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+--- Thread: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS (/showthread.php?tid=3630)
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OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - mantahead - 05-10-2012
Hi,
does anyone know how much more lift and duration om606 na cams have over turbo?
is there any difference in na head and turbo head, except cams?
i have both engines but never stripped them yet, would i be better to work on the na head or change the cams over and work on the turbo head.
Are the valves the same?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - bad3gakk - 05-10-2012
Some say turbo engine has sodium filled exhaust valves, and n/a doesnt.. lift of the head cover and try to measure the cams?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - tomnik - 05-11-2012
Hi,
from my understanding the cams are different in such a way that on n/a there is an overlap where both valves are open which is not the case on turbos.
There should be somewhere a diagram with valve opening/closing over crank position.
Also pre chambers are bigger (at least on 617 engines).
Tom
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - mantahead - 05-11-2012
hi,
thanks guys, i can't find much on this, would like to see that diagram. I suppose i could always put a degree wheel on the crank and use a dti on top of the bucket to measure duration
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - erling66 - 05-11-2012
Exhaust cams are the same on TB and N/A. Intake has more lift on N/A. I have not measured duration.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - dieselmerc - 05-11-2012
sure aboat more lift on 606 n/a? ive heard from a local engine mekanic (or what its called in english) that it´s the same cams?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - erling66 - 05-11-2012
(05-11-2012, 09:13 AM)dieselmerc sure aboat more lift on 606 n/a? ive heard from a local engine mekanic (or what its called in english) that it´s the same cams?
Yes the intake cam has more lift for sure
I have measured myself. But I don't have loose TD cams here now(only N/A cams) so I can not give you the measurements now. I can measure the N/A cams for you if you like.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - jeemu - 05-11-2012
(05-11-2012, 10:05 AM)erling66 Yes the intake cam has more lift for sureI have measured also. Actually we have take a copy of both cams at machine what can draw all information of those.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - 2996 - 05-11-2012
Ok, so if someone had a 606 turbo engine, and wanted better performance, all you would need to get is the NA intake cam?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - sassparilla_kid - 05-11-2012
(05-11-2012, 12:31 PM)2996 Ok, so if someone had a 606 turbo engine, and wanted better performance, all you would need to get is the NA intake cam?
That just seems too simple, I would find it hard to believe it would be such a simple cross application
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - dieselmerc - 05-13-2012
yes i would like to know the lift! and yes it would be that simple, they have the same "fastenings" they will fit between! or should
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - Booster - 05-13-2012
Not sure about the merc stuff but I know people put the Vauxhall C20xe Inlet cam into the Vauxhall C20LET which are the old NA and turbo 2L engines.. Its really that simple in those!
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - raysorenson - 05-13-2012
I'd suspect, and this is 100% conjecture here, that the NA cam opened sooner and closed later than the turbo cam. Any additional overlap over what the turbo motor was spec'd with, would result in more of the fresh air charge being pushed out of the cylinder and back into the intake by the higher exhaust pressure of the turbo engine, especially at lower rpms, and the intake charge would be diluted by inert and hotter exhaust gasses.
I had a 2.7l Audi S4 gasburner and tried using the NA 2.8l intake cams. Similarly, both engines used the same exhaust cam. The 2.8l engine's intake cams had significantly retarded centerline, increased duration, lift and resulting overlap. I lost low and midrange torque and only gained performance near redline. Any way you looked at the performance #s, regardless of peak HP#s, my car was just flat out slower than it was with turbo intake cams. Just thought I'd share.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EDH_Performance - 05-14-2012
I run a ported N/A head with N/A cams on my turbo OM606 block, works very well! But custom cams will come soon
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - erling66 - 05-14-2012
The N/A intake cam has a 8.9mm lift and exhaust has 9.3mm lift. The N/A and turbo exhaust cams have the same part number, but the intake cams have different numbers.
Maybe someone can measure the lift on a Turbo intake cam? I measured it a few years ago and If I remember correctly. it had 1mm less lift than the N/A cam and the duration appeared to be identical.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - mantahead - 05-18-2012
(05-14-2012, 09:50 AM)erling66 The N/A intake cam has a 8.9mm lift and exhaust has 9.3mm lift. The N/A and turbo exhaust cams have the same part number, but the intake cams have different numbers.hi Erling,
Maybe someone can measure the lift on a Turbo intake cam? I measured it a few years ago and If I remember correctly. it had 1mm less lift than the N/A cam and the duration appeared to be identical.
i measured turbo 606 cams today with dti on top of hydraulic bucket and got 9.3 on exhaust and 7.5 on inlet, so you are right on this, its the inlet cam that is different
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EDH_Performance - 06-11-2012
(05-14-2012, 09:50 AM)erling66 The N/A intake cam has a 8.9mm lift and exhaust has 9.3mm lift. The N/A and turbo exhaust cams have the same part number, but the intake cams have different numbers.
Maybe someone can measure the lift on a Turbo intake cam? I measured it a few years ago and If I remember correctly. it had 1mm less lift than the N/A cam and the duration appeared to be identical.
What about using a exhaust camshaft as an intake camshaft? I know the bmw guys use to intake cams in their m50 motors
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - dieselmerc - 06-11-2012
should work? will be problem to find "zero" or what its called on english, you know the two dots that should be against each outher when cams and engine are in O/T
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EDH_Performance - 06-11-2012
(06-11-2012, 09:38 AM)dieselmerc should work? will be problem to find "zero" or what its called on english, you know the two dots that should be against each outher when cams and engine are in O/T
I can check it out next time I am in the workshop...Just have to check if the loobs are in the same place
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - erling66 - 06-11-2012
I don't know about BMW but the 606 cams are rotating in different direction, so if you use an exhaust cam as an intake cam it will give you a opposite valve opening order. Then you will have more bent valves in your collection
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EDH_Performance - 06-11-2012
(06-11-2012, 01:45 PM)erling66 I don't know about BMW but the 606 cams are rotating in different direction, so if you use an exhaust cam as an intake cam it will give you a opposite valve opening order. Then you will have more bent valves in your collection
So true! The BMW engine has two camsprockets, meaning both rotates the same direction...Thanks Erling
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - 2996 - 06-13-2012
So, it is confirmed the 606 NA intake cam has more lift? What is the correct year or part number to order for the intake cam?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - raysorenson - 06-13-2012
(06-13-2012, 02:06 PM)2996 So, it is confirmed the 606 NA intake cam has more lift? What is the correct year or part number to order for the intake cam?
Nobody has measured duration or centerline, much less figured out change in overlap of the turbo VS the NA cams. Lift is of secondary importance to timing, even more so when you have a turbo forcefeeding the motor. Caveat emptor.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - mantahead - 06-14-2012
hi,
to get the best from the n/a cam then requires adjustable cam pulley.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EDH_Performance - 06-15-2012
(06-14-2012, 05:35 PM)mantahead hi,
to get the best from the n/a cam then requires adjustable cam pulley.
Do you meen the chainpulley, or the tiny timingsprocket that sits on the intake cam that needs to be adjustable?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - mantahead - 06-15-2012
(06-15-2012, 03:36 AM)EDH_Performanceusually with this type of setup, it is just the chain pulley that is adjustable but it would be nice to be able to adjust each cam individually.(06-14-2012, 05:35 PM)mantahead hi,
to get the best from the n/a cam then requires adjustable cam pulley.
Do you meen the chainpulley, or the tiny timingsprocket that sits on the intake cam that needs to be adjustable?
I think jeemu has a custom pulley.
for example, here is Toyota Glanza cams with adjustable pulley.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Toyota-Glanza-Turbo-EP91-Starlet-4E-FTE-Pair-Cam-Shafts-Camshafts-/140759915763?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item20c5f1dcf3
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Adjustable-Toyota-Starlet-4EFTE-EP82-EP91-PASEO-GLANZA-TERCEL-Cam-gear-pulley-/320910825793?pt=AU_Car_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4ab7c69941
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - 250td - 10-17-2012
Did anyone do anymore research on this? Are there any gains in using the N/A intake cam in a superturbo build? Or is there any performance cams out there?
Building a 605 with ported head and bigger valves. Thinking of maybe regrind the N/A cam if there isn't anything else out there.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - Siekkinen - 10-17-2012
Has anyone measured om603 cams? Does N/A engines cam have more lift?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EvoPeter - 01-07-2015
Any more info about this yet?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - raysorenson - 01-07-2015
Both 603 engines use the same part# for camshaft.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EvoPeter - 01-07-2015
(01-07-2015, 09:49 AM)raysorenson Both 603 engines use the same part# for camshaft.
That is a well known fact nowdays.
I was talking about om605/om606.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - raysorenson - 01-07-2015
Use quotes so people will know what you're talking about.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EvoPeter - 01-07-2015
(01-07-2015, 10:49 AM)raysorenson Use quotes so people will know what you're talking about.
Yeah. My bad on that.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - F.R.A.S - 01-08-2015
This is 1,4mm, now we don't now how old these cams are, when we measured we got super close to 2mm in difference.
It was also a big gain in performance.
(05-14-2012, 09:50 AM)erling66 The N/A intake cam has a 8.9mm lift and exhaust has 9.3mm lift. The N/A and turbo exhaust cams have the same part number, but the intake cams have different numbers.
Maybe someone can measure the lift on a Turbo intake cam? I measured it a few years ago and If I remember correctly. it had 1mm less lift than the N/A cam and the duration appeared to be identical.
(05-18-2012, 03:12 PM)mantahead hi Erling,
i measured turbo 606 cams today with dti on top of hydraulic bucket and got 9.3 on exhaust and 7.5 on inlet, so you are right on this, its the inlet cam that is different
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EvoPeter - 01-08-2015
(01-08-2015, 08:30 AM)F.R.A.S This is 1,4mm, now we don't now how old these cams are, when we measured we got super close to 2mm in difference.
Sounds good. Then i maybe have something to do next week when i have vaccation.
Do you know anything about the overlap/timing or should i put it straight in like in the N/A head?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - F.R.A.S - 01-08-2015
We just put it according to the markings (just put a little bolt in to keep the sprocket in place).
We drove the car with just a couple of days between and it was a noticeable difference.
(01-08-2015, 10:32 AM)EvoPeter Sounds good. Then i maybe have something to do next week when i have vaccation.
Do you know anything about the overlap/timing or should i put it straight in like in the N/A head?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EvoPeter - 01-08-2015
(01-08-2015, 01:22 PM)F.R.A.S We just put it according to the markings (just put a little bolt in to keep the sprocket in place).
We drove the car with just a couple of days between and it was a noticeable difference.
Heard that some people had problem with the timing gear getting of sideways retarding/advancing the timing of the intake cam. How can i check if that have happened with my engines if i change the cams?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - F.R.A.S - 01-09-2015
From my experience (in Swedish: Ingen regel utan undantag) the n/a cams stays in place longer. Those we have had have all been in place and all turbo cams have moved a bit.
Don't have a cam in front of me right now but I like to think there are markings on the cams so you know when it's straight or not.
(01-08-2015, 05:37 PM)EvoPeter Heard that some people had problem with the timing gear getting of sideways retarding/advancing the timing of the intake cam. How can i check if that have happened with my engines if i change the cams?
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - Duncansport - 01-09-2015
(01-09-2015, 04:19 AM)F.R.A.S From my experience (in Swedish: Ingen regel utan undantag) the n/a cams stays in place longer. Those we have had have all been in place and all turbo cams have moved a bit.
Don't have a cam in front of me right now but I like to think there are markings on the cams so you know when it's straight or not.
(01-08-2015, 05:37 PM)EvoPeter Heard that some people had problem with the timing gear getting of sideways retarding/advancing the timing of the intake cam. How can i check if that have happened with my engines if i change the cams?
There are two small dots or pin hols that line up with the cam bearing..
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EvoPeter - 01-09-2015
(01-09-2015, 07:49 AM)Duncansport There are two small dots or pin hols that line up with the cam bearing..
Thats true.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EvoPeter - 01-24-2015
Update on cams. I did not remove my intake cam on my N/A daily driver because i did not have the hoses for injector drain.
So i went to a junkyard 100km from my house were i found a w124 with a om605.910 engine and took the intake cam from that one.
To my disapointment both my om605.960 and the w124 om605.910 shared the same part# 6050511101. But i checked this in EPC and i can not find any such part# in there. According to the EPC N/A cams should be 6050500701 or 6050501301. Turbo should have 6050501601.
Well i knew that one was from a turbo and one from a N/A so i did some meassurement. I could see that the N/A cam had a little bit of wear on the knocks but i could meassure that the N/A cam still had 1mm more lift.
From what i could see with my eye is that duration and timing was the same between both cams.
EDIT: From my meassurement:
Turbo cam lift: 7,5mm
N/A cam lift: 8,5mm
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - barrote - 01-24-2015
hello there,
for those who can spare some time to read the right info regarding the cams on N/A vs TD just take a look at the link below, and u can see the lift duration and timing, and lift size on both the 605/6 engine same for 604 . the conclusion is:
yes the exaust cams are the same, open 25º before BDC close 14º before TDC.
intake N/A 12º open after TDC / TD open 12º after TDC
intake N/A 13º close after BDC/ TD 0º close after BDC
so there is very few overlap , but there is inertia conserns.
i have a N/A head in my super---turbo and it works fine. never tried a TD one , my engine is converted from NA.
N/A cam lift has 1 mm more.
http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/W124/Index/605_606/05Engine.htm,
regards
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EvoPeter - 01-24-2015
(01-24-2015, 04:47 PM)barrote hello there,
for those who can spare some time to read the right info regarding the cams on N/A vs TD just take a look at the link below, and u can see the lift duration and timing, and lift size on both the 605/6 engine same for 604 . the conclusion is:
yes the exaust cams are the same, open 25º before BDC close 14º before TDC.
intake N/A 12º open after TDC / TD open 12º after TDC
intake N/A 13º close after BDC/ TD 0º close after BDC
so there is very few overlap , but there is inertia conserns.
i have a N/A head in my super---turbo and it works fine. never tried a TD one , my engine is converted from NA.
N/A cam lift has 1 mm more.
http://w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%20CD/W124/Index/605_606/05Engine.htm,
regards
Wow. My hat of to you.
Was about to turn in my cams to a company to have them meassured because i want to know what i put in my engine.
To avoid overlap is it not possible to retard the intake cam 1 tooth?
Nevermind. 1 tooth will do 16,7º. Half a tooth would be good. It will do about 8,35º.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - barrote - 01-24-2015
u dont need to do nothing like that, if u want to adjust something outside stock, u can play with the inlet sproket. usually the sproket stays in place by a pin. open the pin hole and slide the sproket back and forth acording to what u want. the open new holes to bolt the sproket in place.
my opinion, use the valves as MB salys in the book. those germans knew about what they were doing.
regards
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - raysorenson - 01-24-2015
[Cracks fingers in preparation for keyboard tuning]
This is typical of an engine that comes in both turbo and N/A versions. The intake opening stays unchanged, the N/A has more duration and a later closing point.
Later intake closing works in an NA engine because closing the valve after the piston is already moving up on the compression stroke can result in a better charge, accounting for the slower fill time of an intake port with only atmospheric pressure. When you have a turbo engine, the danger in a later closing is that the cylinder pressure rises higher than intake port pressure before the valve closes and some of the charge is pushed back out. Another factor to consider is that long rod engines like the 60x have less piston dwell near BDC making them more sensitive to intake closing angle.
If you could easily remove the gear and advance the intake cam, giving the engine as much overlap as it will tolerate, you could see significant improvements provided you have a big enough turbo and a good exhaust manifold. If you're using a stock manifold, cams are the last thing you should be thinking about.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - barrote - 01-25-2015
in my point of view theres no gain in having both exaust and intake valves opened at same time in the turbo version of a engine.
what do we want , fill the cylinder with air as much as we can , so having the exaust open when that is happening cand lead to a leak and partial pressure at the cylinder being lower than the rest of intake(remember bernouli´s) giving a false sensation of high pressure.
there are engines wich have a lot of overlap , but those engines ate N/A. there are even engine makers wich make use of cinetic energy from exaust to scoop air in the cylinder. a procedure very often used in 2stroke small engines.
what do i do to my 605, if i though it would benefit anything, just grind the NA cam to the opening and closing nrs or the original turbo , and maintain the lift.
agree with raysorenson, there are a lot of work to be done before one thinks of cam improvement.
regards
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - raysorenson - 01-25-2015
Barrote, there are 2 schools of thought with turbocharging.
A small turbo mounted to a manifold with low volume on an engine with conservative intake cam timing will yield a responsive turbo motor that's weak at higher rpms.
A large turbo sized so that exhaust manifold pressure is lower than intake manifold pressure, mounted to a larger volume tubular exhaust manifold (header) on an engine with valve overlap.
I won't argue for either, there's way smarter people than me all over the internets doing it for me. here's one http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1011-cams-for-turbocharged-engines/
There are a bunch more, but I'll let you do the googling. "valve overlap turbo engine"
The only thing I should mention here that's diesel specific is that too much overlap can reduce static compression to the point that your engine won't start, so you have to be careful there.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - EvoPeter - 01-25-2015
I took the numbers from the Mercedes workshop manual with the cam and used it on an online calculators that use the calculation @1mm lift. Mercedes numbers is @2mm lift.
According to that there is no overlap between the intake and exaust. Means when the piston is in TDC both valves is closed. Difference is just that intake is open a little bit longer before the compression stroke starts.
This is my result:
Your Turbo has an Overlap of -26.00 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 168.00 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 191.00 degrees. Your Lobe Separation Angle is 102.75 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 96.00 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 109.50 degrees BTDC.
Your N/A has an Overlap of -26.00 degrees and has in Intake Duration of 181.00 degrees. The Exhaust Duration is 191.00 degrees. Your Lobe Separation Angle is 106.00 degrees. The Inlet Cam has an Installed Centerline of 102.50 degrees ATDC. The exhaust cam has an Installed Centerline of 109.50 degrees BTDC.
I might be totaly off track here maybe?
EDIT: Spelling error
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - raysorenson - 01-25-2015
Sounds right on. Thanks for the info.
Overlap is dangerous territory on a diesel. As I understand, intake closing is the most important event that will make or break your cam setup. Tightening the lobe separation angle by advancing timing on an NA intake cam would make the cam swap worthwhile.
RE: OM606 NA CAMS V TURBO CAMS - barrote - 01-25-2015
(01-25-2015, 09:21 AM)raysorenson Barrote, there are 2 schools of thought with turbocharging.
A small turbo mounted to a manifold with low volume on an engine with conservative intake cam timing will yield a responsive turbo motor that's weak at higher rpms.
A large turbo sized so that exhaust manifold pressure is lower than intake manifold pressure, mounted to a larger volume tubular exhaust manifold (header) on an engine with valve overlap.
I won't argue for either, there's way smarter people than me all over the internets doing it for me. here's one http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1011-cams-for-turbocharged-engines/
There are a bunch more, but I'll let you do the googling. "valve overlap turbo engine"
The only thing I should mention here that's diesel specific is that too much overlap can reduce static compression to the point that your engine won't start, so you have to be careful there.
yep ray pretty much my idea of thinking , what is hard to belive is that i can create a turbo set up with a higher intake pressure than EGP.
not saying is not feaseable , just i dont know how to do it, or i dont have enough money to get it done.
MB engeneers might have a very good point to build a 605td and N/A as it is.
in my case i have N/A cams cause there are the ones i have in good shape at the moment , soon soon a new hybrid 605 will come to life , that one will have stock cams. then i´ll post here my findings.
have a nice sunday.