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+--- Thread: MW pump DV upgrade (/showthread.php?tid=3798)
MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 07-18-2012
I'm looking to upgrade the delivery valves in my MW Injection Pump. I know Dieselmeken is the bomb but is there anyone in the states that can do this?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Simpler=Better - 07-19-2012
The DVs can be cut by a good machine shop, however that will give you a rough idle and really high EGTs.
As for getting new elements ($$$$), I don't know anyone stateside. Have you had a chance to read through the 600 page pump document?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 07-19-2012
I am looking at a couple of different DV designs to make or mod and use with the 10mm elements, but haven't settled on any one concept yet.
The cheapest way to make a change is to use a stronger DV spring.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - tomnik - 07-19-2012
(07-19-2012, 11:27 AM)OM616 I am looking at a couple of different DV designs to make or mod and use with the 10mm elements, but haven't settled on any one concept yet.
The cheapest way to make a change is to use a stronger DV spring.
I am working on DVs since some weeks with first results.
It is not correct that modified DVs cause a rough idle when done properly.
But with large DVs you get kind of turbo lag.
I went down the other direction but have now too much fuel on low rpm range. It is like ALDA adjustment in some kind.
I might get further down until I get post spray, maybe I have it already but only when slapping the pedal...
Tom
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 07-19-2012
(07-19-2012, 11:27 AM)OM616 I am looking at a couple of different DV designs to make or mod and use with the 10mm elements, but haven't settled on any one concept yet.
The cheapest way to make a change is to use a stronger DV spring.
10mm!!! Wow. I was thinking 6.5 or 7.5. Can you get enough air in the cylinder to burn that much fuel? Probably a stupid question but I'm pretty new to this stuff.
Do you know anyone in the states that makes larger delivery valves?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 07-19-2012
(07-19-2012, 06:17 PM)Torkey(07-19-2012, 11:27 AM)OM616 I am looking at a couple of different DV designs to make or mod and use with the 10mm elements, but haven't settled on any one concept yet.
The cheapest way to make a change is to use a stronger DV spring.
10mm!!! Wow. I was thinking 6.5 or 7.5. Can you get enough air in the cylinder to burn that much fuel? Probably a stupid question but I'm pretty new to this stuff.
Do you know anyone in the states that makes larger delivery valves?
I mod the 10mm element to output less fuel, they are the only size that can be consistently obtained for the MW.
I am intrigued with your statement that you are new to this stuff and you picked a very technical component to want to change, any reason why you want to change them? What is your goal?
As for anyone here in the USA, there have been a couple of shops that have done some pumps, but no one that specializes in performance work. Cost seems to be the limiting factor from what I have found.
____________________
Tom,
My concern with the DV is in two areas, one being that the more fuel that is delivered, the displaced volume is also increased, which lowers the post injection line pressure hence retarding the start of the next injection. I desire a constant displacement DV for consistent timing, not to be confused with a constant pressure DV.
Second is that the MW DV plunger ring is completely ejected from the barrel at about 40ish CC pre K output, and with the larger elements, the DV plunger can be thrown due to the high rate of injection, and at high speed, everything goes to hell, high EGTs and smoke result.
Unfortunately I have not been able to find a chart that calls out the dimensions of each DV to pick one that might be good starting point for what I want.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 07-20-2012
(07-19-2012, 11:27 AM)OM616 I mod the 10mm element to output less fuel, they are the only size that can be consistently obtained for the MW.
I am intrigued with your statement that you are new to this stuff and you picked a very technical component to want to change, any reason why you want to change them? What is your goal?
As for anyone here in the USA, there have been a couple of shops that have done some pumps, but no one that specializes in performance work. Cost seems to be the limiting factor from what I have found.
The science of injection pumps is new to me and something I am looking at to get more performance out of my car. The car is used for endurance races. Most of the people that I compete with have more horsepower. So I am looking for more horsepower.
I understand the expense of doing an upgrade like this but I am willing to pay the price. There is a Bosche shop here in town that has done a great job of setting up the pump, but they haven't been able to find larger delivery valves and they agree that larger DVs in the next step in getting better performance.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 07-20-2012
(07-20-2012, 07:39 AM)Torkey The science of injection pumps is new to me and something I am looking at to get more performance out of my car. The car is used for endurance races. Most of the people that I compete with have more horsepower. So I am looking for more horsepower.
I understand the expense of doing an upgrade like this but I am willing to pay the price. There is a Bosche shop here in town that has done a great job of setting up the pump, but they haven't been able to find larger delivery valves and they agree that larger DVs in the next step in getting better performance.
I would caution you at this point as a couple of things you said got my attention, one being that they are a Bosch shop, I have attended some Bosch pump training classes and can tell you that they really do not like it when a shop strays from their specs, and as such, not many guys have real world performance tuning experience, Second is that they can not find any "larger" DVs, which means that they have never actually tested "larger" DVs in your type of pump to "know" beyond a guess, that your current DVs are the limiting performance factor.
Any DV other than stock will be for a different pump, or at least application, as their design is based on line volume, length, delivered quantity, and RPM.
You can get Bosch 8mm elements for the MW for about $250.00 ish ea, (if I recall correctly), cheaper 8mm Chinese elements are available some times, but everyone who has actually sent in money has gotten burned, that is why I am working with 10mm elements.
I do not have a horse in the race so to speak, but it would bode you well to talk to Tom as he has real world testing experience with elements and DVs.
What it the Max EGT reading at full power you are getting?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Gearbound - 07-22-2012
im looking for more fuel too. so has anyone gotten 10mm elements? cutting DV sounds like a cheap alternative to more fuel and yes this will have a bad idle but there are adjustments on the pump to correct that.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 07-23-2012
(07-22-2012, 03:29 PM)Gearbound im looking for more fuel too. so has anyone gotten 10mm elements? cutting DV sounds like a cheap alternative to more fuel and yes this will have a bad idle but there are adjustments on the pump to correct that.
One other member has had unmolested 10mm elements put in his MW, and I have done one MW with some modded P pump elements.
I have ordered a sample of a different 10mm element (thin) to see if it will be a better candidate to rework as the thick elements use different DV holders and require longer studs.
There are several different 10mm elements available that will fit the MW pump.
I agree that the stock DV is cutting back some upper end fueling while at the same time retarding the timing ( the advance mechanism tries to compensate for that).
After scratching out a couple DV ideas that would do what I want, I keep coming back to a very simple design that is a compromise, but I think would be better than the stock ones.
DVs have a lot of influence when balancing the elements, that is why the idle tends to go to hell after they are modded. Ideally, after they are modded, the IP needs to be put on a calibration machine and the elements rebalanced as best as possible.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 07-23-2012
(07-20-2012, 12:25 PM)OM616 What it the Max EGT reading at full power you are getting?
On long straight sections of track we can hit over 1,000 degrees. Drivers are told to back off on the throttle when that happens.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - raysorenson - 07-23-2012
(07-23-2012, 03:46 PM)OM616 Ideally, after they are modded, the IP needs to be put on a calibration machine and the elements rebalanced as best as possible.
Has anyone ever done this to an MW pump? I like my MW pumps because they have ALDA's, rack position sensors (mine do, at least) and they just look better on paper compared to an M pump, but if nobody on Earth is going to calibrate them and play with the timing curve, then I'd rather have a turbo M pump modded.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 07-24-2012
(07-23-2012, 04:32 PM)Torkey(07-20-2012, 12:25 PM)OM616 What it the Max EGT reading at full power you are getting?
On long straight sections of track we can hit over 1,000 degrees. Drivers are told to back off on the throttle when that happens.
You can run at least 1200 degrees with out any problem, higher for short periods of time.
Modded DVs will only make the temps climb higher faster.
How much boost are you running and is there an inner cooler?
The governor can be set up for aggressive track racing, but the adjustments are no where close to stock so not many Bosch shops will have a clue. I built one for a friend and eliminated the Torque Control and Max Speed governors, leaving only the Idle Governor operational. The driver had to be instrument rated for sure, but with you foot directly in control of the fueling it really went like hell, lots of smoke of course, but it could be controlled if it was not driven On or OFF all the time, lol.
If you feel you are up to it, I am willing to talk you through the adjustments to get more out of the engine.
(07-23-2012, 09:23 PM)raysorenson(07-23-2012, 03:46 PM)OM616 Ideally, after they are modded, the IP needs to be put on a calibration machine and the elements rebalanced as best as possible.
Has anyone ever done this to an MW pump? I like my MW pumps because they have ALDA's, rack position sensors (mine do, at least) and they just look better on paper compared to an M pump, but if nobody on Earth is going to calibrate them and play with the timing curve, then I'd rather have a turbo M pump modded.
You have a late model MW with the electronic feed back circuit for the EGR I believe.
I agree with you regarding the MW being better than the M, that is why I have focused my time on the MW and not the M.
To my knowledge, I am the only one that has experience the MW in regards to tuning it outside the Stock parameters. The RW governor is a very flexible unit if one knows how to tune it.
I will offer you the same as I did Torkey, if you feel up to it, I am willing to talk you through the governor adjustments to get more performance out of it.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 07-24-2012
Quote:How much boost are you running and is there an inner cooler?
We're running 13 lbs boost. Intercooler is next on the list.
Quote:The governor can be set up for aggressive track racing, but the adjustments are no where close to stock so not many Bosch shops will have a clue. I built one for a friend and eliminated the Torque Control and Max Speed governors, leaving only the Idle Governor operational. The driver had to be instrument rated for sure, but with you foot directly in control of the fueling it really went like hell, lots of smoke of course, but it could be controlled if it was not driven On or OFF all the time, lol.Ready, willing and able (with your help of course)
If you feel you are up to it, I am willing to talk you through the adjustments to get more out of the engine.
I sent you a PM.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - raysorenson - 07-24-2012
(07-24-2012, 12:46 PM)OM616 You have a late model MW with the electronic feed back circuit for the EGR I believe.
Yep. Both of "my" 617's (one is in my GF's TD) are from 1985 federal models. The sensor makes it more convenient to add electronic whodjits that require engine load info.
OM616 I agree with you regarding the MW being better than the M, that is why I have focused my time on the MW and not the M.
To my knowledge, I am the only one that has experience the MW in regards to tuning it outside the Stock parameters. The RW governor is a very flexible unit if one knows how to tune it.
I will offer you the same as I did Torkey, if you feel up to it, I am willing to talk you through the governor adjustments to get more performance out of it.
Thank you for the offer. If I'm not mistaken you've authored a document that I've used with success on the '85 TD on my first conservative attempt at adjustments. Zero driveability or smoke issues after the first swipe. I intend to make another conservative set of adjustments for a little more power. This information is much appreciated.
What I'm interested in knowing is if anyone can balance fuel flow once the elements have been replaced for larger ones and if injection timing can be adjusted judiciously for performance with an MW. An MW pump with larger elements is my pump of choice for the 617, but if Myna or Dieselmeken are able to offer a more rounded product with the M pump, then that's what I'll go with. I understand turning the DV's will make good power but the engine I intend to mod will go into an FJ40 Landcruiser (heavy brick in the wind) that will have to tow a utility trailer on occasion. It will be well intercooled with an adequate turbo, but I don't want to have to worry about high EGT's due to super long injection duration.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - ronnie - 07-24-2012
reaming out the pc burn holes will help a lot with egts once you have the ip where you want it. Even before getting the ip fully up to where you want enlargeing the burn holes is of value.
I am at three turns on the torque control. and still well behaved, of course with all other things adjusted for it to play well. egts top out at about 1050-1100 right now.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 07-25-2012
(07-24-2012, 08:26 PM)raysorenson Thank you for the offer. If I'm not mistaken you've authored a document that I've used with success on the '85 TD on my first conservative attempt at adjustments. Zero driveability or smoke issues after the first swipe. I intend to make another conservative set of adjustments for a little more power. This information is much appreciated.
I am glad to hear that the info has been helpful.
(07-24-2012, 08:26 PM)raysorenson What I'm interested in knowing is if anyone can balance fuel flow once the elements have been replaced for larger ones and if injection timing can be adjusted judiciously for performance with an MW.
Any pump shop can replace the 5.5mm elements with larger ones and balance them, the question is what size elements you want to use.
What do you mean my " if the injection timing can be adjusted judiciously for performance with an MW" ? The injection timing is set by rotating the pump on the engine just like any other pump, and MB uses a mechanical advance control mechanism to advance the timing as RPM is increased. I want to play with one to see if I can re-curve it how I want. Is that what you are talking about?
(07-24-2012, 08:26 PM)raysorenson An MW pump with larger elements is my pump of choice for the 617, but if Myna or Dieselmeken are able to offer a more rounded product with the M pump, then that's what I'll go with.
I would say get a quote from a pump shop to swap the elements, set the idle quantity and full load to stock settings, then you can turn it up from there. As I recall, there was a shop that would do that for $500.00 + elements.
(07-24-2012, 08:26 PM)raysorenson I understand turning the DV's will make good power but the engine I intend to mod will go into an FJ40 Landcruiser (heavy brick in the wind) that will have to tow a utility trailer on occasion. It will be well intercooled with an adequate turbo, but I don't want to have to worry about high EGT's due to super long injection duration.
The stock Governor is set up to start reducing fueling quickly to reduce emissions and such. You can increase the fuel at the lower half of the RPM range and pick up a good amount of torque with the stock elements .
This can be done by adjusting the Torque Control and High Speed Governors, I have even replaced the stock Torque Control spring with a stiffer one to increase the low-mid range fueling without pushing the adjustments to their extremes.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - raysorenson - 07-25-2012
(07-25-2012, 12:11 PM)OM616 What do you mean my " if the injection timing can be adjusted judiciously for performance with an MW" ? The injection timing is set by rotating the pump on the engine just like any other pump, and MB uses a mechanical advance control mechanism to advance the timing as RPM is increased. I want to play with one to see if I can re-curve it how I want. Is that what you are talking about?
That's exactly what I mean. Lots of stuff changes with additional fueling and air, plus Mercedes was worried about stuff like NOx with their weaksauce tuning. I assume there's a lot to be desired, performance-wise, from the injection timing curve.
OM616 I would say get a quote from a pump shop to swap the elements, set the idle quantity and full load to stock settings, then you can turn it up from there. As I recall, there was a shop that would do that for $500.00 + elements.
Well there you go. Problem solved! Once I get things squared away on the 4x4 swap such as intercooling and a bigger turbo, I'll look into bigger elements for my MW. Thanks.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 07-29-2012
(07-19-2012, 11:27 AM)OM616 I am looking at a couple of different DV designs to make or mod and use with the 10mm elements, but haven't settled on any one concept yet.
The cheapest way to make a change is to use a stronger DV spring.
I would like to pursue the stronger DV springs. Do you know a source where I could get those?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Hercules - 07-29-2012
I would second THAT!
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - sassparilla_kid - 07-29-2012
Will stronger DV springs cause idle or other problems?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 07-30-2012
(07-29-2012, 07:45 PM)Torkey I would like to pursue the stronger DV springs. Do you know a source where I could get those?
Bosch may have different ones for different applications, but you will need a rebel pump shop to help you source one out.
I took some measurements of one and picked out a new one from a spring manufacturer, but that was for the 10mm pump.
The idle was on the edge of being lopey, but that is not a good description of how it sounded, it was not ruff, but not perfectly smooth either, it was like it was itching to go.
The springs helped the mid and top end, but that was with the 10s, 5.5s may see more of a effect.
I will have to look to see if I can find the part number for the spring I used and the specks.
On a side note, the sample NEW 10mm thin element I ordered was on my porch when I got home. I like it, I am also tempted to run them with out modding the helix. I have to do some figuring yet though. It was $11.30 + shipping, so they are cheep. I did notice with the ones that I did grind that the consistency of the helix from element to element did very, and after grinding them they balanced up very nicely, so I may end up doing it anyway, just for quality control.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 07-31-2012
Are you selling the modified 10mm?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - sassparilla_kid - 07-31-2012
(07-30-2012, 04:29 PM)OM616 The idle was on the edge of being lopey, but that is not a good description of how it sounded, it was not ruff, but not perfectly smooth either, it was like it was itching to go.
The springs helped the mid and top end, but that was with the 10s, 5.5s may see more of a effect.
I will have to look to see if I can find the part number for the spring I used and the specks.
By "more of a effect", do you think it will be a good effect or negative? or unknown effect?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 07-31-2012
(07-31-2012, 09:00 PM)sassparilla_kid(07-30-2012, 04:29 PM)OM616 The idle was on the edge of being lopey, but that is not a good description of how it sounded, it was not ruff, but not perfectly smooth either, it was like it was itching to go.
The springs helped the mid and top end, but that was with the 10s, 5.5s may see more of a effect.
I will have to look to see if I can find the part number for the spring I used and the specks.
By "more of a effect", do you think it will be a good effect or negative? or unknown effect?
With the 5.5s I would say unknown effect as I personally have not bothered with playing with the 5.5s.
The Ideal scenario would be to rebalance the elements after changing the springs, the DVs have a lot of influence on the high and low speed output balance. I swapped them on the car as an "oh shit" change. I did not check the effect the new springs had on the balance.
As for selling the 10mm elements, I have to build a couple of 10mm MW pumps for myself and a couple of others. If you want to get some let me know, I am figuring out how many I need to order.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 08-22-2012
Thanks for the help OM616. The pump adjustments worked great and I've got more fuel than I need at the moment.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 08-24-2012
(08-22-2012, 01:41 PM)Torkey Thanks for the help OM616. The pump adjustments worked great and I've got more fuel than I need at the moment.
A 28HP increase is not bad for your first round of adjustments. You will be able to get more once you have the air to burn it.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Simpler=Better - 08-24-2012
How did he get +28hp?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 08-24-2012
(08-24-2012, 12:16 PM)Simpler=Better How did he get +28hp?
This is a snipit of a PM he sent me;
"I wanted to let you know that I've completed the governor adjustments and all I can say is "WOW!" What a difference. I took the car to the dyno and saw 28 more HP. I was elated. The pump has more fuel to give."
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Secondaries - 08-25-2012
Was this done on a stock MW pump? Would this be considered a "race only" tune? If i could make +28 hp for the daily commute i'd be ecstatic.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 08-25-2012
(08-25-2012, 08:18 AM)Secondaries Was this done on a stock MW pump? Would this be considered a "race only" tune? If i could make +28 hp for the daily commute i'd be ecstatic.
It's a stock MW pump. I don't consider it a race only tune but it does require installing an EGT. Too much fuel and not enough air equals a melted turbine. You'll also need to increase the turbo boost to compensate for the extra fuel.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Secondaries - 08-25-2012
(08-25-2012, 08:43 AM)Torkey(08-25-2012, 08:18 AM)Secondaries Was this done on a stock MW pump? Would this be considered a "race only" tune? If i could make +28 hp for the daily commute i'd be ecstatic.
It's a stock MW pump. I don't consider it a race only tune but it does require installing an EGT. Too much fuel and not enough air equals a melted turbine. You'll also need to increase the turbo boost to compensate for the extra fuel.
I would increase boost if i could provide fuel to utilize it. Are these adjustments more tailored to upper RPM power or take off power? I'd live to get those instructions also...
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Hercules - 08-25-2012
I would second THAT.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 08-29-2012
You are a hero now Torkey !! Don't let it go to your head
lolAny chance you have printouts of the before and after pulls?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Torkey - 08-31-2012
(08-29-2012, 11:58 AM)OM616 You are a hero now Torkey !! Don't let it go to your head
Any chance you have printouts of the before and after pulls?
You are the hero OM616. I couldn't have done without you and the awesome write up you did on the RW governor.
No printouts of the dyno pulls, unfortunately.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Secondaries - 08-31-2012
Ok, I was trying to be patient, but I'll be "that guy".
Can we get a hold of the write up you did for the governor settings, OM616? With a nice juicy "NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY SCREWUPS YOU MIGHT PULL" disclaimer?
I know how you feel but even if the write up is just an explanation for what the individual screws do, etc, I'd be very grateful.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - aaa - 08-31-2012
Bosch M and Mw pump theory
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - ronnie - 08-31-2012
even though you do not have printouts for the hp numbers mind saying what there are?
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - OM616 - 08-31-2012
(08-31-2012, 03:38 PM)Secondaries Ok, I was trying to be patient, but I'll be "that guy".
Can we get a hold of the write up you did for the governor settings, OM616? With a nice juicy "NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY SCREWUPS YOU MIGHT PULL" disclaimer?
I know how you feel but even if the write up is just an explanation for what the individual screws do, etc, I'd be very grateful.
lol.... did you think that I am in control of that doc?...nope...not me...I just wrote it....it is the forum's now....I have nothing to do with it's availability or lack their of.
RE: MW pump DV upgrade - Captain America - 09-07-2012
Great thread, and inspiration to finish mine!
Keep up the work Mr. 616, your knowledge is invaluable !