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+--- Thread: OM648 swap into a w123 (/showthread.php?tid=3913)
OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 09-10-2012
Well I ordered an engine and will be working on using the factory cdi module for a little bit with my standalone tcu. Factory 722.6 tip shifter. My plan is to work out the DAS module 1st and then get the can messaging on line for the PCS tcu to work with the factory cdi module. If this fails a Bosch Motorsports ecu will be used. Hope to have it up and running next spring some time. Will post back with updates when I have any.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - aaa - 09-10-2012
So where does a factory cdi module come from?
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - JustPassinThru - 09-11-2012
Hehe...I want a ride in it.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 09-11-2012
The factory cdi module is Bosch also. Just not programmable and requires certain messaging to start and drive.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - Tmadia - 09-11-2012
Sounds like a very cool project. Please keep us updated!
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 09-15-2012
So I have been looking around. I was wondering if anyone know what the differences between a om613 and a om648 are. I assume it is mostly emissions items.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - HoleshotHolset - 09-16-2012
(09-15-2012, 09:48 AM)whipplem104 So I have been looking around. I was wondering if anyone know what the differences between a om613 and a om648 are. I assume it is mostly emissions items.
(11-03-2010, 01:58 AM)ForcedInduction(11-03-2010, 01:27 AM)diesel2fast4u OM613 & 648 I6 CDI's : How are the internals of these engines? Comparable to 606 or weaker?The last good diesels Mercedes designed. Basically identical except for an electronic turbo and piezo injectors on the 648
Are you having much luck finding a 613 or a 648? Last time I looked around, they were quite rare.
Beers,
Matt
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 09-16-2012
I have a 648 on the way. 4k shipped minus turbo and alternator. Otherwise complete. I have a turbo.
I am working on can bus stuff. I just transmitted a rpm message from my lap top to a instrument cluster. Very excited.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - HoleshotHolset - 09-16-2012
$4k isn't bad at all - good find!
Messing around with CAN is on my to-do list...very cool.
Beers,
Matt
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - Punchi - 09-30-2012
Hello everyone, well I am a newbie here, but just wanted to help (if I can) as I am thinking of a similar project, but on a W201. The basic block on the 648 is very similar to the 613 (I think one drilled hole is the only difference) but the heads are totaly different. The injectors however are not piezo, but not the same either.
My main problem resides in the instrument cluster, as I want the speedo and rpm to work, but they arent CAN operated. In regard to DAS, I just plan to use the ezs and the whole authorization system.
Sadly I am not a craftsman as some you guys here are (hopefully I can help from you guys on this subject) but I know a thing or 2 in regard to MB Electronics.
Where is you 648 coming from a w211?.
Hope I can help.
Cheers.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - majesty78 - 09-30-2012
@Punchi:
Can you tell me how to slave RPM and throttle position sensor for external data logger?
Car is a W210 320CDI with EDC15C6.
So far I found pinout of TPS sensor but as it has 5 wires I don't know which is transmitting the 0-100% signal.
For engine RPM signal I found nothing how and where it is generated and transmitted :-(
BR
Alex
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - Punchi - 09-30-2012
@majesty78
RPM signal is sent through the CAN (CAN is a network where neally all the ecu's are attached to sharing data between them) by the engine ecu, its generated by the Crankshaft Position Sensor. I have no idea how to get that data out from the network.
Tomorrow I can replay you in regard to the TPS sensor wires as I have the schematics at work.
Cheers,
Nelson.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 09-30-2012
Punchi,
Any help is great. I have a motor from a w211 e class. I am planning on using the stock cdi but sending my own das message on the can bus. I just figured out the actual start message today. I still need to break down the authorization messages.
Majesty78,
The tps value is fairly simple. One the pedal sensor there should be two redundant sensors. One goes from low to high and the other goes the opposite. There will be a 5vlt reference and a ground and signal for each. Put a volt meter on and check power and ground and then for reference when you move the gas pedal. There is not a rpm output from the engine management as mentioned it is on CAN bus. You can pick up the cam sensor though if you logger is adjustable.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - diesel2fast4u - 10-30-2012
(09-15-2012, 09:48 AM)whipplem104 So I have been looking around. I was wondering if anyone know what the differences between a om613 and a om648 are. I assume it is mostly emissions items.
rail pressure also, 613 has 1300 bar vs 1600
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - raysorenson - 10-30-2012
(09-30-2012, 08:06 PM)whipplem104 I just figured out the actual start message today. I still need to break down the authorization messages.
I know I may be asking too much, but how did you identify a message? Are you using an oscilloscope? I've looked at the HS CAN on a scope in a few vehicles, mainly for network troubleshooting, but I'm curious how I could identify which module is doing the talking to which module it's talking. I know it's a big question but any info would help.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 11-09-2012
(10-30-2012, 09:42 AM)raysorenson(09-30-2012, 08:06 PM)whipplem104 I just figured out the actual start message today. I still need to break down the authorization messages.
I know I may be asking too much, but how did you identify a message? Are you using an oscilloscope? I've looked at the HS CAN on a scope in a few vehicles, mainly for network troubleshooting, but I'm curious how I could identify which module is doing the talking to which module it's talking. I know it's a big question but any info would help.
You have to get a device for reading CAN. I have a P-CAN from PEAK.
Then you have to figure out which modules are sending which messages and then figure out what each one means. It is all in hex. You then have to figure out how to convert the hex into an actual value. So what I do is look for a particular message that I want to find. Say wheel speed. I know that comes from traction. So figure out what ids are traction and then what hex value changes with wheel speed. Then you have to compare that hex value to a actual wheels speed say in actual values in the SDS. Then figure out how to convert. Say hex is FA. Decimal value 255, wheel speed 25mph. Then get another value point and figure out the conversion. It can be a multiplier or simple add or minus or straight value.
The drive authorization unfortunately is a Hash function encoded message. The only way to break this down is with what is called brute force. Basically a program throughing values at it until one sticks. Then you can easily figure out the base message from that. This part is above my pay grade but I have talked to some folks about it and may pursue working on it. Although there may be easier methods of dealing with DAS.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 08-07-2013
Well, this is a little premature but I might have a line on getting the immo disabled on the factory ecu. No keys, eis, esl. We are still looking into it but it seems like it might be doable. I have a couple other back up plans before I finally give up and go with the Bosch Motorsports ecu. I will still have to send some CAN messages to the ecu for it to work but this will be relatively simple.
It will take a little time to get the code written and implemented for the CAN messages but I have mostly worked out the bugs. Just the immo to get through.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - giorgosktel82 - 12-01-2013
hello!
you could put the whole system from a w210 320 cdi.
it is cheaper than bosch motorsports and it has more options (esp,cruise conroll,tiptronic e.t.c)
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 12-04-2013
We do not have the w210 e320 in the states and I thought about going this route with a w211 but it really is not cheaper if you have to buy a whole car and then getting the traction control and wheel speed sensors to all work is really not an easy thing to do.
I hope to make this a very simple swap for others to do in the future as well. The only reason I am holding out for the oe ecu is cost and you cannot beat factory tuning. If we get around the DAS then it is easy to repeat and a used ecu is fairly cheap. Combine this with a fully functioning standalone tcu and you have a complete engine driveline setup to put into any car. I am planning on making the original tcu work as well with an additional module that will be handling all the CAN messages to make it all work.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - Ksteen2 - 12-06-2013
are you any closer to getting it done?
I would love to se it done!
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 12-06-2013
I have someone working on the coding for the DAS for me. He is doing it as a favor and so I am not rushing him. I also need to drive the car over the winter so I would not actually swap the engine until late spring anyways. I have a couple of back up plans if this does not work out. But we still think it will. He has files for other Mercedes computers that are the same idea of what we are trying to do but this one is different and he was getting some new tools to look at other chips on the board.
I have the oil pan figured out with a m104 oil pan and oil pump. Really the engine is identical to the older inline 6 other than the trans bolt pattern. So putting one in is going to be pretty straight forward. It is funny I was just looking at the Black Smoke Racing blog and they were going the other way with the oil pan and pump.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - giorgosktel82 - 12-08-2013
i have seen an additional module doing the job you need but only for suspension controll https://www.arnottindustries.com/part_MERCEDES-BENZ_yid18_pid126.html
you need a module like this but with different coding (giving messages from more controll units)
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 12-08-2013
That is the idea. It really is not all that hard. I have already done most of if not all of the work on this for other projects. Actually I have a dual CAN module that is open source for c c++. Fairly easy to write the CAN messages as a translation for different devices. I will probably not need this though as I will have a specific component that has a more simple tuning software for doing what I need as long as it has enough id positions.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - giorgosktel82 - 12-08-2013
are you going to use the original transmission (722626)
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 12-08-2013
The car already has a 722.6 in it with an om602. I have not decided if I will source a whole transmission or just buy a bellhousing. I will probably get a new transmission as the cost is not much different for a good used one. One way or the other it will be a 722.6. I was really amazed that the om648 has a different bolt pattern than the other Mercedes inline motors. Seems to be the only one. Looks really close until you slide a transmission up to it.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - Ksteen2 - 12-09-2013
my dad has a W211 with a OM648 in it, that thing is cool, and you can buy a chip for 22000 nok or 2500 dollars, and it will have 400hp and 1000nm !
thats dobble the original! :o
and original that car is fast!
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - giorgosktel82 - 12-09-2013
the code of the bellhousing is 2202711301 replaces 2201710001 and it is used with 613 and 648 motors.
the 722.6 controll unit needs can messages from engine for engine speed and accelerator pedal value and for tractions for vehicle speed (except g klasse which has an exteral sensor)to work.
how did you work it?
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 12-10-2013
Right now I have a standalone tcu for the 722.6 that I sell in it. I can use that and probably will to start off with but I plan on integrating the stock tcu with another CAN device. I will use a stock gas pedal or pedal value sensor with the engine management and the engine messages will be there of course with the om648. I will then use this other device to receive analog signals such as wheel speed and translate that to CAN messages the same as the factory does it basically. CAN is all about sending the appropriate message id with the correct info in the correct positions with the correct timing and baud rate. It really is fairly straight forward. I have already decoded the values needed for this and am not expecting really any troubles at all. I have removed various control units from factory cars and simulated or translated CAN messages from one format to the other without to much trouble. Sometimes it is just really a matter of giving some really basic info such as the id and some static values so that the receiving control units do not report any problems.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - majesty78 - 12-11-2013
(12-09-2013, 02:48 AM)Ksteen2 my dad has a W211 with a OM648 in it, that thing is cool, and you can buy a chip for 22000 nok or 2500 dollars, and it will have 400hp and 1000nm !
thats dobble the original! :o
and original that car is fast!
Sure....that's not even achievable with the 313hp 420CDI.With remap only you will see about 265-275hp/650Nm, far away from 400hp/1000Nm
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - giorgosktel82 - 12-11-2013
if you are going to make a device receiving analog signals and and translate them to can i think that the best solution is to use the original mercedes control units because is easier, faster and cheaper.As you said you are going to use original engine control unit.transmission control unit and electronic selector. so you still need abs.ezs.and ki if you use w210 system and if you use 211 you also need mrm and zgw
if you look on ebay you will find the for about 500 euros and i think that they will work better and this systems has more options
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 12-11-2013
The problem with using traction systems is that you need to work out 4 abs sensors and steering angle and yaw etc to work perfectly or it goes into limp. Also using the DAS from an original car requires the ability to get them matched to each other which is possible but then I can not order replacement keys. Believe me it is not going to be cheaper. I am looking at probably around 1500-2000 in computers etc to make this work. I am also not making a control unit to do the CAN messages. It is an existing piece of hardware and really is not very expensive and I am a dealer for the product so it is also a development tool for resale.
Also what I want to do is make this something that can easily be repeated in any vehicle. If I have problems with getting the factory tcu to work then I simply do not need to do this part as I already have a fully functioning tcu.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - mike-81-240d - 12-11-2013
Still use your xenon projector headlights these days?
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 12-11-2013
Yes,
Still working on the final design but they are in and working. I have some final details to work out still and then new lenses.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - mike-81-240d - 12-11-2013
(12-11-2013, 05:01 PM)whipplem104 Yes,
Still working on the final design but they are in and working. I have some final details to work out still and then new lenses.
I remember them in my driveway in like 2010 hahaha.
I gave up on mine due to the flutting. Might try again with US lights instead.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - giorgosktel82 - 12-12-2013
i think that the esp will not work because the dynamic characteristics of two cars are different so the esp will come on without reason but you if will use an asr control unit from 210 you dont need yaw rate sensor and steering angle sensor.
also the selector module needs signals from all wheels for the shift lock function.
2000 costs the whole car.
BUT if you will find a hardware replaces ezs,esp,ki e.t.c you will help a lot of developers and open new ways in conversions.
i am waiting for your news!!!
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 12-12-2013
I am dealing with a w211 chassis in the U.S. In salvage auctions they are bringing North of 7-8,000. The only diesel w210 we had here was with the om606.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - Druk - 12-12-2013
(12-12-2013, 09:06 AM)whipplem104 I am dealing with a w211 chassis in the U.S. In salvage auctions they are bringing North of 7-8,000. The only diesel w210 we had here was with the om606.
Really?
In the UK you can get a low mileage good example drive-away for that. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121218679607?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D121218679607%26_rdc%3D1
.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 12-12-2013
I know it is insane. I joined an auction group before I bought the engine to try and pick up a whole car. You can pretty much just spend a couple more thousand on a complete running car from a private seller. I was even thinking of doing that and parting out the rest of the car but I still would have a hard time buying replacement keys from the factory as you now have to bring the car to the dealer pretty much to get a new key. I use to work at the dealer up till a couple of years ago and it is just insane how hard they have made it to buy a key. Not to mention the price tag.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - giorgosktel82 - 12-12-2013
you can add a used key from ebay to your ezs very easy...
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - AlanMcR - 12-12-2013
Why would that W211 be so cheap in the UK? Our W210 E300 turbo with 235K miles got rear-ended and the insurance company priced it out at over $12K. That prompted them to repair the car at a cost of well over $8K.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - Druk - 12-12-2013
(12-12-2013, 02:57 PM)AlanMcR Why would that W211 be so cheap in the UK? Our W210 E300 turbo with 235K miles got rear-ended and the insurance company priced it out at over $12K. That prompted them to repair the car at a cost of well over $8K.
Dunno, but I've got my beady eye on a 2010 E350 CDi wagon, 1 lady owner, 86.000 FMBSH Designo paint and interior, £17.999 or under $30.000. Lost more than 1/2 new price in depreciation in three years.
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201308068189980/sort/default/usedcars/onesearchad/used%2Cnearlynew%2Cnew/engine-size-cars/3l_to_3-9l/postcode/eh481eu/fuel-type/diesel/model/e_class/radius/1501/transmission/automatic/price-from/8500/body-type/estate/maximum-age/up_to_5_years_old/make/mercedes-benz/price-to/20000/colour/blue/page/1?logcode=p
There's lots more 2003/4 year 320CDi's up for grabs with c180.000miles for under £4000.
.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 05-18-2014
Well I gave up on the guy that was working on recoding the ecu for me. I bought a matched EIS, key, cdi, and steering lock.
I will test these out on a car next week to make sure they are actually all in working order. Then I am planning on putting together a test harness to test start the engine on the stand.
I have been doing a lot of CAN testing. I am nearly 100% on what I need to send to the ecu for full operation. Start message for tip start but not necessary. Could just activate the starter. Then traction data needs to be sent for wheel speed and a few other tid bits to allow full revs on the engine. Neutral safety from the tcu and a few other things that I have already implemented from other projects and that is about it. The emulation that I am doing will work with the PCS tcu for the 722.6 application and with some small changes will work with a standard transmission.
Once it is all up and running. I will start working on getting rid of the EIS and key again. Or if possible to somehow do replacements.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - Druk - 05-18-2014
There's guys on here who have bypassed the EIS in the ECU for the 606.962 engine from the W210. Whilst it's not a CDi engine the EIS and DAS is the same possibly and what they did may work for you. .
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 05-18-2014
Doing it on a om606 ecu is a completely different thing. Actually anything previous to my2000 with me2.8 or the newer gen ecus in general are a lot easier. The das authorization message is not encrypted and you can do a few other things to get around it. The newer stuff is just completely different. I will get there eventually.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 05-19-2014
Thought I would post this up to show what we are trying to overcome. This is one type of authentication process. I do not know for sure if this is the exact same. From what I have seen on the CAN BUS I do not think that the original message is transmitted. Just the Hash. The ecu then just compares the hash.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Message_authentication_code
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - merc mek - 08-05-2014
Does anyone have any experience on a aftermarket ECU om a CDI engine?
http://www.adaptronic.nl/home/ecu-and-turbo-information/diesel-ecu-system
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 08-07-2014
Other than Bosch to my knowledge the others such as mentioned are using modified units running a more gasoline injection strategy. They work but are crude compared to the volume injection strategy used by the OE and Bosch which is basically the same thing. They are also some serious money and no matter what are never going to be at the same level as factory as with any aftermarket injection. The factory uses a total volume target strategy that is a combination of rail pressure control and injector opening. With a pre injection and main injection on the older engines that merges into a single main injection at higher rpms. The calculated volume is then trimmed per cylinder based on the rate of acceleration of the crank per cylinder.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 09-21-2014
Little update.
Finally got the cdi, eis, esl, all wired up on the desk. I am getting the start signal from the cdi for the starter relay. And I can measure the CAN bus. There is a timing event on power up that must happen with these. If you power everything up and do not turn the key on soon then the DAS message will not transmit. I am going to rewire so the CDI powers up the same way as in the car and see if that changes.
Also I have confirmed the CAN message that is stating from cdi that authorization has been given and that it is in the released state.
This will help with the next step as I will not have to have a diagnostic computer hooked up to check authorization or not. Excited to be at this stage. I also have been working on what exactly I have to transmit to get this thing to operate freely without all the other computers.
I did some testing and it seems that simply transmitting the wheel speed data and a couple of other things and the ecus gas or diesel will rev up past the soft limiter. These can be static values. I plan on having the data be live as I am hopefully going to have cruise control as well.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - whipplem104 - 11-25-2015
Fired up my engine today on a test stand. Just my laptop and the eis, esl, cdi module. Starts and runs. Need to get some stuff put together further to run it for real but getting closer. Also going to be experimenting with virgin ecu and the marriage process. Will record what happens during these processes to see if it is possible to just emulate the eis messages with a new password loaded to the ecu.
RE: OM648 swap into a w123 - TKMad - 11-25-2015
Sweet! Looking forward to seeing your progress!