land Rover chassis mount (left mount slightly modified) - Absorbed the vibration but raised the engine too much in the front.
3.) Mercedes W123 diesel mounts right side up attached to the stock Right Land Rover chassis mount using a plate that centers the top over the big hole that allows you to install and remove the allen head bolt. Custom left chassis mount further back from the original chassis mount. All this is to allow the engine to sit straight.
We made a custom oil pan, pickup tube using a GM pickup with built in screen, and custom back half of the oil pump that holds the oil pressure relief valve. Lots of work and very expensive... Since this custom pan is required for the 90 & 110, I made the prototype to fit both the Defender and the 109.
Think it is possible to use the stock oil pickup and modify the stock oil pan to be no wider than the engine itself and go further back with the longer sump to gain the same amount of oil volume. My only concern is that the stock pan casting may warp or get brittle from all the welding. Baffles or a back to front slope to help keep the oil at the front of the pan near the original pickup may work out. The original pickup could also be shortened some if needed. Haven't spent any time looking into this.
Also made my own adapter, an aluminum ring that attaches to a steel plate we also made that bolts to the back of the engine. Turned a custom flywheel that positions the ring gear in alignment with the stock starter that is held to the adapter by 3/8" studs and small 12 point nuts. Custom flywheel takes the stock Rover 9.5 inch clutch. The adapter bolts to the stock Rover 4 speed. Since this was a late 109 with the Euro rover 6, it came with a series III type syncro transmission.
You can probably use the stock Land Rover Diesel IG switch with the glow plug position, but the FB 109 had a different ignition switch mounted to the steering column, so instead instead did something more complicated...
Bought a timer relay from http://www.precisiontimer.com/
They will build according to your spec, so mine is adjustable from 5 to 35 seconds and gets actuated when the key is first switched on. It switches an 80 amp relay that supplies power to the glow plugs. This 80 amp relay may nor be enough, so still need to test the amperage draw verses the relay rating. Then put an original single pole rocker switch on the dash where the choke cable was with the cold start label so the glow plug timer relay can be turned on and off so it will or won't actuate. Wired the circuit to the original glow plug warning light in the dash.
A tach would be nice. Using the original sounds interesting. Also looked at some small 2.25" Smiths tachs to stay in spirit that would run off the alternator pulse, but have not spent any time to find out how to calculate the setup to make it work accurately.
Got in a few test drives and am satisfied with the stock gearing, but you can decide after you go for a drive in yours if you want overdrive or might change the diff gearing.
Will try and attach a picture of the FB 109 as requested.
Good Luck,
Robert
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 01-08-2012
Thanks for the reply
Im thinking of using the factory benz glow plug relay since I bought the whole car just to make sure I had everything.
I was going to make complete new motor mounts even on the motor side but may use them since there allready on the motor. I cut off and plated my frame so i could position motor as needed to clear everything.
Where you able to leave your transmisssion in its stock location?
Im still trying to figure out what parts I need to remove from the 300D before it goes away.
I adjusted the alda while I had motor running last night and adjusted the rack damper and think Ill go ahead and put new nozzles on and have the injectors pop tested and balanced.
Im looking at while I have the body apart fitting a intercooler since im at a good spot only thing on the frame is the bulkhead.
Cheers Ed
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - rdavisinva - 01-09-2012
Ed typed:
I was going to make complete new motor mounts even on the engine side but may use them since there allready on the motor. I cut off and plated my frame so i could position motor as needed to clear everything.
~The approach I took was to first locate where you are going to put the mount. Then fab a plate that bolts to the engine and fab the frame side with the Mercedes rubber motor mount in place, then attach the 2 sides together. On the right side the rubber motor mount will sit on the stock mount. And on the left side the mount will attach just aft of the part of the block that juts out on the side (the vacuum pump bolts to the front of this area of the block). As mentioned earlier am making a whole new mount on the frame side. Don't think you can use anything from the stock mounts except for the rubber units. Always start with a cardboard pattern and make one piece at a time. Then tack weld, remove and do a proper weld, and bolt back on for the next step. Very time consuming!~
Where you able to leave your transmisssion in its stock location?
~Yes~
Im still trying to figure out what parts I need to remove from the 300D before it goes away.
I adjusted the alda while I had motor running last night and adjusted the rack damper and think Ill go ahead and put new nozzles on and have the injectors pop tested and balanced.
~You'll probably will find yourself readjusting the alda if you replace any injectors. Don't forget to adjust the valves and take a compression test.~
Im looking at while I have the body apart fitting a intercooler since im at a good spot only thing on the frame is the bulkhead.
~The real limit here is the breakfast (rad support panel) size. I saw a 109 with a 200 TDI that used a small intercooler before the stock radiator that was at this years MAR. The hood latch was altered to allow it to fit. I am friends with the guy and he already sent me the details in October of last year think it was from a Ford Mustang. Will dig up the eBay seller and post when I find it buried in the inbox. I am going to try mine without an intercooler as think the OM617 will be more than powerful enough for the 109. When doing our 110, plan to fit an intercooler because the breakfast is much larger.
Also found a modern air box that fits perfect from a Chrysler 5th Ave. Even has a place for the valve cover hose. It will fit in the same space where the stock air cleaner goes if you remove that big oil bath tray mounting assembly.
Robert~
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 02-17-2012
got motor mounts built and was able to use stock mounts on motor and build new frame mounts.
here is how the mounts look I offset the motor like the factory Rover motor so my trans and tranny would be in there stock locations.
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - Simpler=Better - 02-17-2012
You can kick the EGR hardware, and the associated linkage/ vacuum lines.
if you go to a non-stock air cleaner ditch the air cleaner bracket /oil separation hose stuff (obviously)
Assuming you install an EGT gauge and a boost pressure gauge:
Ditch the overboost pressure sensor (sensor on top of the valve cover)
Overboost protection lines (banjo bolt on the back of the intake)
ALDA (boxy thingy on the injection pump with air line running to it from the overboost assy)
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 02-18-2012
(02-17-2012, 04:06 PM)Simpler=Better You can kick the EGR hardware, and the associated linkage/ vacuum lines.
if you go to a non-stock air cleaner ditch the air cleaner bracket /oil separation hose stuff (obviously)
Assuming you install an EGT gauge and a boost pressure gauge:
Ditch the overboost pressure sensor (sensor on top of the valve cover)
Overboost protection lines (banjo bolt on the back of the intake)
ALDA (boxy thingy on the injection pump with air line running to it from the overboost assy)
I do have a EGT and a boost gauge
I will ditch the items you mentioned but I have a question about the ALDA if I remove it will there be a open hole on the pump?
I plan on using a airbox from a ford v10 its a cone type and easy to adapt it to a snorkle.
I removed the head to fix a oil leak and now have the IP on the bench and was thinking now is the time to give it a tweek or two. I have read a bit and sounds like maybe the sticky at the top may not be the ideal instructions, I have read om616s threads and was going to fallow his instructions?
Thanks for the help
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - yankneck696 - 02-18-2012
OM 616 wrote a fine article. Read it through a few times, then adjust with the ALDA still connected. If you then feel it's a restriction, remove it.
Ed
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 02-18-2012
I would really like to go with out the Alada after doing somemore reading.
This truck will weigh in at 5-6k when loaded for travel, and I want to get as much power as I can from it, I pulled the head last night and with 200k on the clock theres still cross hatch in the cylinders.
Another question is how loud are these motors with straight pipe off of turbo? I have run many diesels with no muffler and the turbo keeps them quiet enough.
I would like to do as much as I can while the motor is out, I have the pump on the bench and would like to do what I can while easy to get to. Where can I buy a drip test tool or do you guyd make one? I was thinking about testing injectors and thought about buying a bench testor for them anyone have any recomendations?
Has anyone went with a manual oil pressure gauge other than factory? I need to adapt from the current large line to the smaller VDO sized line.
Thanks
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - larsalan - 02-18-2012
Motor is not too loud without a muffler. You can still hear people talking over it. That drip tool should just be a piece of injector line. Though I recall a debate over at pp about the length of the line and which way its cut, et cet.
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - sassparilla_kid - 02-19-2012
I just got an injector line from the junkyard and cut it off at a sharp angle with a hack saw, and then bent it into a nice curve and its worked fine for me
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 02-19-2012
Ill check our junk yards and see whats available for a used line, Im working on a alt conversion to a more available to me GM alt.
I got my exhaust stuff in and will start from the turbo and build new out the back, with no muffler
Got the motor all put back togather and one of the rocker arm holding bolts broke off like it was butter?. All the holes where dry so no hydro lock? So ill be sourceing new ones I think ill replace them all at this point.
Ill post up some pics of the motor when I get it ready to bolt in.
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - fte - 02-19-2012
If you still have the doaner car get the overboost solonoid off the firewall. I used this for the engine shutoff, key on closes the vac, key off opens vac to shutoff. As for the motor mounts, using the Benz rubber mounts are great for smooth/quiet but in a 4x4 not so good. They tear out easly so if you must use then limit straps and guide pockets are a must or the first time you go off road the motor will ripp out of its mounts and BAD things will happen. I had this motor in a Cherokee, straight pipes ok if you go all the way back.
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 02-19-2012
(02-19-2012, 10:00 PM)fte If you still have the doaner car get the overboost solonoid off the firewall. I used this for the engine shutoff, key on closes the vac, key off opens vac to shutoff. As for the motor mounts, using the Benz rubber mounts are great for smooth/quiet but in a 4x4 not so good. They tear out easly so if you must use then limit straps and guide pockets are a must or the first time you go off road the motor will ripp out of its mounts and BAD things will happen. I had this motor in a Cherokee, straight pipes ok if you go all the way back.
Wow dont need them to rip from frame, I have read that other mounts send to much viberation through the chassis. I was planning on limiting with cable to keep it from tearing out.
I also am running two tranny mounts on each side of the frame in the rear to help stop movement. I did keep the switch? I think its the one in line to the ALDA ?
Thanks for the help
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - fte - 02-20-2012
Yep that's the switch
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 02-20-2012
I just checked my cam timing with the 2mm lift method and found my chain stretch to be 5 deg.
I ordered a 4deg offset ket to fix the timing , will this improve its running or just make it right?
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - carlitosgy6 - 02-20-2012
my ranger has a 3 inch pipe coming out on the front of the rear tire,no muffler,almost no noise inside the truck,outside mostly the same,just the regular clack clack of the engine,but when you press the pedal to the metal sounds like a semi!!
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 02-21-2012
Cool thanks im going straight pipe for now, Are you running MB motor mounts in your ranger?
I am but may change them due to engine movement will have to drive it and see.
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - carlitosgy6 - 02-24-2012
(02-21-2012, 10:48 AM)aka rover Cool thanks im going straight pipe for now, Are you running MB motor mounts in your ranger?
I am but may change them due to engine movement will have to drive it and see.
im using the stock motor mounts from the ranger,shakes a little,not too much,my wife use my ranger with no complain,you know
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - Hercules - 02-25-2012
(02-20-2012, 04:30 PM)aka rover I just checked my cam timing with the 2mm lift method and found my chain stretch to be 5 deg.
I ordered a 4deg offset ket to fix the timing , will this improve its running or just make it right?
Be sure to check TDC pointer,mine was off 2 degrees.
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 02-27-2012
(02-25-2012, 05:11 PM)Hercules(02-20-2012, 04:30 PM)aka rover I just checked my cam timing with the 2mm lift method and found my chain stretch to be 5 deg.
I ordered a 4deg offset ket to fix the timing , will this improve its running or just make it right?
Be sure to check TDC pointer,mine was off 2 degrees.
Yep did that while the head was off. got the motor in for the final time for awhile.
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - Hercules - 02-27-2012
Set mine cam timing 3 degrees advanced. Highly suggest PC mod.to 1980 model size dispersion holes (larger) Again used in 1985 model. Increased performance.
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 08-27-2012
Well I drove the Rover a few months ago and I am very impressed with the power. still more to do but over all im happy with the results.
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - Simpler=Better - 08-27-2012
That's a big tin can, it looks great!
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - aka rover - 04-13-2013
(08-27-2012, 08:14 AM)Simpler=Better That's a big tin can, it looks great!
I am now back from a 15k adventure thru mexico and have loved this little motor the whole time. It doesnt get the fuel economy I would have liked but it did ok for sure. 14-20 mph .
Ed
A pic of my son and I climbing a hill in mexico
RE: OM617 motor swap need some advice - lgreeley83 - 04-13-2013
I love these old land rover builds. Whenever someone wants to design and put one together for me I'll be fully receptive at a minimal if not stupid cheap cost. I will probably never own one...constantly drooling...