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+--- Thread: 4-speed swap (/showthread.php?tid=4269)
4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 01-16-2013
Alrighty folks so as some of you may or may not know, I have been planning a 4-speed swap for the daily driver and have been collecting parts for a while. Off the top of my head the things I have collected so far are:
-240D 4-speed (came out of a car with a 617, so linkages are correct length)
-240D driveshaft
-240D clutch/brake pedal assembly
-300D flywheel, as well as two 240D flywheels
-two pressure plates
-two clutch discs, one new one slightly used
-new (I believe they're new anyway) throwout and pilot bearings
-240D auto transmission mount/crossmember
-one frozen 240D 4-speed shifter
SO I guess the things I still need (correct me if I am wrong) are:
-a not frozen 4-speed shifter
-new flywheel to crank bolts (I believe part no. 6150320571)
-pressure plate to flywheel bolts (unknown part number)
-new center driveshaft bearing
-assorted lines for the clutch
-flex discs (thinking about getting some aluminum or stainless discs machined with urethane bushings pressed in, any thoughts on this?)
Is there anything else I'm missing? Everything else about the swap seems pretty straight forward, just swap pedal assemblies, shifter, pull old trans out, put on correct flywheel with clutch and pressure plate, bolt new transmission on, connect clutch lines and bleed them and that's it in a nutshell right?
I'll post some pictures up this weekend of everything I have so far. I'm planning on doing the swap some time in the next month or so, as soon as I get my w116 roadworthy enough to drive while the w123 is down for a little bit.
Thanks folks!!
RE: 4-speed swap - raysorenson - 01-16-2013
I used a new M.B. brake master cylinder reservoir to clutch master cylinder hose. It give a nice stock look under the hood, it's affordable and it works well. Make sure you price the other hydraulic lines from M.B. before fabbing.
Some of the FW bolts can be re-used, some can't. The good bolts vs. the bad bolts becomes very apparent when you torque/angle them to WSM specs. The bad ones feel like mushy rubber bands. If you've got a bunch of used bolts and confidence in your judgement, I recommend re-using them.
Mark the orientation of the flex plate when you take it off and verify that it has neutral balance. Make sure that any flywheel you put back on is neutral balance as well. I suggest using the lightest flywheel you have.
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 01-17-2013
What is this flex plate you speak of? And also, what will the difference be between using the 28lb flywheel and the 38lb one? Also, I just plan on using all new bolts, since it just seems easier
Does anybody know the part numbers for the hydraulic lines? I plan on making a trip to the Mercedes stealership within the next week or so to pick up/order the bolts, hydraulic lines, and any other small bits I need, as well as front/back windshield seals for my w116
RE: 4-speed swap - charmalu - 01-17-2013
I assume this swap is for your 82 300D?
Use the 38# FW not the 240D lighter 28# FW. Iam using a 240D FW when I did the swap on my 85, have some vibration mostly in 4th if I drop below a certain RPM.
I did source a 617 FW November a yr ago in the Carson City PNP. looked for 3 yrs for one, found it in a 81 Grey Mkt car. It was almost perfect condition. I have the engine out for another problem, and this FW is going on.
I would use new FW bolts, they are torque to yield. There is a specification in the FSM for measuring the neck on used one`s. sure don`t want one breaking after it is all together.
The Flex Plate is the auto FW, there should be a mark on the Crank and the plate for a reference point when remounting it for balance. check to see if there is one, if not mark both. then have the manual FW matched balanced to the auto one.
You should be good to go as you have all the parts off the other 617 set up. Driveline, and the shifter rods all the correct length.
If you are using the 82`s rear section of the DL then might be a good idea to have it balanced. Check the U-Joint and the center Support bearing while you are at it. I had the DL just done one the 240 and it was $300 at South Bay Drive Line in San Jose.
Here is the part# for the Clutch Line from the dealer. comes as a straight piece with the hose crimped on. 123 295 17 13. was $65.33 back in March 09.
Charlie
RE: 4-speed swap - JB3 - 01-17-2013
dont forget to jump the "not in park safety bypass" switch wiring that used to connect to the auto tranny!
If you don't, it wont start, and after all your work, you will be pretty annoyed to jump in for the first spin, and no crank.
I believe that the wire colors were purple and purple/white, but I know the info is on this forum somewhere. Better to verify.
The reverse light wires also need to be run back up to the stick handle.
The FW bolts are I believe stretch for the automatic application, and non stretch for the manual application, the bolts are hugely different, so one cant be used for the other. The manual bolts will be needed to bolt a manual flywheel.
The 38lb flywheel is rare enough that I wouldn't even bother honestly. The big thing is to match balance between the removed driven plate/flex plate from the auto application, and the manual flywheel you intend to install.
There are certain numbers of the 5cyl that the engine balance was made up for in the auto flywheel, and if you have one of these, and do not match balance, you could have vibration.
Recently working on my manual flywheel to put behind a turbo 617 for my 115 chassis, I discovered that the engine I had sourced did NOT have a neutral balance on the auto flywheel, so I marked with the crank and match balanced. More bother on the front end, but worth it just in case.
x2 on charlie's clutch line part number price, I did find that the two part clutch line one piece was NLA. I used regular brake line. If you want to save money, you can build the whole clutch hydraulic line out of 3 pieces of brake line, two hard, and one flex piece worst case if you don't want to pay MB inordinate amounts of money.
At one point I used a stainless steel braided flex line and routed it under the transmission instead of over, which also worked and eliminated the tight bend that the flex line is making in stock applications
good luck! you will love this swap!
EDIT-
good info in this thread-
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-851.html?highlight=every+single+thing
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 01-17-2013
Yup its for the '82
Yup I didn't forget about the neutral safety switch!
So would I just be better off buying a bunch of brake line, and if so how much/what size should I get?
And yup I have that thread bookmarked on my computer and phone lol
RE: 4-speed swap - w123love - 01-17-2013
You’ll want new FW bolts. #1 you’ll most likely round the heads off of a couple. #2 you shouldn’t re use them.
RE: 4-speed swap - Simpler=Better - 01-17-2013
Just get some ikea bolts and use loctite. The 250# of torque spinning 40lbs of metal at 5,000rpm isn't really much of a big deal.
RE: 4-speed swap - lpumb3 - 01-26-2013
how would one cross reference the engine numbers to find whether or not there motor was mad with a balanced fflex plate . im putting a manual behind a motor that was auto .in a 83 sd
?
RE: 4-speed swap - charmalu - 01-27-2013
I haven`t seen a cross reference that shows what engines were balanced and what one`s were not. I have read the FW is balanced with the crank as a assy, and that some Fw`s are neutraly balanced.
Your best bet, is to see if there is a match mark on the crank and the Auto Fw fefore you remove it. If not make a mark with a chisle.
Then take the Manual FW and Auto FW to a shop that understands that you want the Manual FW matched exactly to the balance of the Auto FW. then have them mark the Manual FW so you have a reference mark to line up with the Crank.
Charlie
RE: 4-speed swap - lpumb3 - 01-27-2013
i dig it thanks charlie . the motor shop i rely on lets me wander around with the part , they know what im usually up to since i worked there BITD. thanks for the advice . it shall be done
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 02-01-2013
Bought my flywheel bolts, like an idiot I forgot to get bolts for the clutch plate while I was at Mercedes Benz lol
Just waiting on a 4-speed shifter to come in the mail and then I should be good to go, after I pick up some brake/clutch line anyway
RE: 4-speed swap - Simpler=Better - 02-01-2013
(02-01-2013, 12:58 AM)sassparilla_kid Bought my flywheel bolts, like an idiot I forgot to get bolts for the clutch plate while I was at Mercedes Benz lol
Just waiting on a 4-speed shifter to come in the mail and then I should be good to go, after I pick up some brake/clutch line anyway
The PP bolts can be replaced by metric high grade bolts (10.9?) with locktite. I plan on going that route for my setup. Rational? If 6x grade8 bolts can hold a 36#flywheel on a 300HP SBC, 12 equally strong bolts should be able to hold a 38# flywheel on a 617.
RE: 4-speed swap - w123love - 02-01-2013
I picked up my high grade allen bolts for the pressure plate at ace hardware.
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 02-01-2013
Gah fuck I only got 10 bolts, looks like I have to go back regardless
RE: 4-speed swap - TheDon - 02-02-2013
Have you tried rebuilding the frozen shifter? I rebuilt a very sloppy shifter and it's perfect now.
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 02-02-2013
I might re-build it for a future project, in the meantime I've gotten another shifter to use
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 02-03-2013
So I layed out everything I have for the swap a little bit ago to figure out what all I have and still need to get. I thought I had them but it looks like I need to grab some throwout and pilot bearings. I also need clutch bolts, shifter bushings, and a driveshaft center bearing. So can anybody tell me if I can change the center support bearing myself or do I need to take it to a driveline shop or something?
Thanks
RE: 4-speed swap - TheDon - 02-09-2013
I believe there is a write up on the peachy place
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 02-09-2013
Awesome
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 03-12-2013
Who knows the thread pattern and bolt length of pressure plate bolts? Thanks
RE: 4-speed swap - w123love - 03-13-2013
I forgot. I got them at ACE Hardware. Maybe M10? I got stainless ones that were a 10.9 rating. Take the FW and PP with you to ace and try it out. My suggestion.
RE: 4-speed swap - Austincarnut - 03-13-2013
(01-17-2013, 01:49 PM)w123love You’ll want new FW bolts. #1 you’ll most likely round the heads off of a couple. #2 you shouldn’t re use them.
if you know your tools and make sure you don't use some ching chong socket, your bolts will be fine. I have a big stash of swap parts if you are missing something
RE: 4-speed swap - Kozuka - 03-14-2013
My advice after doing this swap myself, when take off the auto flywheel witness mark it & make sure you go beyond the stupid ring that's on the auto flywheel. I almost had a major problem when I took mine to the machine shop and they took off the ring without taking notice of the mark I had made. They will be resistant to the idea of it being matched balanced, show you some chevy stuff that they have to match balance. Make sure they do it and you make it real clear. The flywheel bolts are stretch bolts and are ment to be tightened with a torque wrench then torqued around an extra half a turn. I had to deal with the 85 engine pilot bearing crap, but remember the transmission will just 'slide' in if everything is correct.
For the hard line for the clutch slave cylinder I just went to autozone dug through there brake line selection found the one with the right fittings and length, just fed it in there from the transmission side and bent it by hand. It was cheap like $5.
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 06-02-2013
In the midst of this swap, how do I connect a line to the damn master cylinder? If I wasn't an idiot I would have figured it out before I put the pedal assembly in the car three months ago
RE: 4-speed swap - JB3 - 06-02-2013
(06-02-2013, 03:25 PM)sassparilla_kid In the midst of this swap, how do I connect a line to the damn master cylinder? If I wasn't an idiot I would have figured it out before I put the pedal assembly in the car three months ago
There is a nearly unobtanium plastic elbow that is press fit into that rubber port on the master. If you don't have that from a donor car I suggest taking the master to home depot and finding some plastic plumbing line that fits well enough. There is no pressure on the line apart from drip leaking. I've seen a small piece of plastic pipe bent to the 90. The 90 degree is the big thing, makes it way easier to connect the reservoir line.
RE: 4-speed swap - poleshady - 07-05-2013
pulled my engine today,for the swap, the bolts from the manual engine are on the right, and the bolts that i ordered are on the left. obviously two different lengths, and no necking ( or dog bone) on the manual bolt. i dont want to spend anothe 100 bucks in bolts. or do i have to?
RE: 4-speed swap - JB3 - 07-06-2013
You need 12 of the manual flywheel bolts. Can't use the automatic bolts, or they will bottom out on the upper pan or block with the manual flywheel. You can reuse the manual bolts though.
Can you return or exchange the 12 bolts you bought? If not put them in the for sale section, someone might neet them, I believe they are stretch bolts with a limited lifespan for reuse
RE: 4-speed swap - poleshady - 07-06-2013
ok thanks, i have someone here that will probably buy them.
i think its an 85 engine that i will be putting in, ( i got it from a guy, it was out of the car, and the car had been wrecked and didnt know what year it was)
but i have read that the pilot bearing is too large and i need to open up the hole in the engine. also what is that looks like a washer or a cover infront of the pilot bearing? there is a gap there, is that distance important?
RE: 4-speed swap - JB3 - 07-06-2013
(07-06-2013, 03:04 PM)poleshady ok thanks, i have someone here that will probably buy them.
i think its an 85 engine that i will be putting in, ( i got it from a guy, it was out of the car, and the car had been wrecked and didnt know what year it was)
but i have read that the pilot bearing is too large and i need to open up the hole in the engine. also what is that looks like a washer or a cover infront of the pilot bearing? there is a gap there, is that distance important?
Need a pic of the washer or cover to know what you are referring to, sounds weird.
The pilot bearing can seat in the end of the crank where its tapped in flush with the end of the bore where that champher is.
People have froze the bearing and tapped it in, also I believe winmutt actually lightly ground the outside of a bearing so it would fit. Still others have used another application bearing and machined a sleeve. Its really close, but just a little too tight. The bearings are cheap, id try a light grinding as easiest simplest
RE: 4-speed swap - poleshady - 07-06-2013
(07-06-2013, 03:57 PM)JB3(07-06-2013, 03:04 PM)poleshady ok thanks, i have someone here that will probably buy them.
i think its an 85 engine that i will be putting in, ( i got it from a guy, it was out of the car, and the car had been wrecked and didnt know what year it was)
but i have read that the pilot bearing is too large and i need to open up the hole in the engine. also what is that looks like a washer or a cover infront of the pilot bearing? there is a gap there, is that distance important?
Need a pic of the washer or cover to know what you are referring to, sounds weird.
The pilot bearing can seat in the end of the crank where its tapped in flush with the end of the bore where that champher is.
People have froze the bearing and tapped it in, also I believe winmutt actually lightly ground the outside of a bearing so it would fit. Still others have used another application bearing and machined a sleeve. Its really close, but just a little too tight. The bearings are cheap, id try a light grinding as easiest simplest
by a light grinding, did he just use a file or a bench grinder? cause thats all i have, no fancy machine shop.
here are a couple pictures of what im talking about, hopefully its normal, but i dont know what normal is since this is my first attempt at it
RE: 4-speed swap - JB3 - 07-07-2013
Now thats interesting. This is already in the crank of your 85 motor? Or is this a pilot bearing you are removing from a donor engine?
I've never seen any that looked quite like that, could just be the design of that particular bearing. New pilot bearings don't look like that, but they occupy the same space. If that's a separate piece, you don't need it, if its part of an old pilot bearing, a new one is built differently but functions the same.
I its just some kind of plug and no bearing at all behind it, then you will have to remove it and replace with an actual pilot bearing.
If that's a bearing already in the crank of the 85 motor and turns ok, then you may be able to just use that.
I'm not sure exactly how winmutt ground his bearing, but I gathered he used a bench grinder or similar, but I would PM him and ask what his method was
RE: 4-speed swap - poleshady - 07-07-2013
this is in the 84 euro NA engine. the 85 is what i will be putting the pilot bearing in, ok so ill just have to wair and see what parts i get in the mail. what has to be done to remove that rear flange? would it be worth it to just transfer it over to the new engine?
RE: 4-speed swap - JB3 - 07-07-2013
(07-07-2013, 02:36 PM)poleshady this is in the 84 euro NA engine. the 85 is what i will be putting the pilot bearing in, ok so ill just have to wair and see what parts i get in the mail. what has to be done to remove that rear flange? would it be worth it to just transfer it over to the new engine?
The flange is machined into the crank. One piece, cannot be removed unless you remove the crankshaft itself.
RE: 4-speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 07-07-2013
Almost finished with the swap! I'll admit I had to do some very unorthodox things to get it to work out but I think it will, I just need to bleed the clutch, jump the neutral safety wires and connect the reverse lights, and then figure out if I want to buy or machine new bushings for the shift linkages because the ones I have are wrong