+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? (/showthread.php?tid=3404)
how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - mr_manny - 02-29-2012
Some of you may be familiar with my early landcruiser conversion, which I have enjoyed for just about a year.
My 1st mistake was bringing her over to one of those quick oil-change places for an oil change.
My conversion utilizes a remote dual-filter head unit, which had two HP1 fram filters.
They didn't carry these filters, so I mentioned that the fram PH8A filters were compatible.
They replaced the filters, I started the truck for a moment to circulate the oil and verify adequate oil-level.
They checked, and added another 1/2 quart of 15-40w which was verified again after another start/idle/stop step.
I left the shop, only to wait for a few mins. (signal-light) to make a U-turn and head back home.
I noticed power felt sluggish, followed by my motor shutting down in less then an average city block.
I don't believe I reached 40MPH, as I found myself coasting to the shoulder.
I was able to start her for a moment, only to have it shutdown again.
I started her once more, this time slowly accelerating the throttle manually and watched how the motor shutdown again once I let off the accelerator.
I towed the truck back to the shop, and informed them that they had made some sort of mistake.
They indicated that they had only changed the oil, and felt they were not to blame for the current condition of my truck.
After I towed her back home, I realized they had installed much SMALLER oil-filters...nothing like what was previously installed.
I have since replaced the filters with PH8As, but the truck feels like most if not all power has been lost.
She doesn't seem to appreciate anything other then Idling.
The amount of blow-by is now severe, which was not the case prior to the oil-change.
It seems like the motor was about to seize, and now avoided as a result of replacing the SMALLER oil-filters.
I would appreciate some assistance in understanding how my om617 was quickly compromised, as a result of an oil-change.
I don't believe I should perform any trouble-shooting steps, as I will be filing a claim w/the shop.
thanks,
manny
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - Greazzer - 02-29-2012
Do you have oil pressure ? If so, is the pressure the same prior to the oil change ?
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - winmutt - 02-29-2012
That sucks but given everything, I think you would have a hard time fighting that battle.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - mr_manny - 02-29-2012
Current oil pressure is extremely low, definitely lower then prior to my oil change
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - Greazzer - 02-29-2012
Winmutt is right about the battle, but the small claims court is not friendly to the business (at least not in SC). They have to get a lawyer, you don't. You can roll the dice in small claims. Ask for a jury. The facts from what you said are in your favor. Car was fine going in but not fine going out. That fact alone gets you to the 51% level of proof needed. Also, you can file a homeowners claim. If the shop screwed it up, I would do everything possible within the law to get compensated for the loss. As for the oil pressure, could something be clogging the lines or got jammed up inside the filter housing ? Sounds like a flow issue (maybe). I am truly sorry for the loss and headache.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - Purplecomputer - 02-29-2012
you are sure everything else is okay? could it be a fuel problem? I know on my 240 when the filters are clogged i get low oil pressure.
edit:
I know you said you dont want to do trouble shooting but i would just take a quick peak
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - toyfreak - 02-29-2012
I just went back to the oem filter assembly because I wasn't getting pressure for almost 10 seconds sometimes. Now I get pressure instantly, but the damage on my engine has already been done and it's knocking again. This is engine #2 for me and there will not be another one. Hope you get some money from them to fix yours.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - zeeman - 03-01-2012
(02-29-2012, 09:44 PM)toyfreak I just went back to the oem filter assembly because I wasn't getting pressure for almost 10 seconds sometimes. Now I get pressure instantly, but the damage on my engine has already been done and it's knocking again. This is engine #2 for me and there will not be another one. Hope you get some money from them to fix yours.
How many quarts of oil did they put in compared to what it holds? The problem legally is that you told them to put that oil filter on, may be a problem. Seems odd that it would seize that quick, I have seen customers run there 617 engines completely out of oil and refill them and never have a problem. Is there a bypass on your remote filter housing? How far is the remote filter from the engine? I would do some more checking before I went further with this. Did they change the fuel filters?
I have a dodge cummins with a amsoil remote bypass filter setup and it takes a few seconds to show oil pressure on the gauge. It has oil pressure but takes a few seconds to get to the gauge. It has 250,000 miles and never a problem.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - Hercules - 03-02-2012
Diesel engines will not run more than just a few minutes(2 -3). with out oil pressure at speeds. The oil pressure keeps the bearings centered and away from the crank. Without oil pressure the bearings are beat out fast... Gas engines last much longer without oil pressure. Two Mbz V-8 cars ,on the same day,hit the same rock,causing a 5" hole in lower oil pan,(that"s out of oil)
than drove 20 miles to the MBz dealer. Bearings checked (ok) Factory called,said that cam bearings usually seized first if not high speeds incurred. New pans installed,oil,filter,sent on there way. Blow an oil cooler line off on these 617 engines, you have about two city blocks before engine damage starts to occur. Customer (trusted) I heard a whining noise,checked oil pressure,it was falling,pulled off than,stopped engine.Service station 1 mile ahead, decided to drive there. Result, turbo gone before gauge hit zero,crank bearings gone (1 mile ahead). This engine was rebuilt,with rebuilt turbo. HOW much time do you have-----NOT MUCH.....
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - barrote - 03-03-2012
Well, sure u have a problem, try to fill it up with w30 oil and check the oil pump. anyway that engine can last for a few more miles, bu since is smoking trough the breeder will not last long and if u ask some power it will burn white and die.
i don't agree that crankshaft bearings go that fast, i ve seen in big diesels like volvo 110, 120 cat 3630, and so on, usually what kills them is the pressure loss trough rings, that will cause the cylinders to overheat and burn the oil and once the oil losses his lubricant properties due to overheating all insights will be damaged and one can´t notice that heating cause very few have oil temp gauges.
anyway good luck with the legal fight.
ps: i had same problem once, my case the engine broke a valve.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - mr_manny - 03-03-2012
The amount of blow-by is depressing
No doubt about it, Damage has definitely been done.
Now it's all about documenting everything and file a claim with shop.
I've never done small-claims, but imagine that will be plan-B.
Thank you ALL for your replies.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - mr_manny - 03-22-2013
Buddy's Shop finally has time for me (they have been swamped).
They torn into the motor this week...kinda explains blow-by and compression issues:
![[Image: 6e9ury8e_zps54e800e1.jpg]](http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e287/mr_manny/6e9ury8e_zps54e800e1.jpg)
![[Image: uzerejyq_zps8b819f09.jpg]](http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e287/mr_manny/uzerejyq_zps8b819f09.jpg)
Replacement motor came from a strong running 83 w/200K.
![[Image: IMG951805_zpsc43f5c4e.jpg]](http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e287/mr_manny/IMG951805_zpsc43f5c4e.jpg)
Soooo looking forward to having my truck running again.
Will be keeping the original filter w/this engine, no more adapters or spin-on filters.
Another nice bonce about the 83, no more 85 test-pipe
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - larsalan - 03-22-2013
The junk motor is an 85? Save the plastic fan/clutch and the head for the prechambers.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - swampmonkey - 03-22-2013
w115 with late w123 240d engine, a hose came of between the engine and the oilfilteradapter needed,
noticed a strange sound, turned of the engine while still roling, sound stopped, started imidietly, turned of radio, flored the pedal,
55mph-60mph-55mph-50mph, turned my head and noticed that i had no oilpressure, by then i had driven about half a mile (1km) without oilpressure and most of it with full throttle.
towed home, filled up with oil, and has since then been my daily driver for 1.5 year.
had no oil in it this winter either, but noticed that the oilpressure was low before it started to seize up.
long story short, they take a hellof a beating these engines.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - raysorenson - 03-22-2013
Congrats. Where are you gonna stick the oil filter housing? There's not a whole lot of room on the driver's side.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - MFSuper90 - 03-22-2013
Looks like a clean motor!
Have fun
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - mr_manny - 03-22-2013
(03-22-2013, 07:12 PM)raysorenson Congrats. Where are you gonna stick the oil filter housing? There's not a whole lot of room on the driver's side.
Hoping a relocated parking-brake cable, and some surgical sledge hammer strikes provides the needed clearance
(03-22-2013, 05:26 PM)larsalan The junk motor is an 85? Save the plastic fan/clutch and the head for the prechambers.
thanks for the tip
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - Simpler=Better - 03-23-2013
(03-22-2013, 10:55 PM)mr_manny(03-22-2013, 07:12 PM)raysorenson Congrats. Where are you gonna stick the oil filter housing? There's not a whole lot of room on the driver's side.
Hoping a relocated parking-brake cable, and some surgical sledge hammer strikes provides the needed clearance
(03-22-2013, 05:26 PM)larsalan The junk motor is an 85? Save the plastic fan/clutch and the head for the prechambers.
thanks for the tip
It sounds like relocating the stock housing might be your best bet
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - Kozuka - 03-23-2013
Do you think that such problems could also arise from having a filter in the oil cooling circuit, always though of doing AN fittings and extra filter(s) in the cooling circuit with an aftermarket oil cooler. What kind of flow ratings are required in the spin-on style filters since obviously they put one on that was way too restrictive and the oil pump couldn't keep up. The canister style filter seems like it would be very free flowing.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - mr_manny - 03-24-2013
(03-23-2013, 09:06 PM)Simpler=Better It sounds like relocating the stock housing might be your best bet
Havent ruled that option out...
thanks
(03-23-2013, 10:31 PM)Kozuka Do you think that such problems could also arise from having a filter in the oil cooling circuit, always though of doing AN fittings and extra filter(s) in the cooling circuit with an aftermarket oil cooler. What kind of flow ratings are required in the spin-on style filters since obviously they put one on that was way too restrictive and the oil pump couldn't keep up. The canister style filter seems like it would be very free flowing.
Existing system was in place for 1yr w/out any issues.
That being said, I believe original design to be a better then adapted spin-on system.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - sassparilla_kid - 03-25-2013
I can't see the pictures very well on my phone, what is all that broken crap in there?
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - Simpler=Better - 03-25-2013
(03-25-2013, 01:11 AM)sassparilla_kid I can't see the pictures very well on my phone, what is all that broken crap in there?
Something that was once a piston
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - lgreeley83 - 03-25-2013
If that's a piston, is it an oiling problem? And is it cracked in half?!? After opening it up, have you any changes in the hypothesis as to why it crapped out?
oh and, what did the other pistons look like?
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - mr_manny - 03-30-2013
Found out today that the motor/piston pictures I provided earlier were actually not from my motor.
Guess the shop was a bit early for April fools
Hope to provide an accurate update, as the information becomes available.
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - scout2000 - 09-18-2013
it looks like your last post was March 2013.
Any updates?
RE: how could my om617 be compromised so quickly? - mr_manny - 04-14-2014
(09-18-2013, 10:16 AM)scout2000 it looks like your last post was March 2013.
Any updates?
My nightmare has ended...drove home in my landcruiser last Saturday.
Still can't believe I have my fj40 back
It seemed to vibrate more then usual on the freeway, imagine the tires didn't appreciate sitting for nearly 2years.
Noticed an oil leak, valve cover gasket was replaced...will have to pull the skid-plate and investigate further.
Differences with this motor, over the old one?
Motor is from an 82 300D, so the turbo mounts lower then the previous (had to redo the exhaust).
Keeping the Original Mercedes Oil-Filter housing/system...no more spin-on remote-filter setup.
Max turbo boost is 8lbs...may bump to 10lbs as the previous.
the pyro is post turbo...where the old motor had the pyro at the rear cylinder.
Need to identify the new temperature ceiling.
I Also want to remove the EGR, have to see if the old parts work on the replacement motor.
Driving the fj40 around town yesterday, reminded me of how the sm465 manual transmission is sooooo not turbo friendly (especially with 35inch tires
).I also noticed that the ALDA isn't hooked up, which was also the case in the previous motor.
I found that this wasn't very high altitude friendly, so I will prob. be hooking it back up.
I am also thinking of building a injector pop tester...maybe try rebuilding the injectors myself.
Regarding the old motor.
Other then a compression test (which recorded low), nothing else has been done.
I did pull the following parts before the shop sent to the scrap yard:
Intake/Exhaust/Turbo
Vacuum pump
Injector pump
Injector lines
Injectors
If I decide to add an inter-cooler, the later intake manifold seems to be a good way to go.